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He’s about to find out what Unions are capable of with he threats of sacking people for no reason, he even made departments up to try get his fans on board.
Thinking about that - I wonder if the threats against people working on climate change and ‘DEI’ were really aimed at his US/overseas base (which IIRC is an important source of funding/speaking gigs) rather than the UK electorate?
Here’s hoping that now they’re responsible for actually making some decisions that actually effect peoples lives, that they’ll now be held up to the same scrutiny as the other political parties.
Very likely I would have thought, with responsibility comes accountability, something which Farage uniquely among party leaders has up until now been spared.
I believe that as a baggage-free party leader, combined with an electorate desperate for something fresh and new, that Farage was in a strong position to become UK prime minister in 2029.
Farage might yet rue the day that Reform won control of six councils and scuppered his long-term political ambitions.
His other obvious vulnerability is his perceived closeness to Donald Trump. It is a vulnerability which his political opponents should be exploiting mercilessly and which he himself has apparently recognised
The findings may explain why Reform leader Nigel Farage – a close ally of Trump – has become noticeably more critical of the president in recent weeks.
Edit. : Blimey, I need to keep more up to date with the news, I've just seen that Reform now control 10 councils, ffs.
Still, I guess this just increases their exposure to accountability. Winning one or more parliamentary seats does nothing to increase their accountability but winning control of 10 councils certainly does.
ChrisMac - you must be in the same county as me - Kent?
It is a dire situation, but hopefully people will see they have little policy other than what is popular enough to get them elected. Implementing them will be very difficult I think & hope.
He will not be able to handle the pressure....have you seen his reactions to awkward questions? He will step aside at a time when he realizes he ( and his party ) is out of its depth but ride the wave as long as he can.
Who knew that the Special Air Service are known for financial acumen and auditing skills?
Richard Tice knows!
“So what I’m saying is, we need to adopt a SAS-style approach to this. We’ve got to save money.
I feel strangely, and patriotically, reassured.
I'm in Kent.
I'm fully expecting plenty of Reform infighting, corruption, social media/ sexual revelations being outed and resignations/sackings to occur.
Apparently they are going to "send in auditors**" to see where the money has gone and rid Kent CC of "wokery".
I'm really pleased by that. The wokery in KCC really keeps me up at night. It's a huge concern. It really is.
Anyway. Labour really need to change direction now. As the Beeb reported one dispondent Labour MP as saying, "we need to be more Labour."
I totally agree. There is time for Labour to turn this around. The Tories are defunct and Reform are a one policy pony trying to be the British MAGA. Hopefully this focuses minds in the Labour party. I don't mind hard decisions being made, I just want to see the party heading in the right direction as it does so.
**Right out of the DOGE playbook.
Labour were elected in at the last election as people felt like Tories were ruining the country. All Labour had to do was make people feel life was getting better or at least make people feel like things were going to get better soon. They just needed the be different to The Conservatives.
And quite simply they haven’t.
They've talked about immigration, about benefits and about trans rights, which is exactly what the Tories were doing before the them. So people think they’re one and the same.
And so people think that maybe Reform will offer something different, whatever that different is.
Now that they’re actually running some councils, their schtick of ‘everything would be fine if it weren’t for all this wokery’ is quickly going to be exposed for the utter cobblers that it is.
Just like Trump in America, it’s all very amusing mocking positive affirmation schemes for blind lesbians, or whatever other shit you just made up, but that’s not going to plug the gaping hole in your accounts.
Now that they’re actually running some councils, their schtick of ‘everything would be fine if it weren’t for all this wokery’ is quickly going to be exposed for the utter cobblers that it is.
I am sure there is a lot of money to be made 'Reforming' all these failed councils.
All that money they were short of, that was just bad leadership, bad budgeting and a bad attitude.
What those councils really needed, was a strong hand on the tiller.
Oh,and to stop moaning all the time, about having to do more with less.
Sounds like Nige fancies himself as a moral crusader. The language around this doesn’t sound remotely dodgy…
Here in Derbyshire I can't wait to see all that wokery that's been ruining my public services all these years being swept away and a return to the sunlit uplands. Even the last Tory leader of the council made it clear that government funding cuts were the cause of the issues.
Meanwhile MrsMC is wondering if her woke social work job is under threat.
Sprocket says 'Nigel makes an excellent chew toy'... and as a fellow Derbyshire resident, he looks forward to the imminent rooting out of woke bin-men and probably the end of recycling as we know it. Cos, you know, climate change is just a myth.
He said the party's mission was to "remoralise" the youth
Nice. Reform are now the British Taliban.
Essentially, Reform is now that old bloke sat at the bar, reading the Sun, tutting and saying “bloody kids nowadays, eh?”
Actually, when you think about like that, it’s no wonder they’ve effectively replaced the Tories. That’s their core demographic
I expect we’ll be hearing a lot more about how they’d all actually be able to afford their own homes if they gave up their smashed avocado on toast and Netflix subscriptions
Reform might have been that old bloke sat at the bar before but it isn't anyone, it's now about a quarter of voters.
3O% on Thursday.
Interesting Sky pic up above. Three women and one poor fool who hasn't realised he's in the wrong room.
Reform might have been that old bloke sat at the bar before but it isn't anyone, it's now about a quarter of voters.
3O% on Thursday.
And that genuinely worries me. I'm desperately hoping that they start to demonstrate their lack of concrete ideas now they have some power, but I can see they will turn the blame on the Labour government for lack of funding (not unreasonably) and that will just empower their bandwagon.
Ripping up the stupid financial rules to start to fund improvements to local authority services would either show that any old party can do better with proper tax and spend, or give Reform enough financial rope to hang themselves.
Calling out shit like "remoralise" will also help.
Another Derbyshire resident here. The thing that really hit home about reform was one of their new mayors saying that anyone working in the council on woke stuff i.e. inclusion or working from home needs to start looking for a new job. Although interestingly in the same statement they said they were focusing on SEND?
Mrs jeffl works in a school and is now utterly pissed of that here employer is reform. I've suggested she does as little as possible (work to rule) but apparently that will disproportionately affect the kids.
I don't think that Reform replacing the Tory party is going to change much. If you're objective about what the Tories did while in power it went beyond what pre-2016 Farage was proposing. It strikes me that Reform is just the Tory party without the token immigration background alibi cabinet members and leaders. If I conformed to the stereoypical Tory voter profile I'd be outraged with the choices of recent leaders and cabinet members who do seem a bit incongruous in that bastion of Englishness that is the Tory party and jumping ship to Reform too. Reform is just the Tory party without any pretence of being inclusive.
What is heartening is that the left/center left combined isn't doing too badly. Sure Labour is losing a bit but the Lib Dems and Greens are picking up those votes. I don't see that the right/left balance has changed much, it's just that the right is being properly hard right without complex.
Forgot to say, I've been trying to work out how to be as annoying as possible to our new elected reform council. Shame you can go to jail for not paying your council tax. I suppose I'll just have to write lots of letters to them moaning about things.
Lots of people better educated than me have drawn parallels with Germany in the 1930s, but I am starting to worry about the next general election.
I don't see that the right/left balance has changed much
I am generally quite optimistic when it comes to politics, certainly more so than much of the doom and gloom which is often expressed on STW threads, but I am struggling at the moment.
If you are suggesting that there isn't much difference between Kemi Badenoch's Tory Party and Nigel Farage's Reform party then the situation is still dire, their combined vote is very close to 50%, far far more than the Tories could ever dream to achieve.
And the suggestion that Labour, the LibDems, and Greens, together provide an effective counterbalance is unconvincing imo.
Not much more than a fag paper might separate Kemi Badenoch and Nigel Farage but there are huge gulfs between Labour, the LibDems, and the Greens.
I think it is safe to say that under Starmer so-called Labour is now much closer to the Tories than they are to the Greens.
Reform might have been that old bloke sat at the bar before but it isn't anyone, it's now about a quarter of voters.
3O% on Thursday.
It's not 30% of the electorate though, it's 30% of the 25% that vote, so a tiny number of highly motivated people. Their support amongst the general population is probably quite low. Doesn't help much, but worth bearing in mind that apathy is far more popular than the populists.
It's not 30% of the electorate though, it's 30% of the 25% that vote, so a tiny number of highly motivated people.
I don't think you can be that dismissive. Yougov polls also show significant support, and that obviously captures the opinions of those that will not bother the vote too.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/voting-intention?
If you play around with the filters it shows what you'd expect.....Reform way more popular with wrinkly than the youth and more popular with men than women. So the Victor Meldrew persona is still a good caricature of a Reform voter. Sadly no matter how quickly as they shuffle along and out of god's waiting room then next bunch get twisted to think the same way. And also frustratingly good (and with plenty of free time on their hands) at making it to the voting booth.
It's a still an odd one - a party that has a message such as it is about being for the voter tired of the same old parties and the need for change being most popular with those who to be frank have so little time left on the planet they shouldn't be giving too much of a toss. It's the younguns that have the most life left and should care about the next 40-50 years way way more. I suppose the reform party message is a bit more nuanced - it's giving people arguably left behind by modern change and acceptance (with the strap line 'woke') and who like to make sweeping generalisations with phrases like 'these days' at a time in their lives when they are no longer the generation in charge and a place to coalesce and have a good moan. Reform and Farage is a party for the moaners who no longer understand the world around them - don't have a plan or to be blunt even care there is a plan for what could work - it's good enough to register that you don't like what the world is becoming and your part in it.
He said the party's mission was to "remoralise" the youth
Nice. Reform are now the British Taliban.
Isn't this just another "back to basics" (Major iirc) and "Victorian values" (Thatcher and some others)?
@convert That's an interesting take on our country, what sort of age are you considering that you feel people are irrelevant and past their sell by date ?
I ask as someone who will be 70 this year , still mountain biking regularly as well as swimming, walking Tai Chi etc , I don't think I'm irrelevant or past my sell by date and find generalisations like that only serve to fuel the old V young argument
I hasten to add I'm not a Farage fan not by a long shot but I still think I'm allowed to have a view / opinion I just don't feel the need to discuss them with strangers.
@oldfart I'm 53. And to be honest I'd say I am at the tipping point into irrelevance.
I don't think it needs to be taken personally or as a personal slight. At my age more and more people in positions of power (both in my own life, like line managers or nationally like government ministers) are now younger than me. In the military the phrase is 'passed over' used for officers not considered suitable for higher rank who see their subordinates leap frog them in seniority and they spend the rest of their careers marking time. It's also the age where a lot of us are no longer looking to 'make a difference' and prioritise mountain biking or something for themselves. The younger generations begin to take the lead in terms of shaping the direction society is travelling. More and more I can hear myself becoming that frustrating older middle aged bloke that says things like 'well, we've been here before but back then we......'. and annoyed the hell out of me when I was in my early 30s. At my age and older you see yourself reflected less in people of influence in society at large. I'd go further - as a white straight male in my 2nd half century I see less and less of 'me' in positions of influence and (thankfully) the world has moved on with women, bame and LGBTQ nudging white, male and stales out of having ALL the top jobs. I see this as good - my Reform voting doppelganger would lash out with 'woke' name calling.
Also - at your age (and mine) there is way way more life behind us and ahead of us - just biology. It take someone with a significant alturistic streak to care about the world we will never see than a youngster with 50 years of working life ahead of them.
That's what I mean by irrelevant. We just are less relevant to the future of society, the work place and the planet than we once were. And this is good and the way it should be.
I see Reform as mostly a party for the passed over. Frustrated of Croydon, who no longer recognises himself in those with power or understands the culture that's grown under him.
This won't just disappear. We need to do something.
So leave here for 5 minutes , join a party and volunteer
If you don't like politicians , sign up to Led by donkeys or Good Law project.
Do something proactive and take the fight to the fascists.
It's not 30% of the electorate though, it's 30% of the 25% that vote, so a tiny number of highly motivated people. Their support amongst the general population is probably quite low.
I am afraid that it isn't 'a tiny number', it is a huge number. In last July's general election Reform recieved 4 million votes, half a million more than the LibDems, since then their support has almost doubled, something that Thursday's elections confirmed.
If you want to call Reform's 30% share of the vote tiny what do you want to call Labour's 20% share........ miniscule?
I think the biggest issue with Reform at council level is they will be getting tons of airtime, every problem at a council will end up with Reform all over the news blaming it on woke,climate or immigration.
Dont forget as an MEP old Nige would go off on one on things not relevant to the discussion just to get a video of him telling it as it is 🙁
What is it 4 years to go and they are on 30% plenty of time for them to keep on spreading what people want to hear.
I'm 53. And to be honest I'd say I am at the tipping point into irrelevance.
I don't think it needs to be taken personally or as a personal slight. At my age more and more people in positions of power (both in my own life, like line managers or nationally like government ministers) are now younger than me.
Farage is 61 Trump is 78, Brexit was pushed over the touch line by the oldies.
Old people are really dangerous 🙂
Are we still pushing that old chestnut? The far-right has been experiencing growing support from young people not just in the UK but across Europe and the United States :
Edit : I particularly liked this btw :
“The two parties that have been in power for 100-plus years have done nothing"
He is obviously shit-hot on history if he believes nothing has been done since 1925
What's the political equivalent of ’full enduro'?
I’m targeting Converts ‘tipping into irrelevance’ not that the far right is oldies 🙂
Why would youngsters vote for anyone other than Farage,he’s offering change(?) as opposed to more of the same.
Selling magic beans is waaay easier than selling truth.
Who knew that the Special Air Service are known for financial acumen and auditing skills?
Nah he means Southern Accounting Services. A company I was honoured to work for and provides the finest possible financial services. The motto was "Who dares to fudge the numbers wins the contract".
Admittedly there were a few blips when online dating and I mentioned my years of service in the SAS and the difficult assignments I had completed. For some reason when we met face to face they seemed...disappointed especially when I elaborated on how important a pocket protector was when the choice of pens was substandard.
For some reason when we met face to face they seemed...disappointed especially when I elaborated on how important a pocket protector was when the choice of pens was substandard.
I am hardly surprised.
Have you considered a career change?
So what have far-right politicians in France and Scandinavia got that UK far-right politicians in the UK haven't.......more direct neo-nazis links?
Edit. : Btw I wouldn't mention that you are leaving the UK because of Nigel Farage in your immigration application, they might consider you as an asylum seeker, which wouldn't help.
What is it 4 years to go and they are on 30% plenty of time for them to keep on spreading what people want to hear.
Damn fine idea, better quality of life, better health service, better housing, better everything really?.
Damn fine idea, better quality of life, better health service, better housing, better everything really?.
Hmmm, same issues with the right thou and as an immigrant they may not welcome you with open arms in 4 years time,taking advantage of their jobs housing and health care.
And not that I want to bang on about Brexit but , if you want to live in Spain (non-working)the post Brexit requirement is
- Financial Resources: Proof of sufficient financial resources is crucial. For an individual, this means having at least €28,800 in savings or income from passive sources. For married couples, the requirement is €36,000, and for a family of four, it is €50,400. These figures are reviewed annually and adjusted for inflation. *these figures are correct at the time of publishing (June 2024)
- The NLV is initially granted for one year. Upon renewal, the visa extends for two years. During the renewal process, applicants must again prove they have sufficient financial resources. It’s essential to plan finances carefully, ensuring continuous eligibility for the visa.
- Health Insurance: Applicants of retirement age can apply for form S1 to access the Spanish healthcare system. Those under retirement age must have private medical insurance. After one year of residency and being registered on the local census (Padron), non-retirees can switch to the Spanish healthcare system using the Convenio Especial and paying a monthly fee.
I’ve heard that they want to see double those numbers for the second year(escape from the U.K. is only for those with money or an Irish passport which will drop the € numbers significantly)
Damn fine idea, better quality of life, better health service, better housing, better everything really?.
Hmmm, same issues with the right thou and as an immigrant they may not welcome you with open arms in 4 years time,taking advantage of their jobs housing and health care.
Very true
and calling for the return of nationalised heavy industry, coal mining and oil and gas extraction.
Remind me, where was this being reported from? Washington DC, or Washington Tyne and Wear?
Hmmm, same issues with the right thou and as an immigrant they may not welcome you with open arms in 4 years time, taking advantage of their jobs housing and health care.
Swedish resident and, since last year, citizen.
Brexit is a running joke over here and the Swedes, for the most part, get the joke. I occasionally get asked if I came as an asylum seeker, but almost always with a glint in the eye and a smile on the face.
As for the problems... Yes, the same ones are here. SD are one of the larger parties here and chose to control the "Right" coalition rather than do something that would mean they take responsibility for things. The mask is fading though and people are slowly realising (I think) that they are just shit. Links to true neo-nazism in the party are strong (and accurate) and they have form for running troll factories and (allegedly) being paid by the Russians. BUTT... the message they propagate resonates with people and they get votes.
On other topics: Yes, we have an excellent healthcare system and school system, but the feeling I have is that the "Right" coalition are trying very hard to push both into the same shitshow of privitisation as the UK tried (and failed) to do.
I can't answer for Norway, Finland or Denmark, but I don't think they will be much different just slightly more expensive to live in (Norway), colder (Finland) and flatter with a terrible accent (Denmark).
4 years to figure out how to move to France or a Scandic country.
Unless you're rich, you've probably left it a bit late.
Can we be optimistic that Farage won't be healthy enough to be PM in 4 years? He will be mid 60's by then. He is a drinker and smoker and, I assume, carries a degree of stress in his furious outlook on life. Reform seems to depend entirely on Farage as being the engaging figurehead. Can they perform without him?
Can we be optimistic that Farage won't be healthy enough to be PM in 4 years? He will be mid 60's by then. He is a drinker and smoker and, I assume, carries a degree of stress in his furious outlook on life
Unfortunately, only the good die young.
My only comment. Nige gets enough media time on every platform do we have to have this tosser on SingleTrack, too! 😉
JeZ
If you want to discuss UK politics the answer is yes, very much so.
Farage is absolutely critical to the current political dynamics in the UK.
If you want to discuss UK politics the answer is yes, very much so.
Farage is absolutely critical to the current political dynamics in the UK.
Yep. This thread is easy to avoid if you want to.
My only comment. Nige gets enough media time on every platform do we have to have this tosser on SingleTrack, too! 😉
TBH him having his own thread in theory means that most Nige related material ends here so it it’s easier to avoid 🙂
Although since he is effectively ‘Reform’ and they are currently in ascendancy in England/Uk politics he’s splattered all over the place.
I’d get use to it,having all those council seats will give him even more media mischief opportunities and is it 4 years to the election 🙁
England not the UK
🙄🤣
Sadly for Scotland, Farages evil influence has directed some UK policy which also affects you, even if you have control of other aspects.
England not the UK
🙄🤣
It is a shame there isn't a head-in-the-sand emoji which you could use TJ
https://www.survation.com/reform-uk-records-highest-support-ever-in-a-scottish-poll/
England not the UK
Get real. There are more and more people saying they’ll support them here. Unless you are living in a bubble,it is clear they have support here, and gaining votes every day. Why do you think Swinney came out with a big spending plan yesterday? Only a year ago they stopped the peak rail fare promotion, now it is to become permanent, even though a year ago it was a failure and they couldnt afford to fund it any more.
And the doctors, after 20 years they are going to do something about getting more appointments available. What have they been doing for the last 20 years, and now suddenly decide there is money available and Doctors will now have more space for patients? They are very worried, as Reform will be taking their votes, so are chucking out freebies and promises to try to keep their votes.
Unless you are living in a bubble,it is clear they have support here, and gaining votes every day
That's my observation too, but that's localised observations, most often seems to be about immigrants and them being associated with crime.
According to recent Scottish polls I've seen Reform are now easily in front of the Greens and the LibDems and currently level pegging with the Tories.
Unless you are living in a bubble,it is clear they have support here, and gaining votes every day
That's my observation too, but that's localised observations, most often seems to be about immigrants and them being associated with crime.
D&G? Lots of talk around about the immigrants sited at the hotel on the way to New Abbey. Comes up on the FB group regularly.
Unless you are living in a bubble,it is clear they have support here, and gaining votes every day
That's my observation too, but that's localised observations, most often seems to be about immigrants and them being associated with crime.
D&G? Lots of talk around about the immigrants sited at the hotel on the way to New Abbey. Comes up on the FB group regularly.
Never knew we had an immigration centre/hotel in use here in Dumfries & Galloway, I hope there’s not too much grief thrown their way but I imagine there will be a few utter ****s who’ll be posting their shite on crapbook
(Edit : 17 seconds to post above, no wonder I can’t be arsed to get involved with this forum anymore)
Latest election map of the country, reform may get a few votes from the pricks but doubt they’ll see seats in parliament up here
https://bsky.app/profile/electionmaps.uk/post/3lokwthzzwk27
It's also totally unrealistic. I remember pre-general election when there was talk of the Tories being down to a couple of dozen seats, that was never going to happen. Although the polls did correctly predict the Labour landslide victory.
I don't know what percentages the above seat prediction is based on but I can't see the Tories dropping below 19-20%
If there was a general election tomorrow it is quite likely that Reform would get the largest share of the vote, almost all recent opinion polls have put them in front, but Labour and the Tories won't be that far behind.
Obviously absolutely anything is possible, including a LibDem or Green majority government, but it's fairly pointless to dwell on scenarios that won't occur.
Also - up to this point they were a largely theoretical concept of a political party. Now they are in charge of 10 (I think) councils. The **** up potential has increased massively. All those barely background checked elected representatives now in positions of responsibility to fall from grace from. And your average reform voter thinks a lot about the small stuff - like bin collections. All of which is in a local council remit to **** up.
That's 19 seats short of a full house isn't it?
“The justifiable fury that is provoked when people use his statue as a platform for their protests speaks to the deep and enduring love that all decent British people have for Sir Winston.”
What a load of nonsense, I don't have a deep and enduring love for Winston Churchill. He was a racist who among other things was responsible for the needless deaths of 3 million people during the Bengal Famine, and a Tory.
He really does talk shite.
That confirms the quote, Ernie, you're French. 🙂 - unless you've got round to sorting out British nationality since the last time I nagged you about assuring your future in the UK. 😉
Churchill wasn't perfect but I think most us will forgive him his imperfections given his WWII leadership.
He's the best placed Brit in this list and I can't think of anyone I'd place above him.
https://www.thetoptens.com/leaders/important-leaders-history/
Edit: I just asked Madame Edukator the greatest Brit in History (she's got a doctorate in history), the response came back in seconds: Churchill.
That's an "interesting" list...
given his WWII leadership
What do you mean by leadership? He was prime minister, why does he need special credit for that? Great Britain and its Empire wouldn't have fought if it hadn't been for Winston Churchill?
she's got a doctorate in history
So that makes her opinion on who was the greatest Briton in history a fact?
The idea that Churchill was the greatest Briton in history is nonsense based on some sort of bizarre myth that Germany would have defeated Britain had it not been for him.
What about the Queen Mum, gawd bless her? She always had a smile for us during the Blitz. She said that she would never have been able to look Londoners in eye if she had vacated Buckingham Palace. She kept the nation's morale up during a critical time she did. If it hadn't been for her morale boosting smile we would probably have ended up hearing the sound of crunching jackboots down Whitehall.
Churchill wasn't perfect but I think most us will forgive him his imperfections given his WWII leadership.
A lot of working people had very little time for him, hence the 1945 landslide. There were plenty who were old enough to remember his actions during the general strike.
she's got a doctorate in history
So that makes her opinion on who was the greatest Briton in history a fact?
I'd rely on her opinion more than yours regarding his wartime record.
The idea that Churchill was the greatest Briton in history is nonsense based on some sort of bizarre myth that Germany would have defeated Britain had it not been for him.
Going further OT, that reminds me of a piece on psyche.co, it's about Hollywood's focus on the individual...
https://psyche.co/ideas/hollywoods-fixation-on-the-wrong-stories-wont-help-our-world
A lot of working people had very little time for him, hence the 1945 landslide.
Yeah when you read contemporary views on him in the 50-60s its very different from the Christ like figure he has been turned into now. I do think there is a reasonable claim about his wartime leadership being effective especially considering some of those who wanted to make a deal but nowadays I wouldnt be surprised if he was put forward as a saint of the C of E
Going back to Farage something I find odd is how one of their successful lines seems to be providing an alternative to the Labour/Tory duopoly and yet, when we look at their latest mp, we see the common pattern of them being a tory defector.
One of my local Tory councillors is defecting to Reform not because he's right wing but because he's pissed off about broken road signs.
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5238110/fife-councillor-robin-lawson-reform/
some sort of bizarre myth that Germany would have defeated Britain had it not been for him.
Well lets face it, some of the royals were quite admirative of the Nazis and some politicians were very much into appeasement. Churchill did and excellent job of motivating the British population and driving the propaganda machine. Strategicaly he did pretty well too, from memory Greece had some unforeseen (and unforeseeable) consequences but the overall allied strategy of which Churchill was a leading force got the result we all know. If you change the question to best PM as opposed to greatest Brit then I mentioned Attlee on the Starmer thread a couple of days ago, but Churchill was more than just a PM - he convinced a nation to save its arse.
There are very few facts in these rewriting history threads that STW is so good at, just more or less informed opinion. I asked a historian for a spontaneous repsonse and got one, I haven't claimed it as fact, just informed opinion.
If you want to slag off the Axis powers leaders you'll have a much easier time of it than dissing the Allied leaders for fairly obvious reasons. Churchill did well and trying to deny that is not a very easy position to defend however much you distort what people say, put words into their mouths and diss the opinion of someone with a masters from Dijon and doctorate from Brighton, both on aspects of WWII history.
Sometimes I find your contrary views interesting and well thought out, Ernie, here not so much - your "bizarre myth" has more than agrain of truth in it. Like him or not, without Churchill's leadership qualities most of us wouldn't have been born and if we had then we'd have lived in a very different world. Churchill, Stalin, Roosevelt and De Gaulle sat at the victory table and between them defined the world I(we) were born into and have thrived in.
One of my local Tory councillors is defecting to Reform not because he's right wing but because he's pissed off about broken road signs.
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5238110/fife-councillor-robin-lawson-reform/
There’s quite a number of covid deniers, flat earthers, moon mission deniers and vaccine nut jobs up in fife, I say this as I used to know quite a crowd from there till I got pissed of with their tedious bullshit
I'd rely on her opinion more than yours regarding his wartime record.
I have no idea what her opinion on Churchill's wartime record is, just that in her opinion he was greatest Briton in history.
So what was Churchill's wartime record?
Btw the King of England in 1066, didn't he have a more profound effect on British history than Churchill? Nigel Farage has just been elected to an institution which he helped to establish.
Or doesn't he count because he was an illegal immigrant....who arrived on a boat ?
If you look beyond jingoism and rose tinted views of giving the Hun a bloody nose, it's Isaac Newton, fact.
He developed the laws of motion, unifying physics and classical mechanics. He made huge contributions to optics and explained the colour spectrum. He explained gravitation, and then when challenged on why then planets had elliptical orbits had to develop calculus to work out the answer, a mathematical technique that unlocked theoretical understanding of other processes for centuries after. And then he turned 26 and started at Cambridge.....
So what was Churchill's wartime record?
LOL.
And if that was a serious question I think you'll find there's plenty of reading material on the subject. My father-in-law was a Pole who spent WWII on the run, joined the Brits in Italy and was demobbed in the UK but couldn't return to Poland as the soviets were killing returning Poles. He had book cases full of books on the war from various perspectives. If you're really interested you have years of reading material to wade through in your local library.
The king of England in 1066 lost, there's a tapestry about it, not the kind of record that would qualify him for greatest Brit. I'm descended from one of the mob that beat him if my cousin's geaneology research is to be believed so kinda happy he was crap.
An interesting story about your polish father-in-law but I am struggling to see it provides much proof that Churchill was the greatest Briton in history. Personally I think they will still be talking about William Shakespeare and the Victorian era in a couple of centuries time but not so much about Winston Churchill, who was only half British anyway
Good point about William 1st, officially I believe he was King of the English, not King of England.
Btw if we are comparing war records my father was in the Free French. I can't remember him ever saying anything positive about Churchill, or indeed any Tory, although he did respect General de Gaulle as a military leader.
In fact was Charles de Gaulle the greatest Frenchman in history
EDIT:
LOL.And if that was a serious question..
Sorry I should have been more specific. I didn't mean what did Churchill do during the War, I meant what was his wartime record as in how many enemy combatants did he capture or enemy aircraft he was responsible for shooting down, etc. After all it seems to me that many people credit Churchill with defeating Nazi Germany.
Personally I think Nazi Germany lost the war when they invaded the Sudetenlands, irrespective who the British prime minister was.
Personally I think Nazi Germany lost the war when they invaded the Sudetenlands, irrespective who the British prime minister was.
I think you could argue that the minute Hitler was made chancellor war was inevitable but I'm not sure that the outcome was also inevitable. There was an offer on the table for Britain to walk away with control of the empire but give Germany control of Europe and there were members of the British establishment that wanted to take that deal . Churchill for all his other faults saw Hitler for what he was and rallied the country, of course there was a lot more going on but to say any other prime minister would have been able to do the same just isn't true . He was the right man at the right time .
As for historians not caring in a 200 years I don't think that's true at all , world war 2 led on to the cold war , the fall of communism, the rise of Putin etc etc Even look at what is happening today in India , Britain unable to maintain its empire after the war drew a line on a map and 80 years later 2 nuclear powers are squaring up to each other . History is a chain of events and Churchill was a pretty big cog in a pretty big event.
To bring it slightly back to farage and his ilk I find it incredibly depressing when people like him use the war as a campaigning point because as far as I can see people like him have learned none of the lessons from it .