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It's Farage's closeness to trump that marks him out, and should be used to expose and embarrass him in the view of voters.
It’s this that’s going to cost Farage and Reform the most, could well the point in history where they are finished.
Lols
This is why I almost never post on the Ukraine thread.
I fully accept that it is totally impossible to have any sort of discussion on the subject without everything being interpreted in very simple black and white terms.
However whatever the opinions on that particular echo chamber it would appear that the sentiments behind my comment finds traction with a fairly wide audience and Starmer's insistence that Ukraine's NATO membership is inevitable is fanciful nonsense.
As is obviously his apparent belief that British troops can somehow help the situation.
Russia's security concerns need to be addressed
You are Jeremy Corbyn and I claim my signed copy of Joseph Stalin's biography 'It was only a few tens of millions, it should have been more' and the accompanying Seamus Milne book 'Its not like he's Hitler, is it? He wasn't that bad'
You are Jeremy Corbyn
Why Jeremy Corbyn binners? I don't know what Corbyn's views are the issue but I do know that Ukraine will not be joining NATO any time soon. So why do you think that might be, eh?
You can huff and puff as much as you want but at the end of the day this tragic conflict will have a negotiated settlement, unless you think WW3 is a better option, and part of that settlement will include security guarantees for Russia. The idea that there could be a settlement without that is obviously ridiculous.
I'm not sure about your views on the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace but here you are binners, something written by someone who isn't called Jeremy Corbyn making the point :
Neutrality: An Alternative to Ukraine’s Membership in NATO
https://www.cfr.org/article/neutrality-alternative-ukraines-membership-nato
"The prospect of long-term Ukrainian neutrality after the war could bring Russia to the table."
As is obviously his apparent belief that British troops can somehow help the situation.
As part of a multinational peacekeeping force AFTER a negotiated settlement, wasn't it?
and part of that settlement will include security guarantees for Russia. The idea that there could be a settlement without that is obviously ridiculous.
That prompts a couple of questions in my mind. Genuine questions.
In what way is Russia's security threatened that it needs guarantees to protect it? Who or what was going to attack Russia before it invaded Ukraine?
Is it equally ridiculous not to expect the other party in any settlement to be given security guarantees?
Russia's security concerns need to be addressed,
A fair comment and didn't deserve a "Lol" response.
However, iirc Russia's security concerns were about Ukraine in NATO on it's borders being a risk to Russia. Which is obviously bollocks, because Russia had several NATO countries on its border before all this and didn't feel the need to invade them, so that doesn't stand up. And now they have Finland as well.
The sad thing is that the previous security guarantees made to Ukraine by western nations when they gave up their nuclear weapons were not followed through when Russia first annexed Ukraine territory.
That made the west look soft, which emboldened Putin to finally invade. It also made the Ukrainians believe that nothing less than NATO membership would protect them from Russian aggression.
Which is why nations must stand up to any type of bullying early, before it spirals tragically out of control. See Trump as a case in point.
Western peacekeepers have stood up to and faced down Russian forces before, in the former Yugoslavia. Though if the stories about which British officer was responsible for preventing WW3 are to be believed, it was only because he threatened to sing if they didn't withdraw.
I fully accept that it is totally impossible to have any sort of discussion on the subject without everything being interpreted in very simple black and white terms.
However whatever the opinions on that particular echo chamber it would appear that the sentiments behind my comment finds traction with a fairly wide audience
Uhuh. So it's an echo chamber if your opinions are challenged, but not where your sentiments touch a perceived wider audience of agreement?
It's the wrong thread for Ukraine, but your assessment of the realities and options is very wide of the mark. That's not because the Ukraine thread is an echo chamber, but because your viewpoint can't or won't accommodate those things. That's not a reflection of the quality of debate or commentary on that issue, but of your interpretation and expression of it.
Anyway, Farage. Every opportunity to hurt him politically needs to be taken, and now is a key time to do it.
Why Jeremy Corbyn binners?
Well it’s not like he's always been a Kremlin apologist or anything, is it?
I see that once again, as with Brexit, the opinions of the far left and far right are aligning with each other. Go far enough to the extremes in either direction and they end up meeting around the back, by the bins
Well it’s not like he's always been a Kremlin apologist or anything, is it?
So it turns out that I am like Corbyn because like him I am "a Kremlin apologist" ? Wow, even by your standards that's pretty low.
Yep, shit like that confirms just how pointless it is to try to have any sort of sensible or balanced debate on the issue.
And well done for ignoring the fact that Corbyn repeatedly warned many years ago about the threat that Putin and the Russian oligarchs posed. He was of course ignored, as they bankrolled the Tory Party.
Btw I assuming that the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace are also 'apologists for the Kremlin', since they make the same point that I and many others, including foreign governments, make?
I think even Donald Trump would struggle to come up with something like that!
Diaper Don hasn’t got the intelligence to come up with something like that, but his handlers and enablers in the far-Right Christo-fascist movement are perfectly capable of doing it. They’re well-read and have a good grasp of history and know exactly how Christians and their religion can and have been influenced into doing what those with malign intentions want.
Anyway, Farage. Every opportunity to hurt him politically needs to be taken, and now is a key time to do it.
He’s announced he’s relinquishing the ownership of the party, apparently; maybe Donny and Elonia, flush with all the money they’ve been stripping out of the US economy, have offered Farage a job - maybe Special Envoy to the Russian enclave that Russia lets the Ukrainians grudgingly keep, once America and Russia have stripped it of all of its assets.
I see that once again, as with Brexit, the opinions of the far left and far right are aligning with each other. Go far enough to the extremes in either direction and they end up meeting around the back, by the bins
I agree, here is a handy pie chart for the hard of thinking:
They’re well-read and have a good grasp of history
I think the problem with the US Christo-fascist right is that while they'd very much like to think that, their problem is that they're not.
At the risk of crossing the streams, from a post on the Musk thread, Farage is attending the CPAC conference* where Bannon did a Nazi salute. Time to ask him some probing questions and see how the piggy squeals.
*as opposed to being in his constituency.
I agree, here is a handy pie chart for the hard of thinking:
Yup you would need to be hard of thinking to support that.
The fishhook theory has rather more historical support, although still on flimsy foundations, vs the horseshoe theory.
The fishhook theory has rather more historical support
I guess if you're far left, the fishhook theory is attractive as it at least exculpates you and implies criticism of political ideologues you dislike
Though if the stories about which British officer was responsible for preventing WW3 are to be believed, it was only because he threatened to sing if they didn't withdraw.
Beautiful.
I guess if you're far left, the fishhook theory is attractive as it at least exculpates you and implies criticism of political ideologues you dislike
Fascinating how you get so agitated over this but failed to get lash out at Binners and Mattyfez and their support for the horseshoe theory (admittedly a garbled interpretation) .
I wonder why that is?
Pie charts (it looked like a doughnut to me) horseshoes, or fishhooks, it's bollocks designed to detract from the fact that Putin's and the Russian oligarchs very useful idiots have of course always been right-wingers. After all they share so much in common, and the Russian oligarchs have so much money.
Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Peter Mandelson, Tony Blair, all found the pull of the Russian oligarchs quite irresistible.
In contrast the Left has always denounced the clear links between the UK right-wing establishment and Putin's oligarchs.
This was Jeremy Corbyn's advice to Tony Blair well over 20 years ago :
When the Prime Minister travels to Moscow—I imagine that he is already on his way there—and meets President Putin this evening, I hope that he will convey the condemnation of millions of people around the world of the activities of the Russian army in Chechnya and of what it is doing to ordinary people there.
You can be sure that Tony Blair didn't convey the condemnation of millions of people around the world, after all the Chechnyan people are not Europeans living in a Christian country like our fellow Europeans in Ukraine. Besides, Tony Blair went on to oversee the pointless slaughter of quite a few Muslims himself.
More background here to the situation that's come back to bite us on the arse :
"For the Tories and the Labour establishment, mocking Corbyn distracts from their own long-lived collaboration with Vladimir Putin and his oligarchs."
“If I turned up at the White House, I’d make sure I was wearing a suit, my shoes were cleaned,” Farage told LBC.
You have to assume that Nigel Farage isn't aware that Winston Churchill [The greatest Briton who ever lived] turned up to the White House wearing a boiler suit.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140997
Maybe Winston Churchill [The greatest Briton who ever lived] wasn't quite as "incredibly old fashioned" as Farage claims Trump is.
Not much chance of him making it the Whitehouse, Trump and President Musk are completely ignoring him.
Lord Far Far
“If I turned up at the White House, I’d make sure I was wearing a suit, my shoes were cleaned,” Farage told LBC.
You have to assume that Nigel Farage isn't aware that Winston Churchill [The greatest Briton who ever lived] turned up to the White House wearing a boiler suit.
Trump and his line manager, Musk seem to be ok with wearing baseball caps in the whitethouse... 😉
Also... Human excrement 'kid rock' seems to have a 'green card' for playing fancy dress as some sort black pimp caricature, so it would appear the dress code is somewhat 'wooly'...
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The party that fractured the Tories is fracturing. And all because of Musk and this fascination with Stephen Yaxley Lennon. I’d happily see that super toxic bazillionaire vapourised tomorrow.
Yup interesting to see where this goes, Musk is positioning himself as kingmaker of the hard right,
Id say that reform is more than just a Farage personality cult now, its a protest party that's a viable voting option for millions, but its internal structure is built around a farage owned PLC , could get messy and you can bet musk will be itching to take a bigger role
Blimey Rupert Lowe makes Nigel Farage look like a moderate. According to him MPs should be paid £250k, the BBC as a “cancer at the heart of Britain”, he is supportive of Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and thinks Trump's approach to Ukraine is sensible.
Personally I would be surprised if any serious fracturing occurred in Reform at the present time quite simply because they are riding so high in the polls, it's difficult to see how there could be a challenge to the leadership whilst things are looking so positive for them.
I do fully expect them to fall out with each other and be at eachother's throats post the next general election though, the far-right are constantly at war with eachother and can't see it standing the test of time.
Rupert Lowe you say? Wonder why he's got it in for the BBC?
BBC News - Reform UK refers MP Rupert Lowe to police
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4ge5jl62nro
Personally I would be surprised if any serious fracturing occurred in Reform at the present time
Starts with a crack, then a split, and then....
Better Friday than last week
the fagash fuhrer will tolerate no non believers in his ego vehicle/cult/cash cow
Lowe doesn't have the support to split the party, but he was the one Musk tipped over farage, will be interesting to see if space Karen sticks his oar in again.
Lowe said it was "no surprise" that the party's "vexatious statement" had been released the day after he had criticised party leader Nigel Farage.
In an interview with the Daily Mail, Lowe said the party remained a "protest party led by the Messiah" under Farage's leadership.
I actually found his attack on his own party and his leader yesterday both remarkable and surprising, not least because Reform are currently doing very well indeed (latest poll out today they are still 1% in front of Labour) my immediate thoughts was that he wanted to make a bid for the leadership.
But why now I thought so soon after a general election and now that Reform have almost doubled their support since then. I suspect what actually happened was that Rupert Lowe got wind of what was about to happen and yesterday was a preemptive strike by him, now he's claiming that he is a victim.
I can't imagine that Reform were able to make a legal case against him which they could then pass on to the police in what, a day?
I like how he has apparently said that there isn't any "credible evidence" against him. So he doesn't deny that evidence exists then.
How do you expect to have party discipline when your chief whip is 30p Lee? 😂
30p Lee apparently pulled out of gbnews show tonight, he'd be the first one to watch for jumping to a new party, whatever happened to Cummings proposed one? I know dom is desperate to get space karens backing.
Theres a truth that people don't vote for divided parties , but a good chunk of reform support is protest vore regardless.
but a good chunk of reform support is protest vore regardless.
Absolutely, no doubt about it. And not least all the support they have picked up since the general election when they received 14% of the vote.
I very much doubt many people who now say they would vote Reform could give you a list of their policies, I certainly couldn't.
i guess the question is when it comes to an actual GE would those people put their X's next to a party with no policies?
I suspect plenty would but i also think a chunk would go back to the Tories
Lowe posted a statement on X asking the party leader, Nigel Farage, to have dinner with him less than 24 hours after Lowe lost the Reform whip
FFS, a candlelit dinner?
I know that we are talking about a Reform UK MP but still, he sounds like someone with a few issues and not the most balanced person in UK politics :
“I have torn out what remaining hair I have left over the last few months trying to talk. That’s it. Just talk. I have tried, and tried, and tried to resolve all of this behind closed doors. I can only smash my head against a brick wall for so long.”
Lowe is clearly a drunk and a particularly unpleasant one.
McMurdock is a domestic violence perp.
Farage and Tice have just happened on an easier grift than timeshares/second hand cars.
30p Lee is just a figure of ridicule.
How anyone can look at this rabble and think "yes, they're the people who most accurately represent me" is totally unfathomable.
Other rabbles?
Other rabbles?
Or less rabbly rabbles that can be painted as rabbly to sway the gullible?
How anyone can look at this rabble and think "yes, they're the people who most accurately represent me" is totally unfathomable
people just see Farage banging on about immigrants and tick the reform box , wnd the reform name helps, because people feel that it means change
How anyone can look at this rabble and think "yes, they're the people who most accurately represent me" is totally unfathomable.
That's the kind of thinking that gave us Brexit. People generally aren't that interested in politics - they'll vote for the thing that seems to address their concerns without being that bothered about what exactly they'll get if they win the vote. Meanwhile the quietly concerned spend more time convincing themselves that "surely nobody would vote for this" than polishing their arguments so their answer looks like the best option.
people just see Farage banging on about immigrants and tick the reform box
It's not even that anymore.
"Strong anti-immigration views were dominant among those who voted Reform in the 2024 general election, but those who have begun to support the party since then have far more diverse views.
“This includes a sizeable group of voters who are actually quite positive towards the benefits of immigration and multiculturalism but increasingly feel the main parties have failed and it is time for something new.”
So people are not necessarily thinking "yes, they're the people who most accurately represent me". They are just looking for alternatives.
Unusually I agree with Ernie on this - Reform attracts a lot of interest from people just disillusioned with the old Tory/Labour choice, we aren't allowed to forgive the LibDems and the Greens aren't quite big enough yet.
Anyway, the bust up continues:
BBC News - Lawyer probing Reform UK row contradicts MP Lowe
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7430zw4zqyo
Anyway, the bust up continues:
This is Farage's perpetual curse. His schtick is that he's popular with people who dislike stuff. He easily gets misanthropes to rally to him, but when they do they realise amongst the things they hate are... other misanthropes, including him. And the feeling is mutual, he really doesn't seem to like any of them either.
I just came to add that I really, really dislike Farridge - people I know have started to share his shit on Facebook & it really gets to me that they have fallen for his brand of bull shite.
Lowe and Habib talking about setting up their own party & FT reporting that Musk thinking of backing an alternative to Reform.....
Farage will not be happy
https://www.ft.com/content/d7cbb26a-57b8-4fd5-ac5b-00de25d53a0e
I am sure that Nigel Farage will be very pleased with this. It is one thing for Reform UK to receive defections from the hard-right of the Tory Party but this defection from a LibDem councillor follows a Labour councillor defecting to Reform last month.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9de6djy3l6o
I can't imagine this will be the last of the defections from more "centrist" parties as Reform's electoral successe grows and centrists discover that their principles and values are surprisingly malleable and easily redefined.
Reforms constitution is written to make it almost impossible to dethrone Farage, can you imagine getting 50% of their membership to write a letter.... and reform have to get to 100+ MPs before their MPs get the chance to overthrow the anointed one.
Whilst visiting one of my friends his father stopped in, he got to talking about politics...
He's a typical working class fella, now retired, and was telling me he's now going to vote for Reform. His reasoning was very simple - he's voted Labour all his life, but he no longer see's anything related to him in their party, says they're as bad as Tory. They just take everything I worked for, tax this and that, give nothing back.
His pals are of the same view and also going to vote Reform 'because we might as well, they say they will make it better'...
The problem I see is that no one really has any actual interest in politics and the vast majority get their 'news' from the likes of Facebook. People are surprisingly easily manipulated.
We're doomed...
The problem I see is that no one really has any actual interest in politics and the vast majority get their 'news' from the likes of Facebook. People are surprisingly easily manipulated
Accepting this, but also this is also true
His reasoning was very simple - he's voted Labour all his life, but he no longer see's anything related to him in their party,
I just don't understand how people think Reform is the answer. But then, I couldn't understand why people voted for Brexit, so maybe it's me.
Hopefully enough will see the binfire across the pond to put them off voting for "anyone but the establishment".
Lowe and Habib talking about setting up their own party & FT reporting that Musk thinking of backing an alternative to Reform.....
Let's call it Veritas.... The English Democrats ... The Alliance for Democracy... Provisional UKIP ..... Returning Point Uk ..... Continuity Reform.... Regretsit..... Aunty Federalist's League... the Re-Referendum Party .... Paul Nuttal's Greatest Hits..... Robert Kilroy's Ilk?
he's voted Labour all his life, but he no longer see's anything related to him in their party, says they're as bad as Tory. They just take everything I worked for, tax this and that, give nothing back.
I just can't see how people who voted Labour in the 70s and 80s now think Labour is too much of a high-tax state? Labour are well to the right of Kinnock et al now.
There is a (cynical) generational argument that suggests these people were happy to vote for a higher tax state with a decent dole when they were young and skint, but now that they're retired homeowners they want to pull up the ladder for others. I don't want to suggest that's what this guy is like, but it would fit....
The key words were "not seeing anything related to him". What did Labour used to be/do that related to him (and I guess by related he means benefitted)
now that they're retired homeowners they want to pull up the ladder for others. I don't want to suggest that's what this guy is like, but it would fit....
That sums up my parents - every time I see them now the conversation has to be steered away from tax cos they moan & complain about their money being stolen.
They do not like Farage tho - so that is something
The ladder has already been pulled up, the establishment are burying their heads in the sand and are not offering solutions, when the establishment offer no hope it isn't hard to see why false hope can become an increasingly popular option. Put the blame where it lies, with the parties that have been in power for the past 40 years, until they change tact they are making the ground fertile for the populist to take advantage of the continued failure.
The key words were "not seeing anything related to him". What did Labour used to be/do that related to him (and I guess by related he means benefitted)
I’m in a similar position, well, actually, for the last 10+ years. None of the mainstream parties appeal to me. I wont be voting for anyone, as Farage and his cronies would be just as bad if they got any power. As for Labour, I lost faith very quickly with Blair, I thought Starmer may be a change for the better, but no, he hasnt got any principles he’d stand up for, he didnt put up fuel duty, yet cut bus subsidies are my arguments against him, then it was found he was another with his nose in the trough, receiving ‘donations’ of £32k of clothes for himself. FFS, he’s on a decent wage, he has no doubt been on a good wage for the last 20 years, yet still takes £32k+ of gifts. I’ve got no doubt that Farage, Badenoch and any other high ranking Politician would do the same, which, to a working class person, is very close to corruption, so none of them get my vote, but , I can see why people would vote for Reform, as the two main Parties are failing the Electorate, so what other choice is there?
Given that Labour are turning out to be the Tories only with less internal bitching and less external culture wars shit for me the choice is obvious in the Green Party (as it has been for many years) but they will never be a serious contender for many reasons so I may as well not bother voting.
So I see its all calming down between farage & lowe......
I have fought against the rape gangs for over a decade.
For Rupert Lowe to say that I tried to prevent him talking about it is monstrous.
He told Lee Anderson he would ‘slit the throat of the Reform party’.
Lowe is out to cause damage & should be ignored by our supporters.
And Lowe replied:
Desperate.
I said that Reform leadership was slitting its own throat by launching this horrific smear campaign against me, with zero credible evidence.
I raised questions of Reform policy, communication and structure. The day after, you kicked me out.
That’s your real motive
In other Reform news....
BBC News - Ex-Reform UK Wales leader to stand trial over Russia-linked bribes
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgw83w1vj1o
FFS....
At a working men’s club in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham, the Reform leader made his most audacious attempt yet to outflank Labour to its left on the economy, praising trade unions and calling for the return of nationalised heavy industry, coal mining and oil and gas extraction.
Dismissing attacks on his past support for privatised healthcare — which Labour hope will neutralise Reform’s appeal among its voters — he again positioned himself firmly on the left, insisting: “We’ve never, ever, ever suggested anything other than that the NHS should be free.”
The call for reindustrialisation marked a deliberate breach with Reform’s Thatcherite roots. Farage called for a “pragmatic” relationship between his party and the trade unions and declined to criticise Unite’s ongoing bin strike in Birmingham, instead blaming Labour’s “soft-touch” approach in negotiations.
This is the guy previously quoted as wanting to know why a government should bail out British Steel?
Opportunistic little bandwagon jumping grifter.
the choice is obvious in the Green Party (as it has been for many years) but they will never be a serious contender for many reasons so I may as well not bother voting.
It's always worth voting. 1.8 million votes at the last election and look at the trend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_England_and_Wales_election_results
So Farage is having a go at mixing socialism into his nationalism?
If only there was a catchy abbreviation for this novel new political ideology.
It's always worth voting. 1.8 million votes at the last election and look at the trend:
Yes, I still vote but in my constituency Green got 6% which was 2% down from previous time. I am in a high arsehole area though with the Tory winning yet again (he has been there for almost 30 years) so doesn't go for other areas.
So Farage is having a go at mixing socialism into his nationalism?
If only there was a catchy abbreviation for this novel new political ideology.
Nigel Farage's newfound commitment to nationalisation might be primarily driven by its popular appeal but let's hope that it is greater than that of the National Socialist German Workers Party.
The Nazis government was very big on privatisation, including the steel industry. In fact they were the first government to carry out mass privatisation, 50 years before Margaret Thatcher.
"
The first mass privatization of state property occurred in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1937: "It is a fact that the government of the National Socialist Party sold off public ownership in several state-owned firms in the middle of the 1930s. The firms belonged to a wide range of sectors: steel, mining, banking, local public utilities, shipyard, ship-lines, railways, etc. In addition to this, delivery of some public services produced by public administrations prior to the 1930s, especially social services and services related to work, was transferred to the private sector, mainly to several organizations within the Nazi Party."
Great Britain privatized its steel industry in the 1950s, and the West German government embarked on large-scale privatization, including sale of the majority stake in Volkswagen to small investors in public share offerings in 1961. However, it was in the 1980s under Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom and Ronald Reagan in the United States that privatization gained worldwide momentum."
Nigel Farage's newfound commitment to nationalisation might be primarily driven by its popular appeal but let's hope that it is greater than that of the National Socialist German Workers Party.
The Nazis government was very big on privatisation, including the steel industry. In fact they were the first government to carry out mass privatisation, 50 years before Margaret Thatcher.
I'm pretty sure that is exactly Farages view of "nationalisation".
His local minions are very vocal on local FB pages ahead of the local elections. Any publicity being good publicity.
‘Working from home?’ Says NF, well forget it.
what a complete idiot. I’ve worked from home for 18 years. It’s enabled me to carry on ‘manufacturing’ something for people, paying into the economy and not paying extortionate rent to a landlord for a workroom.
Hubby also wfh and is more productive (and works slightly more hours, due to not having to travel).
what happened to choice Nigel?
He’s a revolting oxygen thief, who like his bessie over the pond, doesn’t give a flying fig for the environment, nature or any ‘green’ climate issues which are almost at critical level.
And breath.
Well this should be fun. Now farage has control of my county council Im looking forward to seeing how his councillors stop the boats given no part of the county is less than 50 miles from the sea.
He’s about to find out what Unions are capable of with he threats of sacking people for no reason, he even made departments up to try get his fans on board.
Here’s hoping that now they’re responsible for actually making some decisions that actually effect peoples lives, that they’ll now be held up to the same scrutiny as the other political parties.
Thats been woefully absent up until now and Farage always seems to be given a free pass to spout any old bollocks without ever being challenged over any of it