[Closed] Nicky Morgan asking teachers for help for the recruitment crisis lol

Hideous woman, Gove's lackey. She's got a nerve, blaming the teachers whilst systematically breaking the education system in order to sell it off to the highest / chummiest bidder.

It's pretty simple. Make the job attractive to quality candidates eg most maths graduates can earn more with a decent work life balance than teaching provides. This may not be the case for all subjects of course but maths teachers are in short supply for simple reasons.
The Govt seems unwilling to address this as they cannot possibly be unaware. I genuinely fear that the damage done to our public services in recent years will never be repaired in my lifetime.

Teachers in 'whinging about education secretary' shocker 🙄

Can you tell me the last one they didn't whinge about?

'Education secretary forcing through ideological changes without any statistical basis supporting that change' shocker.

Can you tell me the last one that didn't do that?

It's pretty simple. Make the job attractive to quality candidates eg most maths graduates can earn more with a decent work life balance than teaching provides. This may not be the case for all subjects of course but maths teachers are in short supply for simple reasons.

This +1

I'm being made redundant and a recruiter sent me something for teaching (apparently you don't need to be a qualified teacher if your subject is in demand!).

I'm sure teaching is far more rewarding in other ways, but I'm not surprised they struggle to recruit anyone from a science, maths or engineering background when the wages are about 30% lower than other starting salaries and that gap only seems to widen as you move along!

One good thing about academies, they can pay what the market rate is for qualified people, so it should lead to an improvement in STEM subjects.

...or they can pay below minimum for non-in-demand subjects.

Having said that, I'm really worried about the possibility in the Tory white paper of scrapping QTS - so anyone can be employed as a teacher. Can't see how that leads to Educational Excellence Everywhere.

One good thing about academies, they can pay what the market rate is for qualified people, so it should lead to an improvement in STEM subjects.

You are assuming the schools have any capacity to pay more? Ours is talking of redundancies whilst A level contact hours reduced, again! Its not helped by spending thousands advertising jobs that no one applies for!

Tory white paper of scrapping QTS - so anyone can be employed as a teacher

Anyone can be in an academy!!

Can you tell me the last one they didn't whinge about?

Making a difference to children's life's.

Making a difference to children's life's.

Ore you're edukayshun?
🙂

Teachers should act in a more grown up fashion, by all means rebel, but jeering and acting up is something teachers of old would have thought beneath them.

Teachers should act in a more grown up fashion

Like MP's?

They could have kept quiet completely but the media would have broadcasted a positive talk; in the news.

Instead it looked bad for her throughout.

It was a pathetic speech.

Education is in dire need of sorting or it's going to plan according to the Tories.

Besides we need someone/your children to clean up the toilets if we are to become independent of Europe.

Sounded like they were in the House of Commons, maybe they were just trying to make her feel at home.

Hardly a hostile response.

On the radio earlier I heard the bit regarding only 3 out of 20 union press releases were positive about teaching.
Does she think the teachers should lie just like the politicians do?

Teachers and givernment ministers - wont anyone think of the children?

Yeah THM teachers are only critical ofcthe changes because we can be. ****ing hate kids couldnt give a shit about them as long as I get my massive pay cheque, gold plated pension and endless holidays.

First they came for the junior doctors.....

kimbers - Member
First they came for the junior doctors.....

Does that count as a Godwin?

🙂

You've gotta love the private sector's indifference. Until it impacts the services they want/need.

Ill accept that its Godwin lite

Godwin lite

😆

It's already impacting private sector, people incapable or reading safety documents, apprentices with no common sense, new starters who don't know " Jamie and the Magic Torch" or "Chortlon and the Wheelies", I mean what is the world coming too..

Pah left wing out of touch teachers jeering education secretary hardly news is it. In fact when have they ever not? It is as predictable as the sun coming up tomorrow.

I don't think they'll ever be the required amount of science teachers not just because of the money but because if you are good at science and engineering there are jobs out there pushing the boundaries of what's possible, which is far more interesting than teaching 200 year old science to kids who don't give a sh*t. The old quote 'He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.' is still valid.

Brilliant dragon. Haven't heard that old chestnut for a while. Well done on a highly original, swooping generalisation; I applaud your open mindedness and forward thinking which is not doubt a well formed and reasoned argument with a breadth of evidence to support it.

If maths teachers are in short supply and the argument goes that they can earn more in other fields , what's the STW teacher view on paying a maths teacher premium of, say, 30%? How much whining can we expect from the nearest impoverished history teacher who couldn't cut it at maths A level then? 🙂

Problem is Stoner you then get people with different degrees like science wanting to be maths teachers so science becomes worse. Anyway pay isnt the major reason for teacher shortages as far as I can see. Its work load.

Dragon 2/10 please try harder

There's a lot of twaddle being spouted here.
Science is brilliant, I'd happily teach it as I love working with kids, I'm put out off by friends who've gone into it because the workload sucks and the education sec being on a mission to devalue your job doesn't help.

The pay argument does not stack up though because there's way more science graduates than jobs and trust me the pay in science is crap.
I absolutely love my job but there's plenty of other jobs out there where I could have used my degree to earn a lot more,(including teaching !) plenty of my friends from uni did.
I'm also privvy to the salaries in my department at a major London uni and I garuantee that most people would be surprised at how little many senior scientists earn.

The pay argument does not stack up though because there's way more science graduates than jobs and trust me the pay in science is crap.
I absolutely love my job but there's plenty of other jobs out there where I could have used my degree to earn a lot more,(including teaching !)

Really, I got paid a more doing post doc work. Found it as dull as hell though. Say what you like about teaching, its never dull!!

I'm fortunate enough to very much enjoy my research, but I'm not in it for the salary.
Id really like to be an archaeologist though and the salaries there are even worse..

I think some people haven't quite got to grips yet with why a teacher chooses to teach....

I think some people haven't quite got to grips yet with why a teacher chooses to

When I left university it seemed mainly because there weren't many jobs and they were paying people quite well to do the PGCE.

Just left teaching after 14 years...

@jam bo... You confirm my point well....your viewpoint is probably how Nicky Morgan views it too....(for context, I've spent seven years working with hundreds of different teachers from around the country who work in both public and private schools and I've completed research on education too)...

I wanted to make a difference in young people's lives.

I said that during my meeting and was told I made a huge impact on children's lives and even the parents asked for me to stay. Was offered more money too.

I've done my service to society and I refuse work flat out 18 hrs a day unless they paid more but you'll end up dead so f that.

Thought about returning to research as I understood complex things and enjoyed the problem solving - too easy?

Now it's time to make or break.

Thanks kids for letting me teach you. It's been an honour to watch your mind grow/give you the encouragement you needed to be successful.

As with Jeremy Hunt as Health Secretary, I look at her and think; is she evangelically forcing through some mad uber-ideological, neo-liberal scorched earth end-of-days scenario, or is it that she's just an utterly clueless ****-wit, who's completely detached from reality?

As with Hunt, I've concluded that it's both

Binners, do not under estimate the Tories, they are not idiots screwing things up they know exactly what they are doing. Mrgan went to the conference for a reason

Unfortunately, I agree with you. Their policies all come from a terrifyingly mad ideological zeal to privatise everything in sight, completely destroy local government, and all forms of representative democracy, saddling us for ever with irreversible unacountable corporate rule.

But the likes of Hunt and Morgan aren't the evil masterminds of this plot. We all know who they are. Morgan, Hunt and their ilk are just useful idiots. Governmental cannon fodder who'll just go out and say what they're told to say by Osbourne

Their policies all come from a terrifyingly mad ideological zeal to privatise everything in sight

Well that not very good at that are they. Government spending largely doesn't change that much - ok this lot are trying to bring it down to 90s levels - they ring fence essential services etc and seem to ensure that government plays a very large role in the allocation of scarce resources. Like most parties they seem to be more in favour of a mixed economy but I could be wrong.

completely destroy local government, and all forms of representative democracy, saddling us for ever with irreversible unacountable corporate rule.

Do referenda not count, how about shifting the tax burden towards large corporates?

At least they are not preaching "Education, education, education" as if somehow it really was important.

Could you run me through how repeatedly reducing corporation tax is placing an additional tax burden on corporates?

I'm sure there's some perfectly rational explanation that I've somehow missed.

Over to you....

Yes there is - the tax rate may grab the headlines but only tell you part of the story. As always budgets are exercises in sleight of hand - headlines to keep supporters happy/detractors frothy, reality for those who can be bothered to check.

As mentioned before always misleading to look at the tax system from the perspective of one tax. UK tax burden on corporate effectively unchanged by budget. Worse if you are a bank.

Never has one person written so much without saying anything!

You do yourself a disservice AA

Binners, you are the chancellor's best friend - you believe what he wants you to believe. 😉

Cutting the marginal rate means a reduction in tax revenues of approx £950m. Changing various allowances at the same time - and other hidden sleights of hand - raise close to £9bn. Overall effect is gov will raise an additional £4bn from corporates as at result of the budget. But you do have to be bothered to go beyond the headlines to notice this - or run a company!!

Never has one person written so much without saying anything!

To be fair all THM's post are cryptic drivel, alluding to some mass injustice against the rich / corporates which is so terrible be can't actually articulate it using words...

I'd guess he has some form of PTSD from having to pay tax.

No injustice footflaps - just prefer to focus on what happens rather than on what people mistakenly believe happens. It's important, unless you want to swallow politicians' guff wholesale. Generally a bad ideas though....

And BTW corporations don't pay tax - their workers, customers or shareholders do - another reason to understand what is going on properly.

Cutting the marginal rate means a reduction in tax revenues of approx £950m. Changing various allowances at the same time - and other hidden sleights of hand - raise close to £9bn. Overall effect is gov will raise an additional £4bn from corporates as at result of the budget.

You havent shown your working out 3/10 please try harder!

terrifyingly mad ideological zeal to privatise everything in sight,

Except a) The blue party didn't invent Academies and b) Academies are more nationalisation, than privatisation - funding schools centrally. c) Govt spending isn't significantly different.

Sorry AA, better for student to at least engage their brains to understand the topic. Teach a man to fish and all that....Appreciate that reading round the subject might be slightly higher on my agenda than yours though.

1/10 for effort and comprehension.

They said on R4 the corporation tax changes raised, not lowered revenue and neither interviewee disputed that so I assume it's true.

1/10 for effort

Classic THM most impressive I honestly dont know how you keep this act up!!!

Really AA? I thought you liked "marks out of ten" games? I guess 1 was generous as no attempt to address the issue and zero workings too. Still 4/10 between us - that's an A these days isn't it?

Its an 8 now come on keep up!

Shucks so we have collectively failed. The shame....(ok may be a c then)

[i]Never has one person written so much without saying anything! [/i]

Maybe he's a politician? Anyone know THM? Check to see if he has the obligatory hand waving and the answer will be told.... 😀

Maybe he's a politician?

Ouch, now that's below the belt.

I don't think many people really know what's going on. MrsMC visits hundreds of schools with her job and I hear stories that I have to get her to repeat about academies because I can't quite believe it. Last week I googled jobs in my (minority) subject area and I can't remember seeing so many but most were agency/daily rate. Who would want that for their kids? Anyway very soon we'll both be out of it (early) and the system will be short of two people who've studied in 6 universities, published stuff and spent 40 or so years as examiners. We are not unique. I'm just really glad that our kids (2 graduates, 1 at medical school and 1 just finishing A levels) will be out of the school system too.

teamhurtmore - Member

[b]"Their policies all come from a terrifyingly mad ideological zeal to privatise everything in sight"[/b]

Well that not very good at that are they. Government spending largely doesn't change that much - ok this lot are trying to bring it down to 90s levels - they ring fence essential services etc and seem to ensure that government plays a very large role in the allocation of scarce resources. Like most parties they seem to be more in favour of a mixed economy but I could be wrong.

Anyone with the most rudimentary understanding of economics would be aware that a commitment to privatisation does not automatically result in a fall in government spending.

In fact it can lead to the complete opposite.

No one would doubt the commitment to privatisation under Thatcher's premiership, and yet during that period government spending rose significantly.

And for a more specific example, government spending on subsiding the railways is now greater than it was pre-privatisation.

0/10 for effort and comprehension.

No one would doubt the commitment to privatisation under Thatcher's premiership, and yet during that period government spending rose significantly.

Was that just due to a coincidental rise in unemployment or was it cause and effect.

Very true Ernie, which is why you have to read the whole sentence not misquote part of it, albeit for (usual) effect (sic)

-1 for lack of effort

But bonus 10/10 for bringing your beloved poster girl into the debate. Shame not to have any of your picture collection,, it's been too long!!

Anyway back to teaching - Sats tests and freedom of expression are today's headlines.

Teacher recruitment crisis might have something to do with...

KPI - Key performance indicator.
Flight path - Progress tracker through years 7 to 11.
Data Drop - Regular prediction of student performance.
Pupil Passport - Special educational need document.
PCL - Personalised learning checklist.
Grades 1-9 - You can forget about A*-C, that's old school.
Facilitating subjects - English literature, History,Modern languages, Maths, Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Geography (good luck if you teach something else)
EBacc - English Baccalaureate - choose options wisely padawan.
Progress 8 - Get your four buckets filled.
TG - Target grades.
Ever6 - Free school meals in the last 6 years.
DG's - Disadvantaged groups.
Show My Homework, Doddle, SIMS, Pixl, Sisra, 4-Matrix, NovaT6...

Hang on, sun's out winds dropping. I am going to ride my bike.

teamhurtmore - Member

Very true Ernie, which is why you have to read the whole sentence not misquote part of it, albeit for (usual) effect (sic)

I quoted the whole paragraph. It is crystal clear that you are claiming (in very grammatically poor English) that the government are "not very good" at privatisation because "government spending largely doesn't change that much".

Which is obviously nonsensical logic.

0/10 for paying attention to your own posts.

How we have missed endless misquoting for effect. Welcome back Ernie.

Please excuse my poor grammar, standards slip without your constant monitoring.

Some of you really hate Tories don't you. 😛

Class war is still very much alive I see. 😆

The pay argument does not stack up though because there's way more science graduates than jobs and trust me the pay in science is crap.

Science isn't just research, you could teach science, or maths with an engineering degree, or you could be earning £50k+ doing engineering before you're 30 without breaking too much of a sweat.

https://www.oilandgasjobsearch.com/Oil-and-Gas-Jobs/Process-Engineer-Jobs/Senior-Process-Engineer/Details/1153795 Salary : Negotiable, with 8-10yrs experience you could probably have asked and got £60k last year before the oil price crash, or half that teaching?

There are obviously other more reasons to go into teaching or research than the money, but working on huge industrial projects is hardly boring. Teaching needs to be funded properly so that those recruited are the best for each subject.

Some of you really hate Tories don't you.

Class war is still very much alive I see.

I think this may be a bit simplistic as many working class people vote Tory.

The Tory LEA's are not at all happy with the proposed education white paper either.

I don't hate Tories -many of my friends have voted Tory, even my mother did in the 1950's for goodness sake.

I do dislike most of the Tory politicians I have met though and disagree with much of the current government's approach.

Teaching needs to be funded properly so that those recruited are the best for each subject.

1) Well with there being 438,000 state teachers in England alone, they can't all be the best.

2) What does 'best' even mean in the context of teaching?

In many ways I'd rather the best were out being doctors, engineers, researchers, mandarins etc. But then if we can't define 'best' then we can never resolve the discussion.

Teaching needs to be funded properly so that those recruited are the best for each subject.

[i] What does 'best' even mean in the context of teaching? [/i]

Let's ask. What do people think makes a good teacher?

For example I would suggest it's pointless being the 'most knowledgable' in your subject if you cannot relate to young people, 'manage' a learning environment and inspire young people to learn. So in that context what's more imnportant? Hard skills of knowledge or soft skills of working with young people?

I agree with this...
[i]Why? Teachers only need to be able to teach to a-level standard. The worst will be over-qualified.[/i]

Why? Teachers only need to be able to teach to a-level standard. The worst will be over-qualified.

There are times that I despair for the state of the education system and hearing things like this make it all the more common. Whilst it is true that the ability to "do" and the ability to "teach" are different skills you still need a much more in depth knowledge of a subject beyond the "a level syllabus" in order to be effective.

I agree with this...
Why? Teachers only need to be able to teach to a-level standard. The worst will be over-qualified.

I wouldnt want to teach chemistry to a level having not done it to degree level. Also if we cannot attract "good" graduates we will end up with people teaching a level chemistry who scrapped into a rubbish uni to do a chemistry degree with 3 D's at a level. This is increasingly common these days. Other skills are as important in teaching but you cant put in what evolution left out.

@anagallis....I agree that a high grade at degree level should be the lowest necessary qualification to teach ..but I still class that as a relatively 'low' level qualification when people are discussing 'the best'.

Just seen @gone fishin commnet. I think it's been taken out of context regards teaching at A-level. Of course you need to be well above that but you dont need a Masters or a PHD to teach A-level (at the expense of the soft skills).

Of course you need to be well above that but you dont need a Masters or a PHD to teach A-level (at the expense of the soft skills).

Indeed, but a good set of A levels and a 2(i) degree from a good uni is beyond most new teachers. The quality has dropped greatly along with the supply. Teach first doesnt help as most leave teaching to have their proper careers after a few years teaching.

What a thoroughly depressing read. A lot of entrenched positions and name calling to no good effect. My kids have a few years left to go in the education system but I worry for my grandkids if I'm lucky enough to have them.

I have no political affiliations but so far haven't seen any convincing explanation of why changing all the schools to a different classification will make things better. I can't get past the most basic simplification of the situation - there is too much bureaucracy and we aren't spending enough on education. Surely until someone has the guts to say we all need to pay a bit more tax we're just fiddling while Rome burns?

On that happy note I'm going to ride my bike. That should help.

and we aren't spending enough on education.

Really? there is loads of money going into education the difference in schools now and when I was there is vast. 3G astroturf pitches, play areas, fancy white boards, ipads, free food for every increasing numbers, extra curricular activities at high school that look more like a Uni. And even better there seems to be far fewer leaking roofs or corridors made of raw breeze block.

Aye we're spending money on ipads but the rain comes through my fire exit and the single glazed windows are shit at best.

Teachers only need to be able to teach to a-level standard.

And even better there seems to be far fewer leaking roofs or corridors made of raw breeze block.

Really? Whilst that might be true in some its notvin the vast majority.

As the parent of a 19 yo that has recently moved from school (6th Form college) to university, a few apolitical thoughts:

1. There seems to be constant change imposed upon the (state) education system and I can't believe that this is necessarily a positive thing. This seems to transcend the political party in charge at the time. However, by the same token no change isn't an option either, despite the protestations of some who clearly don't want to ever cope with and embrace change;

2. There are a lot of very dedicated, capable and engaging teachers and my son was very lucky to be taught by some of these; however, on the flip side he also had to suffer some poor quality, lazy teachers too. In any profession (mine included) there will always be good, bad and indifferent, but the majority have gone through the pain of gaining a qualification because they genuinely want to do the job;

3. The UK education system still attracts a lot of overseas students, partly because there is still a lot of quality teaching and experiences available. Granted this isn't always in the state system

4. No political party is ever going to please all those involved in the education system, but I still believe that the majority leave the system in the UK with a good education. Could it be better? Certainly. Could it be worse? Definitely

5. Parents play an enormous role in education, particularly in early years. Sadly some parents believe that teachers should do it all and abdicate their own responsibility

I was maybe lucky - state grammar education, red brick university pre enormous fees - but my recent experience through my son suggests that education isn't maybe as broken (in general) as some would have us believe

but my recent experience through my son suggests that education isn't maybe as broken (in general) as some would have us believe

True, some massive cracks are appearing though and the lack of planning for the population bulge about to hit secondary schools is worrying as iscthe inability to recruit and retain staff.