[Closed] Nice

Joolsburger, you might be sick of hearing but it is reality I am afraid, at least in France. And I have grown over there. There is some outside influence for sure but the issues of the Banlieues in France is well documented.

So what?? What does that actually matter and how exactly is it relevant to anything?

There seem to be a few cases now of petty criminals being turned into radical islamists. Saying his religion isn't relevant is not going to help look at how and why this is happening. So I'd say it's very relevant, maybe especially so in France.

Jimjam are you sure that's the only religion that spouts hate and violence in its texts?

gonzy

Jimjam are you sure that's the only religion that spouts hate and violence in its texts?

Religion is a crutch for the mind. IMO all religion is little more than redundant superstition. However, the Vatican isn't spending $100 billion a year teaching people to kill non believers or that homosexuals should be thrown off buildings or that adulterers should be stoned or that women shouldn't be educated.....yes they are doing silly shit like not changing their stance on contraception but that's not exactly comparable.

However, the Vatican isn't spending $100 billion a year teaching people to kill non believers or that homosexuals should be thrown off buildings or that adulterers should be stoned or that women shouldn't be educated.....

the vast majority of victims of these terror groups are Muslims...but because they are Muslims dying at the hands of the Muslim terrorists they dont count...right?
i'm still waiting to read about a homosexual Muslim being thrown off a rooftop in a Muslim country other than in Syria
yes adulterers are dealt with harshly but that's less of a religious and more cultural practice...the same as thieves having their hands chopped off...its cruel, barbaric and unacceptable just like the death penalty...but its ok for a modern forward thinking country like America to still carry on that practice but not for others
Saudi Arabia isnt the only Muslim country in the world...there are plenty of Muslim countries around the world where women are actively encouraged to educate themselves even to the point of becoming heads of state...who'd have thunk it(?)

you're right that the Saudi government spends a huge amount of money in trying to promote Wahabbiism through the Muslim world and thats down to the Saudi royal family...but ask yourself this....who allows it to happen?
the west is aware that this happens yet turns a blind eye to it...they can do as they please so long as they still get access to the Saudi oil and allow the hypocritical Saudi government to increase its own wealth while spreading its hateful message through its own warped view of Islam.
the west also knows that the Saudi government has dirty hands by its funding of terror groups but still does nothing as it allows them to carry on their proxy wars in the middle east and other regions under the false pretence that its a "war on terror". because this allows the select few to get richer and more powerful from these so called wars...all while the innocent suffer

Look you're not telling me anything I don't know (in fact I posted as much 2hrs ago). You asked me a rhetorical question about religion. I replied.

is it really just a coincidence he is a Muslim ?

No it is just an irrelevance, Brekkers was a christian is that a coincidence ? The man who did this is evil, misguided , ill, lots of things more relevant than the peg he may have chosen to hang his act on.

Until people stop trying to use simplistic tribalism and hate to deal with international terror it will continue to spread and grow.

with all due respect this kind of thing is a regular occurance in other parts of the world such as afghanistan, ****stan, israel, palestine, iraq, syria to name but a few...but the world ignores them but then shows its shock horror when it happens a little closer to home
FFS who decides that one life is worth more than another??
it shouldnt matter about race, gender or religion...its all human life at the end of the day and should therefore be equal

POSTED 2 HOURS AGO #

Yeah no, they described it in the headlines as a "Truck attack" first - like this

http://fox13now.com/2016/07/14/mayor-of-nice-france-tens-of-dead-when-truck-runs-into-crowd/

Meanwhile in other news, "Planes attack Pearl Harbour" and "Gun kills dozens of school children".

And no one ever thinks that Muslims being blown up in ****stan is somehow less of a tragedy, it's just much more common.

Personally, I suspect your whatabouterry highlights a deep seated feeling of these attacks being justified (cuz it happens in ****stan and the west support Israel right?). Which makes you an enemy of the west.

The reality is, is that if we have trading relations with any country in the middle east. We'll get blown up for it, for one reason or the other. Support Shia Iranians? We'll get blown up by Sunnis. Support Saudi Arabia, we'll get blown up by Shia and Saudis themselves. Support Iraqis? We'll get bombed by Iranians. Support Turks? We'll get bombed by Kurds. Support Kurds? We'll get bombed by Turks, Syrians and Iranians. Etc etc etc etc ad nauseum.

@crankboy, if you think islam is an irrelavance you are deluded and foolish.

Wife is looking to cancel tomorrows flights into Nice.
Am I been unreasonable in wanting to still go?
I dont think its an more dangerous now, if anything its probably less so.

We are staying about an hour away up in the hills....I think if we cancel then the nut jobs win.

You should still go.

i d be happy to go tomorrow .

Yup I'm flying into Marseilles soon, you can't change your life because of these murderers, or they win.

Just hope you don't have a suicidal German pilot. 8)
Some of my best friends are......

Parents and brothers will be there so I going regardless, I suppose the flip side is if she stays at home with the kids I get an entire week in the Alps on a bike. Easyjet will refund the flights, I should be able to hire a nice ride for that 🙂

Christ....might have to tone back my arguments for them coming!!

mrchrispy
Wife is looking to cancel tomorrows flights into Nice.
Am I been unreasonable in wanting to still go?

Statistically speaking, the most dangerous thing you'll do tomorrow is jump into your car and drive to the airport, but you'll be very unlikely to even give that a second thought............

(especially dangerous in fact as you are likely to be stressed and distracted and not fully concentrating on the task of driving)

Wife is looking to cancel tomorrows flights into Nice.
Am I been unreasonable in wanting to still go?
I dont think its an more dangerous now, if anything its probably less so.

Immense bravery by that motorcyclist (among many) who tried to gain entry to the lorry cabin. Apparently in now critical care - hope he pulls through.

It's a well-worn quote, but as Fred Rogers said: "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping." - The light in even the most terrible dark.

The one thing I'd love to know is how individuals can be 'brainwashed/converted' or whatever the phrase is, into doing this sort of thing. (that's if he was, & he wasn't 'just' a random nutter)
There's no way I, or anyone I know (I think) could be coerced or made to believe that killing people in the name of a religion was acceptable.
There's obviously more nutters around than we realise.

Reap what you sow. Decades of oppression of minority communities in France, plus state sanctioned religious intolerance, and oh look; someone from such a community does something extreme. What a surprise.

[i]Viktoria Savchenko (r) had been visiting Nice with her friend and university colleague Polina
Like her friend, Viktoria was a student at Moscow's elite government-run Financial University, and the university issued a statement paying its condolences to her family and friends. Ms Serebryannikova is being treated in hospital for serious injuries.

Paris tobacconist Timothe Fournier, 27, died protecting his heavily-pregnant wife, Anais. She described how he pushed her out of the path of the lorry before being struck down himself. "He was a young dreamer, but he was always there for his wife and future child," she said.

Fatima Charrihi may have been the first victim of the Nice attacks. Her son, Hamza, believed she was.
"All I can say is she wore a veil and practised Islam in the proper way. A real Islam, not the terrorists' version," he said.[/i]

Innocents all. Time the West took responsibility for it's actions.

Prick.

[i]wrecker - Member - Prick[/i].

Such amazing intellect you possess.

You just carry on revelling in the death of dozens. Reap what you sow. What a load of complete shite.

"You just carry on revelling in the death of dozens."

In what way am I 'revelling'?

Particular minority communities in France have been the victims of state oppression, disproportionate scrutiny and police brutality for years, yet you won't read about it in 'Western' media. Racism towards French citizens from former French colonies is off the scale, but you won't read about it in western media. attacks on such minority communities in France is increasingly common, but you won't read about it in Western media.

I'm 'revelling' in nothing. I'm shocked and saddened that the victims of such a product of intolerance and hate are so instantly forgotten.

@mrchrispy of course its fine to go. Flight will be safe and the chances of another atatck in rural France are pretty remote (not zero as we saw outside Paris recently but that was against a Policeman and his wife). Large scale public gatherings I would avoid at the moment.

the vast majority of victims of these terror groups are Muslims...but because they are Muslims dying at the hands of the Muslim terrorists they dont count...right?

This is undoubatbly true, the vasy majoroty of victims of Islamic extremism are other Muslims. In my view those dying count very much. There is however a difference betwen those killed in countires such as France or Belgium and those killed in Middle Eastern civil wars where people are trying to overthrow the government. It is perfectly normal that many people care more about what happens at home than in another place.
I

I dont think clodhopper is 'revelling' it, he does have a point. what is it that is making these people believe the shite? it difficult for most of us to see how it can happen but is does and we are seeing the fall out.

I've been want to post something like "F em, time to burn them off the face of the earth" but really, what would that accomplish? more hate!!
I also want to say "why the f don't they just leave us alone" but we've not really left them alone have we? that's not going to happen, the hate is so deeply embedded it'll take decades before its undone.

religion does have a lot to answer for, it has the power to do great good but it way too easy for people to use it as an excuse for evil. I think maybe its got too far now, the situation is fubar and I cant see it getting better any time soon.

Still going, going to dish out loving positive vibes and not feed the beast of fear.

Reap what you sow. Decades of oppression of minority communities in France, plus state sanctioned religious intolerance, and oh look; someone from such a community does something extreme. What a surprise.

Viktoria Savchenko (r) had been visiting Nice with her friend and university colleague Polina
Like her friend, Viktoria was a student at Moscow's elite government-run Financial University, and the university issued a statement paying its condolences to her family and friends. Ms Serebryannikova is being treated in hospital for serious injuries.

Paris tobacconist Timothe Fournier, 27, died protecting his heavily-pregnant wife, Anais. She described how he pushed her out of the path of the lorry before being struck down himself. "He was a young dreamer, but he was always there for his wife and future child," she said.

Fatima Charrihi may have been the first victim of the Nice attacks. Her son, Hamza, believed she was.
"All I can say is she wore a veil and practised Islam in the proper way. A real Islam, not the terrorists' version," he said.

Innocents all. Time the West took responsibility for it's actions.

The problem with this line of reasoning, is that depending on the timescale you want to use to define "who started this" - I could justify levelling much of the middleast.

Plenty of people have been oppressed in their day, how many whites have blacks in the US killed in the past 100 years, in the name of social justice? Is it 5?

Sorry, really, it's crocodile tears - people with oppressive beliefs that lead to fatwas against authors, complaining about oppression lol?

what is it that is making these people believe the shite?

Justifying mass murder with tales of opression is complete nonsense, and pretty shameful considering the behaviour of many middle eastern governments. These guys are in France, UK, Germany for a reason.

It seems that this chap had serious mental health issues, yet despite not completed investigations, the world leaders and press seem desperate to link it to terrorist groups pre-emtively.

I don't think we need to look to Islamism or ISIS or radicalisation or money to work out why these people do this kind of thing, I think this is the European version of US mass shootings, done by the same kinds of people for the same reasons. Social inadequates wanting to get back at society for some imagined slight, and deciding to kill lots of people for notoreity.

He had grenades and multiple automatic weapons. Doesn't sound like your average person with menatal health issues to me.

IS have claimed responsibility today although that could be simply opportunistic.

From bbc
Inside the lorry, police found one automatic pistol, bullets and two replica assault rifles, as well as another fake pistol and a dummy grenade.

He had grenades and multiple automatic weapons. Doesn't sound like your average person with menatal health issues to me.

oh, you're a mental health expert now as well?

I'd imagine that some-one who is mentally ill, and has murderous thoughts would have exactly those things in his possession, no?

MrChrispy - I'm currently in Nice airport and its business as usual. A few more gendarmes on the road than usual. France seems to be exactly the same as it was on the 13th (although we haven't been into the centre of Nice on this trip)

oh, you're a mental health expert now as well?

I'd imagine that some-one who is mentally ill, and has murderous thoughts would have exactly those things in his possession, no?

When was the last time a mentally ill person went on a totally and completely secular killing spree in the Uk and Ireland?

Dumblane?

There is a link to Islam whichever way you look at it in that he thought his 'good' book gave some jusification for his actions, and so if he died it was no matter as his actions would gain him a place in 'paradise'.

If many senior clerics were vocal and well publicised in pointing out that the quran was beng misinterpreted and that the killing of innocents was actually wrong according to the book and wouldn't result in matrydom, then such dissaffected, and possibly unhinged, people could not consider such actions as an easy ticket from their currently sh1t lives into paradise.

I haven't read the quran and maybe it is too easy to extract this interpretation from it anyway, and therefore any such dismissing cleric would be disregarded anyway.

Tuner I think in fairness many many clerics say the Quran is being misinterpreted. The hate preachers are a tiny minority certainly in the West (there is a much higher level of radicalisation elsewhere) but the internet spreads their reach far and wide.

Tuner I think in fairness many many clerics say the Quran is being misinterpreted

yes, but it is not loud enough or convincing enough.

Statement: In the UK, where our Police officers are, as a rule, un-armed, an attack like this would have been potentially unstoppable.

Discuss?

maxtorque

Statement: In the UK, where our Police officers are, as a rule, un-armed, an attack like this would have been potentially unstoppable.

Discuss?

You would have to hope/assume that either police or members of the public would use cars to stop or slow the truck. Wouldn't be viable in every situation, but then again neither would the specific circumstances of the Nice attack.

nickc

oh, you're a mental health expert now as well?

How would you assess the mental health of the 9/11 hijackers? Insane? Not insane? (bearing in mind they flew jets into buildings killing themselves and 3000 innocent people).

Seen through western secular eyes virtually every terrorist murder/suicide is an insane act or the actions of someone with mental health problems. To islamist they are rational, not to mention ...sainted martyrs.

Meh, if it happened in London I think it would be stopped fairly quickly. So many coppers around and I keep seeing what I swear to god are plain clothed squaddies on patrol. Buzzed heads, khaki boots, day bags, earpieces, walking in pairs etc

How would you assess the mental health of the 9/11 hijackers? Insane? Not insane? (bearing in mind they flew jets into buildings killing themselves and 3000 innocent people).

Seen through western secular eyes virtually every terrorist murder/suicide is an insane act.

Being legally insane and thus not being responsible for your actions is so utterly rare that it doesn't apply here. That kind of insanity is found in Schizophrenia or Psychosis - and it's not helpful either to suggest that is what caused the attack in Nice. Schizophrenics kill people at a much lower rate (barely above the average for the normal population) than Islamists do.

Tom_W1987 - Member

if it happened in London I think it would be stopped fairly quickly. So many coppers around and I keep seeing what I swear to god are plain clothed squaddies on patrol. Buzzed heads, khaki boots, day bags, earpieces, walking in pairs etc

Next time they do it the lorry will be packed full of explosives on a dead man switch.

Meh

😐

So many coppers around and I keep seeing what I swear to god are plain clothed squaddies on patrol. Buzzed heads, khaki boots, day bags, earpieces, walking in pairs etc

Hah. Fair enough wrecker - could be walty coppers I guess - or just your average American lunatic.

Doubtless doing a job, but they won't be the type that the military supply for that kind of thing. A few former colleagues are at it and their attention to detail is jaw dropping.

wrecker

"plain clothed" squaddies (who do a significant amount of work in the UK) would not look anything like your description, and they certainly wouldn't be identifiable by the average joe!

Very different to an average plain clothed cop though. I used to work in a place that had the exclusive CTW contract for the PSNI. After about a day plain clothed police became comically easy to spot.

When was the last time a mentally ill person went on a totally and completely secular killing spree in the Uk and Ireland?
Dumblane?

Cockermouth 2010.

Statement: In the UK, where our Police officers are, as a rule, un-armed, an attack like this would have been potentially unstoppable.

Discuss?

Yup. As we saw in Hungerford we are not at all ready to deal with such a situation particularly someone with an automatic weapon who'd be likley to have 1hr plus before armed responce arrived. Even with a truck attack we would have to rely on police with tasers

Massive critism in France as a max of 60 Police where on duty (public holiday?) vs say 700 who would have been on duty for a euro 2016 match. Getting very ploitical as UMP stated that he had written to Government (PS) asking why so few rescources where made available for July 14

No need for explosives. Vehicle attacks have been used in France and Austria already as well numerous fatal rammings in Israel. Sadly this was not new and the barriers and security where woefully inadequate

jimjam - Member

Next time they do it the lorry will be packed full of explosives on a dead man switch.

Not really- this dude had no capability to do that. TBH this is the scary bit about it, it's a very long overdue realisation that anyone can lay their hands on a deadly weapon, it's something that's not caught on over here. Remember the Glasgow airport "bombing"? Amateurs trying to make a bomb ended up making their 4x4 statistically less dangerous than one doing the school run. The take-home lesson from that was pretty obvious. You don't need accomplices, equipment, specific hard-to-obtain knowledge, any of that stuff which normally makes terrorist attacks hard to do. All you need is the inclination. And also, you don't need much of a target either, so it's basically impossible to police for- Bastille day was a huge event but you can find a decent sized crowd in any city in any week, you can't build a wall around everything.

OTOH, this being Britain, killing people with a vehicle is barely even an offence so maybe it'd not have the terror effect they'd hope for. Imagine the terrorist's face when he's given community service.

Sadly this was not new and the barriers and security where woefully inadequate

From the Regional Government (politically right!

I did not underestimated the risk.
As recently as the 13th of July, I sent a letter to François Hollande to attract his attention on this critical situation for our safety.
The government has a duty to respond to the questions we ask ourselves. Why in an area accessible by vehicle, was there not more ways to prevent this tragedy?
There was last night more municipal police officers than national policemen on duty.
The municipal police of Nice had arrested the author of this attack in January for acts of extremely serious violence. Delivered into the hands of justice, he was released and has not been monitored
It is the government who gave permission for opening a place of worship in Nice which belongs to the Saudi clerics advocating sharia law.
Is it that every 6 months we're going to tell us the same story? The same story for Charlie Hebdo? As for the Bataclan? And now the same story in Nice ?
The rhetoric of Mr. Cazeneuve and Mr. Holland that's enough talk. We need to lean the lessons and move on to the action.
The people are angry, and are waiting for some answers.

@captain the street could have been close to all traffic, the road blocked with concrete barriers as they use on the motorway and for example at bus stops in Israel. London has had a "ring of steel" since the days of the IRA

And?
Where and how is next? You seem to be able to predict after the event, so put your money where your mouth is.
My local police have arrested a few for violence over the last few weeks, which one of these is the next perpetrator?
You're posting reactionary bullcrap that fits a strategy of trying to scare and satisfy your own agenda. You have a position on Europe and are finding stories and writing your own headline to support this. Your Brexit posts are full of conditionals and modals of possibility (not even probability).
So go on, what's next?
Where should we increase security measures and what level would you find adequate?

the street [b]could have been[/b] close to all traffic,

Cockermouth 2010.

True but the actions of the mentally are is still nothing like the levels of Islamic terrorism seen throughout Europe and the Middle East.

I don't see why it's socially acceptable to blame it on mental illness but not religion. The latter is a choice, the formed isn't.

I don't see why it's socially acceptable to blame it on mental illness but not religion

So it's emerged that the Nice attack may have been planned for up to a year in advance by a group of at least five conspirators. It's also come to light that the killer Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel was a committed Islamist as opposed to some kind of rapidly radicalised loner.