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policing by consent
More like being willing partners with extreme unionists for decades. Very difficult to put that genie back in the bottle.
I just don’t agree with religious indoctrination of children full stop.
What do you think happens actually at 'faith' schools?
I don't know about indoctrination. How do you think kids generally respond to people banging on about Jesus? As someone who endured a Catholic education I can assure you that there is no more effective method to ensure a nation of atheists.
When you're 16 the last thing on earth you want to be doing is reading the bible (we were forced to take RE at GSCE). I took the opportunity on my final exam to ignore the questions and write a detailed appraisal of my opinion on the Catholic church. I was rewarded with a U (Unclassified) as a result. I was quite pleased with my days work. 😀
I don't know about religion, if you could put up with the RE, we just got a better standard of education than the godless heathens up the road. I would imagine thats the case for 99.999% of the people sending their kids to 'faith' schools.
Interesting fact for you: Catholic schools are particularly popular with Muslim parents.
@Dangeourbrain Tbh, up here in the west of Scotland wastelands, RC schools are pretty much the only faith schools that feature in almost every town, venture into Glasgow and You'll get schools of other faith, but not out in the sticks, which is where most of the said nitwits reside.
Crikey i really don’t know why people live in those areas, I’d be out as soon as I could to get away from all that rubbish, the violence etc.
More like being willing partners with extreme unionists for decades. Very difficult to put that genie back in the bottle.
That too.
But you see it on a smaller scale in England too - even when the police are at daggers drawn with the 'group' concerned. In some cases (and not wanting to go OT or too controversial) there is clearly a trade-off of an acceptable level of petty crime associated with a given event vs the potential implications of policing it how 'regular day to day life' might be policed. The police do weigh these things up. They have to.
Crikey i really don’t know why people live in those areas, I’d be out as soon as I could to get away from all that rubbish, the violence etc.
Can't tell if this is a joke or so unaware of the privelage you have to be able to 'just move' because you don't like it
Crikey i really don’t know why people live in those areas, I’d be out as soon as I could to get away from all that rubbish, the violence etc.
Most of the people who live there probably would too. These aren't exactly salubrious neighbourhoods with high levels of employment and the best education these Isles can offer. That's a big part of the problem in NI and anywhere else really. The "trouble" is invariably a close bedfellow to poverty.
Of course faith schools are about indoctrinating children into believing medieval myths about sky fairies. Its their only purpose in existing
No faith school should be getting any government funding.
To me faith schools are a form of child abuse. Utterly disgusting the damage they cause
we just got a better standard of education than the godless heathens up the road. I would imagine thats the case for 99.999% of the people sending their kids to ‘faith’ schools.
School with selective admissions and additional funding stream in better results shocker.
Tbh, up here in the west of Scotland wastelands,
It's fairly unavoidable that you'll end up with geographical bias but if you look close enough you always will. Of course the folks building those bonfires aren't likely to be taking a broad overview, but rather that the primary school they nearly burnt down with their leaning tower of paletza is being forced to dump its CofI affiliation and that this is yet another step towards the unwanted reunification.
I'd love to see a united Ireland tbh, but dunno if I'd wish that lot on Ireland.
I agree they would find something else to nail their bigotry to but my argument is that if you mix kids rather than treating one set as different then that's one less barrier and IMO at a far more significant stage of a person's development. Its coming anyway, the very obvious stud wall partitions between Largs Primary and St Mary's show the ambition.
This isn't an argument about catholics, this is about faith schools full stop. If it was the other way round I'd still be saying the same thing, be under no illusions.
Of course faith schools are about indoctrinating children into believing medieval myths about sky fairies. Its their only purpose in existing
No faith school should be getting any government funding.
To me faith schools are a form of child abuse. Utterly disgusting the damage they cause
Meanwhile, in the 21st century real world, both my kids went to the CodE primary here in the village, and youngest is at a Catholic academy. Despite/because of regular church services, assemblies and now Mass, neither of them are remotely religious, but they are surprisingly well educated and tolerant of those who are, regardless of which sky fairy is involved.
While there are lots of things I'd like to change about education and religious practices, the vast majority of kids coming out of religious backed schools nowadays are not manic, intolerant religious crazies who have been groomed and abused. And certainly locally, if you restrict the involvement of religious organisations, then the education provision would be much worse. They are schools supported by religious groups, not faith schools supported by the public money.
Edit - realise the situation in sleepy Englandshire is not the same as NI or Scotland and my experience worth nothing in those contexts
Of course faith schools are about indoctrinating children into believing medieval myths about sky fairies. Its their only purpose in existing
They're not very good at it then
They are schools supported by religious groups, not faith schools supported by the public money.
Bollox. Are they totally independent or do they have government funding?
Its utter nonsense to say religious schools are not about indoctrination. thats their entire purpose. Of course it will not take on some kids but religious indoctrination is the whole purpose of faith schools.
Its disgusting to me that my tax money is given to religious bigots to indoctrinate children IMO its simply child abuse to indoctrinate children in this way.
Edit - see the edit - of course thats true
@squirrelking I completely agree, but I think the folks that completely hang their hat on that being the cause are missing a lot of other factors.
When I was at primary school, St Brendans down the road had a boiler failure, and their primary 6 and 7 came to our school for several months. They started, finished and had a different break times from us. WTF is that all about? I had mates in those classes, and I never seen them at school.
Bloody bizarre.
They’re not very good at it then
And? The attempt is bad enough. Incompetent bigots are still bigots
A key teaching of the abrahamic religions is that adherents to a particular creed are "better"
Its disgusting to me that my tax money is given to religious bigots to indoctrinate children IMO its simply child abuse to indoctrinate children in this way.
When was the last time you went into a church school? In fact, when was the last time you went into any school? Unless you've got some sort of actual knowledge of what schools are teaching kids about religion, you sound a bit nutty saying this kind of stuff.
From the above, an issue is whether or not the school discriminates on faith grounds for entry purposes. Leaving aside what is taught, children being taught in mono-cultural classrooms which do not reflect the diversity of the wider community is clearly not ideal whatever steps are taken by teachers to deal with diversity issues.
The RC sixth form college across the road from us clearly doesn't discriminate, given the obvious ethnic diversity of the students. But it appears this is not the case for all RC schools in NI.
ETA and even if there isn't actual entry discrimination, if kids from different communities are sent to different schools so there is de facto segregated education, that is an issue also.
What other purpose is there to faith schools? People do not notice this stuff because its normalised. that does not mean it does not exist.
Its disgusting to me that my tax money is given to religious bigots to indoctrinate children IMO its simply child abuse to indoctrinate children in this way.
I don't think that your average RE teacher fits the description of a bigot uncle Jezza.
They're not Osama Bin Laden
In most cases, they aren't even specifically RE teachers. They just teach in a catholic school, say, so maybe they're a maths teacher who does a thing about gods* once a week
* You'll note I used the plural as if my daughters school is anything to go by, they spend as much time learning about other religions as their own.This has included visits to the local mosques and synagogues where they mix with kids their own age of other faiths and learn about their beliefs, such as they are.
That doesn't really sound very much like indoctrination, does it?
Its hardly the Hitler Youth
What other purpose is there to faith schools?
they still have to teach the national curriculum, and parents can opt their kids out of some or all of RE. Kids don't have to take an exam and they can opt out themselves at 18. Sex and relationship education is compulsory for all children from 11 yrs, which includes reproduction, sexual health and identity. It's also part of the science curriculum, and faith schools have to teach it. Yes they can slant it to their particular faith, but TBH, I've seen the same thing happen at schools where it's nominally non denominational, but the head has a practicing faith (I was head-governor at such a school)...
It's not the best ever indoctrination system if parents can opt out...
Binners
here you have to be a believer to teach in the schools and I assure you bigotry is rife. A key tenent of the abrahamic religions is that those that do not follow the creed are lessor people. thats bigotry
Its just its normalised so people do not see it.
religion is a divisive and harmful thing. Using my money to support religion is abhorrent to me.
here you have to be a believer to teach in the schools and I assure you bigotry is rife.
No offence intended here btw, but you have no kids and haven't worked in education, what are you basing this on?.
I see lots of references to Catholic/Protestant sectarianism in Scotalnd. Is this encountered anywhere in Scotland beyond Glasgow or the wider central belt? I've lived in Scotland most of my life (since Primary school) and I've never really been aware of it anywhere other than Glasgow (I stress I'm not implying this is evidence it doesn't happen!).
and I assure you bigotry is rife.
...And you know this because?
No offence intended here btw, but you have no kids and haven’t worked in education, what are you basing this on?.
It seems to be mainly old Dave Allen shows 😉
mini 750 goes to 2 schools . A non-dom and a catholic. And apart from the catholic school having a statue of a saint at the front door and a picture of the pope on the wall, I can't tell the difference.
FWIW I am not catholic and mrs 750 is a vary lapsed catholic.
Neither have any classes on bonfire building
@Mat As I've never lived anywhere else, I'm not sure but I don't think it's as prevalent. Til you get to the islands that is, they're even bloody weirder!. 🙂
mini 750 goes to 2 schools . A non-dom and a catholic. And apart from the catholic school having a statue of a saint at the front door and a picture of the pope on the wall, I can’t tell the difference.
Yep. Daughter number one goes to the Catholic high school, daughter number 2 to the non-dom one next door (their respective choices).
The schools and the teaching appear to be totally indistinguishable from one another. Neither is a hotbed of religious zealotry
A key tenent of the abrahamic religions is that those that do not follow the creed are lessor people
You just made that up. 😆
The RC sixth form college across the road from us clearly doesn’t discriminate, given the obvious ethnic diversity of the students.
The RC church is expanding fastest in Africa
A key tenent of the abrahamic religions is that those that do not follow the creed are lessor people. thats bigotry
I didn't know Quakers were such awful people
You just made that up
He'll have you for heresy, it's a key part of the Atheist faith
And you know this because?
Bigotry is a key part of abrahamic religions. Someone who does not follow that creed is a lessor person. Thats bigotry
Mat - its mainly Glasgow area because thats where the ulster cotholics were transplanted to. It appears a bit in Edinburgh but to a much lessor extent
When was the last time you went into a church school? In fact, when was the last time you went into any school? Unless you’ve got some sort of actual knowledge of what schools are teaching kids about religion, you sound a bit nutty saying this kind of stuff.
Sadly this
I'm sorry tj, but my experience, and those of other posters here, suggests your views don't reflect the modern reality of these schools.
If they were dependent on their success at indoctrination, they'd all have closed years ago, and if indoctrination was their aim, they wouldn't be oversubscribed.
Not denying the appalling things done in the name of religions over the centuries, and in their schools in the past, but attending religious backed schools would appear to have made my kids more broadminded and tolerant than you appear to be (on this subject)
Bigotry is a key part of abrahamic religions.
I'm sorry uncle Jezza - I'm no more a believer in Sky Fairies than you are - but that statement is just total and complete bollocks
Mat
Full Member
I see lots of references to Catholic/Protestant sectarianism in Scotalnd. Is this encountered anywhere in Scotland beyond Glasgow or the wider central belt? I’ve lived in Scotland most of my life (since Primary school) and I’ve never really been aware of it anywhere other than Glasgow (I stress I’m not implying this is evidence it doesn’t happen!).
Bigotry in Scotland is a bit of a misnomer. It's more tribalism between Scots and Irish that's the issue. The catholicism part of that is really just more of an indentifier of the Irish diaspora.
Many of you are missing my point. abrahamic religions are bigoted in nature. the view that a non believer is a lessor person. Religious schools reinforce this view.
I loathe the abrhamic religions because of the huge harm they do. Religious schools normalise and accept this bigotry
too many of you have stockholm syndrome over this and do not realise that your tax money is being used to reinforce religious bigotry.
I’m sorry uncle Jezza – I’m no more a believer in Sky Fairies than you are – but that statement is just total and complete bollocks
Its a key tenent of abrahamic religions that a non believer is a lessor person. thats bigotry
Are you really attempting to state that its not a key part of the religion? go read some bible. Its full of it.
Not once did I get taught other people are lesser. Mibbe that was the class after I made choice freely, aged 12 that the church wasn't for me. 😆
The schools and the teaching appear to be totally indistinguishable from one another.
I don’t know about religion, if you could put up with the RE, we just got a better standard of education than the godless heathens up the road. I would imagine thats the case for 99.999% of the people sending their kids to ‘faith’ schools.
You know that doesn't really add up dont you?
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Its a key tenent of abrahamic religions that a non believer is a lessor person...
Errr No. A key tennent of Christianity is "love thy neighbour". I won't speak for the other Abrahamic religions as I'm not well versed in their key teachings.
Theres only one person on this thread who seems to be hysterically preaching intolerance of other peoples views 😉
You know that doesn’t really add up dont you?
I wasn't being serious about the godless heathens thing. All parents want the best education for their kids. I suspect that for 99.999999% (well... everyone apart from TJ) whether its nominally catholic, C of E or whatever is neither here nor there.
Certainly wasn't for me. One daughter goes to a catholic school, one to a non-dom *(their choice)
The RC church is expanding fastest in Africa
I live in Wales.
gonefishing - Look at the quotes above your post. Non believers are seen as lessor people.
Binners - its because I lathe them for the huge amount of death and suffering they cause. From the churches preventing condom use in Africa and south america leading to huge numbers dying of aids to the immense suffering caused by their objections to dignity in dying. It abhorrent
It abhorrent
Yes, those things are abhorrent, that's not what going on at St Wilfred's CoE Junior in Tinge-on-the-Ouse though. Seriously, have some perspective.
You know that doesn’t really add up dont you
I wasn’t being serious about the godless heathens thing. All parents want the best education for their kids. I suspect that for 99.999999% (well… everyone apart from TJ) whether its nominally catholic, C of E or whatever is neither here nor there.
Sorry I should have been more selective with my cropping, I meant the "it's the same" "it's better " bit.
Any how, someone up there mentioned bonfire building classes, I think these should certainly be added to the curriculum. That thing on pg1 would be an awesome school project.
Of course it is nickc - religious schools teach that religion is a good thing and that believers are better people. Faith schools are all about indoctrinating folk into a harmful and abhorrent philosophy.
Many of you are missing my point.
I think you are missing our points
The intolerant stuff in the bible is no longer taught in these schools, in the experience of most if the people on here.
Really - are you claiming they do not follow their creed and do not teach that believers are "better". Or is it just its normalised so you do not see it?
they teach that non believers go to heaven? Really?
they no longer teach key parts of the creed? They consider non believers and believers are equal in the eyes of their sky fairy?
Have they accepted equal roles for men and women in their faith ( I do know some now do this)
Faith schools are all about indoctrinating folk into a harmful and abhorrent philosophy.
I'm not remotely religious, but I'm perfectly prepared to countenance the concept that for a lot of people spiritual belief is a positive thing in their lives, and actually enables them to do lots of good and positive things in their communities.
To dismiss them all as bigots and zealots and all religions as 'abhorrent philosophy' is quite frankly mad
religious schools teach that religion is a good thing and that believers are better people.
They really don't teach that at all. I genuinely don't know where you've got the mad idea that they do
Dear god... I never ever thought I'd find myself defending the catholic church
The good they do is far outweighed by the harm they do. People are literally dying right now in pain and distress because of religion. Mother Theresas "beautiful suffering"
Anything else that created as much physical and mental harm to people would be banned
religious schools teach that religion is a good thing and that believers are better people.
Not in my experience, and as I was a governor at a school for 5 years and was lead for 3 of those, and had a view on the curriculum and oversight of the policies that backed it up, including a quasi-legislative role about how subjects were taught, I'm going to say you're talking nonsense because you haven't a scoobie about what goes on in schools. For reference I'm as atheist as you are, and like binner's kids our RE lessons (that ALL schools have to teach, remember) were as broad as they could, and included all sorts like Shinto and Buddhism, as well as Abrahamic. We certainly didn't teach kids that they're better than others because of their belief FFS
We certainly didn’t teach kids that they’re better than others because of their belief FFS
So you taught heaven is nonsense? You taught that all people of all faiths are equal in the eyes of god? You taught that religion is an oppressive tool? You taught that non religious people can me moral and goodly?
Really - you try to claim that a religious school goes against the teachings of the church?
To dismiss them all as bigots and zealots and all religions as ‘abhorrent philosophy’ is quite frankly mad
Abrahamic religions. Not all religions.
The RE lessons at my daughters (non-dom) school appear to be more like philosophy lessons than any traditional idea of religion as a lot of people lie TJ seem to have in their heads.
Theres certainly no fiery pits of hell and damnation for heretical non-believers involved
Dear god… I never ever thought I’d find myself defending the catholic church
Well done binners!!
I went to a Catholic school as a non-chirstened non-believer. Regular mass didn't change me. I do not condone religion. OR massive bonfires!
Abrahamic religions. Not all religions.
So what are you basing the distinction on? What are non-Abrahamic religions doing differently that spares them your wrath?
For reference this was a primary-junior through school, (reception aged to11 year old) so no, we didn't teach them those things, that's not what schools do...We taught them stuff like "What do adherents to specific religions believe?", "what special foods or diets do they have?", "what and why do they have commemorative days to celebrate?"...that sort of thing. where we could we found folk to come into talk about their beliefs, Imams, Rabbis, that sort of thing
The days of thunderous pulpits and whippings are long gone.
Binners
some other non abrahamic religeons are equally nasty and oppressive. some are not. sikhism for example you are not allowed to attempt to convert others and its taught that all people believers and non believers are equal
Nickc - so you are claiming that your faith school taught that athiests and god botherers are equal? Did you teach any non religious philosophy? Did you tell them that the religions are a tool to oppress people? did you teach them that god is a manmade invention?
What are non-Abrahamic religions doing differently that spares them your wrath?
Well they're absolutely not doing anything bad. Just ask a Uyghur or a Rohingya, or any of the minorities in India for example. They'll all tell you their non-Abrahamic neighbours are brilliant.
HOw many people have died of aids because condoms are evil according to religious bigots? Millions.
.z
Non believers are seen as lessor people.
No they aren’t
Fewer?
b230ftw
I am afraid that its a basic part of the creed. Non believers do not get into heaven. Thats because they are lessor people. Of less worth. You need to read some bible. I have.
Hitler wasn’t religious - just sayin’…
TJ, these are 5-11 year olds; some of those concepts are waaaaay outside the remit of a junior school. We certainly taught about athesim, and that it's OK to not be religious. We approached all religions equally, concepts like what a philosophy is and what oppression is are a bit much at that age TBH. The curriculum isn't designed to speak to kids about these things (at this age), it's designed to give them an understanding about what religions believe, what their priests/churches are called...the nitty gritty of them rather than if they're the only gateway to ultimate salvation, y'know?
Did you teach that religions are made up medieval creeds designed to control people? Or did you teach that religion is normal and good?
did you teach them about the harm religeons do? Millions of deaths in africa because of religious teachings about condoms?
Again...these are 5-11 year old kids. so no we didn't hit on concepts like the medieval understanding of god, no.
Like I said, your understanding is totally off when it comes to what's being taught in UK schools about religion. Why don't you call a local school and get involved?
tjagain
Full Member
Did you teach that religions are made up medieval creeds designed to control people? Or did you teach that religion is normal and good?
What I remember about the catholic parts of the catholic education, was that it was mostly centred around morality and being good to other people.
Though I guess you'll believe what you want, despite other people telling you of their experiences.
ffs, for my confirmation in P7 we did a play in the chapel, it was about a story based in new york teaching us about the dangers gangs and drug abuse. 😆 fairly relevant modern day teaching giving the state of gangs and drug abuse in 90s Glasgow.
After primary, tbh any of the catholic parts were entirely voluntary and your choice if you wanted to explore further. They were pretty poor in the indoctrination department, if the truth be told.
Nickc - did you or did you not teach that god is real? did you teach that all people are equal despite it being against the religious teachings?
Of course I understand that fire and brimnstone is not taught. What I object to is any teaching that places made up myths on the same level as science.
If you did not teach them about the harm religion does then yo are not giving them a proper view of religion
When you're doing your bible reading, you should probably get around to the New Testament at some point Uncle Jezza.
Your view of christianity seems to be firmly rooted in the Book of Revelations.
You don't seem to want to hear what pretty much everyone is telling you, from their own experiences, that your idea of religious teaching is nothing whatsoever like the reality of it. Indoctrination it most certainly isn't.
so, anyone want to talk about bonfires?
TJ - I understand how your recent loss is colouring your views on this, and I understand and support you on that point.
But your views on what is taught in these schools - hell even church and Sunday schools - wasn't my experience even 40-50 years ago. (And despite church, Chapel and Sunday school, I'm not an indoctrinated believer either)
I'm not denying the legacy of interference in secular matters doesn't exist and doesn't still cause harm, and it needs to be removed.
But religion brings a huge amount of peace and hope into people's lives as well, and the majority of the local charities round here, who have done great work supporting people during the pandemic, are backed by religious groups, of all faiths and denominations.
Blinkered hatred of any group is wrong, however much you are hurting.
When I was at primary school, St Brendans down the road had a boiler failure, and their primary 6 and 7 came to our school for several months. They started, finished and had a different break times from us. WTF is that all about? I had mates in those classes, and I never seen them at school.
Bloody bizarre.
Still the case now. Different meal times and start/end times. Think they have the same break times though. As you say, bloody bizarre.
I see lots of references to Catholic/Protestant sectarianism in Scotalnd. Is this encountered anywhere in Scotland beyond Glasgow or the wider central belt? I’ve lived in Scotland most of my life (since Primary school) and I’ve never really been aware of it anywhere other than Glasgow (I stress I’m not implying this is evidence it doesn’t happen!).
It's a predominately central belt thing but definitely not confined to Glasgow. You can probably blame 60s town planning and the emptying of Glasgow for it getting to Fife though.
It probably depends on the company you keep as well. In professional settings it's probably very rare but on the floor it's a different story. I've heard more than a few eye opening stories and comments in my time.
Bigotry in Scotland is a bit of a misnomer. It’s more tribalism between Scots and Irish that’s the issue. The catholicism part of that is really just more of an indentifier of the Irish diaspora.
You can call it what you like but it amounts to the same thing. I'm not saying you're wrong in a historical sense but your typical bluenose isn't going to stop and ask for a look at someones family tree before giving them abuse. It's morphed into something so much more since the 19th century, whatever the origins were nobody except historians really concerns themselves with it. The reality is really a bunch of overgrown children with an aversion to certain colours, patterns and numbers making life shit for the adults.
To the English posters, whatever you're arguing is completely irrelevant up here. Different system with baggage you just don't have or understand (and I hope never do). Its nothing like as bad as NI but its the same nonsense.
Nickc – did you or did you not teach that god is real?
We taught kids about what people who are religious believe including stuff like which god(s) they pray to. We didn't make decisions for them. We didn't make value judgments. I know that some faith schools place an emphasis on what they believe, but the vast majority of UK schools are just teaching to the curriculum which is, as I've said, more about the nitty gritty of festivals and such like at junior school (it's reasonably age-determined, and gets more involved as kids get older)
did you teach that all people are equal despite it being against the religious teachings?
yes we had a set of principles in the school about how be nice/kind to each other (remember these are 5 years olds) which included stuff like skin colour, eating habits, religious beliefs and so on. As I've said many times now, we didn't make value judgements about religion. We just told kids what they are.
Like as I said, why don't you get in touch with a local school, and talk to them about becoming a governor? That way you'd have more of an insight into something you're clearly passionate about, but seem to have no idea as to the reality of.
The reality is really a bunch of overgrown children with an aversion to certain colours, patterns and numbers making life shit for the adults.
Perhaps, but it is rooted in a very real history (and not ancient history) of anti Irish discrimination that Scotland still refuses to barely acknowledge even existed.
Faith schools wouldn't exist if the people in charge of them didn't think they were serving the goals of that faith. Seems pretty simple to me... A school's job is to teach.
TJ's over the top as usual but, I used to visit a lot of schools... Being asked "are there a lot of catholics at your university, will I be able to fit in" and also "are there a lot of protestants at your university" threw me the first time I got it, but I had to get used to it. Having a kid tell me that she was thinking of doing biochemistry, because her teacher had told her she shouldn't do medicine because she'd have to agree to do abortions, that one threw me far enough to complain to the school, which it turned out was the first time my team had ever complained to a school about careers guidance they'd given out. I'd heard that nonsense before but only from knuckledraggers.
Hitler wasn’t religious – just sayin’…
No, he was vegetarian! Make of that what you will.