You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
@poly The group you refer too is now a minority (and not too big a one) if my mid-Ulster raised, Protestant in-laws are anything to go by. They are scathing of the DUP and it's political naïveté and they all have Irish passports now. It's effectively a "done deal" for them.
They don’t give a shit about brexit or politics (non religious) , they just hate catholics.
Actually, I reckon you have that mostly back to front!
They might dress it up as a hate for "catholicism" or celebrating the triumphs of "protestants in the past" but there's so little between the ideologies of Catholics and Protestants (especially hardcore NI protestants!) today compared to the differences with the atheists and the other religions than it makes absolutely no sense. This is tribalism, based on deep-seated fueds that have run for hundreds of years. Its very much about the politics of NI, which resemble nothing of the politics of Britain; links to religion in those politics are strong but by and large they are not the fuel for the fire. Brexit exacerbates those politics.
The marching and the sectarian divide spills into lowland Scotland too. I've never met a single catholic or protestant who could explain their dislike for the other on the basis of religion - it has always been about politics, football, terrorism, history (probably mistold), flag-waving nationalism, and a bizarre obsession with a 95-year-old woman who lives in a fancy house in London. The fact it has sweet FA to do with religion maybe even clearer in Scotland as church attendances are so low, but I assure you that for the vast majority it has nothing really to do with "Hating Catholics" (probably just as well for the new king of the union flag wavers is apparently Catholic!) although that might be an easy lazy label to throw at people who support reunification, and when the rest of the UK wakes up to that, and realises that the divide there is about a special type of politics and how people on both sides of that divide are treated not just by the otherside but by their supposed allies elsewhere in the London then they'll maybe be able to get on with working out the mess that the Union is rapidly becoming.
However, I'd be amazed if without some change in UK position, there isn't a growing interest in Unification even amongst traditional "catholic haters"!
UK governments have contributed to the division there for decades
Erm, this shit show has been going on for over 300years. "The Troubles" are a UK media term to describe the chaos since the 60s but it's been a mess for an awful long time.
Northwind Full Member
Ah but just imagine the size of the hedgehog in there
Dinsdale!
Poly - which school did you go to 😉
My solution? deport all the ulster protestants back to west coast scotland and all the west coast catholics back to Ulster.
My solution? deport all the ulster protestants back to west coast scotland and all the west coast catholics back to Ulster.
Send them back to where they came from?
@ElShalimo out by more than a factor of 2! 1170 was when it all kicked off and it went downhill from there.
TJ is right. It worked really well in India
TJ is right. It worked really well in India
Pah!
Mere collateral damage (>1m dead, I believe).
As long as it is happening to 'someone else somewhere else' then meh.
Or so the mentality of the Brexiteer goes.
And don't for one second think that the English Nationalists who still have a boner for Brexit regard NI as part of 'us'.
@Sandwich - I said "over 300years" so I'm still correct 😜
We'll not be falling out over this though will we??
Poly – which school did you go to 😉
I went to a school in Glasgow where pupils literally used to nick cutlery from the school canteen to go and fight the "other" school in the local park at lunchtimes - it was them and us, religion was not the main factor and I'm sure those sort of battles would have happened whatever label was used to define the schools. The fact we continue to segregate schools is outrageous as it simply fuels the sectarianism - but I'm of the belief that the vast majority of that is NOT about true religious hatred, and is just idiot tribalism, and people asking that question on the west of Scotland in 2021 are not trying to discriminate against Catholics, but looking for people "like them".
Send them back to where they came from?
I don't think TJ was being serious!
I wasn't either, I don't think for a minute that's where he was going with that.
I think TJ would be on thin ice if he was arguing for deporting quarrelsome people back to their ancestral homelands...
poly
Free Member
The fact we continue to segregate schools is outrageous as it simply fuels the sectarianism
Never does take long for someone to bring up this utter nonsense.
Hows that nonsense? 🤔
Well the argument is that faith schools cause bigotry. I went to a faith school, never got taught a bigoted thing in it. It's really not my fault if people hate me cause of the school I attended.
I thought the point was more that it would make it likely you only had friends of the same denomination as you, not that the schools had bigotry on the curriculum.
Thanks MCTD, I missed that, very good. I was talking to a builder out there during the troubles (double security front door/porch etc) and he explained although he was having to pay tributes to both sides, it was tax deductible!
I didn't believe my mate's brother when he mentioned paying cash so that his business wouldn't be burned down (large business in ballymena, if from there you'd know it ), especially so when he said it was done with the knowledge that he could claim it back as a legitimate business expense - the thought of such a state sanctioned protection racket is absurd yet it still goes on.
Pay us money or we'll burn your business then if you still don't pay we'll burn your house then if you still don't pay we'll shoot you.
I thought the point was more that it would make it likely you only had friends of the same denomination as you
Yup, this is what I feel as well having been ‘lucky’ enough to attend tim and proddy schools
grum
Free Member
I thought the point was more that it would make it likely you only had friends of the same denomination as you, not that the schools had bigotry on the curriculum.
Well naw, I would happily come home and play fitba and whatever else with every body else in the scheme I lived in. 😆 We don't live in an apartheid country. Bit different story in the north though when you've got peacewalls, entirely separate communities and the like, but those are not the result of schools.
Well the argument is that faith schools cause bigotry
No its not. Its that segregated schools do nothing to prevent it and help to further-entrench established points of view by simple virtue of teaching you from day 1, you are not the same. It does not matter if that school is segregated on the basis of faith, sex, skin colour, language, skull size, wealth or anything else the act of segregation enforces that you're different.
I went to a faith school, never got taught a bigoted thing in it
Did you somehow go through your entire education at a school with a selective admissions policy based on faith without ever learning why you were allowed to go and someone else wasn't?
There's no selective admissions policy for catholic schools.
If schools are the problem. Why don't catholic schools cause issues in England for example?
Because all we have to do to get in is pretend to go to church for a couple of weeks, then we forget about religion for the rest of our lives 😉
And the Church of England isn't so much a religion as the box you tick that says 'none of the above'
So no different than up here then.
There’s no selective admissions policy for catholic schools.
If you're talking GB, my experience was that our local Catholic school was selective, contained some throwback bullying staff and was deeply hypocritical.
We (My family) are "nominally" CofE which is the difference between GB and NI. The NI Catholic schools didn't tend to have any CofI pupils. Truly mixed schools were few and far between when Mrs Sandwich was at school there.
@ElShalimo no worries, I learned something researching my answer!
So no different than up here then.
Less flags, probably.
Sandwich
Full MemberIf you’re talking GB
My experience is limited to Scotland.
Well the argument is that faith schools cause bigotry.
That's not what I said. They fuel it - and I don't place the blame for that directly with the faiths and certainly not with the schools. But the idea that the school you go to is determined by the religion of your parents* is bonkers. It means that people from a very young age realise they are different from others (for better or worse). It means that people who go to the non-faith school get far less contact with people from the religions who go to the faith schools and thus create a less diverse experience.
Imagine if we had a school system that encouraged kids of a particular skin colour to a different school from the rest - then even if those kids were thriving (or possibly doing slightly better) you'd hardly be surprised if you never seem to get rid of conflict between the different groups.
I went to a faith school, never got taught a bigoted thing in it.
That may be true, it may even be true of almost all faith schools. In fact, it's probably even true for almost all non-faith schools. But what we learn at school is not just what's taught by the school.
It’s really not my fault if people hate me cause of the school I attended.
Nobody has ever suggested it's the fault of the pupils.
Its the fault of a system/government which has both allowed the Church of Scotland to have far too much involvement in the non-denominational schools and the fault of all the Churches for being complicit in it.
*Lets not pretend that at 5 you have any choice in your own religion.
You'll believe what you believe I guess. You are wrong though.
I think TJ would be on thin ice if he was arguing for deporting quarrelsome people back to their ancestral homelands…
Oops
I went to school in Glasgow and IMO there is no doubt that the sectarian divide in schools led to tribalism and "othering" a long time ago now tho
My experience is limited to Scotland.
Then why are you commenting on NI schools?
One wonders why they ever tried to desegregate schools in Jim Crowe-era USA.
I think they should put faith schools on the pyre, after all they cause all these problems. I remember my Catholic school lessons, it was how to despatch a Protestant silently, how to destabilise families of other creeds etc. It was deffo a training ground for hatred, terrorism and general nastiness
🤦
Actually that's wrong, it's just that place I did my GCSEs and made friends at
But what we learn at school is not just what’s taught by the school.
This is a such a valid point and one that can't be overestimated.
My experience of a faith based school is much more limited - I lasted 3 days in one as a trainee teacher in the 90's. I was assigned to it by the university along with my friend Hitesh, a hindu.
Day one introduced to the headmaster in his study. He took 1 look at Hits and said 'Well, I'm guessing you are not a Catholic?' and then to me 'And you son?'. I explained I was an atheist.
Day 2, introduced to the tutor group we were meant to be working with and the tutor (who we had not met until 10 seconds before outside the room) said words to the effect (in a joke, no joke tone) - "Now Mr X here is a Hindu and Mr Convert there is a sneaky atheist so careful what you say boys and watch out for them trying to 'turn you'."
Day 3 - a 1 hour morning assembly with a sermon about how lucky the boys were to be born (born I note, not chosen to be obvs) catholics and how amazeballs god was and how you'd have to be a muppet to not see this. Lots of meaningful glances in our direction from the stage.
That was enough for us, we clearly weren't welcome. So back to the uni and got ourselves reassigned. Teacher training is hard enough as it is without that shit too. Would the kids have had the nuance to pick up on this going on - no idea. But as an institution, it can do one.
after all they cause all these problems.
I don’t think anyone is saying this, are they?
Comparing faith schools in rUK to those in NI with the added context of sectarianism, and a past history as an apartheid region is pointless.
.Underhill
Full Member
My experience is limited to Scotland.Then why are you commenting on NI schools?
They weren't just brought up solely in relation to ni.
As for ni specifically. Do I see a need for desegregation over there absolutely. The peace walls need to come down. How you achieve that may in some circumstances mean you look at schools at certain flash points. But is it an argument the whole sale dismantling of catholic schools. No absolutely not. It's more an argument for shard campuses and an understanding rather than trying to dismantle fairly benign things.
You don't create peace and dismantle divides by attacking the other side.
Similarly I don't even think people should bother their arse about orange marches either. Or bonfires. They happen. They are largely inconsequential. And they only offend ye if you let them.
This thread is way off track - has anyone gone early and lit it yet? That'd be funny
has anyone gone early and lit it yet? That’d be funny
From what I have read the one good thing about these bonfires is it keeps all the orange order nutters out of trouble for a couple of weeks before since they are busy with 24 hour guard on them.
Fire a flaming arrow a la funeral pyre boats in Vikings?
Fire a flaming arrow a la funeral pyre boats in Vikings?
Good idea grum 🙂
There’s no selective admissions policy for catholic schools.
There is. Ask any Scottish local authority where their catholic school is oversubscribed and they'll tell you the policy. My local one is: "Baptised Roman Catholic children will be given priority for admission to Roman Catholic schools."
If schools are the problem. Why don’t catholic schools cause issues in England for example?
Interesting question. Is it not a problem, or is it just a lower "concentration" and less obvious?
Of course in England there are other faith schools, so it's not quite as simple as "Catholic" and "we assume you're Protestant", there is also much more fighting / scrambling to go to different schools, so potentially more mixing among kids in the local area anyway?
If schools are the problem. Why don’t catholic schools cause issues in England for example?
a) No one said schools are the only problem.
b) in England there isn't the same history of sectarianism as in Scotland, because there isn't the history of colonisation by one group
I thought this stuff was pretty obvious and not even controversial
b) in England there isn’t the same history of sectarianism as in Scotland, because there isn’t the history of colonisation by one group
There's no history of colonisation in Scotland. Scotland is more about the movement of people into Scotland and the attitudes toward that group. Schools here are a consequence of that, not the cause.
There’s no selective admissions policy for catholic schools.
and to quote POLY - there most certianly is an admissions policy for catholic schools... If you're not bothering the big man regularly, you're not coming in.. plus a load of other stuff - and it needs proof like the local priest to back you up with a letter and all sorts.. bonkers really.
Also, my local school (which my daughter is going to as she ticks all of the boxes) -has refused a child who quite literlly lives opposite the school and their mum works there - but she's doesn't atttend church... so yep - very selective..*
caveat unless you bung em a load of money - they like that -that's what all the rich folk are doing and saving them selves a few quid by not going to the local £7K a term privates!
Covenants?
There’s no history of colonisation in Scotland. Scotland is more about the movement of people into Scotland and the attitudes toward that group. Schools here are a consequence of that, not the cause.
Interesting, if irrelevant to the point raised wrt separation of communities in NI at primary school level.
There’s no history of colonisation in Scotland.
I'm talking about the colonisation of Northern Ireland by lowland Scots, obviously, and the overspill of issues around that back in Scotland itself. Plantation of Ulster etc.
Again I thought that much was obvious.
Scotland is more about the movement of people into Scotland and the attitudes toward that group. Schools here are a consequence of that, not the cause.
I mostly agree but I think its more complex than that. Almost all schools were originally set up by the churches. The involvement of the church in today's schooling is a legacy to that. But just because something has been that way for >100 years isn't a reason to keep it. You could just about see why when the church paid for the building etc - but weirdly it remains even when the state build a new school. Whether it was the Catholic Church wanting to make sure that their youngsters were properly educated and not exposed to Protestant indoctrination or the Church of Scotland not wanting the Catholic kids taking up spaces in their classrooms it doesn't really matter - 100 years later segregating kids on the basis of religion does nothing to help understanding or break down barriers. We propagate this segregation today.
Not only are they allowed to select pupils on religion, unless it changed fairly recently, they can also use it to select staff! Imagine that in any other workplace...
If schools are the problem. Why don’t catholic schools cause issues in England for example?
Oh I don't know, could it be the lack of proximity to an Orange Lodge?
I work with folk day in day out that come out with the self perpetuating bigoted shit that you claim doesn't exist. Folk that kick off and go speak to the teacher because their wean got put in the green reading group. 'Nae fenians/huns' on Tinder profiles, starting fights with folk for singing the wrong team songs then not understanding why they "acted like dicks" ever after. And the latest delight, 'Rangers Action Force: Armed and Ready' stickers appearing on street furniture, kids play parks and, of course, the Catholic school sign. And that's not even the 3 towns with the obligatory UB tag on every sign on the way in.
You repeatedly deny this exists but it does, in my face, every ****ing day. Comments made about the colour of the ****ing t-shirt you're wearing, car you drive or any number of other mundane things weaponised by bigotry. Othering children at 5 leaves a lasting impression, my daughter is on a shared campus but you wouldn't know it.
deadlydarcy
Free Member
Interesting, if irrelevant to the point raised wrt separation of communities in NI at primary school level.
It's not really irrelevant it's worth mentioning, cause people conflate different issues and don't really understand that they have different histories. and we get the whole catholic schools "question" over here, as if scotland has the same segregation issues as NI.
I still don't think dissolution of catholic schools in NI is a solution btw, that's an attack on one side and completely counter productive.
Almost all schools were originally set up by the churches. The involvement of the church in today’s schooling is a legacy to that
If you look into it this seems more of a myth. Whilst initially schools were built by the churches and other organisations such as the guilds by about 1850 it was clear that they werent up to the task of educating the entire country.
There was lots of arguments during that period about how education should be provided and various compromises made. For part of that time the C of E in particular was opposed to state involvement even though it was failing to deliver the level of education required although eventually they realised they had lost and switched to trying to retain a decent amount of power.
One of the outcomes of this was in the 1870 act there was a provision for grants covering the cost of the new schools available to the churches which they used extensively vastly increasing the number of church schools.
I went to a state-secondary school in Glasgow. The catholic kids went to a different school, except those that had been expelled and ended-up at our school. I had lots of catholic friends, but it was the level of bigotry by the bowler-hatted, sash-wearing fraternity that was by far the worst - one classmate was pictured on the front pages kicking the head of a Celtic fan after a pitch invasion at an old-firm match circa 1979. I made a few trips to Northern Ireland in the early 80's - that was an eye-opener, being stopped at an Army checkpoint in Newry and the recognition that 'the troubles' were often used as a front for organised crime, smuggling petrol, cigarettes and drugs. Any re-introduction of differing tariff regimes will between the EU and UK will no doubt re-introduce the smuggling.
Almost all schools were originally set up by the churches.
Hmmm, some of the earliest schools may have been (or privately funded and managed by the church, as my local one was), but it's been almost 150 years since most primary education was brought under control of the state in England and Wales. I'd reckon that most schools currently existence were originally set up by public agencies of some type or another.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_boards_in_England_and_Wales
anyway these pallets, how do they get away with burning them? Is it a case its better to let them get on with it rather than interfere and risk a riot?
anyway these pallets, how do they get away with burning them? Is it a case its better to let them get on with it rather than interfere and risk a riot?
In simple terms yes, although as I understand it the issue is not "risk a riot" but rather "almost certainly" end up with large scale problems - and potentially personal attacks on the individuals (or their families) who make such a decision. On a visit to a friend in Belfast I was surprised that people put up with the painting of kerbs etc outside their houses, until it was explained that if you got caught removing them it could result in a knee capping! Worryingly the last time I was in Armadale (the weekend Rangers won the league) it was looking remarkably similar - it was hard to believe every house I passed was delighted with the redecoration, and the police seemed to be working on contain rather than disperse the crowd!
poly
Free MemberAlmost all schools were originally set up by the churches.
I doubt that very much.
Almost all schools were originally set up by the churches. The involvement of the church in today’s schooling is a legacy to that
Yeah, I didn't word that well. I should have said "the original schools" clearly not most of today's schools. I tried to say that but got the emphasis wrong.
I still don’t think dissolution of catholic schools in NI is a solution btw, that’s an attack on one side and completely counter productive.
If you thought I was arguing for dissolution of catholic schools in NI when I first mentioned schools you misread what I wrote. I was referring to schools in Scotland. There are of course arguments for it in NI too, but I'm not naive enough to think that is politically something that would be viable in the short term. To be clear I'm also not saying catholic schools are the problem - its the involvement of religion in schools at all (so called non-denominational schools have acts of religious worship expected by law) - you don't just get rid of catholic schools, you get rid of state funding for any religious worship etc in schools (not outlawing "RE" so people can learn about all religions/beliefs).
I know you were talking about Scotland.
It still boils down to an attack on the catholic community, when the question is framed in Scotland or NI. Let's no kid anyone on about that.
If you want to chip your wares in with the orange mob. Batter in.
Mix them up. let the children decide what's what and who's who, not the bitter auld dinosaurs living out their past vicariously through them.
They're stuck in the mud, a couple of generations of all mixed schools and we'd be well on the way out of it.
I know you were talking about Scotland.
It still boils down to an attack on the catholic community, when the question is framed in Scotland or NI. Let’s no kid anyone on about that.
If you want to chip your wares in with the orange mob. Batter in.
Away tae **** is it.
It still boils down to an attack on the catholic community, when the question is framed in Scotland or NI.
That's a perverse reading of the argument for desegregating and secularising schools - esp when it's Prod schoolkids that are on the minority in NI and Catholic schoolkids that are in the minority in Scotland.
Prod schoolkids that are on the minority
Fairly recent that. The argument generally doesn't centre around faith schools though it centres around catholic schools.
I understand the faith arguments and separation and could get on board if I thought that where this generally comes from, I'm personally non religious. But it isn't.
It still boils down to an attack on the catholic community
Um... no. What a bizarre thing to say.
Nothing bizarre about it, if you understand the reality of the conversation.
At the moment it's Catholic schools and schools so by disbanding the former and not the latter that is an attack on one and not the other.
The arguement about whether education should be secular is not an argument, it should but it's not and therein lies the problem.
Id love to see a rogue 70mph gust while those bellends are up there.
At the moment it’s Catholic schools and schools so by disbanding the former and not the latter that is an attack on one and not the other.
Removal of a weird historical quirk/privilege for a religious sect isn't an attack. The idea that the institutionally child-abusing Catholic church should be in charge of young children at all is absurd tbh.
But it is if a ruling is applied to one group and not another especially if you are within that group that is the tribalism of human nature ( mountain bikers must have number plates but road cyclists don't need to).
The second half of that post is ridiculous. In my limited experience the actual church has little to do with the in class experience of pupils, tweaks to daily structure possibly a different approach to religious studies and feast days but it's not a peado pick n mix.
I don't generally agree with having faith schools, but that's another conversation really, they can't be blamed for these bawbags behaviour. Catholic schools do not cause nitwits to be nitwits, they find a way, and will hang their hat on any suitable cause.
Help for heroes, brexit, indyref, palestine, US politics.... the list is endless, they always feel as if they have to be on a different side from them.
I'm talking about Scotland, I wouldn't really like to comment on NI as I'm not in any way an expert on what goes on over there, and tbh I don't really want to know either.
The second half of that post is ridiculous. In my limited experience the actual church has little to do with the in class experience of pupils, tweaks to daily structure possibly a different approach to religious studies and feast days but it’s not a peado pick n mix.
I never claimed it was but the idea that a vastly rich, corrupt organisation that has systematically covered up child abuse for centuries should be even nominally responsible for things like education, care homes, adoption etc is bonkers to me. And no they're not the only ones.
If I had a dog in this fight it wouldn't be anti-catholic, my granny was a Celtic supporter from Glasgow. I just don't agree with religious indoctrination of children full stop.
Anyway, not very relevant to the topic so I'll shut up.
At the moment it’s Catholic schools and schools so by disbanding the former and not the latter that is an attack on one and not the other.
By "[word other than Catholic] school" do you mean a non-denominational school? And is that de facto or de jure non-denominational?
anyway these pallets, how do they get away with burning them? Is it a case its better to let them get on with it rather than interfere and risk a riot?
Yes. It is a scary manifestation of what happens when policing by consent is stretched to the limit.
Daft question, but when did anyone (other than those saying you can't) suggest getting rid of catholic schools? The only suggestions I can see say faith schools, one is not synonymous with the other. Faith schools would include Cof?? Muslim, Jewish and so on.
For my money I'd add private and single sex to the list too but that's way off the already distant topic.
Edit, I take the point that there are more catholic schools than others in NI but suggesting that getting rid of faith schools is anti Catholic is ridiculous. If you ban single sex golf clubs, given they're almost exclusively male only, it's that an attack on men or simply recognition of the fact segregation is nonsense? Now if you banned got rid of catholic schools but not CofI ones then absolutely that's anti catholic but it's not what anyone - outside of the sorts of folks building those bonfires - is suggesting.