[Closed] Nhs balls up!

Would your treatment have changed at all? How bad was/is the fracture? When I fractured mine I was sent on my way as normal as it wasn't worth casting.

So more "NHS do follow up investigation and find injury not immediately obvious on x-ray when patient first presented" perhaps?

Contact PALS at the hospital if you want answers.

Surely that's "a doctor" balls up not the entire NHS?

Shame, I was expecting to hear of something amusing being left inside someone after an op!

at the time of the treatment did you make them aware of pain in your leg akin to a fractured bone?

They can only work on the information they are given from the patients, you cant expect them to spot everything.

East Lancashire nhs consultant cock up and gp for not looking into it more. I should of been none weight bearing for 6 weeks but I started to treat it on gp's advice as a ligament tear and exercise it till mri scan. I did say however to the A&E consultant that the pain was around the lateral aspect of my knee so lcl tear but he ordered a xray of tibia and that was fine and told me ligament tear/knee sprain and to nwb for two weeks then exercise.

Fracture is on the fibula head.

What would be embarrassing is if you were an Orthopaedic nurse.

Just to be controversial - was the fracture visible on XR - an XR may be normal in the presence of a fracture....

were you advising the doctor what the problems were at the time of inspection?

Yeh the NHS phucks things up sometimes. So do accountants, lawyers, teachers, policemen, umpires, priests, you and your immediate family. What's your point exactly?

You could try one of those no win no fee claims - but they would probably tell you that you didnt have a leg to stand on......... 🙂

*applauds *

at the time of the treatment did you make them aware of pain in your leg akin to a fractured bone?

They can only work on the information they are given from the patients, you cant expect them to spot everything.

If you've never fractured a bone before, how would you know that the pain you're experiencing is akin to it?

well you would know that you have a pain and you would know where it is located. it wouldnt be for you to determine its a break, but let the doctor know all your feelings of pain and where they are, and let them sort it out from there simple really.
and I think an orthoapedic nurse would know

well you would know that you have a pain and you would know where it is located. it wouldnt be for you to determine its a break, but let the doctor know all your feelings of pain and where they are, and let them sort it out from there simple really.

Yes as easy as that.

If only.

He is a student nurse, so you'd expect him to know a little about what he may have done to himself.

I'm guessing it wasn't the NHS's fault he fractured it and he's still alive, so I don't think there's any need for alarm here.

so a student nurse is on here slagging off a named nhs trust?

does this count as whistleblowing under the revised rules?

He is a student nurse, so you'd expect him to know a little about what he may have done to himself.

Sure he said he's an RCN but yes he'd should have a better idea than a man off the street but knee injuries can be difficult to diagnose.

One can only suggest naivety in his defence; as time goes on he will learn that many things in healthcare are not as straightforward as they appear.

Only been qualified 12 months and having never fractured anything before its a new experience. But if my tibia was x rayed and having seen lots of tibia x rays at work the fibula is highly visible and fail to understand how it was missed. I appreciate people make mistakes, the way I got the injury was through my total lapse in concentration on my motorbike.

Speak with PALS ask to see the Xray sometimes they're not that obvious.

Don't whatever you do look up your own X-rays; you can and will get sacked and maybe worse for it!

Don't whatever you do look up your own X-rays; you can and will get sacked and maybe worse for it

[b]Crap[/b], apply to see and obtain copies of your xrays and medical notes under the data protection act, there is a small charge.

Well after 8 weeks of thinking my ligaments in my knee hadn't healed I got the results of my mri scan, ligaments are fine but I have been walking about with a fractured fibula for 8 weeks. So Royal Blackburn hospital have cocked up. They x rayed my tibia which also shows the fibula on a x ray and completely missed the fracture. Not amused at all

Do they not have a system of anonymous reporting of mishaps and near-misses, as pilots do, in order that improvements can be made without too much personal grief?

Crap, apply to see and obtain copies of your xrays and medical notes under the data protection act, there is a small charge.

He's talking about the OP using his work login to view his on X-ray rather than applying.

Well after 8 weeks of thinking my ligaments in my knee hadn't healed I got the results of my mri scan, ligaments are fine but I have been walking about with a fractured fibula for 8 weeks.

Still fractured after 8 weeks? And NWB for 6 weeks? With an assumedly minimal/non-displaced fracture - you sure?

What's the real story?

bwfc4eva868 - Member

But if my tibia was x rayed and having seen lots of tibia x rays at work the fibula is highly visible and fail to understand how it was missed.

Not the same, but you could only see my hip fracture on one of the 3 xrays that was taken. They were shooting for and looking for something else in this case. You need to see the original films before drawing any sort of conclusions- few quid for a data protection submission.

No need for any data protection stuff, and probably no need for any pitchforks. Just get an appointment with the consultant orthopod that you are under and ask to be shown the X-ray, then ask if it's obvious, and if so, why it wasn't spotted.

You might get an apology if it was staring someone in the face, but it's more than likely that it didn't really show up.

Project; the NHS are committed to data security in a very big way, and looking at any patient info that you are not entitled to, even your own, is a serious breach of policy which is dealt with using a big HR hammer.

He's talking about the OP using his work login to view his on X-ray rather than applying.

now that would be illegal using your work login and would be recorded, as if any memebr of staff doing that could alter their medical records or prescribe treatments they thought they needed

Data protection act is your mate and its legal and keeps you in a job.

Exactly Crikey.

Speak to PALS or indeed if you know them well enough, work in the same hospital, then have a chat with them.

crikey - Member

No need for any data protection stuff, and probably no need for any pitchforks. Just get an appointment with the consultant orthopod that you are under and ask to be shown the X-ray, then ask if it's obvious, and if so, why it wasn't spotted.

Good point, well made.

I do hope the injury wasn't caused by some incompetence such as failing to maintain control of ones bicycle. 🙂

Glupton fracture has only been spotted on the mri scan I had last Wednesday, was rung by the doctor to come and discuss results today. I should of been nwb for 6 weeks but I've been walking with pain obviously since week three of injury.

And avdave yes the accident was caused by my incompetence haha.

fwiw sponging_machine off here broke his fibula during a 24 hour race, rode another three hours on it and it wasn't diagnosed for 3-4 weeks afterwards iirc. He is a dietician and mrs is a physio. So yes sometimes they are hard to spot and the symptoms patient expreiences are not as per many other fractures. Also, as mentioned above you don't necessarily to cast or repair all fibula fractures (iirc big factor is how far up the fracture is): when you go in and discuss with the doctor, you may find that weight-bearing aside, the rest of the treatment (if any!) you should have recieved is not that different from the treatment you did recieve. This doesn't make it less of a mistake, but it may help to feel you haven't lost quite so much in recovery time or outcome/prognosis.

Also: poor thread title. I expect if one of your colleagues made a mistake of similar gravity at work, you wouldn't like your whole team (including yourself of course) tarred with the same brush, let alone your whole hospital or the organisation you work for. 😕

On a related topic - data protection - I'm not sure if there's been some shake up lately but I've noticed a huge difference in my dealings with some hospitals both in a professional and personal context.

I can't go into the professional stuff but on a personal note, my 5 year old son has a medical condition that requires him to go to hospital to be weighed, measured, bloods etc. This happens every 6 months and they plot his data on a chart/percentile graph. So, the time before last he was being measured and I was curious about his growth rate; comparing the data gives a clue whether his medication is working. I made the fatal error of having a look..! Wow, the reaction I got was unbelievable. I was spoken to like a complete cretin and told under no uncertain circumstances that due to data protection I must not look at my son's data and must make a formal written application to look at it. What a load of Guff.

I'm convinced that when certain staff members are unsure of things or simy can't be arsed they put "data protection" barrier up. Folk are so uncertain of this legislation they don't challenge it.

Aye poor title choice it should be East Lancs nhs balls up. I'm gonna just rest it till I see fracture clinic next week and hopefully what's shown is the bone has healed and that's showing up. Wondered why it was bloody sore walking. My boss is disgusted and told me to complain. Matron on orthopaedics surgery.

I once underwent surgery under full anesthetic for the surgeon to retrieve a big R shaped metallic object embedded in my leg to be told post-op that this was in fact the marker system used by the Radiographer to indicate which leg it was. You've guessed it, it was my right leg. It transpires that the reviewing A&E Dr was an agency temp' who didn't know about the marking system.

That's genius! I almost checked myself out of A&E with my hip bust, because when they took the x-rays, the technician took a look and said "Yep, that's all fine, nothing wrong there". Turned out he meant "These are BRILLIANT x-rays"

I'm convinced that when certain staff members are unsure of things or simy can't be arsed they put "data protection" barrier up. Folk are so uncertain of this legislation they don't challenge it.

10-15 years ago it was pretty standard to have all sorts of staff in a folder at the end of a patient's bed, and the medical notes and x-rays (as in big flappy sheets not on the computer) were often kept in unlocked notes trolleys in the corridor.

Yet the last clinical governance/record keeping training/update thingy I had (I R a nurse BTW) a few weeks ago they was a fairly 'hot' debate on just that, ie patients or relatives (in my case usually parents) seeing even food/fluid/BP/blood sugar etc charts, care plans and so on. I was suprised at how rigidly my trust seems to expect us to adhere to this these days: I wonder if there is something bigger/national going on with respect to this.
Also fwiw where I work we routinely 'copy in' patients and their parents to care plans and 6-weekly reports. In fact sometimes my reports are more like a 'letter to the whole family' which other professionals get to read too. 😀
In my previous job (community mental health nurse) I would frequently (but not always: it was an interesting job with a lot of folk who didn't think there was anything wrong with them and wished I would leave them alone) CC the patient in when I wrote to GP's about them.

The consultant who is looking after my lad was completely disgusted. The whole point of our visits was to use these charts for comparison. That he's only 5 years old and that I'm his father and legal guardian seemed to go straight over this persons head - that she thought only the consultant and the 5 year old had a right to see it and not Daddy was baffling.

A few year back my broken ankle was missed by A&E.

I could just about hobble round on it, so went to the walk in centre (yes, whilst marvelling at the irony of the name and my condition). The nurse there had a look and was familiar with injuries caused by stupid middle aged mountainbikers who should know better. She said she couldn't say for sure what was wrong, but I should get myself straight to A&E. I asked 'is it broken?' She replied that she 'couldn't say one way or the other, but off to A&E with you right away!' Faur enough I thought, so off I went.

At A&E, they took a cursory glance at it, said it's probably sprained, should be right in 2-3 weeks. Off I go, thinking this bloody hurts more than any sprain I've had before.

Anyway, best part of 4 months later, it still hurts and is still swollen, so after badgering my GP I get a GP X-Ray referral. X-Ray is duly taken and a couple of radiographers seem quite interested and after some pointing and discussion come back to me and casually announce that the X-Rays are good and the 'fracture clinic will deal with you directly as an urgent referral'. Great, at least something will happen now.

Oh, but it didn't, the urgent referral was anything but! After another week and Mrs Feet standing in the GP surgery and announcing she wasn't leaving until someone says whats happening, I get a GP appointment.

I go for the appointment.
'Hello Mr Feet, what can I do for you?'
'Err, my ankle, the X-Ray, you said I had to see you ASAP?'
'Oh yes, it's broken, you need to make an appointment at the fracture clinic, I'll fax a referral for you'

So another week later I'm in the Fracture clinic.
See a nice chap who seems to be the consultant. He shows me the X-Ray. 3 very obvious breaks!!
Luckily everything had stayed in the right position and since it had been so long, it was all knitting back nicely, so just need a load of physio.

Mrs Feet was livid and I have all manner of people saying I should sue them. Well, I'm just happy that I didn't need a hideous op to put it right and, I missed the PITA of having a cast. I just don't see how depriving the NHS of loads of £'s helps anyone just because someone made a mistake. We all make mistakes, it's what makes us human (well, that and having opposable thumbs and the internet!). Shit happens.

All is OK now (except still get some pain every now and again, especially when it gets very cold) and it's a tale to wheel out over dinner every now and again. I also consider it makes me a proper mountain biker, you can't really be one until you've broken 4 or 5 bones in total!

Anyway, you can complain, but really don't see how going after money helps at all, unless you need it to pay for care due to negligence.

Oh im not after the money I'm more going after a explanation and want to see somebody squirm because they've made a complete balls up. I know people make mistakes, but it was the total lack of any care and compassion and the I'm a A&E consultant so I know best not you attitude. Luckily as I've been walking on it, just with moderate pain and numbness and it has started to knit together and will require nothing other than a couple more weeks of rest.

I'm more pissed off as I wanted to get back to work next week, but that's out the question.

I'm still not a proper mountain biker as it was sustained on the motorbike.

A Orthopaedic consultant was also in the room when I told My ward sister and matron and says its appalling.

Maybe if it happens next time I will visit the A&E department of my employers.

Although this is the 2nd time I have received poor care at Royal Blackburn Hospital, they managed to balls up a Para umbilical Hernia repair that popped out after two weeks!

I blame thatcher

I think what you are mixing up here is the concept of a "complete balls up", with the idea that a human, looking at a grainy image, after looking at hundreds of other grainy images, (possibly) made an error of judgement that resulted in little more than you walking on a painful leg for a bit of time.

It doesn't sound like a huge, obvious life endangering error, so have a long hard think about the situation...bearing in mind that you are soon to be plunged into a similar system of dealing with lots and lots of people, over and over again.

Consider the case that, on a drug round after a busy morning shift, you give someone a the wrong dose of medication... no-one dies, no one actually gets hurt, but it's an error. That your colleagues are likely to have made. And you're likely to make again if you remain in the NHS long enough.
It it a "complete balls up"?? Hmm, not so sure....

And as for

My boss is disgusted and told me to complain. Matron on orthopaedics surgery.

From my experience of Orthopaedic matrons, one would have expected no less.....

DrP

As usual DrP speaks sense.... The actual [i]significant[/i]* miss rate in A&E x-ray is less than 1% (about 0.2% in my department), which I dont think is that bad. Especially if you take into account the royal college of radiology guidelines about x-ray reporting/reviewing which state they should be done on a high definition monitor in a darkened room with a quiet environment. We are a major trauma center and don't even have the first of those never mind the others.

Mildred - Please tell me you are joking.... Surely someone stopped the orthopods before they tried to remove a L/R marker from your leg. Even if the numpty who saw you initially didn't know, you would hope that an orthopod would have looked at enough x-rays to realise!!

*By significant, I mean would actually have had an impact on the outcome if ignored.

seems like a nurse getting in a flap about nothing - leave it to the doctors to sort out they do after all know a lot more than the nurses.

^^
[img] [/img]

And bananas are MUCH tastier than apples, but of course that wasn't said or implied, either, was it....

DrP

Dr P I agree Nurses cock up to and some days I go home and think maybe I could of done this or that differently. It's not a dig at Doctors, Consultants or the Nhs in general as they do a fantastic job like the majority of Health care workers including the Hard working Health care assistants.
However this is the 2nd time I have received poor care at Royal Blackburn. The 1st time was extremely poor post op care from Nursing staff.

Happens everywhere, not just NHS.. Dr here in Canada diagnosed my wife with possible ligament damage.. "come back when swelling has gone down".. phone call a week later from the clinc saying she actually had a 10mm depressed fracture of her tibial plateau that needed reconstructive knee surgery!!

Have you seen the original x-rays yet? It's just you seem pretty insistent that someone has made a balls up without anyone actually looking to see. When I broke my wrist I was told (years ago, I know things have improved) that it would almost certainly not show up and I would get a cast and come back for a follow-up to find it. Turns out it was obvious and follow-up not required but let us know when someone does get a look though. Preferably with a copy of the x-ray so we can all play spot the crack 🙂

Gonna see if the Ortho consultant has it tommorow on the system but I'd imagine he/she will just have the mri. I don't even think my gp has the A&e report as its not on her system as she asked me to remind her of the date of the accident.

Just an Update on the last post. I did see my very first X Ray and you can see it clearly just below the fibula head. And the LCL was partially torn off it when looking on the MRI scan.

Have been back at work three week and wear a knee brace and get the odd sharp pain where the fracture sight was.