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Because they want to keep you, not lose you to a competitor company that effectively pays better. Mandating expensive commuting every day will increasingly be taken into account when employees are considering their pay package. Somewhere else offering slighting more money AND either less frequent commuting or pays for commuting? That’s a big draw. “Sucking up” the cost of travelling peak time five days a week is no longer acceptable to many people (or simply isn’t affordable anymore).
I agree entirely.
But you also have to consider that they will have access to a talent pool that includes people local to the office who'll be prepared to do the job for less than you and turn up to the office.
But 2.0, employers are not going to retroactively start paying for commuting. If they paid you or your role previously based on you coming in, then allowed/were forced into some flexibility, then want to go back to being office based, they're not always going to pay more for that.
But 3.0, as 5lab points out, wages up north are often a lot lower. In my industry it's about a 20% uplift to be in London Vs anywhere else south of the Midlands, and a 20% drop from that to anywhere north of the Tees. So you need to balance the costs (or the job market will for you). Roles that only need someone in the office once a week/month might get taken by people prepared to balance the mortgage + commuting costs differently to you.
It'll all come down to the job market at the end of the day, if your sector's doing so well that you can afford to name your terms and price, then good for you. But that won't always be the case. And when the boots on the other foot you can't really complain it's unfair?
That way city workers paying higher rents get more, commuters are helped with their travel costs, and those working from home can carry on doing that if they wish or go and work somewhere else which fully supports home-working.
Isn't this sort of what already happens? Companies have different weightings for different cities, and for remote workers they'll use whatever city/locality that's in the system as the weighting. That's how it works where I am now and in places I've interviewed previously.
Just off-shore the jobs completely and save a fortune. Remote working can cut both ways
We already did that.
But 2.0, employers are not going to retroactively start paying for commuting.
Yes but my point is they could. And it would be a good tactic to help achieve their aims without pissing people off. People are always talking about 'thinking outside the box' - well, let's give it a try.
Just off-shore the jobs completely and save a fortune. Remote working can cut both ways
That's been happening for my whole working life. I've worked with and managed teams in the USA and India which leads me to believe I don't need to be in an office when the team is on 3 continents.
Yes but my point is they could. And it would be a good tactic to help achieve their aims without pissing people off. People are always talking about ‘thinking outside the box’ – well, let’s give it a try.
But put yourself in a hiring managers shoes.
Two equally capable candidates, one lives just up the road, ones lives an hour away. Would you pay the 2nd one 2hours more a day and costs? Or would you take the other one? If they need two new staff the market will dictate they'll pay them both the same higher rate (or someone else will, that's how supply and demand curves work) and the local one will be quids in.
Same applies with exiting employees if you engineer in a pay discrepancy. When it comes to redundancy evaluations you could end up pooled in and scored against a much higher pay grade.
Or if your office isd located in an expensive town do you start paying people in proportion to their mortgages as well? I live near my office, my mortgage is probably a few hundred quid a month higher for the privilege, but I don't need to own a car. Should my boss entertain a request to change to home working and a payrise if I move further away?
I'm not saying being in the office is better, or preferable, or necessary in a lot of cases. I just think a lot of people are overvaluing their hand.
How many of your local councils have started to sell off their office stock?
Ours has, with no intention to replace (or cannot afford to).
Perhaps linked to economic collapse.
Same applies with exiting employees if you engineer in a pay discrepancy.
This is whataboutery - you could say the same about all sorts of things when it comes to hiring. At least in your scenario I get to choose between the two candidates - the distant one might be much better.
Should my boss entertain a request to change to home working and a payrise if I move further away?
Depends if you're actually needed in the office all the time. Presenteeism is pointless and potentially damaging, which is my point. Employers get far more from their staff if they give them what they need and aren't seen to be imposing stupid decisions with significant negative consequences that employees have to pick up, just to please those higher up the chain.
I don't mind having to go into the office. I really mind having to spend my own time and money to go in for no good reason.
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I am important, yes. As is everyone who works to produce something. I'm obviously talking about office workers here, because this only applies to them. People who work at the Co-Op clearly can't WFH, why are you bringing them up? It sounds as if you think that people who do have a choice should shut up and deal with it, because Co-Op staff have to deal with it. On the other hand, they probably don't have to commute 90 mins a day and pay hundreds of quid to get to work.
@sam3000 - some local councils are selling off assets as the UK Govt is underfunding them and not allowing them to raise council tax very much. They are selling the assets to pay for day-to-day operational expenditure - 14 years of austerity
How many of your local councils have started to sell off their office stock?
Ours is...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-67875605
...not sure who they think is going to buy it with a £56m maintenance backlog. It'll be given away for £1.
A company has 2 people working in an office pre covid, one lives in the city and one lives in the countryside. The colleague in the city pays more rent for the pleasure but balances it by not having yo pay to commute. The colleague in the countryside pays less rent but balances it by paying more to commute. WFH now saves the second colleague money but not the first. Now you are to work in the office again and the second colleague gets their commute paid for saving money again but the colleague in the city has gained nothing. This doesn’t feel right to me.
Bloody snowflakes, want everything FAIR!
Is the city dweller worse off than they were before? Nope.
I don’t mind having to go into the office. I really mind having to spend my own time and money to go in for no good reason.
This. Told my boss that if they want us to come in the answer is to get us working with each other by resourcing projects locally rather than what we do now with distributed teams all over the country so you just end up in the office on calls with people in other offices.
A lot of the views on this thread are very me, me, me, I’m oh so important.
Some of the views on this thread seem to be 'I can't work from home so no one else should be allowed to'. If you don't like your job, change it.
Is the city dweller worse off than they were before? Nope.
Is the rural dweller worse off than before? Nope. They prioritized location over commute. Less free time in return for better free time.
This is whataboutery
And that's before we get to the demographic issue of having to justify why you're paying the people who live in Kirkby Lonsdale more than the ones from Rochdale. That could very quickly land you in some very warm water.
You didn't answer my question though, why should a company pay you more to commute, but not me more for my mortgage? We've both made decisions to allocate time and money differently. I value my short commute and more free time at the expense of a mortgage. You made different decisions.
We looked at paying for people's travel to come into the office as our workforce has now expanded over the UK since they don't have to commute to a London office day to day any more.
The main reason we've not done it is because HMRC take a dim view of it essentially. I shall not try and explain it all here as I will get it wrong, but as with so many things HMRC is not keeping up with reality.
This doesn’t feel right to me.
Preventing someone from WFH when they absolutely could (and causing the associated environmental damage), just to keep someone else happy is also not right IMO.
Even if you live locally within a city, WFH can still be a benefit. I used to have a 20 minute walk to work, but WFH was still nice on occasion.
You didn’t answer my question though, why should a company pay you more to commute, but not me more for my mortgage?
You aren't being PAID to commute - it's expense reimbursement, so you break even. You pay more for a mortgage but you are also gaining more equity in a more expensive property. In my hypothetical world you would be better off arguing for compensation for your house not appreciating as much because demand for properties near the office falls.
I think your objections are petty. Feel free to move house, because now you are no longer tied to living in suburban hell. Distributing the workforce has many many benefits to society and the environment, the only downside is apparently your hypothetical pocket money. In any case, it's clearly possible to redress this come annual pay/bonus distribution. If your boss values you being in all the time then you will get recognised.
Very good point about HRMC soundninjauk. You have to fit in with their rules. Paying for commuting would be part of general renumeration, not an expense, and to be taxed as normal income. Makes sense, but perhaps your company was looking for a tax break, rather than just paying employees more if it's made mandatory for them to commute.
I think you can be classed as a home based worker then it counts as expenses. If home is your normal place of work.
We asked our HR consultancy firm about exactly this, and their opinion was that if you still have an actual physical office then even changing people's contracts to state they work at home would make no difference so far as HMRC was concerned.
EDIT: I should probably add that in lieu of this, we pay a contribution to the cost of a co-working space. So I personally do two days co-working and 3 days WFH with the odd day in the actual office for sociable reasons, which is the right sort of balance for me.
if you still have an actual physical office
How close does it have to be to be considered 'your office' ?
How close does it have to be to be considered ‘your office’ ?
I don't know what would switch HMRC from 'that's a taxable benefit tyvm' to 'yeah sure go for it' but if it helps our office is in London and I think the current furthest away colleague is in Northumberland somewhere.
There is one office closer to me than the one I would want to go to periodically. I wonder if I can get them to change my location to that closer one - then I might have grounds to claim expenses to the further one.
Just because you work in more than one office.. where one is at home... doesn't change the fact that if your company pays towards your cost of travelling to work... it is taxable as income. But if you want to mandate 5 day a week 9to5 presentism, then you're going have to make it worth their while, and something that they can afford to do, by putting more in their pay packet... with the direct taxation implications. Pretending commuting costs aren't key to workers is in the past. It's clear to everyone now... companies need to wake up or pay up. Picking a mix of home working and on site working where possible will make sense to more and more companies, when the costs of commuting is on them rather than more or less ignored in business decisions, which happened far too often in the past.
It's total pinko nonsense to suggest that employers or taxpayers should subsidise commuting costs. You lot are on a different planet.
Now, where is the Cycle2Work thread again? It's time for a new gravel bike...
My problem with working from the office is that since the advent of Teams meetings, most offices being open plan are simple not fit for purpose.
At home I have better desk, chair and space, but more importantly privacy and lack of noise / cross talk.
I spend a lot less time on the train to London these days, but I do frequently spend 8 hours a day on Teams.
Office space needs to improve.
My problem with working from the office is that since the advent of Teams meetings, most offices being open plan are simple not fit for purpose.
That's true. Don't think of online meetings as simple substitutes for face-to-face meetings within a team or workplace. We are now doing more work with a far greater distribution of people because we can, because we're all so familiar with online meetings now. They have brought in new patterns of work. So even when in the office far more people are on calls more often.
Those people on my team who are forced into the office, they spend their entire day either working alone or on calls, and the calls are a lot more difficult in an open plan office, even if they aren't breaking GDPR regulations.
It’s total pinko nonsense to suggest that employers or taxpayers should subsidise commuting costs. You lot are on a different planet.
As mentioned above, some already pay for health insurance, life insurance, travel insurance, subsidised food, holidays, tea coffee and fruit, social events (inc hotel costs). It's not that big a stretch for commuting.
Our already pays commuting costs for anyone based at home when they come to the office (quite a few staff).
I'm only a 15min bike ride from work, so doesn't really bother me either way, although I prefer working from home - less interruptions and I can hang the washing out when it's not raining etc.
This is one of the things I've found 'odd' - I don't seem to be able to get other stuff done whilst working at home, so I've not quite mastered getting the washing done, the dishes sorted, prepped for a nice dinner, etc. Every time I move away from my computer I get a call...I've just not found this eutopia of getting stuff done whilst also working whilst at home.
If I do the food shop, it is during my lunch hour, but nothing else gets done as I don't manage enough time away from the computer to do anything properly. Admittedly, getting a washing on is about same time it would be to go for a pee - but the hanging up of the wet stuff needs factored in - I don't like the idea of wet clothes sitting in the washing machine for 1 hour+ before I can get them hung out to dry.
It’s total pinko nonsense to suggest that employers or taxpayers should subsidise commuting costs.
Another 'capitalist' who doesn't seem to understand how the market works. Businesses have to compete for staff. If in some sectors (eg software development which I work in) potential recruits can easily do their jobs at home then businesses which mandate office working are going to have to incentivise them to go into the office, otherwise they'll just go and work for another company.
This is one of the things I’ve found ‘odd’ – I don’t seem to be able to get other stuff done whilst working at home
The one thing I don't think I'll ever be able to give up is the ability to ACTUALLY do what my physio/doctor recommends and get up from desk and do some exercises/stretches every 20 minutes (well, you blink and it becomes every 60 minutes, which is still better than nothing).
I've got a great wee circuit downstairs, can get up, walk down stairs, and do a set of upper/lower body exercises, back to desk. It's telling that my back feels so much better for days at home than days in office, but unfortunately this doesn't wash with my company who want me in more and more ☹
The one thing I don’t think I’ll ever be able to give up is the ability to ACTUALLY do what my physio/doctor
I have an app which pops up every hour to say 'Squeeze the ball' for my tennis elbow..
My Polar watch also beeps at me if I don't move around enough...
Just off-shore the jobs completely and save a fortune.
I think arguments along the lines of 'if you want to work remotely that job could go to someone working remotely somewhere cheaper, so you should go back to the office' are redundant.
If a job can be done by an office full of people in the UK then it could be done by an office full of people somewhere cheaper. I don't see why it means any sort of security.
Anyway, as others have said offshoring has been a thing for a long time and yet jobs still exist in, or have returned to, the UK.
If a job can be done by an office full of people in the UK then it could be done by an office full of people somewhere cheaper. I don’t see why it means any sort of security.
I know of at least 3 companies in Manchester that have been on the hunt for engineers to on shore teams that were previously off shored. One of which only lasted ~8 months.
Anyway, as others have said offshoring has been a thing for a long time and yet jobs still exist in, or have returned to, the UK.
Probably but the last few years have shown a marked increase in the ability to work effectively away from the office, the advent of Teams,AI etc which is all a big jump from having a call centre in Dehli.
I was at a talk from a techie geek a while back and he felt full 5g (and beyond) was going to be a major game changer in how people work and live, so who knows what the future for roles who don’t need to be in the office will look like.
I think there's a huge difference between a team who know each other spending some or most of its time WFH and a team that's never met each other and are in timezones 6hrs apart. And different again to a team split over two distant locations, because those people who are geographically close (and of the same background) are much more likely to talk to and bond with each other than with people they will never meet on the other side of the world.
Experience tells me it’s not that simple
That's the point I was trying to get to. What I was trying to say is that if you're a boss thinking that someone WFH rather than the office could be replaced with someone offshore, then surely the next step is to look at your office full of people and wonder why not offshore that as well?
The fact that this largely hasn't happened shows that there's a lot more to it than that,and WFH probably has very little to do with it.
This is one of the things I’ve found ‘odd’ – I don’t seem to be able to get other stuff done whilst working at home
I am the opposite. When I'm at home I want to do home-related things, not work ones. It's not easy. The last time I went anywhere for work was this time last year.
If a job can be done by an office full of people in the UK then it could be done by an office full of people somewhere cheaper.
Language and culture says hello
My employer is also turning up the volume on the benefits (to them) of being in the office more. It doesn't seem to really be working, those that want to go in, go in, and still do, those that go in occassionally for focused work, still do. I know mandatory # days a week has been discussed.
Since covid my salary is approx 7% lower in real terms due to inflation, so I've taken a major hit in take home, which I can partially offset by not having to pay for commuting costs, and reducing things like childcare burden from after school clubs etc....
We have got ourselves in the weird position where many new starters have been taken on as home workers, all round the country, and are able to claim expenses with attending work. Similar to consultants / contractors who also claim expenses. But there is no provision for 'normal' workers. HMRC quoted as rationale.
I think if I wasn't a long termer / knew the business inside out and most of the people I would likely be seeing more benefit of going in to learn.
I do find hybrid meetings really hard, with some physically present and some remote. It can be very hard to keep track of conversations and interactions. Either should all be physically present or all remote in my view. I hate, with a passion sitting on a teams call in an open plan, silent office. I am super paranoid about what I say and disturbing all those around me. The office environment, at least mine, is not a nice or fun place to be. It clearly isn't but I often associate it with some sort of day release prison when heading in. I can't be alone,
I don't mind the office but with the reduced space and everyone hot dealing, I do seem to end sitting next to sales people...do they get trained to shout down the phone? They all do it even when they are the only sales person in the office - why???
My boss (company owner/CEO) has been asking/begging employees to return to the office but isn't brave enough/confident enough to force the issue.
Apart from a core group of about 20% of employees who choose to work in the office more or less full time and about another 20% who choose to do a couple of days a month in the office, the office is pretty empty.
If push comes to shove, I'll resign* before being forced to work from the office - I'm so over commuting.
(Software company, so no real need for physical presence)
* Yup. I'm in a fortunate position to be able to do this, if needed.
If push comes to shove, I’ll resign* before being forced to work from the office – I’m so over commuting.
When the idea of getting rid of homeworking altogether was floated at our place I asked the boss if the board were fully prepared for a staff turnover of >50% in a very short space of time. He said that was why the directors (mainly the old traditional lot) pushing for it weren't persuading many others.
If push comes to shove, I’ll resign* before being forced to work from the office – I’m so over commuting.
+1, we had a return to work directive and my (US east coast) manager had me made fully remote without even asking :). Most of my team are remote and globally distributed, there's no reason for me to be in the office.
If push comes to shove, I’ll resign* before being forced to work from the office – I’m so over commuting.
I've reached an impasse with my immediate director. Flagged that I was struggling with workload, his immediate response was that I wasn't delegating/collaborating effectively enough and needed to come in to office more.
I fundamentally disagree with what he's saying but can't refute it effectively enough to dissuade him. It's now a battle of wills that I'm getting the worst of as am just not confident enough to stand my ground 🙄
Ultimately my own stupid fault for moving as far away as I have (not entirely on purpose), two commuting days a week is bearable, three is knackering.
Flagged that I was struggling with workload, his immediate response was that I wasn’t delegating/collaborating effectively enough and needed to come in to office more.
Just find another job..
our place had a slogan around "its not where you do the work its what you do thats important" or something similar during covid. its very quietly been swept under the carpet this last year
i certainly woukdnt just resign if mandated more presentism and would give it a go if they made it purposeful, interesting and fun to be in the office. but, it would certainly give me a kick in the pants to look at other companies who were more flexible