[Closed] Newspapers

Have you read the heat pump thread? It’s perfectly clear that heat pumps are not the complete answer, and for many people would be hopelessly inappropriate.
And electric cars are similar, they’re more expensive, and many, many people will have nowhere handy to plug in overnight, like those living in terraces, or apartments with little on-site parking.
I know what you’re alluding to, re the media, but I’m sceptical about electric cars, and I work in the business, plus I read a lot of online motoring articles that many people will never see, and that maintains my scepticism.
Same with heat pumps - much of the government’s promises are largely BoJo’s smoke and mirrors, there to please the peanut gallery.
Ask yourself this - what happens when you’re in the middle of some important piece of work on your computer, and it suddenly crashes.
Now think about an EV suffering a full system crash on a busy motorway, on a dark winter evening.
And don’t say it wouldn’t happen, because it can, and it has. Even the infotainment system on a car can crash, leaving the driver with zero ability to tell what car is doing; it happened to a nearly new Mercedes at work, as it left the workshop the entire dash display went black, making it impossible to drive the car.
I made a deliberate decision to buy a car with the minimum reliance of fancy electronics - it has a proper handbrake, not an electronic one, the dash is fully analog, the only digital info is a small central display, and the screen for radio, satnav and reversing camera.
I don’t trust digital equipment not to **** up when it’s least convenient, yesterday my phone suddenly, for a reason I can’t understand, seemed to think it had been stolen, and wiped itself, going back to factory settings. Fortunately, I have a full cloud backup, but more than twenty-four hours later it’s still restoring my music library.

Ha but? We all do it to some extent I think.

Not having to think? Something was spot on previously, so it's spot on all the time.

Not facing up to life's problems? Much easier to believe XYZ than admit that problem 123 may actually be partly down to me?

Whilst I would trust CZs comments on cars, given how many he’s driven…

I don’t trust digital equipment not to **** up when it’s least convenient

I presume you don’t fly? Or if you do, a 1972 Piper Warrior with dual magnetos for that analogue experience? 😉

As for newspapers, I read the FT online since it’s free. I’d now pay for it if it wasn’t. It’s reasonably objective, but there is little I disagree with. Which is probably a bad thing. Comments are always good though.

My mum still buys a paper a few times a week. She finds the printed text more enjoyable to read as screens give her headaches (she's not exactly a luddite - worked in IT from the early 90s). Also can be read in garden and is a good excuse for a walk so helps keep her active and it's just a normal thing she's always done.

Not exactly a wonder why people still buy newspapers but clearly the days are numbered.

You need to distinguish between newspapers and propaganda sheets

Ie I disagree with the editorial stance of the telegraph and its very much the tories house paper - but it does not contain lies generally. the Daily Heil on the other hand has no scruples and has no regard for the truth - its just outright propaganda

Now think about an EV suffering a full system crash on a busy motorway, on a dark winter evening.

I’ve lost the power, brakes and steering on a old Vauxhall Astra, on the motorway, because of a dry solder on a circuit board. Cars are already electronic abs have been for decades

it’s not like cars are infallible and new technology unreliable all your doing is using different words to describe a ‘fault’. I’ve been in pretty serious situations where all that’s has  a bit of rubber has split or a plastic spacer was missed out when the mechanic reassembled something . It makes no difference in the moment that’s serious situation is happening whether that fault is something that would later be fixed with a spanner or a laptop. And electric cars will still have all the same bits of rubber and plastic spacers

Ie I disagree with the editorial stance of the telegraph and its very much the tories house paper – but it does not contain lies generally.

Woooah there.

Take a classic piece of Telegraph journalism - they broke and effectively serialised the MP's Expenses Scandal. Almost everything you think you know about that event - the Duck houses, the moats, is untrue. There were facts in there but the stories were crafted to give the reader impressions of something other than the truth.

he Daily Heil on the other

Is where many of the key players in the Telegraph used to work.

the dash is fully analog

Are you sure its not just an analogue face being driven by electronics? Would be very surprised if it was anything else. I first realised this when a 2003 car started having serious faults at motorway speeds, being diesel or electric made no difference (also lost the engine, steering and brakes)

Pretty much everything written reflects the bias of the author. Understanding that and the intent helps see through some of the bias and critique it.

There isn't a paper out there that doesn't have bias and it's always important to remember that newspapers are in the business of selling the news not reporting it.

Challenging things in a meaningful way is a lot of effort. It's very easy to pick a side and critique the other. It's hard to critique your own position.

Take the second comment on here. It's a critique of things the author doesn't like but does not critique the status quo for any sort of balance.

People like familiarity. It's evolutionary. Change is stressful and increases danger. Being around those similar to ourselves means safety. We work to fit in within our group.

I read the FT online since it’s free.

FT is £33 per month just for a digital subscription.

Which leaves not a lot of choice remaining for balanced reporting, even amongst the broadsheets.

Clearing the days of physical newspapers are waning. The more worrying question is, where do you think people get their "news" from now / in years to come?

Many people I ask the question where is their source of news are only able to mutter "Facebook" and that isn't so much a source of news but of opinion.

Viz' profanisaurus has the word Shitpump defined as the telly; that needs an update!

There isn’t a paper out there that doesn’t have bias and it’s always important to remember that newspapers are in the business of selling the news not reporting it.

Yes but there is a difference between editorial stance and outright lies / propaganda

Read the guardian/ Ft / telegraph and you get a slanted version of what happened

Read the daily mail or express you get distortion, selective quoting and outright lies

I read The Times every day. I believe it is important to challenge your own politics rather than constantly reinforce.

have every part of their thinking be overridden and influenced by someone else

This is down to the individual not the reading matter.

Read the guardian/ Ft / telegraph and you get a slanted version of what happened

Or just as easily; completely made up shit. Take a non important example, a couple of weeks ago Lewis Hamilton was heard on the radio expressing his unhappiness about his team's performance at the Turkish F1 race. Many news outlets on Monday including the BBC and Guardian used the word "Furious"  and ignoring the story of the race went after this gossip instead, It took Hamilton to take to SM to effectively say "this is a bunch of lies"  They print what they think will attract attention.

I've read any number of stories even in the broad sheets about stuff I know about that are just just made up. Mostly because they're journalists, they don't understand the intricacies. This week it's stories about truck drivers, next week it's COP-26, they're not experts on anything.  The details are wrong or the quotes are out of context, reporters like Hari, and Fisk, who just make stuff up by mixing quotes or just writing from their desk when they said they were there...and it's not just the UK it happens all over the world.

I don't not read them, but you have to read at least a couple of different versions to get anything like a proper story

and of course they voted Brexit

I was at my elderly folks house last night

Sorry, you lost me at this point.

Almost everything you think you know about that event – the Duck houses, the moats, is untrue

SO Peter Viggers didn't spend £1600 on a duck house? And a further £30k on gardening expenses? I accept that none of this was against the rules, but some MPs were tone deaf on what would be seen as acceptable (rather than allowed by the rules). If I have misunderstood, then I am interested to know. I met a couple of the MPs caught up int he scandal, and at least one of them was an excellent MP (if not my preferred party) and there was a whiff of witchhunt by the end, but the facts were true as far as I can see?

Oh and on the OP - I read the Telegraph and Guardian online (plus others, including non UK papers) to try and get a less biased take (or maybe lots of different biases!)

Viz’ profanisaurus has the word Shitpump defined as the telly; that needs an update!

I think i am right in saying that the same family invented the worlds first underground sewerage system in London and then 7 generations later founded Endomol, that broadcasted Big Brother and the like. So the joke was that in the space of 7 generations they had gone from pumping shite out of your house to pumping it in...

I'd imagine most of the trade magazines Count Zero reads are heavily biased towards maintaining the status quo as that's what the readership wants to hear. Meanwhile heatpumps are dismissed easily, as British people aren't used to them, and Britain really doesn't like new technology if it disturbs an old.
People like reading and believing things they want to hear generally

Read the guardian/ Ft / telegraph and you get a slanted version of what happened

Sorry tj, have you read the telegraph lately- it moved into the distorted category (online at least) quite a while ago. I find a reasonable indicator of distortion is the number of headlines which rely on third party quotes to drag the reader in/appeal to their biases.
Colonel hits out at ‘howling mob’ of student protesters who disrupted university talk etc etc

I'm bemused by tired's ft comment- is work paying for the subscription, so it's personally free?

FWIW, I have no qualms about using a paywall blocker browser extension to avoid paying money to a couple of news organisations that I like to follow but would rather not fund.

FT is £33 per month just for a digital subscription.

You can get discounted subscriptions, think I pay about £200 a year. You can also effectively read it all for free if you search for each article via google, it then allows you to read one article free when forwarded from Google - bit of a PITA, hence I subscribe.

I also really like the New York Times (subscribe as well), lots of interesting non main stream news stuff.

I also subscribe to Le Monde, although the French on that is pretty hardcore (C2), so I find it pretty hard going. The length and depth of their articles is very impressive.

I'm a bit of a newspaper junkie, read the Sunday Times cover to cover each week - business section is always very good.

Plus subscribe to The Guardian (mainly to support them).

People believe what they want to believe. I could read the mail every day but doing so wouldn't align me with their views.

Just looked it up: £153 / year for FT subscription, second year at that rate as well. If you go to cancel they just offer a renewal at last year's rate.

People believe what they want to believe. I could read the mail every day but doing so wouldn’t align me with their views.

I'd like to think I'd be immune but I suspect if that was all you read for years on end, it would have an effect in the end.

It's interesting how only the right wing, pro-Brexit bubbles appear to be coming in for criticism. I suspect there are just as many left wing, anti-Brexit bubbles out there (and indeed this often feels like one, which may be why the right wing ones are getting the more flack...)
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It'something I try to avoid by listening to a variety of media outlets, BBC, ABC, NPR, Al Jareeza and occasionally Russsia Today to get a variety of view points, and sometimes just to hear stories which aren't even mentioned in the domestic media, but I suspect even that doesn't completely remove me from my own little bubble, it's just human nature to seam out those who agree with us.

Echoing Andrewh above, it is easy to get your news to shape what your views are, i don't really read a daily newspaper anymore, occasionally i will read the Sunday Times but only as it has military and legal appointments and news which covers my previous and current work.

But if you get your news from Twitter or FB news feed, then you follow who you want, and in FB News, i have asked not to see news from Sun/Torygraph/Star/Mail/Express purely because i do not agree with 90% of what they write, and i don't particularly care which member of Love Island is dating who, so all my online news is via Independent, Guardian and FT and those that i follow on Twitter and typically left-leaning like me, so i am essentially reading an echo chamber of my thoughts, but i also tend to think that this doesn't just reflect political leanings, but also people that think about the climate, who think about society as a whole, not just themselves and who are more likely to provide a standpoint supported by actual scientific / medical / well written evidence.

I think it is largely down to how you were brought up - if (like many of our now elderly parents) the newspapers WERE largely free of obvious falsehoods and stuck to their 'traditional biases' (eg Guardian left, Telegraph right, Mail fashes etc) in the 50's - 70's then it makes sense that they still cleave to what they see as reliable sources of news and don't necessarily appreciate the shift over the last decade or so from 'news' to 'opinion'.

It's about having the critical thinking faculties instilled in you from a young age - as a generalisation, but a greater number of my generation went to university than that of my parents, and certainly I was taught to interrogate the source of information and consider the inherent biases where my parents might not otherwise have been.

When I read the papers (Times, generally) it's pretty obvious to me where the editorial line has been drawn and where it's been resisted - the current crop of stories about how it's better for people to be back in the office, for example, smacks pretty heavily of editorial influence driven by the interests of those with large property investments.

I know it was cited recently on another thread, but 'Flat Earth News' by Nick Davies is a good read on this stuff.

I presume you don’t fly? Or if you do, a 1972 Piper Warrior with dual magnetos for that analogue experience?

Airbourne software is an order of magnitude more expensive to produce than automotive. It often does less. It's aimed at pros doing a job. Often, it is part of a redundant system of multiple units running similar software. It takes a lot longer to write. Etc.

Mr & Mrs FinkNottle-Smythe, who are about to spunk the bulk of their disposable income on a shiny new self driving SUVbox which will primarily be used to drive fifteen yards down the road to park in front of the junior school in order to conspicuously display their bank loan, are not the target market.

Which is a long way round of saying you're comparing apples and barnacles.

Just buy a Daily Mail and a Guardian. Job jobbed. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

critical thinking faculties

50% of the population will always have less than average abilities to discern good information. Even if they went to university. That's what the newspapers, and whatever shitpump replaces the newspapers, is going for.

In future, the shitpumps are simply having to up their game in obfuscating their sources a bit. Junk science papers, ropey references, non-peer reviewed reports, who will have time to check and validate all that? or care about checking in with someone/thing that does?

Anyways. The Elderly. A lot never make it past their teenage/early 20s ideas and mindsets. My parents still think the media is like it was in the 1950s and 60s too. It's a real problem - any conversation on current affairs feels like a Turing Test where the machine had only a back catalogue of Torygraph drivel to work from.

I can’t understand why someone would pay money and make a routine of going to the newsagents everyday to then have every part of their thinking be overridden and influenced by someone else.

Maybe you should credit your parents with having their own thoughts and opinions, and not assume they've been brainwashed. Perhaps they read this paper because it represents a worldview they hold already?

When I read the papers (Times, generally) it’s pretty obvious to me where the editorial line has been drawn and where it’s been resisted – the current crop of stories about how it’s better for people to be back in the office, for example, smacks pretty heavily of editorial influence driven by the interests of those with large property investments.

Editors run stories that will interest their readers. The Times and Telegraph are into the war on woke because they believe their readers will care, and write comments and share them. The Guardian gives its readers stories about the environment for the same reason. There are stories everywhere about the return to office because it's a live issue that affects almost everyone in the country.

Every paper will have columnists who will write opinion pieces. Some are leftish, some are rightish, and some will challenge their own readers' beliefs.

There is no shady cabal trying to manipulate you. It's just a simple business of shifting papers or getting clicks so they can sell advertising.

There is no shady cabal trying to manipulate you. It’s just a simple business of shifting papers or getting clicks so they can sell advertising.

Not suggesting it's a *shady* cabal - it's generally quite open - cf for example the Sun an/or the Mirror offering their support behind a party before a general election (eg Blair in 1997), and Murdoch holding himself out as 'kingmaker'.

I used the example of returning to the office as it's quite clear some of the papers are driving it - see, for example, the Express, Mail etc with their repeated and multiple denigration of home working and home workers. It's very likely that the parent companies have significant exposure to property investments which are dropping in value either because the rental income has ceased or there's a lack of demand for commercial office property.

It's sort of a chicken/egg thing though - editors set the tone, readers respond so they increase that level of discourse and so on.

Just buy a Daily Mail and a Guardian. Job jobbed. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

It really isn't. It's one thing to have a bias. It's something else entirely when your entire business model is to lure people in by making them as angry as possibly. There's no value whatsoever in reading the DM.

when your entire business model is to lure people in by making them as angry as possibly.

I was reading somewhere about FB's feed algorithm which they changed a few years back to prioritise posts with the most comments. The (un)intended consequence of which was that controversial posts were prioritised and as such it is blamed with inflaming political divisions by basically making people more angry about shit they don't like eg cyclists without road tax etc....

Sorry tj, have you read the telegraph lately- it moved into the distorted category (online at least) quite a while ago.

I have got to agree with that, you seem to be basing your opinion of the Daily Telegraph on the distant past TJ.

Certainly there was a time when the Daily Telegraph imo provided excellent high quality journalism, despite being Tory supporting.

But it changed dramatically when Conrad Black (a now Trump pardoned convicted criminal) took control of the newspaper.

Obviously Conrad Black no longer owns the Daily Telegraph but it slid into the gutter under his ownership and it has remained there ever since.

Fair enough

I guess the same as the Scotsman that used to be a decent if rightwing paper but has become an utter rag

Now think about an EV suffering a full system crash on a busy motorway, on a dark winter evening.

Thats not a problem with electric cars though as such as opposed to modern cars in general.
Most modern petrol/diesel cars already are pretty much completely controlled by electronics especially important features like brakes.

So whilst I would agree that possibly going for an simple as possible design isnt necessarily a bad thing since the car manufacturers seem determined to relearn all the lessons of the software industry the hard way its not an argument just against electric cars.

For heat pumps the reports do seem somewhat mixed. They do seem to be something best built in from the ground up as opposed to retrofitting which could prove problematic.

I'm old school (actually... I'm just old) and get a print version of the Grauniad every day and have done most of my adult life. I like sitting with a coffee (or a beer depending on the time of day) and reading a paper, not a screen. I spend all day staring at a screen.

I like it as it generally confirms all my prejudices and has some interesting articles. There was a really good, detailed 3 page article on the Hillsborough public enquiry yesterday. They have some fantastic columnists. I love Marina Hyde

I think I agree with Binners, but I've got first dibbs on Marina.

If there was one thing I could add to the school curriculum it would be the critical analysis of newspaper or social media articles. "What is motivating the writer?" or, as it is more commonly known "Why is this bastard lying to me?"

it’s not like cars are infallible and new technology unreliable all your doing is using different words to describe a ‘fault’. I’ve been in pretty serious situations where all that’s has a bit of rubber has split or a plastic spacer was missed out when the mechanic reassembled something

All that high tech, and the Challenger disaster was caused by a failed rubber grommet.

FT is £33 per month just for a digital subscription.

Sorry, it's a work subscription. I'd pay it if it was not, though. I quite like the Times too for the "Human Interest Stories", and I buy the Sunday Times because it's basically the inside line to current Government decision making. I'm probably politically more Grauniad, but find it a little too preachy and it's better to have your beliefs challenged.

All that high tech, and the Challenger disaster was caused by a failed rubber grommet.

To be fair though, Grommet had already had one grand day out to the moon so putting him in charge of Challenger wasn't such a daft idea

I used to be an avid guardian reader having first started buying it 40+ years ago

However recently its started to grate more and more - its unwavering support for the lib dems despite the obvious train wreck of their last election campaign and its frankly malign reporting of Scotland has been disappointing to say the least.

the guardian used to be challenging and leftish with good investigative journalism. Its now firmly focussed on smug middle class english. Its moved a long way to the right

I am now left with no newspapers that I like and trust which is a shame. I pick up my news from a variety of sources but after the last year pay much less attention than I used to

the Scotsman has become a complete rag of a propaganda sheet, The Herald is just meh

@maccruiskeen

Woooah there.

Take a classic piece of Telegraph journalism – they broke and effectively serialised the MP’s Expenses Scandal. Almost everything you think you know about that event – the Duck houses, the moats, is untrue.

Which bit of the duck house story is untrue. Even the Guardian printed it as true with the MP saying he regretted it. The claim wasn't awarded buthe did try it.

"Tory MP Sir Peter Viggers said today he felt "ashamed and humiliated" over his expenses claim for an island to house the ducks in his pond.He described his decision to include the feature in his taxpayer-funded second home claims as a "ridiculous and grave error of judgment".The ducks had never liked the ­feature and it was no longer being used, he added."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/may/23/mps-expenses-conservatives

Most rags can no longer be described as newspapers.

bit of rubber has split

Been the cause of many a problem

Been the cause of many a problem

It's the explosion afterwards that causes the real problem though

Ask yourself this – what happens when you’re in the middle of some important piece of work on your computer, and it suddenly crashes.
Now think about an EV suffering a full system crash on a busy motorway, on a dark winter evening.
And don’t say it wouldn’t happen, because it can, and it has. Even the infotainment system on a car can crash, leaving the driver with zero ability to tell what car is doing; it happened to a nearly new Mercedes at work, as it left the workshop the entire dash display went black, making it impossible to drive the car.
I made a deliberate decision to buy a car with the minimum reliance of fancy electronics – it has a proper handbrake, not an electronic one, the dash is fully analog, the only digital info is a small central display, and the screen for radio, satnav and reversing camera.

Don't ever fly on a modern jet aircraft or travel on the Tube, and make sure you keep all your money in cash in a safety deposit box or under your bed, because they're much safer than banks which rely almost entirely on electronic communications to manage your accounts.

And the most common cause of mechanical failure with cars, is tyre failure. I hope you don't use pneumatic tyres on your cars...

And the most common cause of mechanical failure with cars, is tyre failure. I hope you don’t use pneumatic tyres on your cars…

Don't tell him most crashes are not caused by the mechanical or electronic failures, but by the bag of skin sat controlling the tin box on wheels....

You can't compare the Telegraph with the Daily Mail,

With the Mail, you can go online and read a story accompanied by a tsunami of hate filled comments.

With the Telegraph you can go online, click on a headline where the article itself is hidden behind a paywall but the tsunami of (un-moderated but encouraged) hate filled comments are still visible.

Pure hatebait.

the Challenger disaster was caused by a failed rubber grommet

In my view it was caused by senior managers knowingly ignoring the performance limits of the rubber grommet. Although it broke, the grommet performed the way the engineers expected it to.