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I know they're likely to show the interviews that make the 'best' story but the rationale being given by some of the participants is so warped it's scary...
The girl who wants to be a primary school teacher who thinks it's great there's one less police car cos they've just burnt one... does she really not understand the character and morals you need to be let loose on our kids...
Or the lad - pretty articulate and intelligent-sounding saying he looted and burnt to get back at the fact he had his benefits taken away, and wanted to cost the country more than it's taken from him.
That's proper scary that he appears to believe that to be justified behaviour...
Is there really no ability to reflect on personal responsibility and working hard to get the things you want - in one of the richest and most equal countries in the world. Or is that actually the problem... have we become a bunch of rich kids (relative to the rest of the world that is....)
EDIT - CBA
in one of the richest and most equal countries in the world
one of the richest - yes
and most equal countries - no, very far from it
Doesn't surprise me. Mrs Blobby often deals with people on benefits as part of her job and they're always on about when they "get paid", as if they have somehow earnt it.
Hang on, don't expect rioting, looting idiots to come up with perfectly rational justifications. What do you expect?
What iDave said. I'd started a stream of conciousness but thought better of it.
on about when they "get paid", as if they have somehow earnt it.
Maybe they have, just not in a way that you can see. I've worked, I've paid in and now I have earned right to withdraw it.
Doesn't surprise me. Mrs Blobby often deals with people on benefits as part of her job and they're always on about when they "get paid", as if they have somehow earnt it.
'Paid' doesn't imply earned does it. Hopefully mrs blobbybdoen't have such a dismissive attitude if she works with people in receipt of benefits
Don Simon, yes indeed some have... but these ones definitely haven't.
CM, mrs blobby is much better at her job than I would ever be!
Is there really no ability to reflect on personal responsibility and working hard to get the things you want
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/youth-unemployment-breaks-1m-mark-6262890.html ]Youth unemployment breaks 1m mark[/url]
Just saying like.
I can see how easy it is to get frustrated with the system after seeing the way that us scroungers are treated by some of the DWP staff, some are quite humane, others not. i also understand that the staff have to be quite thick skinned too, it's a saddening environment.
and most equal countries - no, very far from it
I think this is part of the issue. Look at the Gini coefficient tables. UK IS one of the most equal countries in the world. Not equal per se, but ONE of the MOST...
No-one seems to realise this...
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distribution_of_wealth ]Global Gini Coefficient ranking[/url]
What's the solution? Many of the better off seem to be getting fed up with supporting a growing number of people with low, or no, earnt income. The poorer people want a better life but how can that happen? That bloke said Capitalism will destroy itself.
Will?
"get paid"....awful yank expression imported from the godawful rap scene over there....applied to any activity (legitimate or otherwise) that garners money....drug dealing, benefits etc etc.
Had to chuckle at the 'repressed' youths that cut their holiday short by 9 days to return to the UK and join in the riots....wow, nothing like being so held down by 'the man' that you have to cut your hols short to come home and riot!
The kids being spoken to are trotting out the same lines we've heard for decades....police oppression, anti-government etc ....same shit, different generation....why give air time to these bellends?
I've said it before and i'll say it again, when these retards talk like a bad impression of Ali-G nobody in their right mind is going to give them a job....it sounds particularly bad when the jamaican patois being spouted at you is coming from a white person....how does that work then?....or when the black lad who is a 3rd or 4th generation West Indies immigrant and has never left these shores speaks with more of a caribbean accent than his dear old granny who was born in St Lucia!....its no wonder society shuns these cretins.
...shockingly predictable. Poor quality debate TBH though. Although glad that someone raised the issue of the "real victims".
Newsnight really seems to be struggling these days. Too much dumbing down and headline seeking
The kids being spoken to are trotting out the same lines we've heard for decades....police oppression, anti-government etc ....same shit, different generation....why give air time to these bellends?
Because being selective on which bellends can have their say and those who can't wouldn't be fair. Mind you I could always use "report post", couldn't I?
I've said it before and i'll say it again, when these retards talk like a bad impression of Ali-G nobody in their right mind is going to give them a job....it sounds particularly bad when the jamaican patois being spouted at you is coming from a white person....how does that work then?....or when the black lad who is a 3rd or 4th generation West Indies immigrant and has never left these shores speaks with more of a caribbean accent than his dear old granny who was born in St Lucia!....its no wonder society shuns these cretins.
Exactly! How can they expect to get decent paid work and make a contribution if they are going to go around acting black? They should buckle down and start acting white if they want to get on
CharlieMungus....you'll find that blacks in the US that talk in hip-hop speak and act 'gangsta' also have a hard time getting work....its not about the colour of the skin, its about not acting and looking like a prick....there are plenty of blacks in this country and the US who dont feel the need to conform to negative racial stereotypes and funnily enough they seem to get on with their lives fine....its the few who want to act like they're living in an MTV video and still get taken seriously that have a hard time of it.
Deviant. Are you David Sharkey? I remember he got into a whole lot of hot water when he said something similar at the time....
You're right about plenty of black people not behaving that way - and by acting just as everyone else does, they get treated just like everyone else. Anyone living in London sees that on a daily basis
I think this is part of the issue. Look at the Gini coefficient tables. UK IS one of the most equal countries in the world. Not equal per se, but ONE of the MOST...No-one seems to realise this...
Global Gini Coefficient ranking
Yes of course, they should count themselves lucky that they don't live in Malawi.
Does that rule apply to bankers too ? .......... I'm guessing not.
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/05/income-inequality-growing-faster-uk ]Income inequality growing faster in UK than any other rich country, says OECD[/url]
[i]"Top 10% have incomes 12 times greater than bottom 10%, up from eight times greater in 1985"[/i]
CharlieMungus....you'll find that blacks in the US that talk in hip-hop speak and act 'gangsta' also have a hard time getting work....its not about the colour of the skin, its about not acting and looking like a prick..
So adopting black identity is acting like a prick?
..there are plenty of blacks in this country and the US who dont feel the need to conform to negative racial stereotypes and funnily enough they seem to get on with their lives fine....its the few who want to act like they're living in an MTV video but get taken seriously that have a hard time of it.
But who has the negative stereotype? Because you view it negatively other peoplenhave to change?
Oh society has the ngative view? Let's just revisit who needs the education here,
brooess....i dont think i'm saying anything too controversial.
When the 'yoof' of today speak and it sounds like Ali-G it just makes them sound thick even if they arent....if the accent they are using has caribbean overtones when they have never been to those islands then it just becomes comical....and (black or white) kids speaking like this want to be taken seriously? 😆
Someone from Jamaica speaks with a Jamaican accent - fine and normal.
Someone from Guildford speaks with a Jamaican accent - cock.
I hope that clears things up for some people....lets not being race into it, its about looking like a penis or not and a lot of these kids dont help themselves.
Trouble is some folks don't realise that what they say and how they say it makes them look like a cock to others who don't buy into the same value system as them
Someone from Guildford speaks with a Jamaican accent - cock.
Wow.
I hope that clears things up for some people...
Yes it does, cock.
Someone from Guildford speaks with a Trinidadian accent?
Someone from Guildford speaks with a Jamaican accent - cock
Is it specifically Guildford, or would this include anyone from Surrey who speaks with a Jamaican accent?
Is it not more about the fundamental lack of responsibility these rioters feel for having to participate in the social fabric of the country ? Sorry to sound all Radio4 on you there but to me it's nothing to do with race, religion or which part of Surrey you live in - it's about the fact that many of the rioters have no concept that in life you have no 'rights' and fundamentally in order to participate in society you have to choose to do so and play under some rules. That's what gets on my goat - if I want to work hard and do well that is my choice, if I don;t that is also my choice but I should not then epxect to have 'the right' to have the same 'stuff' as the person that has worked hard for it. But the attitude is that they do. And lets be clear - it's mainly about 'stuff' and not about where they want to be in life or their aspirations - they just want a nice ****n TV.
I'm getting annoyed now.
“If those in charge of our society - politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television - can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves.”
Howard Zinn
Doing a good job of it too.
emanuel.
Thing is... Lots of people are finding they can't participate in society the way this thread would like them to. 22% of UK youth are unemployed, that's a terrible situation, and it's very geographically unbalanced too. Being young and employed isn't some lifestyle choice, for many (most? No idea). Course, that doesn't excuse or justify theft and rioting but the idea that all they have to do is work hard to get what they want is a fairytale.
So, indulge me, are there no jobs for that 22% or just no jobs they want to do ? Serious question.
I've been working on some outdoors stuff with 'troubled youths' and quite frankly most of them want a job that pays loads for no real effort - their words not mine.
all they have to do is work hard to get what they want is a fairytale
Indeed, always has been however applying yourself and being a responsible citizen will put you some way down the path further than someone putting a brick through a window to steal a TV.
how kafkaesque would watching a doc on looting,on a looted tv, be?
the mind boggles.
but on a serious note,if society feeds them the success myth,if they'll tell you anything to sell you anything.if there aren't any rolemodels,local or national.If the people that do good,and there are plenty,aren't really rewarded for it,nor are they given much attention.
If all that is successful is good.howeverwhichway you get there.
If all that is profitable is good,if profit is good.If money is good.if power,money are all good.
Pretty hard growing up,much harder when you have to do it by yourself amidst a barrage of misinformation,lies and propaganda.
I read the jimmy reid acceptance speech the other day.How many youths have access to advice like that?
I don't mean the abstract access,it's on the net.
I mean the real access,that's pretty hard.
Anyway,alienation pretty well sums this up as well.
besides,look at the wikip page that lists riots,hardly a new thing.
it's the social contract breaking down.
Too easy to (just) blame the ones that get caught up in it.For them it already has.
I mean,poor bastards,they get told they need to prove themselves by acquiring/getting/procuring all that is good,yet,mostly,are excluded from the process.
hence the shortcut.semantically they're not far off.morally,that's another story.
but the media preaching morals?politicians preaching morals?
come on.
Ladro piccolo non ti far beccare,che il ladro grosso ti fa impiccare.
nice little proverb that.
however,they were pretty stupid to get caught up in it.
CharlieMungus - Member
Trouble is some folks don't realise that what they say and how they say it makes them look like a cock to others who don't buy into the same value system as themPOSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
My Kenyan workmate pisses himself laughing at pupils up here trying to talk "gangsta" to him.By your above,is he imposing a negative stereotype on them? (While at the same time being disrespectful of the value system they are choosing to adopt.) Or does it make them little wannabies?
Thank God we have you to fight injustice on the internet for us.
Maybe grabbing a pair of trainers through a broken shop window isn't so far removed from consistently fiddling one's books to claim for a non-existant mortgage. In terms of morality, greed, integrity and respect for the the public, many politicians have hardly set a great example recently. To some extent, codes of conduct are everyone's responsibility.
pretty articulate and intelligent-sounding saying he looted and burnt to get back at the fact he had his benefits taken away, and wanted to cost the country more than it's taken from him.
That's proper scary that he appears to believe that to be justified behaviour...
His Mum probably drank or took drugs during pregnancy so hes chemical brain balance will never fire up the same way as society.
My Kenyan workmate pisses himself laughing at pupils up here trying to talk "gangsta" to him.By your above,is he imposing a negative stereotype on them? (While at the same time being disrespectful of the value system they are choosing to adopt.) Or does it make them little wannabies?
He finds it funny. It doesn't appear he is imposing a negatve stereotype. Unless of course he thinks they give up their right to a fair chance of a job because they talk like a 'Jamaican'.
Thank God we have you to fight injustice on the internet for us.
Nope, just doing what we should all do and confronting racism and bigotry in when i encounter it, in a way which I can.
I live *near* to Guildford and when at school we had a Bob Marley poster on the wall.
Y'get me...
My Kenyan workmate pisses himself laughing at pupils up here trying to talk "gangsta" to him.By your above,is he imposing a negative stereotype on them? (While at the same time being disrespectful of the value system they are choosing to adopt.) Or does it make them little wannabies?
I have black friends http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/
Nope, just doing what we should all do and confronting racism and bigotry in when i encounter it, in a way which I can.
Brilliant! Do you get a costume and a mask with that?
The way kids talk is fashion, it's for young people not old bores like us. In fact it's supposed to differentiate them from us. In other words (sic) it works perfectly.
Nope, just doing what we should all do and confronting racism and bigotry in when i encounter it, in a way which I can.
Brilliant! Do you get a costume and a mask with that?
Nope, but what do you get for ignoring it?
Exciting cyclic conversation for a Tuesday morning.
Mods - Is it possible to add a 'scrawled in green ink' option to the menu? For when it all starts getting particularly Daily Telegraph?
Seriously though - does anyone have any constructive suggestions as to how we (middle class, broadsheet-reading, mainstream society) engage with this ever increasing, hopeless underclass? It seems to me that unless we do [i]something[/i], then the next riots are already in the post really. I don't think criminalising them is a long term solution, is it?
Seriously though - does anyone have any constructive suggestions as to how we (middle class, broadsheet-reading, mainstream society) engage with this ever increasing, hopeless underclass?
Your local youth club would probably be delighted to receive your application to volunteer with them. There may even be a Bike Club or similar, where you could share your passion for cycling with young people. Nothing beats getting involved to give you a healthy balanced perspective on young people, and to remind you that, for every [i]"gangsta wannabe bell end"[/i] you come across (and there are a few!), there are umpteen kids who are brand new and great fun to be around. Nothing beats the feeling of seeing 'your' kids do well and thrive, and knowing that you've made a contribution to that process.
Picking out a good youth project to volunteer with isn't that hard - you want one that has a clear sense of purpose, that has proper procedures and processes in place to safeguard the wellbeing of young people and staff, but who don't allow themselves to be unhelpfully dominated by "health and safety".
you'll get a ban D-J; far too reasonable.
NZCol - Member
most of them want a job that pays loads for no real effort
Where do I sign up?
On the whole this thread is depressingly predictable.
On Sunday morning at 11.30 I saw a lad in his teens wearing those nike trainers come out of a Kebab shop (yep open at that time) eating a large kebab.
I once stayed at a friends house as a kid and all weekend I was fed deep fried food along with the rest of their family (of all ages). I remember being really ill for a few days afterwards!
Being a parent yourself shows you just how much every interaction, correction etc has an effect on your child. I wonder, how many give their kids McDonalds, fried food and don't correct or say 'no' on behaviour.....
****ing loads.
I wonder, how many give their kids McDonalds, fried food and don't correct or say 'no' on behaviour.....
aaah well.. there's the answer then.. obvious really
there is an element of truth in there though..
We can probably be pretty certain that an ever increasing number of kids are being purposely raised to have no respect for the state or law abiding society.. and that we already have a generation where a large proportion of the kids were raised with no hope by parents with no future.. and even more that were raised with either no concept of community or no concept of love in the home..
the problem will grow now that so many kids will be born to parents who have no hope of a future in their unloved and increasingly lawless communities..
binners - MemberMods - Is it possible to add a 'scrawled in green ink' option to the menu? For when it all starts getting particularly Daily Telegraph?
Be honest now you've never read the Daily Telegraph, have you?
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/8937250/Conservatives-under-pressure-to-explain-links-to-lobbying-firms.html ]Yes, of course only these sort of negative stories get printed in the leftwing gutter press..[/url]
I work at a large FE college. A lot of the kids here talk the talk and actually when you listen to what they are saying it's the same stuff as the kids using RP. it's easy to pigeonhole and treat people on their speech, looks, upbringing, economic status and so on. Isn't that what a lot of the kids involved in the riots were actually saying?
In my experience for every bad egg there's 9 other good ones who look the same and talk the same, the trick is using your ears to decide who is who.
IMO it's going to remain like this for another generation before we (as a nation) see the light. Haven't hit the worst of the spiral yet. Give it a year or two.
Am seriously concerned about raising little monkey in the society we have today. If we can't find what we feel is 'right' then I'd happily up sticks abroad should the combination of work/education be appropriate.
Maybe grabbing a pair of trainers through a broken shop window isn't so far removed from consistently fiddling one's books to claim for a non-existant mortgage.
Or smuggling a bike frame past customs...
cheese@4p....youth speak differentiates young people from us oldies....and you're right, that has always been the intention....the problem young people have got (and it is their problem) is that the oldies who are in positions to hire and fire young people cant understand half of what is being said in the ridiculous urban patois....or understand it but feel it is too ridiculous to put out front as the contact point for a business.
That is not the fault of the older generation, kids who have decided to adopt a patois so far removed from how the rest of society speak that they make themselves unemployable need to rethink their ways not vice versa.
There was a documentary a few years back with John Prescott going into London tower block estates to find out about youth unemployment....he seemed genuinely shocked when a young British girl told him she wouldnt do a cleaning job because it would be too humiliating....he ventured that claiming benefits was surely more humiliating and now it was her turn to look completely shocked.
This is what needs to change, young British kids (for whatever reason) have decided that cleaning jobs and the like are somehow beneath them....but a life on benefits is socially acceptable!
All the lower paid jobs at my work are taken by older people or eastern european immirants, virtually no British youngsters....i asked why and was told in no uncertain terms that they dont want to work.
A previous poster hit the nail on the head when he said their attitude is to work as little as possible for as much as possible....while that sounds fantastic its just not going to happen, whoever is paying the wages wants a fair days work from an employee.
Much easier to just riot and blame the police, government etc etc (yawn)....
I think you speak a certain truth there deviant, even though you choose to go to another linguistic extreme in a weak attempt to demonstrate something, but that doesn't excuse your earlier racism.
i agree with ditch_jockeys post above
volunteering for youth work is rewarding and is about the only thing anyone can do to show the 'feral youth of today' that work does infact pay
its basically big society in action
the trouble is 'big society' has been hijacked by a morally corrupt etonian who [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8107702.stm ]claimed tens of thousands of pounds on expenses for mortgage interest on a cottage in his Oxford constituency, after clearing the loan on his designated main London home.[/url]
whos government has slashed funding for social outreach, youth clubs, policing etc, etc
This is what needs to change, young British kids (for whatever reason) have decided that cleaning jobs and the like are somehow beneath them....but a life on benefits is socially acceptable!
The problem with this is that you're extrapolating from one example to suggest that it's universal phenomenon. Strangely enough,it's as difficult to generalise about young people as it is about adults. During the course of a week, I'll work with around 60-70 young people in one way or another and their attitude to work covers pretty much the same spectrum as adults I know; some of them are very focused and driven, others don't seem to have very much of a work ethic at all. In many cases, the ones who tend towards the latter category haven't taken a conscious decision to slack off, it's more common to find they're a bit lost and dislocated from what they want their lives to be about. The hard bit is trying to prevent them from slipping into a lifestyle that involves coping using drugs and alcohol - once that happens, it becomes massively more complicated to get them back into a constructive way of life they can sustain without lots of support.
We just raised benefits by 5.2% but cut tax allowances for the low paid poor. What kind of message does that send? And thats from a Tory led government! We've lost our marbles.
We've lost our marbles.
nail. on. head.
positive role models are useful...
the more adults you see spending time helping those less fortunate than themselves and working hard to better themselves the more likely a feral youth will entertain it as an option for a brighter future. most people i know between the ages of 25 and 40 are still spending their evenings shouting abuse at kids on their xbox's, binge drinking on the weekends and outwardly appearing to value their bling more than their impact on society.
i'm not saying this is the answer... but when adults nowadays are more like teenagers with the odd bill to pay then what motivation is there for the feral youth to grow up and start acting like an adult?
don simon - Member
I think you speak a certain truth there deviant, even though you choose to go to another linguistic extreme in a weak attempt to demonstrate something, but that doesn't excuse your earlier racism.
DS - which bit of deviant's comments do you consider to be explicitly racist?
[i]We just raised benefits by 5.2% but cut tax allowances for the low paid poor.[/i]
I've got to say, I found that absolutely incredible when I read it. Wasn't IDS's main goal to prevent this kind of anomaly? Obviously that's going well
I have to say D-S. I think his earlier post was poorly worded rather than racist.
Edit; beaten to it.
I have to say D-S. I think his earlier post was poorly worded rather than racist.
Fair enough, I'll go with misguided and clumsy rather than racist, I apologise deviant.
He is, however, no better than the people he calls cretins.
deviant - MemberThis is what needs to change, young British kids (for whatever reason) have decided that cleaning jobs and the like are somehow beneath them....but a life on benefits is socially acceptable!
Some have. Well, for one thing, when you're looking around at friends and family on benefits, you've pretty much got a choice between deciding it's socially acceptable to be on benefits, or living in contempt of your friends and family.
But like I mentioned up the page- there are 1 million unemployed youths in this country. There aren't 1 million cleaning jobs waiting to be filled. The problem isn't that 1 million kids are unwilling to work.
When I was in joblesstrackworld at the start of the year, my job centre was in a pretty scabby area, lots of second-gen benefits claimants etc. And being a nosey get I couldn't help but pick stuff up from conversations and interviews around me. Some of those kids were just on the road to nowhere but others were keen to work, and absolutely crushed about it. The back-to-work group sessions were an exercise in depression and broken hopes.
And then, there was a flipside, I was sat there with an honours degree and 10 years constant work experience, and the job centre kept trying to put me into entry-level jobs that in another time these kids would have been doing. What hope for them, if the jobs they could do are being pushed (and pushed hard) onto folks like me?
I have to say D-S. I think his earlier post was poorly worded rather than racist.
Poorly worded? Such that people had difficulty understanding him? Oh dear!
Racist bits?
Well, I think conflating the idea of Jamaican identity with negative stereotype or being a prick is pretty racist.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, when these retards talk like a bad impression of Ali-G nobody in their right mind is going to give them a job....it sounds particularly bad when the jamaican patois being spouted at you is coming from a white person
..you'll find that blacks in the US that talk in hip-hop speak and act 'gangsta' also have a hard time getting work....its not about the colour of the skin, its about not acting and looking like a prick
there are plenty of blacks in this country and the US who dont feel the need to conform to negative racial stereotypes
if the accent they are using has Caribbean overtones when they have never been to those islands then it just becomes comical
Without of course mentioning the trend for Manchester accents or Mockney accents. Just as ridiculous surely? But it seems Jamaican is particularly bad. Why just Jamaican? Are you sure it is Jamaican or os that some general term for the West Indies or Caribbean?
Because inflation came in at 5.2% in September benefits automatically go up by that amount. That despite pterry much everyone expects inflation to drop pretty sharply next year.
I can only think they were spooked by what public opinion would say, or more specifically, Pensioners. I think they got this one wrong, no way should pensions and benefits be going up by this much when we're cutting tax relief for the low paid and imposing 1% pay rise on the public sector.
It's becoming a cliche but my Pret a Manger has not a single Brit working in it today. What on earth are we doing?
Charlie stop shouting racist. I might not have chosen the same words as Deviant but black culture isnt and shouldnt be above criticism. Ask David Lammy.
Racist comedy then?
if the accent they are using has Caribbean overtones when they have never been to those islands then it just becomes comical
hmm.. possibly..
but if most in your community.. many at your school.. all of your positive and negative role models.. all of your peer group and possibly your parents and siblings speak with a dialect.. wouldn't it be even stranger for you to renounce that dialect.. because tubby insular cyclist number3 finds it difficult to relate to.. especially if you're say.. 10 years old..?
what's your accent and where did it come from and why..?
(I'm relating this conversation on dialect and accent to my experience growing up on a SW UK council estate)
dis thread is bare jokes fam!
DezB....'Phoneshop' does a great job of lampooning the accent of choice for youngsters today....perhaps i should have used that as an example instead?....people get so touchy when they think race is being brought into....i'll reiterate again for those that missed it the first time....speaking like either of the two nobbers in Phoneshop will not curry favour with a propsective middle aged employer sat the other side of the interview desk.
You get me brah?!
I knew what you meant.
Racist.
( 😉 )
deviant = twit
You really do have a costume and mask.
Without of course mentioning the trend for Manchester accents or Mockney accents. Just as ridiculous surely?
I took that as said, but then I wasn't looking to fight racism everywhere I find it...sorry; and bigotry
Charlie stop shouting racist. I might not have chosen the same words as Deviant but black culture isnt and shouldnt be above criticism. Ask David Lammy
Of course not, nor should it be, by definition a bad thing. Such that a black stereotype is negative