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On the news tonight, it's being proposed that the toll-booths will be removed, and tolls will be collected in both directions via number-plate recognition, with the toll set at around £1.90-ish each way.
Now, I'm fine with reducing the cost by around half of what it currently is, as the bridges still have to be maintained, and that costs money, and it certainly does seem fairer to pay for each trip across, but using number-plate recognition seems to have some issues, like charging foreign vehicles, and vehicles carrying trade-plates, which is my situation, because the cars I drive back and forth across the bridges often have no tax or insurance, that's covered by the trade plates, but would the ANPR system work with them? It would certainly make my job [i]so[/i] much easier not having to stop, pay the toll then have to claim it back when I send my time sheet in. 😀
Would/could it be used to catch any untaxed/uninsured drivers?
Would it be able to laugh at comedic private plates (they're not private if you have to contort the digits)?
Dartford crossing does this, bit like the congestion charge for payment. So long as it's cheaper I am in, nearly £15 in a van!
If you were designing an APNR system, would you make it so that it could handle trade plates?
hmm, I bet these new cameras and systems will have to come at the expense of people using it instead of just doing as they promised: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-35812565
On balance I'm happy to let a few foreigners and motortraders through if lifts the traffic a bit, what's it going to be? 5%, less?
I think it reverts back to public ownership soon, hence the toll reduction.
As mentioned, Dartford crossing changed last year .. caused a bit of angst..caught quite a few untaxed/insured/mot'd folks out and going by the news feeds has no problem charging them thier foreigners... plenty of truckers complained initially, but now they just carry on surfing pron on thier iPads as they blat over the bridge.
Honestly, I see no problem with ANPR charging. If it catches some folks out for not being legal then that's a bonus. Also, glad the charge is both ways. I've never understood why the Welsh never got charged.
I'm waiting for the bridge over the Solent to the IOW to be built.
Who told you about the 'Welsh Expemption'? I'm sure a Welsh registered car will be able to claim free crossings as easy as showing ID to the toll takers.
Ok, I "thought" the charge was only going "in" to Wales. So no charge coming out, which I think is very odd.
Happy to prove being wrong, I don't go to Wales.
Don't most people cross both ways anyway? Once to visit, and back the other way to return to their miserable English homes...? 😉 😆
Oh you're right - there's only tolls one way, there was a study that showed that the number of people who leave Wales and never return is tiny, like 0.1% basically people who die on holiday.
Whereas quite a few people come to Wales and never leave - 1-2% it's the views I think.
But still 99% of people who go one way, end up coming back at one point or other so it's more efficient to just charge one way.
I thought you meant to 'special' EU development grant which means if you live in Wales you don't have to pay, you can either show ID on the toll or get a Tag. It's not well publicised for obvious reason!
I've never understood why the Welsh never got charged.
Love it when people say this. Obviously us Welsh love England so much we never come back home once we cross the bridge 😀
Think the idea is great I'm all for it.
Sounds like a good idea.
I wouldn't trust the cheaper argument for a second, it will soon be the same or higher. They will have the ability to charge vans / trucks differently I would imagine.
@bikeboiy how do they charge foreigner plate cars, how do they pursue them for non-payment. Allegedly they don't pursue foreign registered vehicles for the congestion charge for example.
I have one objection. I bet it would include motorcycles which are currently free. About the time the tolls went one way they tried to charge m/c's but the hassle of waiting for a rider to take off gloves, unzip a jacket, find a wallet then reverse the process was silly. Can't se any difference otherwise unless the total cost plummets.
Bonus if it catches illegals though.
Wish that Welsh thing were true - I work in Bristol so it would make a flippin' difference!
Always used to pay tolls crossing on a motorbike (old bridge), and your right it was a pain.
there was a study that showed that the number of people who leave Wales and never return is tiny, like 0.1%
Also people who leave on the M4 but then come back another way. I often take M4/M5 on the way out if I am going North cos it's smoother and easier and only slightly longer, but come back on the M50/A40.
Anyway - charging one way isn't odd at all. Collect basically same amount of money, only employ half the staff, only have to maintain half the machines, barriers and signs, and we only have to stop one way. The definition of win/win.
I wouldn't trust the cheaper argument for a second, it will soon be the same or higher. They will have the ability to charge vans / trucks differently I would imagine.
They currently do, but what it will mean is it gets charged off the official registration of the vehicle so all those who put a window in their van and pretend it's a camper will pay full fare, it's probably a valid claim to have a personal use designation for some vans.
Better than the French Toll version which simply worked on height.
A simple integrated system would probably be to share the toll collecting data across all roads (m6 toll etc) and the ports as a final collection - no boarding with outstanding tolls.
Interesting to see the general take is positive. Using trade plates I guess they'll be read just like any other plate, they're DoT issued anyway, so payment will be met by whoever has the plates issued to them, which will certainly make things much easier going backwards and forwards, the only thing is that placement of plates may become more crucial; as agency drivers, our plates have no external fittings, so they get stuck inside the front and rear windows, but some cars design makes the rear placement very awkward.
Still, it's just getting used to how the system operates and working with it. Not having to pay for my own ticket whenever I take a car across on business will make my life easier! 😀
And halving the cost makes life easier for everyone using the bridges as well.
If I have to go to that there London place, I usually go up via the M4/Severn Bridge and come back via Swindon-Cirencester-Gloucester-A40 😀
I thought trade plates had to be at either end of the vehicle as only the bit between was insured?
Edit its against the law to display trade plates in windows. They need to replace the number plates so originals not visible. Google working well (dad and grandad were both in the trade)
I'm all for it, stopping for tolls is a bit bizarre in this day and age. If they also use it to report uninsured drivers etc then so much the better.
I've never seen the stats for the Dartford crossing charging Foreigners for the privilege, simply hearsay.
Also the Severn Bridge, it's well known a lot of folks use the alternative route and not the bridge when going back into Wales.
I really should come back one day to South Wales, a lot of my riding and surfing mates keep on about how lovely the area is, maybe one day...
I bet it would include motorcycles which are currently free. About the time the tolls went one way they tried to charge m/c's but the hassle of waiting for a rider to take off gloves, unzip a jacket, find a wallet then reverse the process was silly.
Still free for motorcycles on the dartford crossing so I doubt they would start charging on the severn bridge, plus use of forward facing cameras...
If it works like Dartford then that would be great. Just don't go to South Wales that way while they're tearing all the old booths out. I think they did a decent job of managing the works at Dartford at the time but it was still very unpleasant.
Also the Severn Bridge, it's well known a lot of folks use the alternative route and not the bridge when going back into Wales.
Really? I used to do it sometimes when I was about 20 but it adds a lot of time and distance so what you spend more on fuel than you save on the toll. (Without accounting for your Time).
I think "lots of folks" would be "almost no one".
I drove across at a busy time recently - I suspect the main incentive is to increase the flow. Jams up badly at the booths sometimes.
But folks still use the M48...
I've never seen the stats for the Dartford crossing charging Foreigners for the privilege, simply hearsay.
Personal,(and friends) experience says that apart from the super efficient Swiss cross border charging (inc speeding tickets) doesn't happen
I would have number plate recognition and a barrier, if system doesn't recognise your plate barrier doesn't open and you have to pay cash/card. Any vehicles with unpaid tolls are blocked till past due toll paid.
The Singaporeans have a fabulous (in terms of working) system with small dashboard box (inc motorbikes) which collects tolls and car park charges. Downside is every vhicle has to buy and install one.
Yeah but the jam is always much worse at Newport anyway.
Maybe it's time for a Vignette for vehicles from overseas, freeflow tolling system would just treat the registered vehicle in a similar way to a TAG
Retaining Barriers would negate the benefits of getting rid of the toll booths
When traffic free Dartford is a lot easier. Not very often.
I don't think they charge foreign drivers. They worked out it is cheaper to get rid of the tolls ( and people) than to charge foreign drivers.
^^ pretty sure that'll be in place in the next few years 😉
The ANPR cameras will never read trade plates that are on the dashboard facing the sky 😉
And for the trade plates experts. Can a cardealer use a trade plate on a car they are trying to sell for test drives by a potential customer ?
The old crossing is currently free.
What?
Yes, what?? How long for?
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Oh that's a great gag, well done.
Oh that's a great gag, well done.
You're welcome.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-35553512 ]This[/url] article from earlier in the year potentially explains what is happening. It seems that preparations are probably being made for the bridges to return to public ownership.
Seems like a sensible idea to me. Technology can't be that complicated as it has been used for Londons congestion charge for years. Anything to free up the flow of traffic is a good idea.
However it does make you think why does the Welsh government not just cover the full cost of the bridges. Im sure a tiny increases in taxes would easily cover it.
It and the Dartford have been in positive equity for years.
Both are a huge two fingers to everyone as from the outset they were only supposed to be toll charged until they were paid for.
If you ever write a cheque for the Dartford it is paid to "Le Tunnel" so work it out.....
It and the Dartford have been in positive equity for years.
Both are a huge two fingers to everyone as from the outset they were only supposed to be toll charged until they were paid for.
If you ever write a cheque for the Dartford it is paid to "Le Tunnel" so work it out.....
Including operating expenses and taking on the pre-existing debt for the first bridge the second crossing hasn't quiet paid off the deal to the funders, but will soon. Hence the reduction in tolls.
It's meant to be cut by 50% in 2018, but that was a pre-Brexit promise and I don't know if there was an element of public subsidy in that.
If it goes to the WA they want to cut it a lot or even make it free - they are quite keen on making it easier to get in and out of Wales.
the Dartford toll is managed by a French company .
the Dartford toll is managed by a French company .
zut alors
Just a quick follow up to something that was said here, I was trying to find any further info on this subject and this thread was high in the Google search;
I thought trade plates had to be at either end of the vehicle as only the bit between was insured?Edit its against the law to display trade plates in windows. They need to replace the number plates so originals not visible. Google working well (dad and grandad were both in the trade)
To be clear, agency drivers like myself who work for the likes of BCA are issued with just a pair of standard trade plates that have no means for attaching them to the car externally, the [i]only[/i] option is to put them into the car windows.
Some cars, however, have no surround on the back window into which a plate can be pushed, and many light commercial vehicles have solid rear doors, or mesh protected, so it's impossible to mount the plates there.
We've been told that so long as a pair of plates are displayed, to show that one hasn't been put into another car, then the police don't care, it shows that the car is covered if the tax, insurance or MOT have run out, which is sometimes the case if it's a lease car that's taken a while to arrange for it to be picked up.
I'm sure clear info on this will filter through, I'll have been back and forth over the Severn to Newport three, four, possibly five times this week, with a different car every time, although sometimes I'll be taken over and bring a car back, so after November, the free trip won't happen any more.
Maybe they'll just ignore trade plated cars as not worth bothering about.
The M50 in Ireland is toll free (e flow) and they are perfectly adept at tracking down and charging foreign vehicles, in fact they excell at it
I use the dart ford crossing with a car on German plates...
System works well, I have an account and it's easy to use.
Due to an error at the dart ford end, I know there is a connection that traces plates and owners to recover non payment. The one way crossing charge then changes to €196 which a company called Media Incasso try and recover.
Same company deals with uk parking tickets.
Count Zero the trade plates DO NOT cover insurance, just registration and VED stuff. (I have a nephew who discovered this the hard way). Insurance will be arranged via your employers business policy. MoT certs I'm not certain of but I suspect the vehicle will need a valid cert to be driven on the road. [url= https://www.gov.uk/trade-licence-plates ]This page[/url] makes no mention of MoT being covered.
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cchris2lou - Member
the Dartford toll is managed by a French company .
Sanef, who do the French tolls. Though odd they use a different system instead of just using the tags they use in France. Maybe no barriers and trying to bill people based on registration is cheaper than barriers and a tag plus people collecting cash for those without them. I do like being able to sail through the tag lane though while the peasants queue for cash payment.