New (to me) PHEV or EV

I’d buy a Zoe.

Sorry!

I would buy a leaf, Zoe or i3.

Probably a bit cheaper than your budget.
And hire an internal combustion car if there's long weekend or holidays warranty.

I doubt many hybrids have enough range on pure electric.

Should say we have a diesel car for long trips so this is for up to max 150 return trips, but mostly 30-40 miles city driving. Had almost come to a similar conclusion about the hybrids but any nicer alternatives to the Leaf or Zoe?

BMW I3 range extender?

I dont think id buy a PHEV, worst of both worlds, lots to go wrong.
Id really try and go full EV, I wouldn't stress that much about range if you are mostly around an urban centre, charging speed is probably more important to you.

I3 would be the logical choice buy there are 5 of us so need a bigger car.

Like the look of the BMW 330e for around £15k used but the electric range is not enough for the commute both ways. It could manage electric one way and hybrid on the way back.

I owned a BMW 330e from new for 5 years.

In some ways a beautiful car, very powerful, reasonable handling.

By the time I sold it at 5 yrs old it did about 8 miles absolute max on electric alone

It averaged low 40’s fully charged, but with no charge about mid 20’s (which is what it would be doing on the 2nd half the commute especially if in a built up area)

I would say the car would be wasted diff use in London

Yeah that was my concern about the PHEVs. They only have a short range to start with and no doubt will have degraded in a 6 or 7 year old version that I could afford.

So narrowing down to fully electric. Any thoughts on the e Golf?

I’ve had an eGolf for the last two years and it’s made a pretty good commuting car.

Range is a realistic 120 miles in the winter with the heating on but I have got 160 miles out of it driving like a granny with the heating off.

Test drove a Leaf before getting the eGolf and while it was probably technically better than the VW, I just couldn’t get the driving position to work for me - it didn’t have a height adjustable steering wheel. Maybe it has on higher spec/more recent models.

While I live in Gloucestershire I have driven it in London a lot, particularly in west London where the local councils have added charge points to the base of street lamps. And this leads to the one flaw with the eGolf - the charge socket is where the filler cap was on the petrol/diesel versions rather than centrally on the nose as with other EVs. You have to consider how you park the car so that the charge socket is on the pavement side and so that the cable reaches the charger. Not a massive problem but can be tricky sometimes.

Stick an autotrader search filter on for your budget and electric only and you'll see there's a massively limited choice, especially as you want something big enough for 5 people.

It's leaf or golf, basically...

Have you considered pocketing the cash and leasing for a few years? By then there should be a fair few more options on the used market.

Consider lexus/toyota too.
I wouldn’t write off phev totally, just be realistic about what they can achieve, they’re still better than a pure petrol/diesel. What sort of prius can you get for that budget?

Yes, the choice is very limited. That's why I'm going round in circles trying to balance something I actually want to drive vs cost. I have considered leasing but have never done it and I feel like I would prefer to put the same amount of money into a car that Will have some residual value in a few years.
Not completely opposed to a normal hybrid. I like the look of the Lexus ct200h but unsure about real world economy. Not really keen on a Prius...

GTE is great to drive if you want something with a bit of poke every now and then. However like most PHEVs it only really makes sense if your daily commute is 20 miles between charges and you have space to charge at home.

If you’re not after something with performance / range then choose a BEV such as a Golf E.

City driving will see you exceed the rated range in all but very cold conditions. I wouldn't bother with a PHEV at this point, as it'll just hammer the fuel economy trying to recharge the battery on the way home.

If you can get a charger put in at work it makes more sense. Otherwise your generic EV like the Zoe will work fine.

The problem with buying now is that you’re going to spend a premium on an electric or hybrid which will be very old by the time you come to sell it in 5 years. Realistically - what will it’s value be? Let’s assume you spent £15k, factor in repairs and servicing of £1000 a year over 5 years. That’s £20k.

Let’s further assume that you’re paying £4K more than you should be for it right now. So in 5 years, at the absolute best it would be worth around £6k. More realistically it’s residual will be £4K. So your total outlay is £14-16k (excluding fuel and insurance) over 5 years. If you can get a lease car, for £200/m over the 5 years, assume 6months down payment and you’re into it for £13k. You don’t have a car at the end, but your total outlay is less, your car is newer and your likelihood of big bills is small.

If you can get a lease car, for £200

Any examples.... looking at lease options on carwow that gets you an e-up .. Seems a far cry from the used vehicles the op is looking at.

Even at 300 quid a month the options are pretty dire....

Any examples…. looking at lease options on carwow that gets you an e-up .. Seems a far cry from the used vehicles the op is looking at.

Even at 300 quid a month the options are pretty dire….

This is the issue with buying/leasing an EV at the moment, if you want something decent size and/or with a decent range, they're just sooooo damn expensive. And they're too new to be much cheaper used.

Buying an EV now, it's either a cheaper low range supermini, or a £40-50k+ 250 mile range model. There's nothing really in between.

I'm waiting a few years, my diesel Skoda will be just fine for that long.

I have an Ioniq EV. The older ones are only 28kWh battery as opposed to 38kWh but that's ok if you are just using it for commuting and the range works. They look after their batteries well, range is honest and for me at least doesn't fall off a cliff in the winter.

When budgeting factor in the lowe running costs. We are paying 5p per kWh off peak on Octopus Go which makes our motoring cost 1p/mile in summer. That's going up to 7.5p soon and in winter we only get about 4.5 miles per kWh so it's more but still trivially cheap. The 28kWh Ioniq is probably a good deal if the range works because people will be scared of lower range.

Buying an EV now, it’s either a cheaper low range supermini,

I think the Leaf, Zoe, Kona short range version and Ioniq EV sit between those groups.

Yes this is the issue. Maybe it is a case of waiting a few more years. Any views on traditional hybrids like the Lexus? Would a, say, 5 or 6 year old version be much more efficient in the conditions described than a tradional petrol car? I realise it would be less pokey than my old 150hp Golf but it looks OK to me.

Thanks @molgrips. The Ioniq is the other one I was looking at so good to get a first hand account. The cost of motoring is the reason I could stretch more for an ev as would be covered by the savings.

Buying an EV now,

Local VW dealership quoted me a year wait for an ID3, so buying an EV now (as in now) seems like a dream 🙂

Thanks @molgrips. The Ioniq is the other one I was looking at so good to get a first hand account.

Overall it's a good car, I like driving it, but the infotainment is annoying.

I wouldn’t bother with a PHEV at this point, as it’ll just hammer the fuel economy trying to recharge the battery on the way home.

Nope. When the battery depletes the car reverts to standard hybrid mode. It will only charge on petrol if you tell it to. Passat GTE here and all return commutes (bar summer hols) require the engine to kick in at some point in the day. Not necessarily an issue if you are strategic about when this happens. Quite easy with the mode button.
Also you get the benefit of preheat function like an EV.
I probably do 80% of my journeys on electric. 60% of my mileage though due to a handful of long runs.

Yeah my colleague has a 330e and for him the engine kicks in in the last 5 or so miles of his commute. He charges at home so the engine doesn't need to charge the battery.

I wouldn't bother with a 2nd hand EV, the market is not there yet, you will pay over the odds for one and it'll be 10 year old technology with a limited lifespan. The new EV market is just beginning to properly get going with a wide choice of models but the prices are still eye watering and the waits ridiculous. Prices will come down, cost of ICE will continue to increase, at some point they will make economical sense as well as environmental sense, probably in the next 18 months. They second hand market will pick up in 3 to 4 years when the current crop of new EVs hit the market having finished the lease / PCP they were bought on.

City driving will see you exceed the rated range in all but very cold conditions. I wouldn’t bother with a PHEV at this point, as it’ll just hammer the fuel economy trying to recharge the battery on the way home.

That's not how they work. When the battery is low they operate the same as a HEV.

Yeah my colleague has a 330e and for him the engine kicks in in the last 5 or so miles of his commute. He charges at home so the engine doesn’t need to charge the battery.

I had one of the earlier 330e’s there was no way to stop it charging below 20% battery which meant it ate fuel. At OP’s budget he’s only going to get an early one

We have a diesel for occasional long journeys or big loads, but use an EV for at least 9 out of 10 journeys - I think you are in the same situation.

Don’t get a PHEV - they are a bad option for relatively short ranges, but a reasonable option for longer trips - but you have the diesel for that.

Don’t bother with a hybrid - that’s a petrol car with one specific clever way to improve fuel economy in some situations.

I’d buy a Zoe

That’s what I did second hand and we are very pleased - quiet, particularly good in the city and over 150miles real life range. But if you want something else just search EVs in Autotrader against your specific price range.

Don’t bother with a hybrid – that’s a petrol car with one specific clever way to improve fuel economy in some situations.

Not all hybrids are the same. And not all hybrids are bad...

A decent rule of thumb is..... Hybrid = Toyota...

But there as so many bad hybrids from other mfg you need to go in having done your research.

I came to the opinion that the premium was too much(for an ev with a useful range) and that a petrol car and fuel to cover 50000 miles was a better option for the same money.

Don’t bother with a hybrid – that’s a petrol car with one specific clever way to improve fuel economy in some situations.

Non plugin hybrids aren't bad, they give small diesel economy (or better) from a large petrol. That's all they do though.

And a lot more welly, the self charging 1.6 petrol we've got on order (who knows when it might arrive, certainly not the dealer) is 225 bph, the 1.6 petrol on its own is around 160 bhp.

And a lot more welly, the self charging 1.6 petrol we’ve got on order (who knows when it might arrive, certainly not the dealer) is 225 bph

Is it the rally version ?

Apart from paying less, I want to burn less fossil fuel if possible (and economical) so I do want to move away from a pure petrol or diesel car ideally. Still going round in circles and have noticed that the newer Leaf doesn't look as terrible (to me) as the old version. It's a bit more than I would like to pay but looks like less of a compromise than other EVs I've been looking at. Anyone driven one? How was it?

Try using the VW EV checker app on your commute, it was an eye opener for me as it said that like-for-like I was better off financially if I bought a 1.6d Golf over an id3 if I was doing less that 15k miles a year. Probably different for you with an urban commute.

Environmental impact aside of course.

have noticed that the newer Leaf doesn’t look as terrible (to me) as the old version.

It's a great car. We test drove one as well as a Zoe and a Kona. The Leaf was my favourite car overall, felt like a decent family car. Nice inside, good to drive, nippy. Couldn't fault it really. We went with the Ioniq in the end because the extra bit of range meant we'd be able to go see my parents in a single charge, whereas it was borderline on the leaf. But it's a better car I think. There are long and short range options available if you want to save money.

Try using the VW EV checker app on your commute, it was an eye opener for me as it said that like-for-like I was better off financially if I bought a 1.6d Golf over an id3 if I was doing less that 15k miles a year.

That must factor in a certain time of ownership though, as the EV stays cheap to run and the longer you drive EV the more you can offset the purchase cost. Also, does it take into account super cheap off peak electricity?

When weighing up wether or not to keep running an EV as well as the diesel, I calculated that we d have to be doing 1500 miles a month for it to be worth the £200 lease. Of course we'd never get an EV for that now though and Arval would be fools if they were let me keep mine going at that price, which is why they wouldn't.

Not all hybrids are the same. And not all hybrids are bad

And nobody said they were “bad”. But I think we are all busy agreeing they are an economy device for internal combustion engines, and not a form of electric vehicle.

I'm sure we all agree how ever Using less fuel and more so using less fuel in urban areas is a good thing no ?

I wouldn’t touch a secondhand ev yet. If there is a problem with the battery then your replacement Wii cost as much as the car. EVs aren’t yet well enough sorted imho to be a serious consideration

I wouldn’t touch a secondhand ev yet. If there is a problem with the battery then your replacement Wii cost as much as the car.

Not necessarily - they are modular, and a whole replacement is probably unlikely. You can just change cells. Although the labour wouldn't be cheap. Also they are often warrantied for a long time - 8 years/100k miles in the case of Leaves.

If there is a problem with the battery then your replacement will cost as much as replacing the engine in a ICE car

Sounds alot like my wife's colleagues not too old not high milage 1l ecoboost engine that lunched it's self....

A quick look on Autotrader is showing old gen Kia Souls for £14-15k. 110-130 miles range but that's actually realistic. The computers in these are amazing. And I think the older ones use Chademo for rapid charging so less problems with handshaking/broken chargers compared to CCS. Really long warranty too. Got a range boost for 2018 so look for an 18/19. We have a current gen and it's amazing. Will do 200 miles through the Highlands in winter and come back within 5 miles of the estimated range. This is something Hyundai group get really spot on, and it makes a huge difference to living with it. Our Peugeot van is all over the place, it loses 10 miles if you turn it off and on again! The Souls get a sort of reverse ugly tax, so better deals.

Thanks for the heads up on the Soul. Really useful feedback but the more I look into it the more I'm starting to justify to myself the newer Leaf, especially if there is an 8 year warranty on the battery as above as that's the bit that's stressing me out most about dropping a significant (to me) chunk of change on an ev.

You certainly can't go wrong with a Leaf either if you can find one in budget. Same warranty as the Soul, well known to be great solid cars. Same Chademo socket too - most of our rapid charge failures are down to CCS protocol issues, while Leafs happily charge away next to us...

Do you have anything other than anecdote to justify your Chademo preference, pigyn? No issues with CCS on the Zoé and never charged next to anyone else with issues despite using them in four different countries. In the comparatives I've read CCS is favoured as capable of higher charge rates, more charge points and future assured unlike Chademo which no longer has EU guarantees.

I don't look at Chademo chargers but there certainly are a lot of faulty CCS ones. I don't know if it's CCS-specific though.

I favoured a CCS equipped car because the suggestion was that it was likely to become more common in the future, but I don't know if that's actually the case. A lot of internet is devoted to telling us that Chademo is a legacy standard - even the latest Nissan now has CCS instead. So I might be a bit worried about buying a Chademo car with a view to keeping it.

Do you have anything other than anecdote to justify your Chademo preference, pigyn? No issues with CCS on the Zoé and never charged next to anyone else with issues despite using them in four different countries.

You just tried to counter an anecdote with another anecdote 🙂

You certainly can’t go wrong with a Leaf either if you can find one in budget.

The new shape ones, that is. The old ones had poor battery heat management and hence much shorter life.

They did aye, and my preference is still a Soul but you see plenty of them going about so must be OK 🤷 They aren't all in the bin.

Both ours are CCS and long term provisions for Chademo might be an issue, but most being installed now still do both. I think.

CCS is fantastic, we get 100kw in the van and it's fantastic, but, the amount of times we have tried to charge places and it's failed during handshaking is crazy. Perhaps it's the naff CPS aging chargers.

My preference is for CCS, but if I was looking to spend 15-20 on a used one then there are ways to look at Chademo as an advantage. Then again I was charging at the Stirling hub, leaf shows up next to me and can't get it to work. I offered to move to her one as if it didn't work I could in a pinch just leave, but the one I was on didn't work for her either. And her first one was fine for me. Rapid charging eh.

Perhaps it’s the naff CPS aging chargers.

Have a look at the comments on an app that has them. If people are regularly charging without issue the problem is more likely to be your car than the charger. If there are a series of reports of failing to charge it's more likely to be the charger, in which case go to another one.

I think the main reason I anecdoteally haven't had many failed charges is because I don't go to charge points that people are having trouble with. The failures have been T2 rather than CCS, usually down to the badge not being recognised so I have to use the app instead or phone the call centre for a remote start.

Oh great! I thought I'd found the ideal car for me. Hadn't realy looked in to charing standards though. A scan of various comments online confirms that chademo is probably on the way out, eventually, which I guess would hit resale values in a few years. Back to the drawing board then. Or maybe I should just go for the Ioniq. I hear the love for the Soul but not really what I'm looking for.

a bit last-gen but renault fluences are large, electric, and available with a battery lease instead of purchase, which might suit your fears. They're also stupidly cheap (£5k or so) due to the monthly cost of the battery as well. I think the Zoe was available with the same leasing pattern too

Back to the drawing board then. Or maybe I should just go for the Ioniq.

Yeah you don't have that many options at that end of the market, but they are all good ones to be fair. There are also two models from MG now that might be worth a look - the MG5 and MGZS EVs.

I borrowed a Fluence for a day, or should I say an hour and a half of driving over the day by which time the battery was low. The battery didn't give much range when new and by now will be down to 80% or thereabouts. For a commute it would be fine, anything beyond that would be a pain. I test drove an early 23kWH Kangoo too but realised that with the range and charging infrastructure at the time I couldn't even get it home. Both good enough vehicles but fatally flawed by small batteries in relation to the weight and bulk.

MG? A colleague of mine walked into an MG garage in a Jaguar F-Pace, and was offered a wadge of cach to drive away in a brand new MG5 off the forecourt!

MG ZS also an option. I think lease's can be had for £250-300. I think they have a new small car in the works too.

Full EV, another cost of charging from home is installing a charge point. Though can trickle charge from 13A domestic plug but I imagine this isn't great.

If on street parking, that's more tricky.

Some argue the whole issue of charging at home is irrelevant and you just go to a public charge point. Fine if you can find one rapid enough and have a couple of hours to spare with somewhere nearby to go to while it charges (I checked near me. Big town, but seriously lacking in useful charge points. Many are just 13A).

Not gone there yet but I'm EV curious as my ancient Civic is showing its age. As reliable as Honda are, anything going wrong now could be major and costly. Plus fuel prices and emissions and all that.

I wanted next car to be EV. Though I really want another Honda. Ideally an e-Civic. I'm fine with half the range, around 200/250 would be good. Honda just don't do anything decent though. Hybrids or their city mini thing which is useless for range and no where near enough space inside.

Some argue the whole issue of charging at home is irrelevant and you just go to a public charge point.

My experience is the contrary - we have a drive and paid for the charger, it’s not a big cost in the grand scheme of things. We can fully charge the Zoe 40kWh overnight with time to spare, and it’s far cheaper and more convenient than public charging.

Of course if you have no off street parking, or plan to do a lot of long distances, your attitude might be different.

Some argue the whole issue of charging at home is irrelevant and you just go to a public charge point. Fine if you can find one rapid enough and have a couple of hours to spare with somewhere nearby to go to while it charges

I'm not sure anyone's saying it's irrelevant. Charging away from home is very expensive for starters.

However, it doesn't take a couple of hours on good rapid charger. Usually talking about 45-60 mins.

The folk saying home charging is irrelevant usually live within walking distance of one of the many free chargers that as part of planning had to remain free to public for 2-3 years......

They won't always be free.....

accepting you have a family of 5.. does this car actually need to carry them all at the same time? if you have some other (bigger) car, could an i3 do all your trips and you just use the other car when you need the whole family out? seems like your happy to compromise on long trip range for a similar reason..

That's what we do. The Ioniq is plenty big enough for 4 of us and we do all local driving and commuting in it, as well as trips to my parents and similar stuff. But we have the big diesel if I need to go away for work and it's good for holidays etc. That said we did the trip to our holiday at Easter in the EV and that saved us about £25.

We hopefully won't need to continue with a car commute and school run after July though so it will be less useful then.

It's a good point about the i3 and true that we will be able to use the diesel for all 5 of us most of the time but I don't get to buy cars very often so am pretty much looking for the moon on a stick. With an ev, I can see us all going in to central London occasionally to save on tube fares and take advantage of no congestion charge and cheaper parking than the diesel. I've gone back to looking at e Golfs as it seems to do it all for us.

tube fares and take advantage of no congestion charge and cheaper parking

One of the many untold issues of the EV.. ...London/all cities. Needs less vehicles within not more. I get what they are trying to do but encouraging people out of the public transport is not the right way to do it

I would never drive to central London. Parking would surely far outweigh the cost of the tube?

I would never drive to central London. Parking would surely far outweigh the cost of the tube?

For the five of us an offpeak return to Central London costs £23.13. With an EV, there is (until end 2025) no congestion charge to pay and of course no ULEZ. To park in Westminster you pay for 10 minutes and get four hours parking, so the only other cost is a 30 or so mile return trip making it far cheaper and more convenient than the tube.

I do get the congestion point and the economics will change post 2025 once EVs become subject to the congestion charge.

Thought I would add my own PHEV experience to the mix. TL;DR: If I was buying a car now I'd either go for liquefied dinosaurs or full EV, not a PHEV. I've had a VW Passat Estate PHEV as a company car for the past 2.5 years and generally like it a lot.

Three things that make it work for us right now and at the time of choosing the car - we are though in a niche and if it wasn't for MTB, wouldn't need to own a car:
1) We predominantly drive in the city and 95% our trips are easily covered within EV range, more so in summer;
2) We still mostly commute by bike in the city. Driving is mainly for weekends for kid things like swimming lessons, when we're lazy and to get to the woods for riding/walks;
3) Low ICE usage: We take longer motorway trips in the car about every 2-3 months.

Reasons why I'd go full EV or full ICE buying a car today:
1) Maturing infrastructure. There's a lot more AC and DC charging points around the places we visit + along motorways vs. 2 years ago;
2) Running costs are lower with an EV and it's fun to drive a quiet car. PHEVs come at a premium that doesn't give most people the savings of a full EV or lower ICE initial purchase.
3) Although the EV part of PHEV works well in summer, the small 13kW battery really suffers when the temps drop to 0-10 degrees. Addcarrying around an ICE + fuel tank means I see range drop from 32 to 21 miles in urban (i.e. lots of regen in start/stop) areas.

That's really helpful, thanks, and supports my conclusion that for my use case a PHEV is not the right choice.

I’m not sure anyone’s saying it’s irrelevant. Charging away from home is very expensive for starters.

I've had arguments with EV preachers about problems with charging if you don't have off street parking. Their argument is you don't have a petrol pump at your house, you just go somewhere else to charge as you do filling up.

However, it doesn’t take a couple of hours on good rapid charger. Usually talking about 45-60 mins.

On the above argument I had, I looked up public chargers near me and many were 13A 3kW only, shopping car park points especially. Many 7kW which is still not that nippy, and far less at a decent rate, and reviews said they were often out of service.

liquefied dinosaurs

In terms of greenhouse gasses anything natural gas powered is roughtly equivalent to coal. Methane is a greenhouse gas and the leaks from wells (even after they've been closed) the distribution system, pumps and vehicles are such that the CO2 from burning + the methane released through leaks is roughly equal the green house effect of burning coal.

Recent monitoring has shown about 50% of closed gas wells leak methane. The air monitoring networks in Berlin clearly show the extent of methane leaks in the city (and no doubt any other city with a gas network). The long distance pipelines are visible on methane maps as a string of hotspots.

many were 13A 3kW only, shopping car park points especially. Many 7kW which is still not that nippy,

Yeah I basically ignore anything that's not 50kW. The lower power ones are mostly only useful at a workplace or if you are lucky enough to live near one, but it's clearly not sustainable to leave your car there all the time because there is likely to be far too many cars before long.

The only useful ones I've seen were in public car parks in Pembrokeshire, if you're on holiday. Drain your battery on the trip out there, then when you go to town or the beach, plug in whilst you do your tourist stuff. You'd end up recharging over the week.

Like anything else I'd charge where there aren't going to be crowds, Molgrips. Given the number of EVs around now and the limited number of charge points you're likely to have to join a long queue at the beach. I had my first experience of queueing for more than one car in Bordeaux recently. Happily there were eight chargers so only had to wait for half an hour. Next trip to Bordeaux I planned my charge in a quieter place.

We leave ours on 7kw posts while going riding all the time, Glentress (hydro), Laggan, Aberfeldy, Comrie Croft (free and solar battery setup!), Crieff, Pitmedden etc. Most smaller towns have a few slow posts, and starting your ride from there rather than an FLS carpark means you are closer to the cafes. Really helps with not having a home charger.

Has a Zoe for year now, very happy with it, nice to drive around town etc. When we looked best value one came with full leather heated seats and a decent sound system that is all a bonus. Friends have Kia and MG EVs and are really pleased with them as well. At present ours is worth more than we paid for it, not that relevant as will have if for some years, but I've never had that with any other car I've bought.

Like anything else I’d charge where there aren’t going to be crowds, Molgrips.

I charge wherever I am when I need charging 🙂 with the example I gave there were no queues and no vehicles even being charged. And with 7kW chargers the concept of a queue makes little sense, no-one is going to sit there for 5 hours waiting for someone else to finish are they?

Drain your battery on the trip out there, then when you go to town or the beach, plug in whilst you do your tourist stuff

no-one is going to sit there for 5 hours waiting for someone else to finish are they?

I those circumqtances with a drained battery they'll wait the time it takes to get at the charger.

I sometimes think you deliberately miss my point, Molgrips. I'll repeat it: As there are more EVs and more people wanting to charge then banking on a charge at a prime location such as a beach is likely to lead to a wait in a queue. Better charge where it's quiet, I've learned not to arrive in Bordeaux low on juice but charge just before in the vinyards.

I those circumqtances with a drained battery they’ll wait the time it takes to get at the charger.

I'd think of myself as having really screwed up if I had to wait in a queue for a 7kw charger.

I sometimes think you deliberately miss my point, Molgrips

Why the hell would I do that?

I'm just trying to point out the realities of charging *in the UK* right now. I'm not interested in a fight.

Recent monitoring has shown about 50% of closed gas wells leak methane.

As much as your post is irrelevant here I'm still curious

Is there a source on it being closed wells as oppose to dormant wells that have been left to rot without proper abandonment process.(as per the original report that the mass media misquoted)

Documentary on BR Alpha, Trailrat. The North Sea was given as an example where wells that were supposed to be sealed were leaking. The bubbles rising around the cap were pretty convincing. They travelled around land wells in various western countries with a methane meter and it was showing high methane values at many. I have no reason to doubt the representive of the company featured. He commented that when he found major leaks in gas supply lines the operators were delighted to get his reports and acted immediately. Leaky old wells being reported generally didn't get any remedial action.

That's a very different set of reports then to the ones being reported in the media recently out of context.

Your talking about gas contained sub 1000m below the sea bed ie above the formation caprock.

Not *sealed* wells ... But production wells where the non target areas within the sea bed are producing around the well bore conductor casing. (It's an important distinction)

There's another set of reports referring to wells that have stopped producing naturally and the top side infrastructure has been removed but more or less been left open - they have gone on then to continue to emit methane naturally ..... And of course all of that pales into insignificance when compared to the darbeze crater gas emissions

The guy was talking about results of monitoring closed wells. A geologist will tell you that the methane could be from shallow deposits or gas from the reservoir rising along the casing. Casing leaks are common in drilling, work over and production. Some factors that cause the leaks continue after the well reches the end of its life and is cemented. Fact is monitoring shows a high proportion are leaking methane.

The guy made it clear that methane leaks are not just a historic problem, they concern recent and current well closures not just those left open years ago. That's why he argued you have to factor in the methane leaks from wells that are currently in production and projected to get a more accurate measure of the greenhouse gases emitted for a given volume of natural gas production. When all the leaks from gas field to consumer are taken into account the guy reckoned that gas is similar to coal in terms of greenhouse gases and global heating.