[Closed] New MacBook Pro's

I am desktop plus tablet

Point is you can have one device that could do both.

I think apple could easily develop one if they felt like it.

The only problem is, he doesn't have the innovation, creativity, vision or the cajones to take risks

I think removing the 3.5mm headphone jack was universally acknowledged as quite risky 😉

I too was underwhelmed by last week's Apple launch; is there really such a huge market of people wetting themselves about Emojis?!

At the same time, Microsoft launched something that looks very cool...

So to all the apple users on here - would you be interested in a Surface style tablet/laptop device, like an iPad pro but that runs MacOS instead of iOS?

Nope. It'd be as good as useless for what I do. Touchscreen is for doing your shopping, and asking your mates 'U OK HUN X? X, not actually getting stuff done.

At the same time, Microsoft launched something that looks very cool..

A load of useless 'cool' gimmickery, thats looks as good as useless at actually producing the type of work that is generally done on high end Macs.

MacOS instead of iOS

Big ipad pro big enough for me.

I read an interesting article this morning saying how Apple is basically in limbo now, waiting for iOS and tablets to fully supersede MacOS and desk/laptops, which gives MS a bit of an opportunity to muscle in.

I think the differences in operation are too fundamental to mix input style and OSs (but what do I know?)

Even tighter integration between ipad and pro laptop would be good.

That's what the keyboard's for innit. I use it in touch mode for some stuff, laptop for others.

Never realised Apple owners were so conservative 🙂

I do wonder how many artists/designers do use stylii on tablets instead of paper.

Nope. It'd be as good as useless for what I do. Touchscreen is for doing your shopping, and asking your mates 'U OK HUN X? X, not actually getting stuff done.

A load of useless 'cool' gimmickery, thats looks as good as useless at actually producing the type of work that is generally done on high end Macs.

Once you get something right, there's only so much you can do with it. See ipod.

The trick is knowing what to say 'no' to, and the vision for your next product.

Just makes me sad all over again that Uncle Steve had to go.

Never realised Apple owners were so conservative

That is (was) the exact point: you didn't need to be a cutting-edge early adopter to get the original iPhone. Even my mum could use it.

Never realised Apple owners were so conservative

We're not. Its about using the correct tools for the job. I've presently got a 17" Macbook pro on a stand with my colour palettes, tools, swatches, co-ordinates etc on, plugged into a 27" studio display with my main work on. I can't reach either of them. I've a remote keyboard and mouse sat in front of me. Go in design studios all over the world, and you'll see similar set-ups.

Where does touch screen gimmickry fit in to this?

it doesn't!

They're tools, not toys!

Where does touch screen gimmickry fit in to this?

it doesn't!

Of course, there are lots of different ways to use tech, and not everyone uses all ways.

I forgot though that whatever binners doens't like is the worst thing ever and pathetic waste of humanity's time 🙂

The trick is knowing what to say 'no' to, and the vision for your next product

Yep.

Where does touch screen gimmickry fit in to this?

it doesn't!

They're tools, not toys!

Good question? I can't see myself ever using it. Maybe its a concession to keep the children amused?

Maybe its to keep the children amused

I forgot though that whatever binners doens't like is the worst thing ever and pathetic waste of humanity's time

If you went and asked any designer - proper ones who do it for a living - what they thought of that daft Microsoft thing, you'd find yourself being fixed with the exact same look of withering contempt

what they thought of that daft Microsoft thing, you'd find yourself being fixed with the exact same look of withering contempt

it all sounds a bit like when Jobs said it was cool it was like amazing like until then it's soooo wrong like

Binners, be interesting to see if they work it into the desktop keyboards or trackpads (presumably with a big price hike!)

If you went and asked any designer - proper ones who do it for a living - what they thought of that daft Microsoft thing, you'd find yourself being fixed with the exact same look of withering contempt

So the reviews from graphic designers are fakes?

How on earth haven't mikewsmith and molgrips been pulled up for trolling? At least molgrips' posts have an element of curiosity, but I don't think I've ever seen a thread about an Apple product where Mike doesn't show up to be all contrary. As far as I can tell, he's never owned an iOS or macOS device - am I wrong? - yet seems almost frantically compelled to 'save' the world from them. Is he on a retainer from Microsoft? Seriously, man, sit the **** down. Remember: he who hunts monsters should take care not to become one himself...

So the reviews from graphic designers are fakes?

I still don't really get the touch bar thing. Who actually looks at a keyboard when working? You need to take your focus off the screen and figure out what's on the touch bar and where to press each time you want to use it.

At least molgrips' posts have an element of curiosity, but I don't think I've ever seen a thread about an Apple product where Mike doesn't show up to be all contrary.

Somehow, I doubt Molgrips and Mikewsmith have ever worked producing visual material at any sort of 'professional' level. Suggesting that 'Microsoft have won this quarter's product launch easily' is a bit of a giveaway. 😆

Having said that, I'm happily using an ancient iMac for Photoshop, Lightroom, the odd bit of Illustrator and so forth. Nowhere near 'professional' level in terms of having to produce work to deadlines really though, so I don't need ultimate power and speed. It's a bit slow relatively, but it chugs along ok. But it does slow down considerably when using multiple layers on PS, or applying batch edits in LR etc. It can be virtually unusable whilst it's processing so much data. I've considered updating it, but unless I get to a situation where I really 'need' such superior performance, I doubt I'll bother spending money whilst I still have a reasonably adequate tool for the job. I'm definitely not someone to be 'upgrading' every year or two!

But when I do, I'll be more than happy to spend several times the amount on a Mac, rather than have to use any Microsoft OS.

"I do wonder how many artists/designers do use stylii on tablets instead of paper."

I get my little Wacom tablet out now and then; for certain tasks, it's infinitely better than using a mouse.

A lot of web development software and workflows work much more smoothly on OSX, The operating system to my experience of both feels much more reliable and more easily maintained also.. I don't subscribe to their prices but the way windows has gone I'm glad I use OSX. I have a home built hackintosh for my desktop system and I've got a macbook pro for the portable.. I still hold strong that you'll struggle to find a much better laptop build than a macbook pro however the new prices are pretty damn steep and I don't see myself jumping onto one anytime soon... just as well the 3 year old one is still powerful enough for web development and has an excellent battery life!

Somehow, I doubt Molgrips and Mikewsmith have ever worked producing visual material at any sort of 'professional' level. Suggesting that 'Microsoft have won this quarter's product launch easily' is a bit of a giveaway.

A lot of web development software and workflows work much more smoothly on OSX,

I didn't set out to troll - I was seriously thinking about what possible new stuff Apple could use, and if there might be interest among the user base. But then binners backed in his tanker full of scorn to pour over everything and I got slightly riled up, but only slightly 🙂

Apparently some designers and artists do use these things - how many, who knows?

Somehow, I doubt Molgrips and Mikewsmith have ever worked producing visual material at any sort of 'professional' level.

Oh absoutely, hence questions rather than pronouncements. I can't even draw. Although funnily enough the Surface helps me practice because I can rub stuff out indefinitely which is pretty handy.

Suggesting that 'Microsoft have won this quarter's product launch easily' is a bit of a giveaway

I meant in terms of innovation and new product-ness. It remains to be seen how many artists will want to use the Studio as a drawing board, but as hardware it's pretty damn cool.

I doubt it from our end or any of my developer colleagues on osx. Dave Rupert from Shoptalkshow did a migration to a microsoft laptop and it sounded pretty hellish and there are simple fundamentals that even with workarounds just don't flow as well. Obviously it depends on your specific environments that you need but I don't see myself going anywhere near microsoft again and thats not because I'm a mac fanboy.. I'm a fan of things that allow me to work well.

OSX on tonymac is the way forwards for a desktop. 0 hassles and costs bugger all. Apple laptops are still better built than Dell's, very portable, hardwearing and excellent battery life / resell value.

Problem is like has been mentioned there are a lot of people watching youtube videos spouting what laptop is best when realistically it doesn't matter to them.. just fanboyism

Apparently some designers and artists do use these things - how many, who knows?

I've never see one. I doubt I ever will. I've worked in commercial studios all over the country, and you never ever see a PC, or anythign microsoft based.

There are several very good reasons for this. And that daft thing isn't going to change that.

The premise for this thread is that Macs are expensive. I'd say that for an incredibley effective (in fact, the best) tool that you use all day, every day, and will do for the next 5 years, to generate an income, they're cheap as chips.

Like I said, they're tools, not toys

That answer your question (ina suitably scornful manner)? 😛

"absolutly bit apples growth from niche geekery to slightly bigger has been in the consumer market convincing people to buy high spec laptops for a serious amount of cash to look at cat videos on facebook... "

It's a successful brand, and they've tapped into the fact people want to be associated with 'cool' brands, hence all the iPads/iPods/iPhones and all the other 'toys' with an Apple logo on them. Revenue from that stuff helps Apple invest in designing and producing ever better computers for people to use. Yes, you can buy a similarly specced PC for half the price or whatever, but it can't run OSX. As someone who wants to use a computer for creative purposes, I love OSX because I don't need to be a geek in order to get the most out of it. I just can't get on with anything with Windows on it.

I think the main reason you see so many Apple Macs in 'design studios' etc, is because the OS lets users concentrate on just doing what they want to, without having to get all techy with different drivers, a far less intuitive GUI (which is heavily derived from Apple's anyway, just never able to be as good because Apple own all the crucial patents), and al the other associated messing about that seems to be necessary with PCs. Macs are just far less fuss and faff than PCs. Apple thought about how most people actually want to use computers, and designed it all around that. And that's why they are so popular.

"Like I said, they're tools, not toys"

They are toys for most people who own them though. As for having to have the Apple logo for cafe purposes, yes, there's a massive 'fashion accessory' aspect to Macs. I know folk who'd be perfectly well served with a cheap PC laptop, but they'll happily spend 4x as much on a Mac which is far more than they need, just to have that brand prestige. But then, some folk will gladly spend thousands on a bicycle they'll only ride gently on at weekends. Or on a ghastly shopping trolley with a Porsche badge on it. 😉

FWIW, this is rather interesting, valuable to hear the thinking that goes into the new tech.

https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/jony-ive-talks-about-putting-the-apple-touch-on-the-macbook-pro/

Clodhopper you should google "tonymac"

is because the OS lets users concentrate on just doing what they want to, without having to get all techy

That's in the past now. Things are very much better than they were with W7. And besides, employees shoudn't have to bother with drivers anyway - company IT shoudl do it.

I'm a fan of things that allow me to work well.

Curious as to why MacOS is better for web development?

That's in the past now.

Is it? How have you found W10 compares to macOS Sierra? What if I don't have company IT?

Probably because Webkit based browser compatibility was better than practically everything else (ie Safari, Chrome, Chromium)?
Develop under webkit, show that it's still fine in Firefox (but that might be webkit too now?), then implement workarounds to hack IE.

That's in the past now.

Thats as maybe. Its a bit late in the day to finally get it sorted now.

"I know our product has been shite for decades, and theres something else readily available that does it miles better, but we've got it all sorted this time. Honest. Would you like to buy one of these great big daft, shiny, whizzy, gimmiky touch screen things, to replace the totally dependable piece of kit you've been using for 20 odd years, and your entire industry is built around?"

"Erm... no thanks mate. I think I'll stick with this"

I've not had to do anything techie with a modern supported W10 machine. And comparing like with like would be comparing a MS machine with an Apple one. And you don't have to do anything with those, they come prebuild with all their drivers and no spyware, just like apple ones (presumably) do.

Not sure your point binners? Because a company used to be shite, you shoudln't buy it even when it's not?

May I remind you that MacOS also used to be shite before OS X, when it didn't even have protected memory spaces and you had to turn off virtual memory to get it to play videos (as I did on my mate's Mac circa 1995 or so) ?

Things are very much better than they were with W7. And besides, employees shoudn't have to bother with drivers anyway - [b]company IT[/b] should do it.

and home users ? 😉 as I have posted before saying we used to be cr@p but are great now isn't a strong advertisement. In particular when we were told W7 was great at the time

Back to the iPad / Surface thing ... I like/need a large screen for document glcreation and sited fairly far from my eyes with keyboard near. This allows me to work without my reading glasses. iPad is a perfect size / weight for handheld use. I am glad Alple cinally started mKing bigger phoens - I'd get a plus size next time. Just steeling myself for paying £1000 which is what I remember being iMac money 😐

With a screen barely larger than that on my digital watch 😉

Not sure your point binners? Because a company used to be shite, you shoudln't buy it even when it's not?

That Microsoft surface thing looks shite too. It might float your techie boat, but it does nowt for me. I can see lots of solutions to problems that don't exist, and gimmicks, and I can't see it being a patch on what I've presently got sat in front of me.

And I'm their target market.

Are you getting your head round the basic problem yet Mols?

as I have posted before saying we used to be cr@p but are great now isn't a strong advertisement.

It's also a very silly point of view.

That Microsoft surface thing looks shite too. It might float your techie boat, but it does nowt for me. And I'm there target market.

Are you getting your head round the basic problem yet Mols?

Binners.

I fully understand that you don't want one. I don't care what you use. I've always said that Apple and Microsoft have pros and cons and that they are both good.

I would like you to get your head around something, which is that just because it's not right for YOU doens't mean it's intrinsically shite.

looks shite too

I would like you to get your head around something, which is that just because it's not right for YOU doens't mean it's intrinsically shite.

You do understand what a 'target market' is, right?

I'm sure its just coincidence that its an opinion shared by the entire industry I work in, with the exception of a couple of weirdo's who are just trying too hard to be different

You're right. its baseless prdjudice. its almost like racism, innit? 😛

And I'm their target market.

Therein lies the crux. I don't think you've been Apple's target market for some time.

I always thought that Adobe Photoshop and QuarkXpress were the main reason creative types bought Macs in the old days.

I think Apple are at interesting point in time, and the discussion of Cook being Ballmer seems a good comparison. MS have just released some of their best and most interesting products in years that 'do 'just work' and Apple are slightly struggling to innovate and feel a bit gimmicky. What will be interesting to watch is that Apple were starting to get some traction in Enterprise, but with the current price increases I expect that to fall. Was told recently by an IT manager of a major energy company that there was no way in future employees would get iphones and ipads, it would be Andorid or MS.

But end of the day we need both companies to push each other, otherwise we'll end up with the IE6 debacle again.

It's also a very silly point of view.

Tell that to someone who works in branding / brand development.

Look at Microsoft's foray into mobile phones, no one GAS. Office is their lifeline, as/when that goes they have little to offer. For many years Apple's focus of combined hardware and software looked miguided as Microsoft focused purely on the OS platform and Office but now the reverse is true

You're right. its baseless prdjudice. its almost like racism, innit?

Alright.

Just because it's not right for your industry doesn't mean it's intrinsically shite. Cos not everyone's a graphic designer, are they?

Tell that to someone who works in branding / brand development.

It's not uncommon for the majority to hold silly beliefs. Even if it's a small majority like say 52%.

Was told recently by an IT manager of a major energy company that there was no way in future employees would get iphones and ipads, it would be Android

My old company allowed us to use our personal iPads for access to email etc so the realty was I gave back my work laptop and paid for my own hardware ! Applications like iAnnotate which allowed me to mark up PDF's and Word files using the touch screen was revolutionary

Apple were starting to get some traction in Enterprise, but with the current price increases I expect that to fall.

This is an interesting move for sure.

Some companies were given big discounts, I believe. It will be interesting to see if they can continue to do that.

FFS even if they sell them to enterprises at cost or a slight loss it would be a devastating attack on MS.

Applications like iAnnotate which allowed me to mark up PDF's and Word files using the touch screen was revolutionary

That's the main reason we got Surfaces in this house.. and you said you didn't care for them..?

Molgrips 🙂 touché

Sorry Molls....

[img] [/img]

😉

clodhopper - Member

I think the main reason you see so many Apple Macs in 'design studios' etc, is because the OS lets users concentrate on just doing what they want to, without having to get all techy with different drivers, a far less intuitive GUI (which is heavily derived from Apple's anyway, just never able to be as good because Apple own all the crucial patents), and al the other associated messing about that seems to be necessary with PCs. Macs are just far less fuss and faff than PCs. Apple thought about how most people actually want to use computers, and designed it all around that. And that's why they are so popular.

Just a general question, but this quote summed up the point of the question, hence why I've used it...

Why is it that the graphics/video/photography/music(?) industry seem to be the only ones that require the intuitiveness, ease of use, lack of faff etc. that the Apple products supposedly bring to the table?
There must be tons of industries/jobs/careers out there where 'just getting on with the job' and 'using a tool' etc is paramount for efficiency etc. but it only seems to be 'the creative' industries that have cottoned on to the advantages of Apple stuff.

For example, I work as a mechanical design engineer. Most of my day is spent twiddling 3D models around in a modelling package, then creating drawings for those parts/assemblies.
Sounds like the sort of thing that would suit Apple stuff down to the ground, but as far as I know Windows & PCs rule the roost. Why is this?
Is it because no one has made their software (Creo, Solidworks, Catia etc) available for the Apple platform? And why not? If it would be such a benefit to the end user?
My time is very valuable to the company I work for, so if an Apple computing solution allowed me to do my job with less faff why hasn't someone jumped in & sorted it?
Same for all sorts of computer based jobs & industries I would have thought.....

Another thing I don't quite get is that once I am using the piece of software to do my job (Pro/E in this case), the operating system is largely irrelevant. Sure, I save files & navigate to folders etc. but that's pretty well sorted in Windows. I don't need to dick around with 'the OS' that much; I just use the software.
Is this not how it is with graphic design work, for example? Do you not open the software on your Apple device & then just use that? What influence does the operating system have on that particular bit of software? Is it not just running on top of the operating system, so you don't really have to deal with the operating system; you just work within the bounds of that piece of software??

Excuse my use of phrases like 'Apple device' etc. I am not familiar with them at all, so wouldn't like to use specific model names etc. as I'd probably get it wrong......

It's tradition, innit.

AFAIK, a long time ago Apple computers came with much better graphics capabilities, so designers, artists and photographers used them and software companies wrote graphical software for them. However PC capability caught up (I'm talking 20-25 years ago here), but it still took a good while longer for software companies to produce equal quality software on PC, so people's habits stuck because of course people don't want to have to re-skill on some new platform.

Why is it that the graphics/video/photography/music(?) industry seem to be the only ones that require the intuitiveness, ease of use, lack of faff etc. that the Apple products supposedly bring to the table?

I think this quote from molgrips hits it -

And besides, employees shoudn't have to bother with drivers anyway - company IT shoudl do it.

Most 'creatives' are either self-employed or working in small companies of about 3 people. None of whom are techies. So you can't phone company IT, it needs to be easy to set up and run a small network or plug in some new hardware, etc. One day's downtime could cost you the price difference between a Mac and a PC.

PC's are way better now but I spent an extra £300 in 2007 going for a Mac over a PC, and it paid for itself many times over in terms of potentially productive time no longer being wasted by poor IT (windows!).

Why is it that the graphics/video/photography/music(?) industry seem to be the only ones that require the intuitiveness, ease of use, lack of faff etc. that the Apple products supposedly bring to the table?Why is it that the graphics/video/photography/music(?) industry seem to be the only ones that require the intuitiveness, ease of use, lack of faff etc. that the Apple products supposedly bring to the table?

historically there were colour issues that meant monitor and printer profiles were better implemented on the mac plus a lot of imaging software was written for the mac first then PC later (if at all) i remember digital back software was mac only plus tethering was firewire 800/400 only, at the time PC’s if they had firewire did not have the voltage or pins enabled to supply power to to the back. obviously it was the other way too with a lot of areas only covered by PC’s.

now it’s mostly just an entrenched ecosystem and current users would kick up a fuss if the bean counters in accounts said you must use this POS HP to work on. especially if like me the only dealings you have with P.C’s are frustrating phone calls with ageing parents trying to get their £250 pc laptop working or having the misfortune to try using one to work on in the distant past.

not everyone wants to be an I.T geek in their spare time. every time somebody mentions ‘you should try Linux’ i immediately think badly dressed single male with sociopathic tendencies who really ought to get out more.

Even I don't recommend Linux.

AFAIK, a long time ago Apple computers came with much better graphics capabilities, so designers, artists and photographers used them and software companies wrote graphical software for them. However PC capability caught up (I'm talking 20-25 years ago here), but it still took a good while longer for software companies to produce equal quality software on PC, so people's habits stuck because of course people don't want to have to re-skill on some new platform.

It was also a hardware issue. For a long time FireWire was a standard interface for pro Audio soundcards. But I'm not sure I ever saw a PC laptop with a FireWire port. Which was just another nudge towards Apple stuff...

as Doris said above. any savings to made by buying a p.c. and not paying the ‘apple tax’ are irrelevant because the difference would be paid for in a days work, over the 3 years working life of a computer the cost is immaterial. it would actually cost a lot more to buy and use a cheaper PC.

there are other workflow reasons too.

this obviously has nothing to do with the vanity purchasing by wannabe creatives who like to sit in cafes nursing a flat white.

We all have our own experience of "it just works". For me, Google Drive is the best solution to the problem of creating, sharing, collaborating on and filing the kind of files I work with (spreadsheets, docs, presentations etc). Apple have only recently got into this "collaboration" game, but you can only collaborate with others in their walled garden. Google Drive is OS and device-agnostic and "just works".

I buy Apple stuff because it is lovely hardware that is a pleasure (mostly) to use and I accept I pay a premium for that. They're not (in my opinion and experience) great at services and they're not great at software, making iterative "improvements" that often take away as much as they give as well as playing catch up. The changes made in Cook's tenure certainly point to having a more open system for other developers to get into the Apple (hardware and OS) infrastructure and I suspect they have their eye on the recurring revenue from the APIs those 3rd parties use. Wasn't there some Microsoft software used in a recent demo?

I've got some ideas where Apple might be going, but I'm not filled with confidence they'll get there.

(which is heavily derived from Apple's anyway, just never able to be as good because Apple own all the crucial patents)

Well, that is partly not true. Microsoft can use ANY Apple technology covered by an Apple patent without fear of suing, as they have a legal agreement to that effect. While, officially, this is not directly related to them bailing Apple out back when the shit properly hit the fan, you could say that it might be, tangentially.

If you want a clear hardware example… check out the magnetic power coupling on the Surface.

The OS/HUI examples are too numerous to pick just one. They are endless.

now it’s mostly just an entrenched ecosystem and current users would kick up a fuss if the bean counters in accounts said you must use this POS HP to work on. especially if like me the only dealings you have with P.C’s are frustrating phone calls with ageing…

Partly true. Any bean counters worth their salt will look at cost of ownership over at least a three year period, including support costs, which tend to favour Macs. If only looking at 12 months, then pushing for PCs make sense, unless, as you said, you're fitting in with an existing ecosystem with software contracts and licences already in place, in which case leave well alone!

cost of ownership

I heard something interesting on a podcast about this. If people bought product (like electronics and white goods) on (cheaper) cost of ownership rather than cheaper ticket price it would of course mean fewer devices and appliances being made. The CO2 saving as a result of less manufacturing would be equivalent to taking half a million cars off the road across Europe.

The facts may not *quite* be remembered right but they demonstrate the point.

as Doris said above. any savings to made by buying a p.c. and not paying the ‘apple tax’ are irrelevant because the difference would be paid for in a days work, over the 3 years working life of a computer the cost is immaterial. it would actually cost a lot more to buy and use a cheaper PC.

Exactly my point. As a tool for generating income as a designer, a high end Mac is like a Snap On toolbox for a mechanic. Just the best you can buy. If its your income and your livelihood, then for the sake of a relatively minor price difference (spread over the life of the equipment, its inconsequential) then why would you even entertain buying something that was known to be far inferior for the task in hand? For instance the colour calibration on an Apple screen is far better than on a PC. And stuff like that really matters on a daily basis.

Cost of hardware becomes even less relevant an issue when probably the first thing you'll do with a Mac, as soon as you've turned the thing on, is whack thousands of pounds worth of software on it. Its not like you're just installing a copy of Office so you can do some spreadsheets, and answer your emails.

And for my job, I didn't choose a Mac cos it wasn't powerful enough. But I don't go round excoriating them and mocking those who use them...

Well not much, anyway 🙂

Cost of hardware becomes even less relevant an issue when probably the first thing you'll do with a Mac, as soon as you've turned the thing on, is whack thousands of pounds worth of software on it. Its not like you're just installing a copy of Office so you can do some spreadsheets, and answer your emails.

Cost of hardware becomes even less relevant an issue when probably the first thing you'll do with a Mac, as soon as you've turned the thing on, is whack thousands of pounds worth of software on it. Its not like you're just installing a copy of Office so you can do some spreadsheets, and answer your emails.

For an awful lot of people, it will be just that. Office, emails, web browsing etc.

I'd love to see a breakdown of Apples hardware sales by demographic. How many MBs (the whole range) are sold to students, coffee shop hipsters and business people where web access and office are king. And how many are sold to developers, creative industry types. Would be fascinating I think as the new MBP seem to be targeting that 1st group. Prosumers, wannabe video editors, lifestyle types. Nothing wrong with that, but its a far cry from industry pros.

Why is it that the graphics/video/photography/music(?) industry seem to be the only ones that require the intuitiveness, ease of use, lack of faff etc. that the Apple products supposedly bring to the table?

Compared to most common pieces of software, things like Photoshop, Final Cut, After Effects etc are insanely complicated and simplicity and usability do play a part. But that's really just scratching the surface. Initially you just couldn't the most common industry standard art packages. Photoshop, final cut, illustrator, freehand, dreamweaver, splash were all mac only....and then when they were finally available on PC the first few versions were buggy crashy shit. And around that same period of time iirc macs generally had a slight edge in power, or maybe more ram. That all changed very very quickly though and soon considerably cheaper PCs had more power and their software was good. But the damage was done and pros dismissed PC versions as bug ridden and crash prone.

Most 'creatives' are either self-employed or working in small companies of about 3 people. None of whom are techies. So you can't phone company IT, it needs to be easy to set up and run a small network or plug in some new hardware, etc. One day's downtime could cost you the price difference between a Mac and a PC.

There's a grain of truth to that too but just a grain. Back in the early days of digital cameras and video cameras macs were generally much more simplistic in terms of plug and play, also most high end kit involved in either photo capture, video capture, external storage or printing was biased to work with mac, or poorly supported by pc so you had to be more computer literate to do the same work with pc.

Most of the creatives I knew either freelancers or small companies were/are extremely computer literate. However, there was a lot of push back from the "pros" who were pre-installed in their comfy jobs, whether that was "mac operator" at a printing press or editor at a production company or graphic designer for a small company.

Myself and all my friends from art college who went on to work in design related industries might have had preferences but we were able to rip apart and rebuild both platforms, but I would frequently come across editors who would proudly boast they wouldn't know how to turn on a PC. Or who could barely turn on a mac.

When we got into 3D there was no choice. Mac performance was laughable, and to spec a mac that would even compete with a high end Boxx workstation would be double the price. And ironically the mac versions of the leading 3d packages were bug ridden crashy pieces of shit. So we had to use PC. Also if they failed in some way any number of local shops would carry replacement parts and we could rebuild them ourselves or upgrade as required. It was only when the first few generations of intel macs came in that macs started to regain ground for really high end creative software like zbrush, maya, lightwave etc.

Now we're at a point where there's little to no difference other than cost and aesthetics.

PC's are still not 'reliable'. the company I work for employs one of the usual big IT companies to provide and support our IT. We have the usual PC laptops rolled out. They are not reliable despite the support from the IT company. We keep our IT helpline busy. Ironically our visual comms team have a special dispensation to use iMacs, which are a good 5 years old now. They are supported by our IT company and connected to our network. They're fine, no issues whatsoever.

Wobbliscott, I wonder if that says more about the users behaviours than the systems themselves 😉

Wobbliscott, I wonder if that says more about the users behaviours than the systems themselves

Or the IT support company needing 'unreliable' computers to keep themselves in a job

I can't get my head around the usefulness of the touch bar, or otherwise. My laptop is used as a secondary display for toolbox/palettes and so on, to a larger display, and I use a separate keyboard and mouse/trackpad otherwise I'd be typing with my body twisted to one side. I cant see when I'd ever use it...

I'd be happy if Apple just produced a wireless keyboard with a numeric pad, or a wired one which worked... it's not the end of the world, I've got no problem with the Logitech one I'm using, I just can't understand why Apple have never addressed the basics of fixing their USB keyboard or releasing a wireless one with a numeric pad.

Part of the issue is that by saving all that money on PCs you might just be buying cheaper hardware in the first place. One of the advantages of the PC model is that you CAN produce and buy a £200 laptop that can do most things, but that doesn't mean everyone should of course. I wonder what the price premium is JUST on the OS? So like for like hardware and build quality?

So anyway, here's another thing regarding corporate uptake:

I went to a client a year or so ago who were completely MS. They had all the office productivity suite, and it was very impressive. Sharepoint, Lync, Office, the whole lot. We walked into a meeting room with a big projector and the documents were all up on the screen and shared in the virtual meeting with all the remote participants and it all worked instantly and perfectly. I was very impressed. Presumably Windows is tied into all this Office productivity suite - or is it available and as good on Mac?

Sharepoint

Which leads my train of thought onto...

What I've seen over the years - and is perhaps the big change in IT - is that it can be rolled out much more easily if the requirements are relatively basic, especially if provided as SaaS via a browser. Sharepoint is (not) a great example of this. It's a toolkit that, in the right hands, can build a great infrastructure for document creation, sharing, collaboration etc. However it's an infrastructure that is still needs "building" to get even the most basic of those requirements working as well as something out-of-the-box like Google Drive and Google Docs. I've worked at businesses that really struggle to get people to adopt Sharepoint because people want to use the tools that make their life easier, not harder.

Which comes back to the point some have made above, which is that for many small businesses, hardware and software is available that doesn't need extensive IT skills to deploy and support. Apple cottoned on to that benefit long before anyone else.

molgrips. We get all that with Google docs and Hangouts in our hetrogeneous company that has a mix of Windows/Linux/Macs.

It's hilarious that you quote Lync which is the worst most expensive pile of utter crap ever to grace a computer

Admittedly I don't know much about Sharepoint itself or Lync not being a user. But the impression I got in general was that a fully integrated Office/tech suite from a single provider (MS in this case) could work very well - in principle at least.

And Apple do not have anything like this offering AFAIK - or do they?

Which would make it Apple for very small businesses, and MS for bigger ones.

It's hilarious that you quote Lync which is the worst most expensive pile of utter crap ever to grace a computer

As there are a lot of Mac users on this thread I would like to ask a question. Do you spend most of your time in the Mac native OS or do you use a Windows "emulator" such as Parallels or VMware Fusion?

If you do use these how well do they work?

I work for a Cisco partner and know many people who work for Cisco. They have a scheme where they can choose their PC and the majority (70%+) seem to go for Macs with those choosing PCs seeming to be the mavericks. A lot of them seem to run Windows on their Macs hence my question above.

I use VMWare Workstation which is the PC equivalent of Fusion.

It's not an emulator - it's a virtual machine running inside your Mac, which runs Windows natively. So apart from it being slightly slower and taking up a bit more battery time, you can't tell.

I went to a client a year or so ago who were completely MS. They had all the office productivity suite, and it was very impressive. Sharepoint, Lync, Office, the whole lot. We walked into a meeting room with a big projector and the documents were all up on the screen and shared in the virtual meeting with all the remote participants and it all worked instantly and perfectly.

[b]WOW![/b] Sounds, like.... [b]TOTES[/b] amazeballs dude!

*Goes back to colouring things in*

So apart from it being slightly slower and taking up a bit more battery time, you can't tell.

I use Fusion, it slows my Mac significantly and the VM is slow. I inherited a Mac a few months ago and gave up my Windows laptop for a bit. I will go back to Windows at some point at it is better and far more integrated with almost everything useful!

I went to a client a year or so ago who were completely MS. They had all the office productivity suite, and it was very impressive. Sharepoint, Lync, Office, the whole lot. We walked into a meeting room with a big projector and the documents were all up on the screen and shared in the virtual meeting with all the remote participants and it all worked instantly and perfectly. I was very impressed. Presumably Windows is tied into all this Office productivity suite - or is it available and as good on Mac?

To answer you question Molly, no. The O365 offering is still work in progress but is getting there.

It's a toolkit that, in the right hands, can build a great infrastructure for document creation, sharing, collaboration etc. However it's an infrastructure that is still needs "building" to get even the most basic of those requirements working as well as something out-of-the-box like Google Drive and Google Docs. I've worked at businesses that really struggle to get people to adopt Sharepoint because people want to use the tools that make their life easier, not harder.

Not quite, Sharepoint is a relatively easy tool to put in place. It offers collaboration which Apple has really struggled with. I am using a Mac but I am pretty agnostic about what device/operating platform I use each day. I manage on the Mac but there is no getting away from the fact it continues to feel "niche" and each time I want to share or collaborate it throws up small challenges.
Google Drive, OneDrive, Dropbox etc dont offer a manageable solution to Cloud based file sharing. Sharepoint solves this problem cheaply and with a minimum amount of development.

I use Fusion, it slows my Mac significantly and the VM is slow