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Emily Thornberry should be the next Labour Leader.
She's ideal given the strategy over the weekend of blaming the working class voters - there is *nobody* better at blaming the working class for stuff than Lady Nugee.
Agree and I’d go further – a previous director of public proscutions he’s *exactly* the kind of calm sane competent adminstrator I want to vote for.
Nobody’s going to out-caricature Boris, but Starmer can visibly out-competent him.
The only problem is there’s clearly going to be more than one non-momentum candidate splitting the vote so I really don’t see how they can beat RLB. Unless the non-momentum people intend to drop out later in the process when front runner is identified.
Sad but true, sad because at a national level you need a non-Momentum, well Centric Leader. There is no UKIP for Socalists, but there is a Lib Deb, Plaid, SNP even thr Tories if you're centric. No they will still vote Labour (Brexit concluded) whether they're lead by the reincarnated corpse of Leon Trotsky or modern day, dare I say it, Blair. They can't even defect to the BSP because they're Marxists and subtleties matter if you an Ideologist.
Starmer can visibly out-competent him
Only if his campaign can capitalise on that.
Starmer can visibly out-competent him
Only if his campaign can capitalise on that.
He'll have half a decade to hone it.
You don't need to be competent, you just need a very simple message that the voters firstly think they understand and secondly is something they think they want, a "get Brexit done" if you will. What that slogan will be in 5 years time who knows but that will matter more than the leader.
He’ll have half a decade to hone it.
Nice to hear some unashamedly wild optimism in these troubled times.
Seriously he'll be up there with Atlee if he turns this round in one term. I feel like that's why more of a political operator is needed in the here and now - deep structural divisions with labour that need a total rebuild job.
Could be wrong - maybe we do need to put an electable person out there day one to get stuck into Johnson and that should be the emphasis. Perhaps Starmer can do both - it's just not going to mean much him making Johnson look stupid in the House, if he's still got a clown circus on his hands with the party apparatus.
Of the current lot with their hand up I'll be voting Starmer. & if I was betting I'd bet on him.
He managed to do his job over the last couple of years, including numerous interviews without slagging off Corbyn which is a massive plus afaic.
Hopefully Blair doesn't endorse him lol
I think RLB as leader an either/or Rayner/Burgon as deputy would be the dream team. For the tories. Please let's have someone who can at least think on their feet and not be an utter brain dead moron - I'm talking about you Burgon after yet another car crash interview on Politics Live at lunchtime.
Burgon as deputy
I saw that interview. The man needs some self awareness.
I can't see Starmer doing well in next election, he is too dull, too annoying, and a Sir.
How about Lammy? seen that he is 'considering' - he's popular, at least in my info bubble. Too ranty and london?
The leader is part of it, the big problem is a winning strategy. Blair was about today (sorry) and made a good/smug/annoying point. It is no good looking to the past for a strategy - look to the future and get the message simple.
(disclaimer)not a member and don't plan to be, and unless I move I'll be voting LD again next time as labour are nowhere here(/disclaimer)
Lammy is the one I’d most like to see as PM… but the country would never get behind him… he’d have no chance at an election. It would be a big risk picking him to lead the party. UK… prove me wrong, please.
I wondered why I hadn't seen David Lammy mentioned - interested to know why you think not, kelvin ?
He spoke really, really well about several things during the year, but maybe too contentious for some?
I can’t see Starmer doing well in next election,
Whoever is leader won’t do well at the next election. The swing needed is too great and any adverse Brexit fallout won’t be felt by then to harm the Tories.
They were talking about Blair’s comments on the radio tonight- mentioned that he was the only Labour election winner in the last 45 years. In that time Thatcher, Major, Cameron, May & Johnson have won for the Tories.
Depressing.
Burgon as deputy
#Burgon4Larder
#Burgon4Larder
You can talk...
🤣
I wondered why I hadn’t seen David Lammy mentioned – interested to know why you think not,
Putting it bluntly, he is black
Whoever is leader won’t do well at the next election. The swing needed is too great and any adverse Brexit fallout won’t be felt by then to harm the Tories.
I think the effects of Brexit combined with more extreme tory policy will definitely start being felt within 5 years and it will also be obvious that Brexit was a sham and being in the EU was not the cause of peoples problems
The Labour leader needs to put all that together into very easily understood messages
I follow David Lammy on Twitter and generally like him. I then heard him standing in for James O'Brien on LBC and he came across as really badly I thought so for that reason, I'm out. Starmer as leader with Nandy or Cooper as deputy would work for me but not for Momentum so probably won't happen.
Brexit combined with more extreme tory policy will definitely start being felt within 5 years
But we’ve had Universal Credit, PIP, food banks, rising homeless already and they romped home. Most people appear to now have an “I’m alright Jack” attitude.
Any new labour leader will need plenty of time to get the party in shape and I doubt it can be done in 5 years.
Doubt Thornberry will appeal. If they’ve lost support in traditional areas then the person that tweeted a picture of a house with England flags and a white van isn’t the person they need.
But we’ve had Universal Credit, PIP, food banks, rising homeless already and they romped home. Most people appear to now have an “I’m alright Jack” attitude.
I am not so sure. I think fundamentally Labour lost as people saw Corbyn was incompetant and the Labour manifesto ridiculous. I actually think these were bigger factors than brexit.
Of all the current contenders Yvette Cooper seems to be the brightest and most able to handle herself articulately in interviews. She is also much more experienced than the other contenders. I would like to see her and Jess Phillips as her deputy as a potential future leader.
Im not sure about Starmer at the moment
RLB is another momentum candidate and utterly dull so a disaster waiting to happen. Nandy and Rayner are still too inexperienced. Thornberry got a lot of airtime before the elction was called but seemed to really struggle with difficult questions in interviews.
YC acting like a petulant child after first leadership election will surely count against her.
ET will get a shock when nobody votes for her!
I think this is a pretty fair summary:
I'm not sure it's fair to blame Labour's weakness as an opposition for the way the Tory party has veered rightwards mind. They did that to themselves with Brexit, though I guess if Labour had made the prospect of cooperation and compromise more viable in the first place, there's a possibility that the whole May red-lines thing mght never have happened, but that's a stretch really given our confrontational political biospehere.
Labour need to accept that most people in the country are mean, venal, selfish and spiteful. As well as generally disinterested in politics.
So electing a leader with "policies" and who is "articulate" is not going to work (Lammy or Starmer) - it's playing the game they wish they were playing instead of the one they're actually in.
Accept reality, choose a leader who can say/do what needs to be done to win an election and get power.
Once they are in, they can enact whatever policies they want. But currently they are prioritising virtue over power and that doesn't actually let you make any changes.
Not a nice thing to accept, but the winners are using that playbook and it's working well.
Accept reality, choose a leader who can say/do what needs to be done to win an election and get power.
Once they are in, they can enact whatever policies they want. But currently they are prioritising virtue over power and that doesn’t actually let you make any changes.
Not a nice thing to accept, but the winners are using that playbook and it’s working well.
My thoughts exactly. Getting into power and then having people complain that what you are pushing through was not in the manifesto is just a price to pay. 99% of people won't have read the manifesto and around 50% probably don't even know what a manifesto is.
Labour need to accept that most people in the country are mean, venal, selfish and spiteful. As well as generally disinterested in politics.
Yeah - there's also a whole bunch of home-counties 'moderate' Tories that paint themselves as England loving Christians.
Usually your in-laws.
Not quite sure how they square that.
I think we have a disparity between people who have lots of stuff/money/assets but deal with their selfish ego by donating to charity - that's enough in their eyes. We don't want the Government doing it by consensus and redistribution. And others like myself who don't have loads (more than enough though) but would like to see re-distribution of some kind, that's where the Neoliberal block takes affect - we are then on the back foot already.
Somehow the working class have been hijacked via aspiration into the former category. That's the illusion of our times.
Knives are already out for Starmer ... Bastards.
Hopefully Blair doesn’t endorse him lol
This.
Every time that prick opens his mouth its another two steps backwards for Labour. Other than a few fanbois on here folk despise him. If that's the face of Labour you want then just be honest with yourselves and change to Libs.
As for Corbyn, folk didn't vote for him for a variety of reasons but one of the (emotionally) stronger ones I heard was the IRA connection. But yeah, the problem was Corbyn, they need to find someone without that sort of baggage.
And momentum, give it a rest. Someone said a few pages back they account for ~20% of the membership so explain why Corbyn won with such a landslide. Twice. A lot of folk (myself included) get a union vote so aren't paid up members which puts the paid up zealot assertion into question.
Finally, this is bigger than the leader. The whole party needs a serious overhaul if they are ever going to have credibility in Scotland. Either they have the hands of Westminster up their arses because they can't speak for themselves and or making stuff up on the fly and voting down their own (national) policies! The reason they do so badly up here isn't because the SNP are awesome, it's because they are lightweight to the point of buoyant and couldn't run a bath without adult supervision.
As for Corbyn, folk didn’t vote for him for a variety of reasons but one of the (emotionally) stronger ones I heard was the IRA connection. But yeah, the problem was Corbyn, they need to find someone without that sort of baggage.
They will find the baggage.
It doesn't need to be accurate remember.
As for momentum, give it a rest. Someone said a few pages back they account for ~20% of the membership so explain why Corbyn won with such a landslide. Twice. A lot of folk (myself included) get a union vote so aren’t paid up members which puts the paid up zealot assertion into question.
I'm not entirely comfortable with that - Momentum have been demonised as much as Corbyn to the point that you would think Laura Parker was some sort of strap-herself-to-a-missile type. She's one of the best speakers out there.
Strategically they screwed up but Momentum are largely a force for good. Their battle plan is fractured though. And their will be people that think they are a militant set of terrorists/6thformers (Delete as applicable) but they are a positive grass roots organisation.
Every time that prick opens his mouth
That "prick" won 3 elections. Its foolish not to listen to what Blair, Campbell and Mandelson have to say. Some of it might be guff, but a lot makes sense however untrendy it is.
That “prick” won 3 elections.
He was also directly responsible for the deaths of nearly a million people. Which is more important? He lost the right to be listened to in 2003, and the subsequent 16 years where he's completely failed to show any contrition or acceptance of his role in it. In fact every time he opens his mouth all he does is stir up the dark memories of Iraq again. His narcissism is a uniquely negative force on the labour party, far more than any other one person or group involved in it today. The best thing he could do is silently disappear.
Anyway, Starmer worked on McLibel. One of my mates was very active in that at the time, and I spent many a weekend handing out the offending leaflets on high streets. The more I learn about him, the more I like.
I think a lot of MPs/Momentum will make the mistake of thinking that someone with the same policies as JC will win the leadership election and be very popular with current Labour Voters. I don't think that is true. I certainly don't feel the same way about Angela Rayner when listening to her debate as I did Corbyn when first hearing him in 2015.
I haven't heard enough of Rebecca Long-Bailey to form an opinion yet, but I'm glad we haven't heard from Gardiner, Burgon and some of the other 'loyal' ones.
So far, I'd much prefer Kier Starmer.
Burgon said he’s standing for deputy leader Alex. Probably based on the “success” of his constant TV appearances during the election campaign. God help us.
I think Starmer would be a good choice too if it was down to the likes of me who were making the decision. However, it is not as it is the likes of the ****ing idiots who wanted Brexit, the ****ing idiots who just voted in a massive tory majority
He lost the right to be listened to in 2003
Dazh, the main reason Corbyn became Leader was probably his strong and principled opposition to the Iraq war, shared by nearly all members (and myself). Perhaps determining the future direction of Labour, and discounting everything otherwise achieved and understood by the only Labour administration of our lifetimes, based on defence or opposition to joint UK/USA Middle Eastern military folly might not be so wise after all.
[ I never voted Labour under Blair and voted for Labour under Corbyn both times - my personal politics are far closer to JC’s than TB’s, and not just as regards Iraq - but it may well be that Blair has more understanding to offer as regards a strategy for making Labour electable than Corbyn does. Labour can’t just be the party of you and me… they need wide spread public support to achieve anything at all. ]
Looks like Clive Lewis is in for the leadership contest - don’t see him winning, but he’ll mix things up, a lot… very left wing credentials but willing to call out the current team when they failed to offer proper opposition.
He was also directly responsible for the deaths of nearly a million people. Which is more important?
I think the propasal is that Labour emulate the election winning aspects of Blair, but not the "War-y" aspects of Blair. HTH.
I still don't why there are more than two candidates.
Surely the only way to beat RLB [1] is to have one 'non-corbynist' standing against her. Otherwise the vote is split and she wins. That's what they did last time with Owen Smith, why is this time different? Or will non-Corbynites drop out later?
[1] Shouldn't be a hyphen according to twitter.
He was also directly responsible for the deaths of nearly a million people. Which is more important?
Keep going with your moral victories, while the tories keep winning the real ones.
Keep going with your moral victories, while the tories keep winning the real ones.
No way should it be either or.
Not a logical position.
Is it too tricky to demand both?
Keep going with your moral victories, while the tories keep winning the real ones.
Blair's foreign misadventure made us all losers. But hey, Surestart, so a million dead brown people is ok.
I think Starmer would be a good choice too if it was down to the likes of me who were making the decision.
Precisely this. I'm a city-living middle-class remainer. I don't see how Labour wins enough extra seats by appealing to more people like me.
so a million dead brown people is ok.
From "Maybe Labour should attempt to win an election" to "a million dead brown people is ok" is a fair few leaps up the ladder of inference. 🙂
I don’t see how Labour wins enough extra seats by appealing to more people like me.
They don't, you'll vote for Labour whatever they do.
The suggestion is to move Labour back to the centre where they've won elections in the past.
From “Maybe Labour should attempt to win an election” to “a million dead brown people is ok” is a fair few leaps up the ladder of inference. 🙂
Not really. There seem to be quite a few Blair advocates in this thread.
They don’t, you’ll vote for Labour whatever they do.
Wrong. I returned to Labour because they moved to left of centre.
The suggestion is to move Labour back to the centre where they’ve won elections in the past.
Yes, that will definitely appeal to all those voters who switched to the Lib Dems. Remind me how many seats they have?
I don’t see how Labour wins enough extra seats by appealing to more people like me.
They don’t, you’ll vote for Labour whatever they do.
Wrong. I returned to Labour because they moved to left of centre.
Ok, so you're right, they fell on their arse appealing to people you. Time to appeal to the broader electorate.
Looks like Clive Lewis is in for the leadership contest
That's a game-changer for two reasons.
1) He speaks his mind - one of the reasons I never warmed to Burnham/Cooper/Kendall was that they never seemed to want to reveal their true thoughts - they thought that being ultra-even-handed (I wanted to say ultra-conservative, but that would have meant something different in this context) was the way forward. They seem much better as back-benchers/mayor to be honest.
2) It throws another man into the pot. Previously it was looking like Starmer against a few women, which wouldn't have been a good look.
It'll be interesting to see how he talks about brexit as he was fiercely remain.
Wrong. I returned to Labour because they moved to left of centre.
Same here. The challenge is to keep us, but also win back more of the centre. The appeal of Labour has to widen. That probably means having some key left policies, but accepting and embracing both people and policies that are not as of the left…
To make it more succinct - ignore those on the left who want a revolution - embrace those on left who want a fairer society and improved quality of life for all. People can get behind the second, they will alway run scared of the first.
Wrong. I returned to Labour because they moved to left of centre.
Same here.
Just out of interest, prior to the Momentum takeover, what was the party of choice for those so far left of Milliband they couldn't bring themselves to vote Labour. I mean the libdems were arguably left of Lab for a while but not to any significant degree. Socialist Worker's Party can't stand in many seats. So which party?
Ok, so you’re right, they fell on their arse appealing to people you. Time to appeal to the broader electorate
With Brexit sandwiched in the middle of all this you can never know for sure that left of centre ideology wouldn't attract lots of voters.
I suspect left of centre will become very appealing in a couple of years.
Centre died with Libdems.
2) It throws another man into the pot. Previously it was looking like Starmer against a few women, which wouldn’t have been a good look.
Really good point, hadn't thought of that.
With Brexit sandwiched in the middle of all this you can never know for sure
2017, plus the previous 50 odd years. The PLP's jobs depend on winning elections and their conclusion is clear.
With Brexit sandwiched in the middle of all this you can never know for sure that left of centre ideology wouldn’t attract lots of voters.
1) As I said before, Labour probably have to lose the next (post-Brexit) election before they properly learn the lessons of losing this one.
2) “Left of centre” takes many forms… the version coming from Milne, Murray & Len isn’t one that the country will ever get behind.
coming from Milne, Murray & Len isn’t one that the country will ever get behind.
+1
"Public School Stalinists" - and when you read their Wikipedia entries that's not even an exageration.
Murray: "After forty years in the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) and then the Communist Party of Britain, he joined the Labour Party towards the end of 2016." - ran Labours 2017 campaign.
To make it more succinct – ignore those on the left who want a revolution – embrace those on left who want a fairer society and improved quality of life for all. People can get behind the second, they will alway run scared of the first.
Very well put. You would think it would be easy to sell a fairer society to the majority of people but the last election backs up your statement.
Looks like Clive Lewis is in for the leadership contest
Would work for me but he would quickly be labelled another marxist. Plus he may be the wrong colour for mass appeal...
‘Scuse my laziness but is it a FPTP election for the leadership or is it a loser-gets-eliminated until only one left?
The rules are pretty crazy deadlydarcy … read them to get a real insight into how rules can be set/changed to control the party. The final vote is a fairly straight forward AV type affair (members rank candidates by preference)… but the nominations? Wowzers…
Artice here suggesting Starmer may not necessarily get enough union backing to make it onto the member ballot.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/12/07/labs-leadership-rules-will-limit-the-number-of-nominees-and-could-well-ensure-its-an-all-female-battle/
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-leadership-election-rules-who-can-vote-next-labour-leader-nominations-explained-1343638
I wondered why I hadn’t seen David Lammy mentioned – interested to know why you think not, kelvin ?
Putting it bluntly, he is black
Remember that Labour will need to win back their ‘red wall’ with all those salt of the earth white working class heroes that dazh so loves to lionise.
Not a chance.
an interesting view here
so suggestions for the future but an analysis of the current party
https://unherd.com/2019/12/how-i-became-tory-scum/
Remember that Labour will need to win back their ‘red wall’ with all those salt of the earth white working class heroes that dazh so loves to lionise.
Not a chance.
I disagree, it's cultural identity that matters, people will vote for someone they identify as "British" (which is progressively colour blind as years go by), who champions causes that relate across communities (not campaigning to a narrow colour/ religion base) , is competent, and inspires some hope that things can be better
racism still exists in the UK but it's changing fast (obviously not fast enough), people who bother to vote are the least likely to be the idiots otherwise the BNP etc wouldn't be the non entity politically they are now
the conservative party is likely to have the first BAME PM
racism still exists in the UK but it’s changing fast (obviously not fast enough)
I would say it has gone in the reverse direction over the last 10 years. I think harmony peaked in the early 2000s (racism, sexism, loads of other ism's) and have been going downhill since then.
Probably helped by people being given a voice via social media
people who bother to vote are the least likely to be the idiots otherwise the BNP etc wouldn’t be the non entity politically they are now
Agree. Sajid Javid, Priti Patel & James Cleverly have all been high profile in the recent election and didn't seem to do any electoral harm. People wouldn't even blink at a BAME party leader.
Probably helped by people being given a voice via social media
Just because it's easier to hear the idiots it doesn't mean there are more of them
I see that the Labour Party are handing out redundancy notices to the junior staff (merry Christmas!) while the millionaire Marxists at the top will all be retaining their handsomely-paid positions. Milne, Murphy and the Corbynite cabal were all moved onto new water-tight gold-plated contracts a couple of months ago.
It’s great this socialism lark, isn’t it?
... for the few, not the many
It’s depressing, not funny.
AlexSimon
Subscriber
That’s a game-changer for two reasons.
1) He speaks his mind – one of the reasons I never warmed to Burnham/Cooper/Kendall was that they never seemed to want to reveal their true thoughts
I've said a lot about "learning the real lessons not just taking the comforting answers" and this is your perfect example. Labour's own post-mortem after Miliband said "nobody knew what he stood for"- it was the single biggest and strongest criticism. His strongest moment in the whole campaign was when he got pissed off about his dad.
But by the time it was released, "too left wing" had totally taken root as the favoured myth and this lesson was pretty much ignored. And so 2 of the candidates decided that they would go wherever the wind took them as a matter of policy, while Burnham himself didn't know what he stood for never mind anyone else.
He wouldn't be a bad leader, Burnham, if he had a bit of steel in him and a direction to point in. But he doesn't and he doesn't seem to want either. A lot of these in the party these days, largely a product of the "what does Tony think" years.
Just because it’s easier to hear the idiots it doesn’t mean there are more of them
Nope, but it brings it out into the public for others to see and agree with as they think like that but were didn't want to say it. And if just 10% of people are put off by the colour of the leader that is 10% that Labour cannot afford to lose.
one of the reasons I never warmed to Burnham/Cooper/Kendall
Perhaps they couldn’t, because they knew that they had to present two faces… one that might get them elected leader, the other that might get their party into government.
Although, in my opinion, Burnham is a complete weather vane of a politician anyway…
https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn-mp-campaign-to-keep-jeremy-corbyn-as-leaderA wind up surely? So in the spirit of the joke I've signed.
A wind up surely? So in the spirit of the joke I’ve signed.
I don't think it's a wind up. There are plenty of loud labour left who are banging on about increased number of votes to say he was successful.
The lack of a clear successor for their way is pushing them to desperately keep Corbyn
Thus should however #BackBurgon
Indeed. There is a letter going around social media signed by lots of artists (including lots I respect) thanking and praising Jeremy Corbyn. I still can’t work out if the original is a wind up or not either. Shared lots though, so we can assume that at least those sharing it think that about JC. And they’re not Tories sharing it, before anyone suggests that.
I disagree, it’s cultural identity that matters, people will vote for someone they identify as “British” (which is progressively colour blind as years go by), who champions causes that relate across communities (not campaigning to a narrow colour/ religion base) , is competent, and inspires some hope that things can be better
Now it is my turn to disagree.
Hey chubbs, does an original thought ever enter your head or is it all just breaks from your bottle of bitty to post stuff you’ve seen on Twitter?
Sadly I think the Labour party will end up with RLB and prove they haven't learnt a thing. Another useless leader who will just do as she is told by momentum/unions and will annoy more people that she gets the support of. I found her annoying the first time I ever saw her and she will go down with the public as well as Jo Swinson.
I also highly doubt that they will be a single candidate in the leaders contest who would be able to do what is required.
. Another useless leader who will just do as she is told by momentum/unions and will annoy more people that she gets the support of. I found her annoying the first time I ever saw her and she will go down with the public as well as Jo Swinson
I love how you talk as though it's past-tense and yet we're not even at the leadership elections yet.
Instead of whining on the forums you could be part of the Labour party and shape it. (Apologies if you already are.)
Just out of interest, prior to the Momentum takeover, what was the party of choice for those so far left
Socialist Workers'. In the late 80's and 90's going to a Labour meeting meant running the gauntlet of folk flogging radical left newspapers and pamphlets, with the appealing sales pitch of being called tory scum or spat at if you didn't Fun times