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She may play well in England but until the labour party actually face up to what is happening in Scotland and produce some real policies tailored to the situation they will remain dead in Scotland.
Labour need to invest in it's Scottish political thought, devise a set of joined up policies and then hammer the SNP on health, education, transport, the economy. Dig into the quango spending and point to where the wealth that Scotland has is being misspent on
They are more likely to get that happening with Nandy than under Starmer of Long-Bailey
Indeed. One of the problems of successive labour leaders, going back decades is that despite paying lip-service to the regions, they're political instincts are as centrists (as in centralising power, not Blairism).
Corbyn was just the same as his predecessors in that respect. Maybe more so. All policy must be devised in London. In power it comes as dictat from Westminster. In Grandads case it was from the bunker under the allotment in Islington. But there has been no interest in the party for a long time in listening to any contributions from anyone outside the London/Westminster/Islington political bubble.
And thats all just come back to bite them on the arse. They ignored the interests of Scotland and lazily and arrogantly assumed people would just vote for them anyway. They didn't. And now the same just happened in the north and the midlands.
At the risk of sounding repetitive, that only seems to have sunk in with one of the candidates for leader. But then she's been saying it for years, while being ignored.
they’re political instincts are as centrists
All policy must be devised in London.
If localism is your thing then RLB's declared support for devolving power out of London and decentralising political activity should be appealing. It won't be though will it because it doesn't fit your 6th former fantasy.
I actually read that article when she published it. An absolute masterclass in mouthing platitudes while saying absolutely nothing.
I love this bit...
we should have used the aftermath of the referendum result to go around the country, holding public meeting after public meeting to stir up a movement for real change – pledging to take on the political establishment and raise up the people’s demands beyond our institutional arrangements with the European Union. That way, our manifesto could have become a set of popular remedies to deal with the three linked crises our country faces
And where were you when the party should have been doing that then Becky?
Oh yeah... Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
In Westminster. Helping write the party's manifesto.
like I said... platitudes. Meaningless lip-service
Like this comment from the FBU in support of RLB:
"There can be no going back to the so-called centrism of New Labour - we never again want to see our party turn its back on workers, public ownership, and its own members."
Looks like the Tories will be in for a lot longer than 10 years.
My god - I agree with squirrelking about scottish politics!
Nice to see Emily Thornberry has publicly apologised to the SNP for her hate remarks.
She sounded genuine. Kudos to her.
I'm sure a lot of people can see a scenario where Starmer wins, loses the next election and then Lisa Nandy, or another as yet unknown candidate is elected as Leader. There's a logic to it, put the experienced, stable candidate in, Nandy being too inexperienced for now. (caveat: I am of the view that the other candidates in the race are unconscionable,)
That'll be too late. It'll be Boris and the beurocrat. He'll run rings around him. I just can't see Starmer holding Boris to account and Labour could sink even lower.
The Labour heartlands wasn't a shock, it wasn't an accident. The Tories targeted that specific demographic, they knew what they were doing. For a decade segments of the Labour vote has been picked off why they wern't looking. This is the only thing Labour need to address right now, it's not about policy it's more about keeping and eye on where the next segment of voters you are about to lose are and what are you going to do about it.
Labour have got to realise they are not fighting the Tories anymore they are fighting Boris. All successful recent administrations have been double acts, Thatcher and Lawson, Blair and Brown, Cameron and Osborne. Boris is on his own. He has no faction behind him other than a public mandate. When you see any Tory minister rolled out it really doesn't matter what they say because the answer will all ways be what Boris wants, he will completely re-draw the Conservative party into whatever image he wants, factions in his own party will be powerless to stop him. If Labour come up with any good policy ideas Boris will steal them instantly, he isn't beholden to ideological forces to the degree that previous administrations have been.
My god – I agree with squirrelking about scottish politics!
Boris has his evil genius behind him. Dominic Cummings. You can hate him, but you have to respect his ability. He’s bloody good at what he does
Blair had Malcolm Tucker Alastair Campbell. Ditto.
Corbyn had a collection of clueless communist half-wits who’s only qualification was that they were part of his cabal
It doesn’t matter who they get in place as leader as much as who they get to support them
A month before the election all Corbyns useless, millionaire, privately educated idiots were given highly paid permanent contracts to keep them in place, whatever happened. All while junior staff at central office were handed redundancy notices in the wake of the election defeat that was all their fault. They’re now waging a campaign to get more of their mates in place on the highly paid party gravy train before the leadership election
Socialism, eh?
Got to love it
Isn’t it meant to be the Tory’s who are accused of cronyism?
Difficult to point that out while Len McClusky is sat at his table in the Ivy before getting a cab back to his million quid central London apartment, all paid for by union members subs
They’re charlatans and hypocrites. Snake oil salesmen who are only serving their own agendas. And they wonder why ‘their’ northern heartlands deserted them?
I can’t imagine why?
You really couldn’t make it up. Well... you could. They just did. Labours absolutely catastrophic election defeat,was nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn (peace be upon him), who is still absolutely bloody brilliant. It’s all the media’s fault apparently. So says the party’s own internal analysis concludes, led by the totally impartial Ian Lavery
One of these articles is satire
Labour's internal investigation was nothing more than a beatification process.
Momentum is a religious cult. Jeremy is more concerned with the state of his soul than the state of the country, more concerned with being right than getting it right, so when he turns up at the pearly gates of Marxist heaven he passes the audit and doesn't get held up in purgatory due to any previous ideological transgressions.
The fact that the Corbyn cronies got the fat cat contracts is disgusting. The fact that they are still there is more than disgusting. Can't they just take their sack of cash and **** off?. In the corporate world we're used to seeing failure rewarded with a huge severance payment, in the Labour party it seems you get to screw up, get the pay off but still get to stick around to screw it up again.
Binners - as you know, Lavery is a grasping, inarticulate, incompetent individual who rinsed the NUM.
Totally despicable.
When I lived on Tyneside his type were widely despised by the union members who funded them.
Lavery and others are still marching to a drum beat which has been out of sync for decades.
He's another living well on the back of others; not dissimilar to your mate McCluskey.
My dad was from the Rhondda, so I’ve grown up with the credo the Tories are not to be trusted, especially after the Tonypandy Riots.
I’m actually starting to think, however, the Tories are the more “honest” politicians. Yes they are looking after no1 and the interest of their ilk only. Any behaviour like the Hamilton’s, Aitkin etc is just them being true to form.
Whereas labour and union leaders whom one would expect to be more socially conscious are just as self serving, which to me makes them worse.
Len McClusky, Ian Lavery and their ilk are utterly shameless and self-serving. They’re no different from the Derek Hattons of the Militant tendency. Cozily lining the pockets of themselves and their cabal while mouthing prehistoric 70’s platitudes
They give no more of a shit about the people they’re meant to represent than the Tory’s do. Which plenty of people could see through, hence Borises massive majority. Not many people had any confidence that Jeremy and the clowns and millionaire Marxists around him offered a viable government
The fact that all but one of the leadership contenders of the Labour Party not only wont point this elephant in the room out, but continue to genuflect to these self-serving, egomaniacal dinosaurs means the Labour Party will continue its journey into total political irrelevance. A weird sect steadfastly stuck in the 1970’s
The rest of us are left with permanent Tory rule. Not that they care, as long as they can carry on with their pointless posturing while living nice cozy gold-plated lifestyles funded by union members subs and taxpayers
Jeremy Corbyn has been picking up his nice fat salary as ‘leader of HM opposition. I reckon we’ve got a good case for breach of contract there
He barely phoned it in
The lot of them are more interested in their gravy train than they are about their much much vaunted socialist values, which their own lifestyles do little to back up.
Charlatans and hypocrites, the lot of them
Just logged in. I see the Daily Mail is running riot again.
Communists, Marxists and Socialists all at the same time.
Dominic is now a hero and Boris appears to be a leader to aspire too.
Why is it the electorate are thick and stupid when they vote for Brexit but they suddenly are in the clear when they vote Tory Binners?
Difficult to accuse anyone of being thick for voting for Boris when you’ve people who can’t see straight through Corbyn, Len and the rest of the plastic socialists living cozy, comfortable, highly paid, ring-fenced central London lives at the top of the Labour Party where they barely even turn up for ‘work’
I worked on the unionised chemical plants on the Mersey estuary in the late 80’s and early 90’s.
I saw enough of self-serving Union shysters like McClusky to know what they’re all about.
They haven’t changed
If only there was, oh I dunno, another party you could vote for?
The non-Ian Lavery analysis of the last election concludes that millions of former labour voters opted for ‘none of the above’ and didn’t bother
So whoever wins the Labour leadership has to acknowledge that where the party is at the moment isn’t something that can inspire people to get off their arses to vote for it once every five years.
And looking at the state of it, it’s not difficult to see why.
Not something that seems to particularly bother the present ten out of ten ‘leadership’
I follow plenty of good decent intelligent Labour members on Facebook… they are talking as if it has to be RLB… and completely dismissive of all other candidates, and their reasoning is, well, not well reasoned in my opinion. She is the anointed one for many.
It’s a cult. The bizarre thing is that their David Koresh is apparently about to shuffle off (I’ll believe it when I see it) but he needs to anoint his successor first
And all the clueless sixth formers look to the man who’s delivered two election defeats - the latter the biggest election defeat for labour since the 1930’s - for answers
Are they really that thick? Seriously? Apparently so
It’s like looking to Donald Trump to propose answers for climate change
I have to say I am deeply surprised to find that Binners isn't happy with the candidates.
Yep, if only the great Andy Burnham was standing eh...
Yep, if only the great Andy Burnham was standing eh…
Flip flop Burnham was terrible on a national stage. He's doing better in his current form but could yet flounder.
He'll never be in Westminster as an MP again
I have to say I am deeply surprised to find that Binners isn’t happy with the candidates.
And, what are your thoughts on them? If RLB is made leader, do you think she can make Labour look less insular, and widen it’s appeal enough to get to form a government (alone or with others) after the next general election?
Agree about the weather vane politician who is now MCR mayor… I for one am glad he’s not in the running… but then, I’ve been voting Labour… can anyone think of another mayor prepared to completely change his position on major issues to win over people not otherwise voting for his party…? One that went on to use that ‘flexible’ approach to policy to become PM? Hmm… perhaps those of us wanting a principled consistent leader for Labour are part of the problem for the party… now that’s a depressing thought.
I see the Hodge fanboi feels free to let rip his Islamophobic tropes on here:
'Jeremy Corbyn (peace be upon him)'
Is this the new norm?
Islamophobic tropes?
Erm.... yeah... whatever, comrade
Anyway... back to the matters in hand, outside the bunker, and with no tinfoil helmets on...
Andy Burnham is up for re-election in May. He'll no doubt win comfortably. In constituancies like mine that have, some for the first time ever... just elected Tory MPs. He'll do that, as he always has done, by distancing himself from the Westminster labour party and the voter-repellent Corbynite 'Project' and employing that filtihiest of words... pragmatism. Oh... and competence. Another alien concept to the Westminster party in its Islington bunker.
No lessons to be learnt there though, obviously. We've no interest in people who win elections. Idealogical purity is far more important as you stride out into the political wilderness.
He’ll never be in Westminster as an MP again
Indeed. He's bright enough to stay well clear of that car crash. And in contrast to those in Westminster/Islington, he's prioritised actually getting stuff done, instead of endless, pointless, impotent virtue-signalling and placard-waving on Twitter
I see that Starmer has folded and started to pander further to the sixth formers with new praise for Magic Grandad.
One thing is becoming increasingly clear. The labour party is ****ed. The paradox at its heart is that to be elected leader you will have to parrot the Corbynite narrative. The slight problem there is that the Corbynite narrative is electorally toxic with voters. So to do what you need to do to get yourself elected as leader, you curse your leadership and the wider party in the eyes of the people who actually matter... the electorate
Thats some Catch 22 the party has created for itself
I have to say I am deeply surprised to find that Binners isn’t happy with the candidates
Not at all. I really like Lisa Nandy and think that she's exactly what the labour party needs if their even going to seriously begin the long slog back to relevence outside the sixth form. Obviously that means she hasn't a hope. the fabled 'membership' will no doubt plumb for RLB and in doing so hammer the final nail into the coffin of the party and deliver permanent tory rule.
Cheered on by comrade Len, Seamas, and, of course, Boris, Dom and Tory Central office
Will you be happy with Keir Binbins?
I find it funny that you don't want Keir to pander to the LP members to get elected but you do want the LP to pander to the electorate to get elected. Isn't Keir being pragmatic in doing so?
I think Kier Starmer is credible, yes. Whether he's prepared to do what is needed to make the party electable again is another matter
Whats clear is that whoever wins the leadership is going to need some kind of'Clause 4' moment where they have to get the party, and the membership, to face up to some uncomfortable realities.
Namely that the voters of this country are simply never going to deliver a majority for anything that looks like Corbynism
As this thread demonstrates, there seems little appetite within the party to engage with that glaring reality. The blinkers are on and the comfort blanket of moral righteousness and idealogical purity has been well and truly snuggled into
If you want to hear to what degree, then listen to Len McClusky intervirew on Pienaars Politics. Its like he, and those around him, are inhabiting some kind of alternative reality. While singing the praises of 'Becky' he was asked why the labour party slumped to sucha a catastrophic defeat. His answer...
a) Brexit
b) Tom Watson (yes... seriously)
c) The Media
Thats it
Nothing else. Not Jeremy. Not the incompetent closet communists around him. Not a front bench stacked with non-entities, there are no other merit other than their nodding dog loyalty to the glorious leader. Not the magic book of dreams that was the manifesto (which, apparently, according to both him and RLB the electorate loved). None of that.
Discounting Brexit (as that is now apaprently done), Tom Watson was more at fault for the defeat than Corbyn and his acolytes. And the media, obvs (booooo... hiss... Rupert Bloody Murdoch)
To quote Malcom Tucker.... Deluded to the point of autism.
Binners, why don't you just come out the closet and admit to yourself that you're a Tory at heart? Maybe not a full on black hearted Thatcherite but a Tory nontheless. You want the Labour party to be more like the Tory party, why? So you can vote for centre right policies with a clean conscience? Just rip the plaster off, deal with the momentary sting and then feel better about yourself for it.
Or just start campaigning for the Libs, they're closer to what you seem to believe in than either Labour or the Tories and don't have the same lunatic element. Orange is still a shade of red. Scotland has proven it needn't be a binary choice (albeit by reducing that choice to one but we'll skip over that bit for now).
If you think this is wrong explain why. Explain why left of centre policies from a traditionally left of centre party are wrong and why we should be supporting the opposite. Because for the life of me I'll be buggered if I can figure out why.
Ah, yes.... if you don’t agree with Jeremy then you’re a Tory?
Accusing everyone to the right of Len McClusky of that has worked really well, hasn’t it?
You can’t just aloofly sneer at everyone for their supposed ideological impurity, then the next day expect them to vote for you. That’s not how democracy works. Ask Boris. He gets it.
You have to make an offer that people are prepared to believe in, not berate them for failing to see the obvious wisdom of your moral superiority
Ah, yes…. if you don’t agree with Jeremy then you’re a Tory?
Its the black and white world of the true believers Binners.
You want the Labour party to be more like the Tory party, why? So you can vote for centre right policies with a clean conscience?
Its actually how you would win elections in this country as it currently stands, I'm not one for going on too much about ideological impurity like Binners, but you are operating on the belief that your hands and minds must not be sullied by straying from the one true path, and that it is the voting public that must come to Socialism...and a few of you will be hoping that with Brexit and a few terms of tory rule that this will happen.
All you have done so far is let the country down. Politics is a dirty business, full of compromise, hypocrites, liars, it would seem the current labour party and its followers are too weak for a dirty fight.
This whole Red Tory thing is beyond absurd. You're literaly saying we don't want people like you in our party, we don't want people like you to vote for us.
In the US, Republicans tried this in 2008 and 2012 with their RINO accusation, (Republican in name only.) Didn't work for them.
Ideology is a 20th Century thing. Do you think the voters that deserted Labour voted for a Tory ideology do you? You think they didn't take one look at Corbyn and his front bench and were'nt terrified?
Pragmatism trumps principles in the 21st century. If you harp on about your principles it just appears like you're inflexibe (as well as implying that others don't have them) It suggeats that you're of a fixed mimd, that a some point you stopped learning and would be incapable of operating in a complex and ever shifting world. In short, You're a liability.
This whole Red Tory thing is beyond absurd. You’re literaly saying we don’t want people like you in our party, we don’t want people like you to vote for us.
+1
Because of this, even if Starmer get's in, I'm still going to find it a bitter pill to swallow voting labour.
If the party just puts a new leader in place, without a fundamental shift in direction, adopting a more open, transparent and pragmatic approach to policy then the Labour party is as good as finished.
It will complete the move that started with Corbyns election of essentially becoming a shouty, insular, self-absorbed, self-righteous protest group rather than a serious political party. In its present form the party is incapable of providing a serious opposition, let a lone a credible alternative government
There was a good article in yesterdays Observer (yes, yes... I know... along with the BBC its apparently now a mouthpiece of right-wing Tory propaganda) by Nick Cohen which incredulously looks at the denial presently at play within the Labour upper echelons
Labour’s hierarchy should be full of shame – but they just sound smug
If Corbynites meant what they said, they would be ashamed to have given the Conservatives another five years in power. As it is, they can no more feel shame than accept responsibility
He's bang on! If you listen to the Len McClusky interview I linked too, its staggering! It's like they're living in some parallel universe where the election result was a vindication of the UK's overwhelming desire for a Corbynite socialist government. These people aren't so much living in their own bubble, they're on another planet
Ah, yes…. if you don’t agree with Jeremy then you’re a Tory?
Not at all, by all means disagree but stop proposing policies at odds with the party. Like I said, if you like the centre ground campaign for the Libs, to date you've not given me one good reason (or in fact any) why that's not an ideologically better proposition.
Pragmatism trumps principles in the 21st century.
I think we have wildly different definitions of pragmatism. As a Labour voter, "Holding your nose" and voting Tory is not pragmatic. Pragmatic would be voting for Labour despite shortcomings.
Do you think the voters that deserted Labour voted for a Tory ideology do you?
Er, the results would suggest that, yes.
You think they didn’t take one look at Corbyn and his front bench and were’nt terrified?
They may well have been. The question is why? It couldn't possibly be related to those within the party themselves doing everything possible to talk folk out of voting for them could it? Of those same people talking of "far left" ideology and evoking images of failed socialism. Nah, couldn't be that.
And despite your assumptions I'm not a particular Corbyn fan and I care less for his flunkies, I do however believe that things could have been a whole lot better if people within the party stopped badmouthing it at every given opportunity and got on with trying to effect useful change rather than throwing toys out the pram.
They may well have been. The question is why? It couldn’t possibly be related to those within the party themselves doing everything possible to talk folk out of voting for them could it?
The ever lengthening list of pitiful excuses and scapegoats now covers just about everyone other than Grandad and those around him, who have all been duly exonerated from any responsibility, by no less than Ian Lavery.
Do you think anyone on the left is going to get in touch with anyone in the real world at any point in the near future?
It certainly appears not, at this point. Lefty La-la-land obviously seems to be far to cozy
if people within the party stopped badmouthing it at every given opportunity and got on with trying to effect useful change rather than throwing toys out the pram.
Don't be daft, those on the right would have a pretty pointless existence if they didn't spend almost all their time slagging off their own party rather than the tories. I often wonder at their motivations. I don't think they're tories, I just think it's a combination of finding it easier to fight against those in their own party, and dummies-out-of-the-pram petulance that they're not in charge any more.
I find it funny that you don’t want Keir to pander to the LP members to get elected but you do want the LP to pander to the electorate to get elected. Isn’t Keir being pragmatic in doing so?
Nail on the f***** head! The labour party of Blair and his cronies no longer exists. The sooner binners and the rest of them get used to that the sooner labour can move on.
those on the right
And we’re off again.
the Labour Party will continue its journey into total political irrelevance. A weird sect steadfastly stuck in the 1970’s
They should do quite well after Brexit then?
Nail on the f***** head! The labour party of Blair and his cronies no longer exists. The sooner binners and the rest of them get used to that the sooner labour can move on.
NEWSFLASH: 'Moving on' is exactly what the last 4 years, under the 'leadership' of the sainted benevolence of Comrade Corbyn have been about. A total break with the past. A complete rejection of Blairism/Centrism (booooooo... hisss.... IRAQ!!) A new socialist dawn. The delivery of a new ideologically pure Utopia.
We've reached the final destination of that particular project. It ended with the biggest Tory majority since 1983. The voters of this country gave it a massive two fingers and opted for what looked like a least worst option. Imagine that for an achievement.... Joris Bohnson and his far right cronies were a least worst option? Staggering!
At some point those on the left are going to have to poke their heads out of the bunker, take their tinfoil helmets off, stop blaming everyone else for the abject failure of their cloud-cuckoo-land manifesto and voter-repellent 'leadership' and acknowledge that they, and they alone, own this shitshow
If they fail to do this - and as yourself and the rest of the fan club are busy demonstrating - theres absolutely zero sign of that happening, then its permanent tory rule for all of us
It really is that simple
RL-B was spouting something the other day that sounded too much like BloJo for my liking.
She’ll need to move her position a long way to get my vote.
Do you think anyone on the left is going to get in touch with anyone in the real world at any point in the near future?
People in the 'real world' currently think climate change either doesn't exist or can be fixed by recycling cans and bottles. People in the 'real world' are obsessed with trade tariffs and 'making our own laws'. People in the 'real world' think all our problems are down to foreigners. People in the real world think those of us who eat foreign food and don't eat meat are weirdos.
The real world you're referring to is nothing of the sort, it's a nostalgic fantasy that we can go back to the glory days of fish and chips and asians only working in corner shops and curry houses. Anyone who thinks climate change is a big problem, that we should pay more for public services, and is comfortable with homosexuals and non-white people is roundly dismissed as an elitist metropolitan communist do-gooder. The real world is a cesspit of hatred, bile, selfishness and petulance, and I'm quite happy to stay as far away from it as possible.
We’ve reached the final destination of that particular project. It ended with the biggest Tory majority since 1983. The voters of this country gave it a massive two fingers and opted for what looked like a least worst option. Imagine that for an achievement…. Joris Bohnson and his far right cronies were a least worst option? Staggering!
But they didn't give the policies the two fingers, they just wanted to "Get Brexit Done". Rerun the election with the same people in 2 years time when Brexit has been "done" and the result would have been very different.
The leader certainly didn't help but Brexit was just as big an issue issue. The policies were good and they should have just shouted about the 2 most popular ones and repeated it rather than confusing everyone with loads of polices.
Daz... I know its Monday, mate, but even by your standards you're a little ray of sunshine this morning.
Do you need a hug?
Do you need a hug?
Ha! S'ok it's all just a coping mechanism. First the sociopathic rage, then the defensive nihilism. I'm well practised at it 🙂
Why would shifting away from Corbynism necessarily mean a return to Blairism? Are we that lacking in imagination that we can't think of other alternatives? RLB talks of a revolution in politics, the only revolution that needs to happen is that within the Labour party, because at the moment it's not fit for purpose.
If we can accuse Brexit voters of being enthralled by an imaginary version of the past then surely we must hold Labour to account in the same way, trotting out (pun intended) a version of late 70's-early 80's loony leftism. One side wearing a pair or rose tinted spectacles whilst the other wears a blindfold.
Politics is a sales job, Labour needs to set out a vision for the future and market it. At present it is completely stymied by the structures within the party. It's painfull to watch leadership candidates campaign with one (or both) hands tied behind their back. They seem too afraid to say what they know needs to be said.
This is a thread about Labour leadership candidates, it could also be titled New direction for Labour. The current direction pins all it's hopes on the country completely falling apart and the population seeing the light and turning to Marxism. That's a pretty cr*p message to sell.
Labour needs a post Brexit mindset, Brexit didn't happen last Friday, it happened 3 years ago. (I know someone will be on here in a bit saying it's only just started and when seen as a process they'd be right.) Lisa Nandy seems to be the only candidate to have accepted the reality of Brexit and she accepted it some time ago. This leads me to think she's been thinking in a post Brexit mindset for some time, not mulling over long lost battles.
But they didn’t give the policies the two fingers, they just wanted to “Get Brexit Done”. Rerun the election with the same people in 2 years time when Brexit has been “done” and the result would have been very different.
Labours messages managed to get more confusing as the election campaign progressed. It felt like they were throwing policies at the wall to see what would stick. Making it up on the hoof.
And the parties ratings were only headed in one direction. Through the floor. Why on earth do you think that will change in a couple more years, given the utterly shambolic state of the party? It looks like all they plan on doing is replacing Grandad with his anointed one and carrying on banging the same drum that voters rejected twice already. The last time by a thumping great margin.
What is it they say about the definition of madness? They need a radical change of direction after this miserable defeat. Only Lisa Nandy seems to get that.
The leader certainly didn’t help but Brexit was just as big an issue issue. The policies were good and they should have just shouted about the 2 most popular ones and repeated it rather than confusing everyone with loads of polices.
All this illustrates is the political cluelessness of those around Corbyn and their utter ineptitude when it came to running a campaign. This is all well documented. All those marxist incompetents should be history after that magnitude of failure they delivered. But instead, in a typical bout of nepotism, they were all given (very highly paid) permanent contracts so they can't be put out to pasture. Thus reinforcing union stereotypes of 'jobs for life for the boys' and rewarding failure. A great look in 2020.
Whats more, the Corbynites are presently franticly trying to secure more senior places on their union-funded gravy train at the top of the party, to ensure anyone who follows Grandad (in case the membership fails to deliver 'Becky') is straight-jacketed into the same narrow political cul-de-sac
They're behaving exactly like the Cult that they've always been accused of being. A closed shop.
Labours messages managed to get more confusing as the election campaign progressed. It felt like they were throwing policies at the wall to see what would stick. Making it up on the hoof.
Exactly why I said pick the 2 most popular and just repeat them everyday. The others can just stay in the manifesto which nobody reads.
All this illustrates is the political cluelessness of those around Corbyn and their utter ineptitude when it came to running a campaign.
I think this is the closest we're going to get to a concensus between us. That was entirely the problem, I don't think the policies were in themselves problematic as opposed to the way they were packaged and presented.
Yet the millionaire Marxists responsible for those appalling communications and disastrous strategy have all been given new contracts and pay-rises, so whoever ends up as leader is saddled with the same gang of highly paid incompetents.
I thought it was the Tory’s who were meant to be the old boys club?
Ironically, their (horribly effective) head of communications and strategy isn’t even a member of the party.
Here’s an interesting little snippet for you... he’s also paid less than Grandads strategic genius, Seamas Milne, who’s almost comic ineptitude is all funded by union members subs of course.
Jobs for the boys...
I think this is the closest we’re going to get to a concensus between us. That was entirely the problem, I don’t think the policies were in themselves problematic as opposed to the way they were packaged and presented.
The policies were great, Nationalise everything quickly, every family will be £6k better off, water and utilities will be cheaper with better quality, free interent, 4 day working week etc etc.
A great list of policies, which everyone in the Country should vote for.
But in the real world, it was clear that lot could not be paid for, and it just looked like a made up list, which was totally unworkable, and so far off the affordability range that even solid Labour voters couldnt vote for.
I always laugh when someone on the front bench say they have 'won the argument'.
Yes, you have, we all want these things, but the clueless Labour Leaders could never deliver it, so we'd never vote for it.
Disregarding Corbyn (who is an abysmal Leader), the Labour front bench was a Vanarama league team up against Premier leagues Tories. And the Tories have been doing terribly for the last 3 years.
They didnt lift their game enough to even get a draw.
And, it really was the worst Governemt for many years they were playing against, yet still couldnt get a goal, never mind a win.
God it's depressing, just had a look at the betting odds to remind myself how bad things really are and are likely to be for some time to come. Starmer nailed on and RLB 5/1, Nandy 11/1. I had deceived myself in to believing possible futures.
The immediate future for the Labour party is to be an effective opposition. Boris is already dismissing any scrutiny of his Brexit plans as mumbo jumbo. There's no one to hold him to account for the minute because the opposition is too busy eating itself. Once they finaly get back to their day jobs It'll likely be Starmer at the dispatch box, challenging the government with a load of legalese. This has been the approach of the last 3 years and it hasn't worked. I can't see the public being engaged in any way with Starmer at the helm, Boris will be able to steamroller the whole thing through.
We can't look to parliament and the law to hold Boris to account, he'll brush it off. The public needs to keep engaged with the process. The only thing Boris will pay attention to is his popularity with the electorate. (That's why he's called a poulist) He wants to keep the public in the dark as much as possible and just trust him to get it done.
Again, I can only see Lisa Nandy as the one being able to engage with the public on this issue and keep them interested. Though again, I just looked at the odds.
Thornberry is feeling the squeeze between Corbyn's adopted daughter and Starmer. Poor thing
Polls showing Thornberry ahead of RLB with the public, even when limited to Labour voters. She has no chance of getting union backing now though. And the members wouldn’t choose her anyway. Nandy more popular still, outside the “better to be a protest group than compromise in government” ilk.
So… talking of someone Unite and a huge chunk of the membership back, but voters don’t want anywhere near office… Unite’s candidate for Deputy Leader…
https://twitter.com/richardburgon/status/1225134688529981441?s=21
change Labour's rules so that we won't back military action without the members having a vote.
Parody account?
I was reading in this morning's Grauniad that total plum's latest attempt to make Jeremy Corbyn look like a towering political colossus. He's the political equivalent of Alan Partridge, randomly shouting out his ideas for programmes
MONKEY TENNIS!
I bet they love him in the 6th form Momentum common room. The fact that he's Comrade Lens choice for deputy leader tells you everything you need to know about Comrade Len's judgement. His dream ticket of Becky and Ricky as the leadership team really would deliver us a true one party state
Parody account?
You'd hope so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately for the Labour Party he's very much for real, and has his finger on the pulse of the pressing issues at the forefront of voters minds.
What a total cockwomble
Went to my CLP nomination meeting this week. It was interesting (actually worrying is a better word) how a majority of the nearly 40 members who got up to speak were still firmly of the belief that Corbyn was a great leader, that the policies put forward in the manifesto were very popular, and that the only reasons for the election loss were the press and those Labour members and MPs who were in the centre or right of the party who didn't ally themselves to Corbyn, McCluskey and Lansman's 'popular' version of socialism. Some speakers didn't even bother highlighting the benefits of RLB, but just used their time to slag off Starmer with a couple even stating they would leave the party if he was elected.
RLB won the vote for leader, but interesting only got 4 second preference votes compared with Lisa Nandy who came a narrow second but had some 40 second preference votes. Dawn Butler won the nomination for deputy.
It seems that currently in the Labour Part there is more emnity for those in the centre and right of the party rather than the Tories.
Burgon’s got some great ideas.
I look forward to the Tories stealing them and seeing the result of when the membership vote on reinstating the death penalty and national service.
If Richard Burgon's motion gets passed and by some miracle we get a Labour gov't, does that mean we will declare war on Israel? (Backed by the members having a vote obviously)
Dawn Butler won the nomination for deputy
Dawn Butler makes Richard Burgon look sane, reasonable and measured. Corbynism with an added evangelical christian edge. Just what the country is crying out for
It seems that Labour has now given up even the remotest pretence at being an actual political party, let alone a serious contender for government.
It's basically now just a sanctimonious, virtue-signalling facebook group that distributes online petitions about making veganism compulsory, or nationalising Greggs, before nipping over to Twitter to post some death threats to Margaret Hodge.
The Corbynites/sixth formers/PFJ have been quiet of late. It'd be interesting to hear the views from underneath the tinfoil helmets, inside the bunker on how this is all panning out
"none shall vote for us!"
The Long March From Power continues.
We had a discussion about the new leader at a regional union meeting I was at. Plenty in attendance are, unlike me fully involved in the local Labour party so it was a decent debate.
When it came to choosing who to back I stated my case for Starmer as for numerous reasons I think he's the candidate most likely to win back lost votes.
Others then stated their preference and kept referring to not wanting to go back to the days of Blair or swinging to the right (Directed at Starmer). When I explained I was not involved with the party like they were so classed myself as a member of the great unwashed (so more like the people who need winning over) and asked what Starmer has said or done to make them believe he would take the party in that direction non of them could answer. I found that depressing.
RLB won the vote. I personally think she would be the worst option.
RLB won the vote. I personally think she would be the worst option.
Yep, and more because of her personality above anything else. If she wins and Labour don't realise the mistake within a year they will probably lose even more seats in next election.
RLB won the vote. I personally think she would be the worst option.
All the polling with the people who actually matter - the voters - is saying just that
Rebecca Long-Bailey is least popular Labour leadership contender, Evening Standard poll reveals
Just 14% of voters see her as a potential prime minister. Which means she's no doubt nailed on as Corbyns successor. I'm sure that would dip substantially once she's anointed and all the Tory's and the right wing press have to do is point at her and utter two words 'Continuity Corbyn' then just carry on their terrorist sympathiser, antisemitic narrative.
Considering she's been a front bench politician for years, I can't think of a single thing she's ever said or done. So in that respect, very much 'Continuity Corbyn'
on how this is all panning out
And how is it panning out? All I can see is two frontrunners for the leadership and deputy who would be pretty good and a lot of froth about nothing much at all. The only ones paying attention at the moment are those who are still obsessed with Corbyn, the rest of us moved on long ago.
One comment I will make though is it's going on far too long. Why they need 3 months is beyond me. It should all be done and dusted by now.
all the Tory’s and the right wing press have to do is point at her and utter two words ‘Continuity Corbyn’ then just carry on their terrorist sympathiser, antisemitic narrative.
Yup, that's exactly what would happen and she'd be sunk before she began. I don't have much of an opinion of her either way but the quote above is the exact reason I'd never even consider voting for her as leader.
Love him or loathe him if Starmer doesn't get the job.... well its decades before a balance is restored.
I am a working class socialist and firmly believe in looking after people in a fair and equitable way.
I am also a business owner who employs people so i understand that business needs sensible regulation.
I believe in good education, social mobility and freedom of movement. I could never vote for Corbyn or many of his policies, i didn't like Blair from day one.
Me and many like me need the middle ground not Tory light Blair or Comrade Corbyn. Like it or not Starmer represents that and i dont believe a word of his support for Corbynsold policies.... but id he is playing a fast one to beat Seamus and John then brilliant because ideolgy is the death of this country and replicating the dogma of the Tories will never beat the Tories.
So buckle up all you momentum folks, eat the shit sandwich and vote for Starmer and get a parliamentary labour party with some fresh faces (not baggy old trotsky left overs) and fight Johnsons bunch of semi facist arseholes each and every day. They are not invincible they have never been challenged. We need to extrapolate every bit of bad news post brexit and hammer it home.
One other point Labour need someone who can dismantle the Tory approach in Parliament and Starmer can do that, he may not be the eventual answer i dont know but i guess his prep work for prime ministers question time is pretty good...
This whole notion that the voters in the Northern towns somehow 'lent' the Tories their vote is a complete fallacy. It's going to take a humongous effort to win their vote again and that's not nearly enough, they have to find a way of appealing to new voters as well. It's not like there's a load of Lib dem voters they can poach as the Lib dem vote was shockingly low as well. We're doomed.
Saw RLB on Peston the other night talking of how she felt the floor pulled from under her when the results started coming in on election night..The shock for me on election night was how well Labour actually did, I didn't expect their vote to hold up as well as it did in metropolitan areas, I had the Tories down for nigh on a 100 seat majority.
I remember Johnson being in at a press conference with Trump in the US when thw supreme court verdict with regards prorogueing parliament came in and journalists were questioning him about it. Twice Trump interjected on Boris's behalf saying 'just another day in the office'. Then Boris responded, 'well, it's just another day in Parliament actually'.
I knew then and there that Boris was going to get exactly what he wanted, with regards Brexit and any potential forthcoming election. At that point I completely switched off, bowing to the inevitable. It wasn't just the quick wittedness of his response it was how dismissive he was of the whole affair, it was water off a ducks back as far as he was concerned,. Almost as if he was prepared for the verdict, as if he and Cummings had factored in the possibility, recognising how little weight the Supreme Court actually had and knowing the public would see the whole process for the sham it was.
I think Jess Phillips , Lisa Nandy and Ian Murray were the only Labour candidates who recognised this so as such are the only ones with more than half a brain. On that note, how on earth can the Labour party membership not see how Ian Murray is streets ahead of any other candidate in the deputy leader race?
there is more emnity for those in the centre and right of the party rather than the Tories.
T'was ever so. I've been to local meetings back in the early 90s and been spat on for refusing to take some communist leaflet and called tory scum
how on earth can the Labour party membership not see how Ian Murray is streets ahead of any other candidate in the deputy leader race?
Its not really much of a mystery. The present labour party membership elected Jeremy Corbyn not once, but twice. They're presently overwhelmingly endorsing Rebecca Long Bailey (as she promises more of the same, which has been so successful with the electorate), with god-bothering communist Dawn Butler or that comedic village idiot Richard Burgon as deputy leader. Some of them were seriously suggesting Ian Lavery. Just sit and let that sink in for a minute. Ian Lavery as a potential PM?
Everyones talking about Starmer but given the track record of the people who will make the final decision I don't think he's got a hope.
If RLB's name is on that final ballot, she's going to walk it, probably with Richard Burgon as deputy
You have to remember who you're dealing with here. The labour party membership really is that detached from reality. How many more times do they have to demonstrate it?*
* Just this one last time, obviously. After that, the labour party is done. The UK will be a one party state
Trust the bookies binbins
Inkster
Ian Murray?
Architect of the labour / tory non agreession pact that saved May's government?
He is a complete rear end of a cow.
You can hold on to your grudges if you like TJ. Whilst I could sit here looking for some witty riposte with regards pantomime animals I'm beyond that now......but you've pulled my chain, suffice to say RLB and the beast of Burdon would fail the audition for the rear end of a pantomime anything.
Murray knew Labour was heading for a cataclysmic defeat and wasn't scared to say so. Plus he's a ruthless hard nut, a quality I'm looking for from my politicians at the moment. He wouldn't have to fight his way out of a paper bag because you wouldn't get him hiding in one in the first place.
I posted earlier that an alternative thread could be 'New direction for Labour' but realised that was wishful thinking on my part, predicated as it was on a Nandy - Murray type ticket.
I hope you're wrong Binners and Starmer succeeds over RLB, at least then Labour might live to fight another day. If you're right and the lunatics do take over the asylum then the next thread will be along the lines of 'Do you remember the Labour party?' Or maybe someone's already posted that thread on Retro-bike.
For those saying the party has lost it's mind and still has massive support for Corybn:
https://twitter.com/CLPNominations/status/1225569974389026816
"So far, 350 CLPs have nominated candidates to be leader of the Labour Party.
Keir Starmer: 201
Rebecca Long-Bailey: 96
Lisa Nandy: 40
Emily Thornberry: 13""So far, 352 CLPs have nominated candidates to be deputy leader of the Labour Party.
Angela Rayner: 200
Dawn Butler: 49
Richard Burgon: 39
Ian Murray: 37
Rosena Allin-Khan: 27"
Starmer is far far ahead with the traditionally more left wing CLPs (compared to the general membership).
I too agree that Nandy may be a better choice, but lets just try and keep to the facts. The party clearly knows that a big change is needed, and is acting on it.
If it ends up being a combination of ‘boring but across his brief’ Starmer, and ‘laugh off your erudite but condescending questioning style’ Rayner… that is probably the best outcome possible, given the dual requirements of not scaring away existing support, and looking to build on it, and given the list of candidates that put themselves forward.
If it ends up being a combination of ‘boring but across his brief’ Starmer, and ‘laugh off your erudite but condescending questioning style’ Rayner… that is probably the best outcome possible
It's going to be those 2 almost certainly, unless either makes a monumental gaff in the next few weeks.
It’s basically now just a sanctimonious, virtue-signalling facebook group that distributes online petitions about...
Now where does that sound like? On the tip of my tongue like it's almost staring me in the face...
Or maybe someone’s already posted that thread on Retro-bike.
We tend to keep away from politics on RB, leads to too many arguments. 😉