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If the world goes to shit because of climate change and unfettered capitalism I couldn’t really give a **** who the government is, it’s the same result. This year carbon concentrations reached 415ppm. The last time it was that high the world was 3.5c hotter, and they’re still rising. At that temperature the Amazon will be gone, the oceans dead and the ice caps irreversably melting. It’s ok though cos we could have a nice labour government dishing out a bit more money to the poor and telling everyone to recycle more.
Shouldn't you be voting Green?
Seriously.
And yes, I know, FPTP, but the Labour Party is never going to be the Green Party, even if it ought to be.
edhornby
...I’d choose Nandy precisely for the reasons C4 pointed out....
Shouldn't Nandy be disqualified for her enthusiasm for using state violence on voters? ie her endorsement of the Spanish police attacking and badly beating Catalonians at the polling booths.
She's a Nazi, not Labour at all.
‘We should seek to discover the lessons from when, in brief moments in history in places like Catalonia and Quebec, we have managed to go and beat narrow, divisive nationalism with a social justice agenda.’
No mention of endorsing police brutality.
You can only stop Scotland breaking away by the UK government and the rest of the UK State acting and working for the people that live in Scotland, you won’t do so with police action of any kind.
No one on either side of the Scottish Indie debate should be drawing any parallels with Catalonia, really. Not wise.
Shouldn’t you be voting Green?
In pretty much every election where my vote hasn't mattered, I've voted green. I live in a lab-tory marginal though so as you say, FPTP dictates my vote. My politics are much more aligned with the Green Party than labour. That being said though, labour have come a long way on green policies and I think they now understand the scale of the challenge and are moving rapidly towards policies which properly address climate change and sustainability so I'll keep voting for them on that basis.
In pretty much every election where my vote hasn’t mattered, I’ve voted green.
Can anyone spot an issue with that?
In pretty much every election where my vote hasn’t mattered, I’ve voted green.
Can anyone spot an issue with that?
No, can you give us a clue?
Nandys stupid statement about "learning from Catalonia" and " a social justice agenda" to defeat nationalism in Scotland shows how politically naive she is and how little understanding she has of Scotland. Unutterably stupid thing to say.
While yo may not think the substance of what she said was so bad its the lack of political knowledge and nous that it indicates that makes her unfit to lead
Firstly Scotland has been running under a social justice agenda in many ways more radical than anything labour has to offer for a decade or more. Secondly the tactics of the Spanish government against the nationalists has been diabolical
thirdly it just handed the SNP an easy open goal.
Starmer for all his faults is the only possible candidate of the lot of them.
Firstly Scotland has been running under a social justice agenda in many ways more radical than anything labour has to offer for a decade or more. Secondly the tactics of the Spanish government against the nationalists has been diabolical
Agree with every word of this. I was just pointing out that calling Nandy a Nazi, and claiming she supports actions she has not said she supports, was a fist full of bullshit. I said it was unwise to cite Catalonia, and I think she was wrong to… but we can make that point without falsely claiming she is a Nazi and advocates police violence, can’t we?
Its an easy association to make. Catalonia did exactly that - used the full force of the Spanish paramilitary police to break up demos and used draconian anti terrorist legislation against the leaders of the peaceful protests including attempting to extradite the academic who wrote the referendum question and the local chief of police.
the spanish government did not use a social justice agenda to defuse the independence movement. they used classic hard right tactics. so Nandy at best is either ignorant of what happened in catalonia and is happening in scotland combined with a very patronising unionist message. Take a less kind interpretation of her words and yes - she is threatening the scottish independence movement with violence
As a Labour voter and after his election performance it makes my mind boggle that anyone thinks Burgon is the answer to anything positive. I'm sure he's a nice bloke but how can anyone think after seeing him in front of a camera that more exposure would be a good thing?
I'm a Union rep and heavily involved so get to speak to plenty of our members. I refuse to believe that Unite are speaking for their members with these endorsements and so are not doing their job.
Presumably, a savvy leader might have stopped to consider how “we should look to Catalonia”, might play with voters in Scotland before allowing it to tumble out of her mouth. Handing a rod for the SNP to beat her with isn’t an auspicious start for someone looking to replace Corbyn.
Even leaving aside the crass implications, Labour isn’t going to make much progress in Scotland until it gets beyond the visceral hatred of the SNP and stops deluding itself with the lazy belief that ‘nationalism’ in Scotland isn’t substantially to do with self-determination and the desire to protect a more social democratic mindset from the vagiaries of Westminster policy making. A lot of people view the SNP as an imperfect vessel for that aspiration, myself included. Being slurred with the implication that I’m some proto-fascist for wanting these things just reinforces my perception of Labour as hopelessly disconnected from reality - that’s coming from someone who was raised in an extended family that were Scottish Labour Party activists.
Rebecca 10/10 Long Bailey's pitch seems to be based on how principled she is and how she sticks to her principles in a principled way. So it seems that she's got principles and those that disagree with her don't have principles.
So not content with following the mistakes of Corbyn she wants to double down and repeat the mistakes of Hilary Clinton. Effectively saying people that don't agree with her are unprincipled, in other words, deplorable.
She also keeps harping on about the need for a political revolution. I think a lot of people with even the slightest knowledge of history associate revolution with turmoil and bloodshed. Great pitch that.
She does work hard though, so hard that she didn't have the spare time to address anti Semitism apparently.
Power to the people comrades, come the revolution etc. Seems that Boris has Domonic Cummins as a strategist and RLB has recruited the scriptwriter from Citizen Smith (early 80's sit com about a dysfunctional Marxist party for those too young to remember)
Long Baily is simply a diddy. No idea at all. Fits binners caricature rather too well. She has even proven lies about her career on her public record.
draconian anti terrorist laws? Are you pros Indy people out your mind? Catalonia started an illegal referendum(of which it’s results the same pro independence government had control) declared unilaterally its independence and then proceeded to riot. All whilst forgetting Spain is still divided by the civil war we had almost a hundred years ago. The result of this has been an exodus of businesses and money, of which who knows how long it will take to recover. All this after 20 years of regional funded indoctrination.
Oh, and Labour didn't win the argument, it takes two sides to have an argument and the Tories simply ignored Labour in the election. Boris hiding in a fridge is the perfect example, the Tories didn't even have to campaign, they let Labour run their campaign for them.
His hiding in a fridge dominated the news agenda for a couple of days, rather than the media scrutinizing any pertinent issues. It proved to be an excellent strategy for the Tories, pure distraction, like a trawler throwing sardines into the sea, encouraging the media and the left act like seagulls.
Have you noticed how the more people call Trump an orange buffoon the more orange he gets? He makes the insults work in his favour. It wouldn't surprise me if Trumps campaign slogan for the next election isn't MAGA but 'the futures bright, the futures orange.'
baboonz
I suggest you read up on what actually happened in Catalonia.
So much of what you posted is so wrong its hard to know where to start.
draconian anti terrorist laws? Are you pros Indy people out your mind? Catalonia started an illegal referendum
And why was that?
Catalonia did not declare UDI
the Spanish government sent in paramilitary police to stop the referendum. The paramilitary police attacked thousands of people stormed polling stations, removed ballot boxes.
They used anti terrorist legislation and treason legislation to enact draconian sentences on democratically elected leaders who were carrying out their mandate
There was only a police riot. The people were peaceful before the paramilitary police arrived.
YO really need to read up on what actually happened
chestrockwell ^^^ re Burgon, how right you are.
Predictable endorsement of RLB and Burgon by Unite, backed up with commitment to make 'sizeable donation'.
Would be interesting to know what the membership make of that.
I am Spanish, and grew up very close to the region (C.Valenciana), and love the region, so it hits close to home, I wrote 3 different replies specifically, but then realised, I am only going to get more pissed off. I will only reply, the coverage carried out by the British newspapers at the time was incredibly poor, so I hope that wasn't your source of information.
To those asking, why are some people in Catuluna desperate for independence? Its simple, money. The supporters of this movement do not want a part of the income they generate to go to the most disadvantaged areas and would rather keep it to themselves. Many of the top supporters of this movement are wealthy Catalans waiting on being able to dig in more. They've been indoctrinating the region for the past 20 years, changing school content and textbooks in order to achieve this. ....and you thought Brexit was bad. Yes there are other reasons such as regional identity and central government mismanagement(money again), and they are I see the point of anger, since my region too has been hit by questionable central government policies, however an ILLEGAL referundum and unconstitutional unilateral independence declaration(however short this declaration lasted) is not the way.
Why was the referendum illegal? There was no agreement between central government and regional government on how to carry it out.
Loath as I am to drag this away from Scottish independence/nationalism - as its a subject barely mentioned on here, and one we all find endlessly fascinating - this is a really good article in yesterdays Guardian by John Harris.
He is a rare journalist in that he's constantly traveling around the country and gives a non-London centric view of the country which tends to differ quite a bit from the standard. He's been really interesting to read throughout the Brexit process, and this is his take on the Labour leadership and the present state of the party...
Labour is stuck in the last century. Its adversaries have seized the future
Lisa Nandy definitely seems to be the only one who even remotely 'gets it'
That piece does fall into the “be more local” theme of a lot of Labour commentators though… you can see why that is appealing… build up local bases, try and make a difference to people’s lives, worry about being in government later (if ever)… but the reality is that what can be done by locally elected representatives is being curtailed more and more by central Conservative governments crippling councils’ finances, reducing the powers of local bodies by direct funding and running services as if independent companies, and making all the big infrastructure decisions that mayors then just get to be a front for. Labour need power in Westminster to effect change at the local level.
That John Harris article in the Guardian has it bang to rights.
One thing that stood out was the fact that the ethnic minority vote for Brexit was 30%, although they still poll much higher for Labour.
That got me thinking...
With Miliband Labour lost the red tory vote [those who had kept Labour in office for 13 years]
With Corbyn Labour lost their traditional working class heartlands
Who's next I wonder?..... I'm betting Labour hasn't learned it's lesson yet and is assuming that no matter how much worse it gets they can still count on the minority vote.They probably think they can even increase it if they push identity politics even harder. And after all, they would never turn tory would they? Just like why would they vote for Brexit?
There was a John Gray piece in the New Statesman America along similar lines. I posted things on the Bexit thread similar to this and the John Harris article and got slaughtered for it, frequently accused of being a Brexit apologist and reading the gutter press. I've ducked out of that thread [unharmed but quite a lot wiser for it]
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/why-left-keeps-losing
There was a John Gray piece in the New Statesman America along similar lines.
That’s the piece where Gray argues that the youth don’t vote for the right because we’ve made the mistake of educating them too much, yes?
Its often the satirists that get it bang on, and Newsthump absolutely summed up what a totally pointless irrelevance the labour party has become.
Harry and Meghan to run for Labour leadership in last-ditch attempt to shake off media interest
binners
Lisa Nandy definitely seems to be the only one who even remotely ‘gets it’
Which 'it' is she getting?
Is is the bit where she would like to adopt the Spanish technique of using the police to beat voters at the polling booth?
That's the attitude of someone who sees themself as one of the masters, not as a representative.
Is is the bit where she would like to adopt the Spanish technique of using the police to beat voters at the polling booth?
Quit it with repeating the same lies. Thanks.
I think Nandy has it wrong on Scotland (and a great many other things), but stop making things up (or stop repeating made up things). Thanks.
She criticised nationalism in all its forms. What she absolutely did not do is advocate violence of any sort, or endorse sending riot police in. Thats a total fabrication, and by endlessly repeating it while getting increasingly hysterical about it, you're kind of proving her point about the toxicity of nationalism for her
But then I'm sure that the SNP, along with the rest of us, will be looking at the xenophobia and English nationalism that will no doubt be on display on Friday and rightfully point out how divisive and distasteful it is, but then plough on with their own form of nationalism, which is somehow completely different and all very positive and lovely.
All nationalism is divisive and toxic. Full stop!
Now can we get off this subject unless you can come back with the actual statement Lisa Nandy made which apparently endorses these things
You won't be able too, because there isn't one. It never happened. It was hysterically made up, or at the very least twisted beyond all possible recognition, to suit the political agenda of a nationalist party. But apparently thats all fine when the SNP do it, but absolutely vile and unforgivable when UKIP or the Tory's do it.
I think she was daft even going near the subject and what she said was stupid. But there's a world of difference between what she said, and whats since subsequently been claimed that she said. Which is basically utter bollocks.
What was it she said? Something about learning lessons from the Spanish Government and others about how to deal with nationalists in their country in an effort to deal with the SNP. If not imprisonment and riot police, then what successful techniques does she think the Labour Party can learn from the Spanish Govt? I don't think she has suggested any.
What Lisa Nandy said was
"We should look outwards to other countries and other parts of the world where they have had to deal with divisive nationalism and seek to discover the lessons where, in these brief moments in places like Catalonia and Quebec, we have managed to go and beat narrow divisive nationalism with a social justice agenda."
This aspirant to the leadership of the Labour Party was well aware of how things went down in Catalonia, how the voters got beaten bloody, the politicians jailed etc.
If she didn't know what she was saying, does that make her a competent prospect for Labour leadership?
If she didn’t know what she was saying, does that make her a competent prospect for Labour leadership?
This is probably the main thing. Stupidity or ignorance. Neither is a good look
Everything is relative. She ****ed up on that occasion, but otherwise has been talking a lot of sense during this campaign, and that hasn't involved the easy option of telling certain targeted groups of people what they want to hear (unlike the other candidates).
She's challenging the cozy culture set up in the labour party (detailed in the John Harris article posted above) and is telling people to open their eyes as to whats happened. That the huge scale of the defeat means business as usual isn't an option, and drastic change is required.
In contrast, Thornberry and Starmer have said absolutely nothing of note, and Long Bailey has been completely invisible. But then I'm sure she's been very busy politicking behind the scenes with the Len McClusky's, Ian Lavery's, Seamus Milne's and Karie Murphy's so that its all suitably stitched up for her anointing by St Jeremy. Cue wild celebrations in the common room and Tory central office
In other news, Corbyn is on his feet in the commons, further undermining his successor and making their job even harder.
Obviously he headed back to his comfort zone and criticised Trumps proposed peace deal with his usual shouty bit which simply allows Boris to point out his support for Iran, Hezzbollah, Putin etc... which he duly did.
Unlike Tragic 'Row Z' Grandad, when presented with an open goal, Johnson tucks each chance away
Somebody really needs to take Jeremy to one side and let him know the election result and walk him up to the allotment
She ****ed up on that occasion
Ooh. Is that you backtracking?
the huge scale of the defeat means business as usual isn’t an option, and drastic change is required
Except for viewers in Scotland, obviously, where she appears to have learnt nothing. To be fair, neither has Lady Nugee.
Binners
Everything is relative. She ****ed up on that occasion,
It is relative. As one of the people likely to be on the receiving end of her idea of a "social justice agenda" I took it to mean just what she was implying.
She does seem to have been busy deleting that reference though... 🙂
Just found this comment from the USA:
The labour party at present is a total and utter shambles. Any leader will have to prioritise things. They've just lost what people still annoyingly keep referring to as their 'northern heartlands' to the Tory's. I'd be spending my time trying to sort that out first, before it becomes a permanent shift, and they lose even more next time out.
Scotland (rightfully IMHO) rejected Labour years ago as they were offered a far more credible party to vote for. And I don't think those voters are ever coming back. The 'northern heartlands' voters won't be either if the party ****s this leadership election up. Something they seem absolutely hell bent on doing.
My point is that Lisa Nandy is the only candidate for which the penny seems to have dropped. For example, 'Becky' is the MP for Salford, one of the most deprived wards in the country. Yet in her outlook, she's just as 'Islington' as Corbyn (lets talk about veganism and Venezuela, comrade. Oh... and free broadband). Something the 'northern heartlands' comprehensively hoofed up the arse in December. Apparently, according to Becky, they all loved the manifesto up here. Yeah, right...
funny way of showing it Becks. By voting Tory, en masse
They’ve just lost what people still annoyingly keep referring to as their ‘northern heartlands’ to the Tory’s. I’d be spending my time trying to sort that out first, before it becomes a permanent shift, and they lose even more next time out.
Yep and Nandy is a good move in that case. Agree Scotland is lost and not sure what Labour could do to get back the SNP seats.
The Labour voters who actually understand what Labour is about, actually look at the manifesto will support Labour but those willing to switch to Tory because of dislike of leader or pro Brexit are the difficult ones to get as they were mostly voting Labour because that is what people do where they live.
Lisa Nandy definitely seems to be the only one who even remotely ‘gets it’
I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists, not because of the over interpreted comment in an interview, more the likelihood she will start to help the recovery of labour in Scotland
as for Corbyn, he is a caricature lefty protestor, massive issues in the country and leads on the usual subjects.
Meanwhile in Manchester Labour
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/tensions-simmer-manchester-town-hall-17647695
Apparently, according to Becky, they all loved the manifesto up here. Yeah, right…
So what's your point? That the labour party should eschew hummus and skinny lattes and go back to pie and chips, flatcapped northern chip on the shoulder bigotry? I look forward to the day when we can use the word darky and **** again without those do-gooders in 'that' London having a go at me (you still can in the village I grew up in Newcastle), and drive a not fit for the road smoke belching jalopy without those tree-huggerts banging on about it. Because that's what 'northern heartland' culture is, an insular, bigoted, stuck in the past nest of ***** who can't see past the end of their street. Nandy is probably right that the labour party needs to win back these people, but it will turn away millions who don't see hummus and vegans as a threat to their way of life.
One point about those stupid comments from Nandy is the guff about "beat narrow divisive nationalism with a social justice agenda.”
1) the nationalism of the SNP is not narrow and divisive.
2) the SNP already run with a social justice agenda that is in some ways more radical than anything the labour party have done or proposed in generations
Labour need to make ground in Scotland. Apart from anything else IMO the SNP need a decent left wing opposition. In the last decade its the tories that have been the opposition while the labour MSPs have just sat back and sulked.
Making pronouncements that show either no understanding of what is actually happening in Scotland or using false unionist memes to attack the SNP is self defeating
One key thing from recent political histoy in Scotland is we have had a fair number of politicians who ( at least sound like they) are telling the truth as they see it, who do not pretend there are simple answers to complex problems and ( at least appear) honest.
We have got used to this and soundbites simply do not cut it anymore nor do platitudes and ill thought out kneejerk reactions. As a result of the complex voting systems in Scotland and the big independence debate the scots electorate have become more sophisticated and sceptical.
So by saying this Nandy has exposed a huge flaw in her thinking and her political ability. No matter what else she says she has exposed her limitations.
Because that’s what ‘northern heartland’ culture is, an insular, bigoted, stuck in the past nest of ***** who can’t see past the end of their street
Except it isn't is it? Not even remotely. You're as guilty of stereotyping as some Eton toff. Though I suspect there are plenty presently at the top of the labour party who share your aloof contempt.
This is what the rugby league club in Lisa Nandy's Wigan constituency did this morning...
Wigan Warriors confirm Pride Day for Catalans Dragons fixture after Israel Folau signing
How does that fit with your bigoted northerner stereotype, then?
I think that sums up the 'northern heartlands' more to me than your summary.
Yes, those stereotypes of people exist in the north, but they were voting Tory/UKIP/Brexit party anyway. I'd . suggest the majority of labour voters are a lot more thoughtful than that, but simply did not and could not identify with the Corbyn 'Project'
By writing them off as thick racists though, you're doing exactly what those presently at the top of the labour party are doing. Its easier to do that than look to their own failings, so let's do that, eh?
the labour MSPs have just sat back and sulked.
That's not completely fair TJ. A number of them have promoted the Conservative Party as a safe harbour for any British Nationalist voters who want to vote tactically.
I'll tell you what labour could do to gain ground in Scotland:
Split scottish labour off completely from English labour
Start engaging constructively in Holyrood
Develop policies to split the reluctant independence supporters from the SNP
Become a bit more radical
Stop with stupid soundbites
Refuse all offers of "help" from down south
Start being positive instead of SNP baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad all the time.
Stop telling outright lies that are totally transparent
There is a huge number of floating voters in Scotland right now. Folk like me. I am totally repelled by scottish labour. I was a lifelong labour supporter until ten years or so ago. The antics since they lost power in Holyrood have been totally repellent as was their behaviour in the independence referendum
Ah yes scotroutes - the Ian Murray tendency. Actively promoting anti SNP tactical voting on his facebook page ( via proxies). The problem for scottish labour is they have forgotten who the enemy is.
So what’s your point? That the labour party should eschew hummus and skinny lattes and go back to pie and chips, flatcapped northern chip on the shoulder bigotry? I look forward to the day when we can use the word darky and * again without those do-gooders in ‘that’ London having a go at me (you still can in the village I grew up in Newcastle), and drive a not fit for the road smoke belching jalopy without those tree-huggerts banging on about it. Because that’s what ‘northern heartland’ culture is, an insular, bigoted, stuck in the past nest of ** who can’t see past the end of their street. Nandy is probably right that the labour party needs to win back these people, but it will turn away millions who don’t see hummus and vegans as a threat to their way of life.
I knew you would come round....
By writing them off as thick racists though,
https://www.tomforth.co.uk/onintelligence/
In other news, the 'bastard Tory's' just nationalised Northern Rail
Funny old world, eh?
big_n_daft
I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists, not because of the over interpreted comment in an interview, more the likelihood she will start to help the recovery of labour in Scotland
I think most Scottish independence supporters are grateful for her contribution. Every time an English politician comes out with remarks like that it helps our cause.
As for "over interpreted", I think she was flying a kite, and would have run with it if she'd got a favourable response in the heartlands. It's the sort of thing that would appeal to the lost gammon Brexit ex-Labour voters. But that's just my opinion and maybe I'm crediting her with too much intelligence.
Certainly it put her firmly in the Red Tory camp as far as Scotland is concerned and helped drive another nail in Labour's coffin here.
Just got an email off my constituency labour party to say their nomination/endorsement for leader is Lisa Nandy, with Angela Rayner as deputy
Thats one less for Long Bailey. I doubt she'll get the vote of many CLP's, but will be depending on the big unions to stitch it up in her favour
There is no way on earth that the SNP are scared of Nandy.
big_n_daft
I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists
As a Scot, all the candidates scare me - because I don't think any of them have a chance in hell of taking on BJ and the Tories so we'll likely have another 10 years with them in charge of the UK and, amongst other things, trying to dismantle existing devolution.
Apparently, she's the one that worries the Tories the most though
Somewhat unsurprisingly.
They'll all be rooting for Comrade Len and the sixth formers delivering 'Becky'
Maybe Labour's chances in Scotland will be improved by Emily Thornberry. 🙂
You’re as guilty of stereotyping as some Eton toff.
Except I saw it with my own eyes whre I grew up and still see it today pretty much everywhere as soon as you leave the nice cossetted confines of a big city centre or middle class suburb or market town. So who is it the labour party should be targeting if we're ruling out northern racists and city dwelling latte-drinking hipsters? The trouble is if you ask your average market town normal non-racist working class hummus-hating drone what they think of something like climate change, they'll probably tell you it's a load of tree-hugging nonsense, or that it's ok, because they recycle a few tin cans and plastic bottles. If that's the answer then I'm out.
As an aside, and a good example of what I'm talking about, at my work there are now quite a few people of differing sexualities, including at least one non-binary person who fairly often wears what would normally be considered non-gender appropriate dress (ie a bloke wearing a skirt). The young metropolitan hipster types and old hippies like me think it's great, but the salt-of-earth working class lads and lasses from the likes of wigan, bolton etc can't get their heads around it and can often be heard whispering about poofs and trannies. Despite outward appearances, we still have a very long way to go.
So who is it the labour party should be targeting if we’re ruling out northern racists and city dwelling latte-drinking hipsters?
Why do you think all these groups are mutually exclusive?
Most people, despite your derisive and dismissive opinion of them, are more pragmatic than you think.
If you want to get elected then you have to appeal to as broad a spread of people as possible. That's the way democracy works. Labour did it in the recent past and won 3 elections (booo... hiss... the bastards!!! IRAQ!!!) by being more open and pragmatic and less idealogical and uncompromising.
The present labour party leadership couldn't even be bothered trying to appeal to the parts of their own party that they deemed insufficiently 'on message', never mind anyone else
Thus delivering the biggest Tory majority for over 3 decades
It's really not rocket science, is it? Ask Dominic Cummings. Best not ask Seamas or Len though. They still seem to be in denial about how democracy functions. Apparently having a big enough fan club who'll chant your name at a miners gala will get you the keys to number ten. Somebody really should have a word...
Why do you think all these groups are mutually exclusive?
They're as mutually exclusive as the hippy left vegans are. This is the whole point. Whether the honourable working class pie eaters of Wigan agree with all this utopian lefty green stuff or not, they're going to have to get used to it, because it's the only solution to the civilisation threatening problem of climate change and resource finiteness. The drivers of social mobility (healthcare, education, social security etc), are not going to be possible in a world where the climate heats up to dangerous levels and resources start running out.
The people you deride as the 6th form debating society, are the ones who actually understand the problem and the radical actions that are necessary to combat it. RLB understands it, Starmer understands it, McDonnel, Corbyn and pretty much everyone else on the left understands it, but they're just being unrealistic dreamers apparently. What's Nandy's view? I have no idea because she's obsessing about people who have their heads in the sand. Although she's perfectly willing to consider killing millions by launching nuclear weapons as she said today, not to mention sending in the police against those rebellious scots. Pragmatism at it's worst.
Understanding the problem and understanding how to achieve the solution are not the same thing.
understanding how to achieve the solution
Care to elaborate what that is? Because the message from the moderate, grown up non-sixth formers seems to be not to mention it at all for fear of offending the salt of the earth flat cap wearers in the 'northern heartlands'. You can't solve a problem unless you take it on head-to-head with full commitment. Climate change and other relateed issues will not be solved by getting into power by not mentioning it, and then hoping the voters won't notice when you start to make the necessary changes that are required.
Actually I see n evidence anyone understand the fundamental issues - or certanly is able to articulate them in public. I have not seen anything to make me believe they have either the right or left of the party.
You can’t solve a problem unless you take it on head-to-head with full commitment.
Fully committed, and in opposition.
While I agree with you about getting out there and telling the voters the truth about what we need to do, even in the areas where many don’t want to hear it… you need people who can deliver that message and win people over. Which of the current leadership candidates can do that?
It’s also the exact opposite of what you have been banging on about as regards Brexit.
I have not seen anything to make me believe they have either the right or left of the party.
True, but it's all relative, and there is a huge difference between what the left and right are proposing. The green new deal is only a start, yet it's too radical for the 'grown-ups'.
It’s also the exact opposite of what you have been banging on about as regards Brexit.
My point on brexit was that the result of the referendum should be honoured as to ignore it would undermine the democratic system and something much worse would result. I think I was proved right on that in the end. If, god forbid, we had a referendum on tackling climate change, then I'd say the same thing. But clearly having that referendum would be an increadibly stupid thing to do.
So, if we had a had an “incredibly stupid referendum”, and the result was narrowly “let the world burn”, but some key Labour seats had strong support for “world burning”, because “those green elites talk down to us”, or just to “send a message to London”, you’d expect labour to advocate for the world burning?
Anyway, which of the candidates look up to the job of convincing non-Labour voters of the importance of urgent action on climate change, and get them to vote Labour to achieve that action?
So, if
Completely hypothetical and pointless question. The difference with brexit is that it wasn't a hypothetical situation. Besides, I don't think you can compare a civilisation-level threat with membership of a trading bloc, they're at oppositee ends of the importance spectrum.
which of the candidates look up to the job of convincing non-Labour voters of the importance of urgent action on climate change, and get them to vote Labour to achieve that action?
I haven't changed my mind. Starmer is the only feasible option, hopefully with RLB as shadow chancellor.
How does that fit with your bigoted northerner stereotype, then?
Pot Kettle black.
The whole of 2019 you used stereotypes for momentum, lefties, Corbynistas etc.
In fact you ran your own campaign.
The left but not left party
Labour are polling dreadfully even with Keir as the favourite.
It's about more than the leader boys and girls.
Thats one less for Long Bailey. I doubt she’ll get the vote of many CLP’s, but will be depending on the big unions to stitch it up in her favour
The biggest union is backing Starmer, not that I expect you to take notice of a fact that contradicts your prejudices.
Kelvin -
I think he was trying to say that Universities used to teach you how to think, now they teach you what to think.[A bit like Momentum really.]
The huge increase in University intake since the early 90's has seen numbers almost double. This was achieved in part by introducing ever increasing fees. The cumulative effect has been to see middle class numbers increase whilst working class numbers have tumbled to a trickle.
Labour has become a party for the educated middle classes, seems they're losing their share of the working class vote though, irrespective of age group.
So you are right, you can educate students into voting for the left. If you don't vote for Labour you must be stupid or un-educated. If only we could send everyone to university, [or re-education camps] then it'd be a Labour landslide every time. .
It’s about more than the leader boys and girls
Ssshhhhhh.... don’t tell Reg. he still thinks people sing his name at festivals, bless him...
Is someone going to tell him the election result at some point?
You’re right though. Probably best not to have a leader that all but 20 of your own MPs and most of the the countries population don’t think of as a useless, terrorist-sympathising, 70’s throwback, antisemitic old communist
It’s about the policies though comrade
FREE BROADBAND FOR EVERYBODY!!!!
Highest membership EVA! IDST
576000 members
The reason why Nandy is the greatest threat to the SNP isn't because she has an in depth understanding of Scottish politics. The reason is that she has done a lot of work looking at the issues around towns. Scotland outside the Central belt is essentially towns. Population density is low and distance from power both physically and psychologically large. Labour in Scotland needs to sort itself out and someone pro Union, who wants to level up and has a focus centred on the issues of place can only help.
My view is that she is a listener, a underestimated intellect and more left wing than often portrayed by those who seek to diminish her.
As a potential leader she is a rough diamond, she lacks the polish of Starmer and Thornberry, body language, posture and delivery all need work. She lacks "presence" they have and the resources of Long Bailey.
Politically she has been on a journey and I don't think it's stopped. A few years in opposition should see a polished performer with credible policies (subject to conference hospital passes).
Long Bailey is digging a big hole for herself and sinking fast
Starmer (like a lot of labour councillors who were heads of children's services) can't hide from the CSE issue when head of the CPS
Thornberry is toxic outside London and probably won't make the ballot
Of the candidates Nandy fits "least worst", but there are more positives going for her than that style of thinking would indicate.
Finally the best bit is that she never plays the BAME female tokenism card. Which is another point of PRIDE for Wigan and hopefully carefully observed by the metropolitan classes exemplified by TJ etc
Or maybe not because she is now of the North West and therefore the SE bubble fanboys such as Raybanwomble will just write her off as thick, as anyone who isn't in London must be
Big_n_daft
Yep.
Starmer may have the 'experience' but he's boring and got too much baggage. The best he could do is plug some holes in a sinking ship.
The best bit about Nandy is the best bit you referred to.
Labours general playing of identity politics is a form of divide and not rule. splitting people into groups just corrals people into a place where the tories can pick them off, group by group. It's in this respect I think Nandy is the most intelligent of the bunch.
Age doesn't matter, she'll grow up in the next five years, I don't think the others will.
Nandy is zero threat to the SNP simply because she has no understanding of the issues and thus cannot do anything to improve the position of the labour party in Scotland. the key thing to improve the labour partys standing in Scotland is to make it a separate entity to the English party able to formulate their own policies tailored to the scottish situation
zero threat
no understanding of the issues and thus cannot do anything
It’s great to see you’ve left your binary-ness behind these days teeJ and that it’s all nuance for you now.
Labour are polling dreadfully even with Keir as the favourite.
It’s about more than the leader boys and girls.
Seeing that there is no new leader and Labour have not changed in any way the polling with still be dreadful. Get a decent leader and give it 6 months for people to see the leader and the actions the leader has taken (with shadow cabinet, policy etc,.) and see what the polls do.
Its true tho. anyone with the slightest understand of Scotland would not have made that statement especially the bit about fighting nationalism with a social justice agenda - simply because the SNP run a social justice agenda! so wrong on diagnosis, wrong on treatment. Obviously wrong on both.
She may play well in England but until the labour party actually face up to what is happening in Scotland and produce some real policies tailored to the situation they will remain dead in Scotland.
SNP baaaaaaaaad / Union Good has been a disaster for them. More of the same will not change anything and thats all she offered.
I am gutted by the way labour have behaved in Scotland. I supported labour for 40 years
The labour party is finished in Scotland, whoever the leader is. Why? Because there is a credible non-tory party to vote for, which the majority of people are clearly happy to do. A lot of voters in England look enviously at that option. I know I do.
If the labour party in Westminster had any sense, instead of attacking the SNP, which is just bloody stupid and counter-productive, they'd be looking to what the SNP are doing right and learning the lessons to try and appeal to a broader cross-section of voters in the rest of the country.
Minus the nationalism obviously, because despite your assertion that this is a nice, cuddly, inclusive sort of nationalism, ALL nationalism is inherently toxic. The clue's in the title.
A lot of voters - indeed, the majority - are inherently anti-tory, but held their noses and voted for them, or didn't vote at all because the labour party, in its present form, is such an electoral basket case. Utterly rudderless and ineffectual, mired in a hopelessly outdated idealogical backwater, with clearly incompetent people at the helm (not to mention the communists behind the scenes), delivering a manifesto which was unbelievable, fantastical money-tree based nonsense (which the voters duly delivered their verdict on).
Only one of the present crop of leadership candidates has even acknowledged that, let alone shown a desire to address it.
One of them gave it ten out of ten and actually just stated 'our policies were very popular with voters'. Erm.... I can see a problem with that, 'Becky'...
And she's apparently the favoured candidate of those at the top of the party and 'the membership' as she has clearly stated she wants to deliver more of the same.
Unbelievable.
The labour party in Scotland is not finished at all. They could do plenty to recover their position. The first step needs to be separation from the english party. The reasons for their decline up here are not rooted in the same issues as the english party.
The main issues are that they have forgotten who the enemy is, their utilisation of the Bain principle and their sulky behaviour since they lost power
Agree Scotland is lost and not sure what Labour could do to get back the SNP seats.
Working with the SNP rather than against would be a good start. Stop the petty nonsense of voting down policies just because it wasn't theirs (like the renationalisation of Scotrail) at all levels of government. Come up with a credible alternative to independence (it's not like they didn't give us devolution so why not just go all out with Home Rule for everyone).
I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists, not because of the over interpreted comment in an interview, more the likelihood she will start to help the recovery of labour in Scotland
I have nothing to counter this with other than ROFL.
Labour need to make ground in Scotland. Apart from anything else IMO the SNP need a decent left wing opposition. In the last decade its the tories that have been the opposition while the labour MSPs have just sat back and sulked.
This. Say what you like about them, the Tories are at least competent and try to hold the SNP to account, I honestly can't remember the last time Labour did anything of note. Probably Gordon Brown in 2014 and he wasn't even an MSP.
Most people, despite your derisive and dismissive opinion of them, are more pragmatic than you think.
Yeah, like that time they voted for Corbyn anyway because despite it all it was still in their better interests. And like that time we rejected the Leave EU case as it was deomonstrably not in our best interests to go down that dark path.
Oh, wait...
A lot of voters – indeed, the majority – are inherently anti-tory, but held their noses and voted for them, or didn’t vote at all because the labour party, in its present form, is such an electoral basket case.
Something something pragmatism something
The reason is that she has done a lot of work looking at the issues around towns. Scotland outside the Central belt is essentially towns.
So she's basically no more than a provincial councillor? Excellent, that's just the sort of heavyweight credentials we've been looking for.