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It doesn’t really matter what a handful of people on this thread think. None of us have a clue who would go down best with the public. The policies are largely democratic so would be similar under any leader so the key thing is getting the leader the public want/will think is good.
I like this to a point - but has to be reconciled with the membership.
This is all actually a good thing - a few more members is great and more discussion and democracy of the Labour's future is fine with me.
No love for Clive Lewis then?
I like the bloke.
No love for Clive Lewis then?
Absolutely, but the cruel truth is that this massively racist country will never vote for a black leader.
Watching Marr this morning it's clear who the front runner is. Phillips was a complete car crash. Starmer has a job to do on brexit though. He wants to draw a line under it, but his opponents are not going to let him. Also Marr is a shockingly bad interviewer who barely conceals his contempt for anyone who isn't a tory.
I'm curious as to why RLB is so quiet and hasn't officially entered the race yet. Either they think the backing from the big unions means it's already in the bag, or second thoughts? I wonder whether she really doesn't want it and is being pushed into it? I can almost see Lavery stepping in as the Corbynite candidate.
Absolutely, but the cruel truth is that this massively racist country will never vote for a black leader.
I'm torn.
I know someone I trust who has worked closely with him and can't speak highly enough of the guy.
Are we really more backward than America in this respect?
My heart would love to think we've moved on.
My head says we're going backwards.
We are not as backward as America no, but then America is incredibly backward in matters of race.
I also like Clive Lewis but I don't think he is not someone who would win over the public.
Any clever party would already be doing that analysis as part of the candidate selection process. No could getting a brilliant leader internally for the Labour party if the public hate them.
despite my earlier post saying i’d never be a member, I just joined up
With those iron principles the Labour party's future is assured.
Rayner has now declared candidacy for deputy leader - but still nothing from RLB; does that suggest second thoughts on her part or the current leadership?
Phillips was a complete car crash.
I've zero love for Marr - but her response on 'rewinding' Brexit would be the death knell for her.
(Although I think she's changed her tune again from what I read this morning.)
I think Rayner has already said she’s backing RLB… looks like they are timing her own announcement carefully… presumably with a eye to who the unions will refuse to nominate first.
As for Phillips, if saying that if Brexit turns out to be disaster than Labour could back joining the EU is so controversial, I don’t see how any leader is going to successfully navigate that kind of questioning. To be honest, the most practical answer is “the other nations will never accept us being full members, with all our special opt outs, again… a close relationship without veto or formal voting rights is all they can really offer us in future. As it happens, an economic rather than political closeness is pretty much what the British public seem to want as well.”
Clive Lewis… I like the bloke.
So do I. But, other than the obvious problem about England&Wales voters already noted, he does have a habit of using language that only appeals to people who already identify with being “of the left”, he doesn’t seem to know how to speak to the nation as a whole.
forgot my NYR for a mo then,
Are we really more backward than America in this respect?
My heart would love to think we’ve moved on.
My head says we’re going backwards.
I think you are bang on. I don't think a black person would stand a chance atm of winning an election as Labour leader. Too easy to cast as unpatriotic, just as Corbyn was.
Has Rebecca Long Bailey been locked in the shed on the allotment?
Absolutely, but the cruel truth is that this massively racist country will never vote for a black leader.
I disagree
The first BAME PM will be a conservative, probably within 20years
(Based on 5-10 years of Johnson, a term or tow for labour and the conservatives having that churn of leaders as they did with Howard/Hague/IDS etc)
but still nothing from RLB
I think she's confirmed she's standing, but hasn't officially launched yet. Either she's taking it for granted or there's going to be some sort of massive fanfare with a barnstorming speech, video etc which she can use as an opportunity to distance herself from Corbyn without putting off the lefties.
As for Phillips, if saying that if Brexit turns out to be disaster than Labour could back joining the EU is so controversial, I don’t see how any leader is going to successfully navigate that kind of questioning.
FFS man give it up. Even if brexit is an unmititgated catastrophe, we're not rejoining. It shouldn't even be talked about let alone proposed as a future policy.
We are not as backward as America no, but then America is incredibly backward in matters of race.
I'd say America is quite heterogeneous - some areas are very racist but black people (even black women!!) have held high office.
Thanks for the selective quoting Dazh. I hope I made it clear that, in my opinion, we’re never going to be a member state of the EU ever again.
The only answer any potential leader should give to a question on rejoining is to 'No'. It's as simple as that really. Even Starner seems to have learnt that lesson and he's the strongest remainer.
Has Rebecca Long Bailey been locked in the shed on the allotment?
I think Jess might have the key. And even if she does escape - I think Jess might be ready to knife her in the front as she escapes.
It’s as simple as that really.
Nothing is ever that simple. Who knows what instability might hit the UK (and the EU) in future. Rejoining looks completely off the table to me… but I’m not looking to be PM, I can happily box myself into a corner, and then change my mind as the future unfolds… political leaders have to be far more careful of such absolute positions.
If they choose RLB they are finished. My wife, who is distant from the various leadership contenders (who there are, their history), took one look at her and thought she had come in from the HR dept. Then she heard her speak and it was all over.
Kerley and Kelvin do you have to post so close together my old-man brain can't seperate the opinion. 🙂
Nothing is ever that simple.
The question is not simple, but the answer is (even if it's not true)
Dazh - RLB has said nothing more committal than she's considering standing; has publicly stated her support for Rayner as deputy leader.
If RBL does stand and supports Rayner for deputy, does that leave Burgon out in the cold? Let's hope so.
As for the other deputy candidates....Dawn Butler - I've yet to hear her say anything either intelligent or intelligible; Khalid Mahmood - don't know anything about him so Google tells he is ant-Blairite and member of comrade len's union.
Poor quality field with Rayner the best of a bad bunch.
RLB has said nothing more committal than she’s considering standing; has publicly stated her support for Rayner as deputy leader.
Just a collection of vacuous, meaningless platitudes. Its even accompanied by a photo of some miners
Does the Labour leader have to be a currently elected Labour MP?
Binners - RLB's recent use of 'transformative' reminds of a dalek '....transformative, transformative....'
It's a wordy article but says nothing.
Why am I am not surprised?
Then she heard her speak and it was all over.
I've said from the start RLB is the wrong choice for the left. By any measure, and especially after her speech today, Rayner is the better candidate. I'm sure even RLB knows that so I can only assume that the only reason Rayner isn't standing is because she doesn't want to, probably because she thinks she's better placed to step in after the next election. If that's the case then fair enough but it's a massive gamble as many in the party may not thank her for not stepping up when she was needed.
Just a collection of vacuous, meaningless platitudes.
Has she been taking lessons from Jess Phillips?
Just a collection of vacuous, meaningless platitudes.
Well, "get Brexit done" seemed to work, so maybe vacuous meaningless platitudes are what's required?!
And right there is your problem. The labour party just doesn't get it. The genius of 'Get Brexit Done' and 'Take Back Control' as political messages?
They are many things. Meaningless platitudes they most certainly are not
By contrast, the labour 'message' was a sprawling, rambling incomprehensible mess. The Tory's was 3 words. Did you miss which one delivered a thumping great majority?
No, I just missed out what they actually meant.
By contrast, the labour ‘message’ was a sprawling, rambling incomprehensible mess. The Tory’s was 3 words. Did you miss which one delivered a thumping great majority?
How dare Labour not distill Brexit down to a soundbite.
There wasn't ever a simple solution for Labour. Labour's position reflected the complexity of the split in the party, the electorate and the MPs. It was nevery going to be resolved. Even now I still argue with a Brexit Party candidate that she thinks it was simple - democratic vote and all.
Yet on here we have several thousand posts arguing it out.
Why would there be anything remotely simple about it?
(Besides this started years ago - when the term "Brexit" was first coined there was nothing on the "Remain" side that had that power.)
'Get brexit done' wasn't a meaningless platitude, it was a very simple and direct expression of the frustration with the efforts by some to ignore the 2016 referendum. It's a far cry from a lot of the stuff coming from Phillips, and disappointingly Nandy, which essentially amounts to 'being honest' and 'being better' so that people can 'trust us'. Anyone from Emma Goldman to Enoch Powell could sign up to those values. I'm all for simple messages, but there has to be something behind them, otherwise the public will see them for what they are.
How dare Labour not distill Brexit down to a soundbite.
But they took the polar opposite approach. Completely scattergun. It was free broadband for everyone one day, Waspi women pension payments the next, Nationalising cheese the next, free kittens for every household the day after. Multi-billion pound spending commitments thrown about like confetti
Totally unfocussed, incoherent and unbelievable. Hardly surprising when you look at the collection of clowns responsible for it. I've seen cans of tinned fruit with more political and media savvy.
That needs to change, fast. Everyone's going on about the leaders job, but everyone at the top of the party responsible for this debacle should be history already. A complete clearout of the millionaire Marxists.
But they took the polar opposite approach. Completely scattergun. It was free broadband for everyone one day,
Agree with that, on the surface.
But if you read the whole of the maneifesto it wasn't really scattergun - it was pretty joined up with only the Waspi women being thrown in last minute.
Totally unfocussed, incoherent and unbelievable. Hardly surprising when you look at the collection of clowns responsible for it
Some of it was - not all.
Look it took 18 years to rid the Tories last time.
I think it's very easy to criticise what has gone wrong here but it was obvious early on that Labour were going to be on the back foot and I very much doubt a change of leader would've ultimately made any difference in the end.
And to be honest - a bit of loyality might have bloody well helped.
However we are where we are. We need to move on.
Lesson actually learned: Respect the electorate even if you don't agree with them.
Does the Labour leader have to be a currently elected Labour MP?
I wouldn't think so, they will however have to be to be PM.
And to be honest – a bit of loyality might have bloody-well helped.
No MP has ever voted against his own party more than Jeremy Corbyn. He was never going to get loyalty, simply because.... well... does that need explaining?
And I'm sure he'd have got more if it hadn't been so glaringly obvious how completely useless he was
That needs to change, fast. Everyone’s going on about the leaders job, but everyone at the top of the party responsible for this debacle should be history already. A complete clearout of the millionaire Marxists.
Well we will see.
I prefer Marxist millionaires to Neoliberal millioanaires. 😉
As for Brexit, really any potential leader should can state they were opposed to it if they were, but accept it's happening and concentrate on ensuring the Government manages the best relationship with the EU for the sake of the majority, not the Tories and their Mates. Trying to win favour with some Unicorn idea we can unwind it now is insulting.
It's still a very open wound of course, but we're probably 5 years away from another GE, Brexit won't be forgotten by then, but I suspect we're been resigned to the new normal by then and won't want to go through all this again.
No MP has ever voted against his own party more than Jeremy Corbyn. He was never going to get loyalty, simply because…. well… does that need explaining
?
That's because the majority of the time he was voting against the Tories when Labour were voting with them.
No MP has ever voted against his own party more than Jeremy Corbyn.
I don't think parliamentary votes are what rone was talking about. I don't ever recall Corbyn, McDonnell or Abbott calling Tony Blair a racist like many on the labour right did about Corbyn. That's the sort of mud that sticks.
Lesson actually learned: Respect the electorate even if you don’t agree with them.
This x 1000, even if it means some people (not you I might add) think you're a far right sympathiser 😉 At least Starmer seems to have learnt this and accepted it. I expect the focus of his first year as leader will be humble pie on brexit whilst ensuring the tories are reminded about their unachievable promises.
That’s because the majority of the time he was voting against the Tories when Labour were voting with them.
No.. thats utter cobblers, as you well know. He constantly voted against the labour government.
Him then demanding everyone then be loyal to him is like me demanding everybody else needs to go vegan, while a I'm tucking into a steak bake
The fact that he could get the words out prove how devoid of self-awareness he is, and how he doesn't 'get' irony
?
That’s because the majority of the time he was voting against the Tories when Labour were voting with them.
Take the blinkers off Rone, honestly.
It's over, the Socialists had two goes at a GE against a terrible Tory government and they lost, they lost when people were more enthused about politics in generations. They will never win an election in the UK.
Him then demanding everyone then be loyal to him
Can you provide any evidence of this so called 'demand'? I don't think Corbyn ever demanded loyalty to himself or the leadership. The only loyalty he expected was to the party, and I think it's obvious that the likes of Hodge, Mann, Austin etc didn't do that. Even after the failed coup he brought some of rebels (Starmer for example) back in to the shadow cabinet. He also asked many of his blairite critics (including Cooper and Miliband) to be in his first shadow cabinet, but they refused. It may not fit with your stalinist charicature, but Corbyn never demanded blind loyalty from anyone, only their honest engagement and collaboration.
He also asked many of his blairite critics (including Cooper and Miliband) to be in his first shadow cabinet, but they refused. It may not fit with your stalinist charicature, but Corbyn never demanded blind loyalty from anyone, only their honest engagement and collaboration.
Did he ever advise the electorate to vote for the Tories?
Loyalty to the membership who voted him in.
Having fun with words… ultimately… he was always going to have problems with “loyalty” with his MPs, when…
- Most didn’t think he was up to the job, and voted accordingly in a vote of no confidence… but were told to suck it up by the wider Labour movement.
- He listened to his advisors, including one with no history of supporting the Labour Party, instead of his elected MPs.
- He has a history of voting against and talking out against previous party leaders (good on him for that, but it was always likely to result in a rebellious parliamentary party when he took on a role at the top).
The new leader needs to sack the current advisors, and needs the support of a large swath of MPs from the outset. Giving a life long Communist the ear of the leader will not result in an electable party. Forcing a leader on the MPs that they can’t work with isn’t going to lead to electoral success. Having a leader who has rebelled against former leaders is no big deal really, compared to the other points… it’s a bit of a red herring… indeed, a history showing an “independent spirit” worked well for a Corbyn for a while, until he’d been leader long enough for the focus to shift to his performance as leader.
the Socialists had two goes at a GE against a terrible Tory government and they lost, they lost when people were more enthused about politics in generations. They will never win an election in the UK.
They will one day.
And says nothing much at all, whilst trying to absolve herself of any role in the factional infighting she tells everyone to not do do. I mean I agree, but it's a bit like a crack dealer telling kids to 'just say no!'. On this evidence she's made a good decision, and to her credit has understood something that many of her fellow travellers haven't.
Hopefully the rest of them will retreat in a similar fashion or just keep their mouths shut, especially if it's to support/condemn any particular candidate.
Giving a life long Communist the ear of the leader will not result in an electable party.
Johnson making an anarchist his cheif of staff hasn't exactly done him any harm. Maybe we need more 'extremists' in positions of influence?
The new leader needs to sack the current advisors, and needs the support of a large swath of MPs from the outset. Giving a life long Communist the ear of the leader will not result in an electable party. Forcing a leader on the MPs that they can’t work with isn’t going to lead to electoral success. Having a leader who has rebelled against former leaders is no big deal really, compared to the other points… it’s a bit of a red herring… indeed, a history showing an “independent spirit” worked well for a Corbyn for a while, until he’d been leader long enough for the focus to
shift to his performance as leader.
Very well said. At the start I liked Corbyn for exactly the reason you state. I however soon realised he was useless at leading a party, dealing with media and so on. Unfortunately it was too late then. Which is why I really do think they need a probationary period for whoever they select.
None of the candidates have a chance of uniting the Labour party, let alone the country
Hopefully the rest of them will retreat in a similar fashion or just keep their mouths shut
The purge continues.
Maybe we need more ‘extremists’ in positions of influence?
Fun comment. That doesn’t change the fact that communists and others on the far left are not the people to turn to for advice if you want to get the Labour Party into government in the UK.
RLB's now confirmed.
So she and Rayner will each lobby for the other.
Can't see any of the leadership contenders lobbying for Burgon as deputy.
Butler is poor quality.
Mahmood....?
We need more and better quality candidates for deputy.
Rayner has deputy sewn up… that’s the obvious plan behind her pinning her flag to the role so early, when others were talking about her trying for leader, no?
Typical Guardian bias against RLB.
Classic.
Typical Guardian bias against RLB.
Morning comrades. A question for you.... Can you pinpoint the exact stage that the Guardian, the Independent and Channel 4 news joined the the BBC and all the rest of the right-wing media in their conspiracy against the left?
It just seems that the Guardian giving RLB a full page editorial to launch her leadership bid doesn't seem to confirm their bias against her, to me?
Does it to you. Well... clearly it does. Can you explain why?
Feel free to reply from either inside or outside the bunker. Tinfoil helmet optional.
You may have missed the joke. i.e. that Long Bailey is Britains worst ever rapist and has also launched a wildlife disaster in Australia. Or it could read like that with a few movements of commas.
Eh?
not had the morning coffee yet?
explicit comma relocation:
"Britain's worst ever rapist, Long Bailey, launches bid and an unfolding wildlife disaster in Australia."
Its a good job it was in the Grauniad - a publication that has such an impeccable reputation for grammar, punctuation, spelling and prof-reading 😉
The current woes of the Labour Party have you in a permanent state of rant-readiness, Binners. 🙂
Its not just the labour party. I'm like that about pretty much everything at the moment fella 😉
You may have missed the joke. i.e. that Long Bailey is Britains worst ever rapist and has also launched a wildlife disaster in Australia. Or it could read like that with a few movements of commas.
I just saw it as a joke on the column layout.
Binrade reading too much into it.
Paranoid bunker mentality will do that.
Listening to RLB, her pitch is 'Jeremy was right about everything. The only reason we lost the election was because he was unfairly treated by the press'?
Brilliant! The next election is in the bag
.... for the Tories
I haven’t read her campaign launch piece in the Tribune yet (just like 99.99% of voters).
Sounds like it can be summed up in four words
"more of the same"
The 'logic' seems to be that in their hearts the whole electorate were and all massive enthusiasts for Corbynism and socialism, but they wouldn't vote for it because Rupert Murdoch said Jeremy was in the IRA. So if Jeremy leaves and we get that woman from HR in to say the same thing, we'll win with a landslide
Flawless!
Listening to RLB, her pitch is ‘Jeremy was right about everything. The only reason we lost the election was because he was unfairly treated by the press’?
I find RBL really hard listen to regardless of what she's saying. After a few minutes her words just sort of wash over me. I think John Crace said something similar in a podcast last month.
Is it just me?
I guess they're banking on appealing to members first (to become leader), then go for the electorate later.
Thing is - as a member, I'm now looking for someone who will appeal to the electorate. RLB isn't it.
I'd love it to be Clive Lewis from a personal point of view, but trying to predict who will appeal and who will be easy to dismiss isn't easy among the choice given so far.
RBL
Rebecca Bong Lady?
I find RBL really hard listen to regardless of what she’s saying. After a few minutes her words just sort of wash over me. I think John Crace said something similar in a podcast last month.
Is it just me?
Its not just you
She's from the same mould as Corbyn. He always sounded like a photocopier salesman at a conference in the East Midlands explaining, just after lunch, to a bored, sleepy audience the latest developments in toner cartidges.
She's exactly the same. A completely charmless, charisma-free-zone with all the soaring oratory skills of a fridge freezer. After a couple of sentences, its like listening to the teacher off Charlie Brown as you go sleepy-bo-bo's
Rebecca Bong Lady?
I need more caffeine.
Just read her Tribune piece. She won't be getting my vote but I'm sure the Corbyn fan club will love her.
Wrong-Daily is unelectable. Obviously Labour lost beacuse they weren't Left enough and she is the natural continuity candidate. She seldom comes across well on QT despite multiple visits and clearly needs presentation training (ala Margaret Thatcher). When will they realise that when you elect a joke candidate, you get... well a joke, obvously.
At least Starmer has the apparent debating ability to hold the government to account and is reasonably appealing to the middle voters. Thta makes him the most credible opposition leader. Much of that will be to hold the Government's feet to the Brexit fire. Of course the party members won't want that.
I despair of when I'll next vote Labour to be honest.
Bin - you know how you like to talk about car crash interviews. Your favourite is coming apart at the seams.
https://twitter.com/MomentumCV/status/1214486239262453760
Sympathetically for you I do hate those two doing the IVs.
Maybe being leader isn't as easy as you think?
Is it just me?
No it's not. She'd be good in a policy implementation role, but not on sales. Her policy priorities of a green new deal and being unashamedly pro-immigration are exactly as they should be. Hence why I think she should be shadow chancellor, in the McDonnell mould.