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Keir Starmer must be favourite?
I'd have to agree with that. I reckon it'll be Thornberry though.
David Millibad.
I want Lammy
I think Labour could do with a new Leadership, not just JC.
Create a whole new prospect for the lost traditional voters.
What are the implications of any boundary changes on what labour need to achieve to get into government?
No chance.
There was a fella on the TV saying they have to keep the faith in the direction they're going and just be clearer on Brexit.
It'll be anther left winger. And they'll once again get smashed out in the last election.
The reanimated corpse of Jimmy Saville will probably end up being the leader.
Last night Labour lost by a landslide to a Tory leader with a negative approval rating who was leading a government that has endured nine long years of lurching from one embarrassing crisis to another. In the last election Labour lost to an equally unpopular leader.
Any other Labour leadership since (and including) Kinnock would have won landslides in 2017 and last night.
The one thing that could have come out of last night's result was Momentum could have held up their hands and quit to save the Labour party. They didn't, they're staying.
So the next leader will be Long-Bailey or Raynor and there will be no substantial policy change.
Momentum have failed to score against an open goal twice. Time to hand the party back to grown-ups.
EDIT: Damn it, lunge said it better than me and in a couple of lines. 🙁
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That's why we're in this mess
What are the implications of any boundary changes on what labour need to achieve to get into government?
Think it is widely accepted that the changes are detrimental to Labour and Scotland so you can be sure that Boris will get them done as they are oven ready
Binners?
Momentum have failed to score against an open goal twice. Time to hand the party back to grown-ups.
I do hope they can do just that. The image problem with the Labour party has been quite obvious to most people. They did have an open goal, they ran a pretty good campaign I thought, they had the backing of a number of Tories, and yet still... They've already overstayed their welcome.
Keir Starmer must be favourite
He's put down some sterling performances in the HoC, but what's he like with the general public?
Labour really need to think long and hard about this one. They've had 3 crap leaders in succession now.
Labour were smashed in their traditional, Leave-voting heartlands. Any new leader will have to find a way of re-connecting with that base or they will be in permanent opposition. I don't think the answer lies in electing a metropolitan remainer.
#Burgon4Laeder
My 2p, they've got 2 choices.
1) Carry on with the Democratic Socialist mantra with a new face. Corbyn has already sold 1 lost election as a win and in the face of an absolute hammering last night as "we've changed the face of British Politics" They'll appoint John McDonnell, Diane Abbott or maybe Rebecca Long-Bailey - staunch Socalists with the usual 'with us or against' attitude. They'll spend the next 5 years (or at least until Boris ****s it all up) only engaging with people like them and hoping and praying that another 10 million card carrying Socialists will be created and lose again.
2) Regroup and change direction with a Social Democratic Leader and Policies with someone like Keir Starmer or Yvette Cooper. IMO with the Tories lurching to the right, they shouldn't lurch to the left.
Personally I think the latter is far more electable, and history backs that up, but the Labour Party are now full of ideologists who'd rather lose, keep their principles and change nothing, than be accepting of other peoples views and change things for the better.
As I keep saying, they first need a leader that is popular with the public (personality wise). Then that leader needs a good slogan for next election.
It will be very different in 5 years though as "get brexit done" will clearly not be a factor and people will have realised than getting brexit done has made **** all difference to their lives after all. Need to get to one key point that majority will back.
be clearer on Brexit.
Why? Brexit's finished. It can't be stopped now. Boris' deal will pass parliament and we leave next month.
****
I don’t think the answer lies in electing a metropolitan remainer.
There are no remainers anymore, it’s done.
You’re really looking at what type of post EU leader will be able to win.
2) Regroup and change direction with a Social Democratic Leader and Policies with someone like Keir Starmer or Yvette Cooper. IMO with the Tories lurching to the right, they shouldn’t lurch to the left.
Centrist remainers? I know it's a popular view that this should be Labour's direction, but surely the dismal performance of the Liberal Democrats - offering precisely that political position - should give some pause for thought.
Well if the Centrists are right about personality being the issue - if we elect an 'agreeable' leader then with Brexit being on it's way Labour should romp home...
Keep (tweak) the policies but change the leader.
There are no remainers anymore, it’s done.
You’re really looking at what type of post EU leader will be able to win.
Agreed, it's over, we lost. As far as Brexit goes now, with the numbers he's got we might as well appease Boris so he doesn't change his mind and crash us out for shits and giggles.
Moverover, we'll be out, out by the next election. Unless things get very bad, only the most staunch remainers will want to hear about going back in.
As the tories turn the screw and the disenfranchised realise what a colossal act of idiocy it was to put in power a populist far right party, IMO the electrate will come to labour, they don't need to change much at all, just lose a couple of the policies that overreached what could be done within 1 parliament and allowed the right wing press to create scare stories.
They need to sell themselves better and actually get on the attack a bit more instead of just taking a beating with a whimper. A bit more passion in exposing what and who the tories have become.
There are no remainers anymore, it’s done.
Only if you've drunk the Tory kool-aid. In reality we have a decade or more of negotiations with the EU, with the future relationship to be shaped by the political views of the government.
Boris knows the value of the purse and he will pump some money into the economy. (particularly leave areas.)
Result - even more favourability.
I do find it disgusting that many of the key people (activists) who are trying to improve the lives of many are being torn apart now.
I really hate that bit.
I mean how can anyone gloat that the direction of the country has somehow won the moral victory?
Jess Phillips
No thanks. If she's on the form it won't get my tick.
2) Regroup and change direction with a Social Democratic Leader and Policies with someone like Keir Starmer or Yvette Cooper. IMO with the Tories lurching to the right, they shouldn’t lurch to the left.
Centrist remainers? I know it’s a popular view that this should be Labour’s direction, but surely the dismal performance of the Liberal Democrats – offering precisely that political position – should give some pause for thought.
Honestly, forget about Brexit now, it's done.
The next election will be about social justice and economics.
Honestly, forget about Brexit now, it’s done.
The next election will be about social justice and economics.
Leaving the EU is certainly done but that's purely symbolic. Social justice and economics will be very heavily influenced by our future relationship with Europe.
.Only if you’ve drunk the Tory kool-aid. In reality we have a decade or more of negotiations with the EU, with the future relationship to be shaped by the political views of the government.
That’s still a post EU scenario. Remain is off the cards.
Momentum have ****ed Labour, and will continue to do so. The changes to the way the party elects leaders (introduced, ironically, by the now-centrist-looking Ed Milliband) mean we'll never see Keir Starmer heading them up. Which is actually for the best as others have pointed out - his pro-EU stance is even more of a liability now than it was yesterday.
Welcome to a one-party state.
As I keep saying, they first need a leader that is popular with the public (personality wise).
Frank Skinner? Peter Kaye?
I jest, but actually, someone quick witted, northern(ish) and intelligent like a bright lefty comedian would certainly be better than what we’ve had recently. It needs to be somebody with a likeable and engaging personality with decent humanitarian politics and not too many skeletons in the closet to combat the cult of the cuddly imbecile.
That’s still a post EU scenario. Remain is off the cards.
As I said in the post preceding yours...
Here's a question for the hive mind: it's a matter of record that Boris Johnson is a liar and that the Conservative campaign materials were substantially inaccurate and/ or untruthful. Their handsome victory showed that this didn't matter very much to the electorate.
How does a future Labour leader combat this without doing the same?
IMO with the Tories lurching to the right, they shouldn’t lurch to the left.
The Torys *aren't* lurching to the right, quite the opposite. They've been blatently chasing the votes Labour walked away from. That means being "one-nation" and taking the Centre/Centre left ground. They've already been doing this (May was too) because they were openly targetting the red wall and it worked. Now the ERG have been neutered by this majority Boris will find it even easier to move leftwards into ground that was historically Labour's.
Centrist remainers? I know it’s a popular view that this should be Labour’s direction, but surely the dismal performance of the Liberal Democrats – offering precisely that political position – should give some pause for thought.
So chasing votes on the left lead to a Tory landslide & you don't think there are any votes in the middle. So you think Labour should just run a party without getting many votes. You're in luck because that is *literally* the decision Momentum/Seumas made last night. The plan to tweak the leader & leave everything else the same was agreed before the count ended. Third time lucky, next time it'll all be different.
You need a master politician willing to compromise in principles, anyone else will be destroyed by a well funded and coordinated Tory propaganda campaign.
The other option is an extremely long term grass routes turnaround breaking the link between main stream media and the electorates decision making.
So labour lose in pretty much every northern heartland leave voting seat and the solution is to put in place a London based lawyer,who architected the very policy which lost those seats and is a passionate, committed remainer? Are you all mental?
It has to be woman. It has to be a leave sympathiser, and it has to be someone who connects with the working class.
How does a future Labour leader combat this without doing the same?
Corbyn said it himself in one of the debates. In normal times the electorate punish politicians who lie by not voting for them. Look at Boris' approval rating. The only reason Boris didn't lose by a landslide is because the Labour offering was so much worse. *If* Labour sort themselves out, next time lying will be a massive vote loser.
The Torys *aren’t* lurching to the right, quite the opposite. They’ve been blatently chasing the votes Labour walked away from.
The "Get Brexit Done" crowd. How was Labour ever supposed to get them back?
So chasing votes on the left lead to a Tory landslide & you don’t think there are any votes in the middle.
Is that a question or a statement?
They lost direction when they chose Ed over David Miliband. Downhill ever since.
next time lying will be a massive vote loser
Why?
The lies of 2016 weren’t properly challenged. The same team have repeated exactly the same strategy to win in 2019. What will happen between now and the next election to protect democracy from this approach? Why assume it won’t be just as successful next time?
Why?
The lies of 2016 weren’t properly challenged. The same team have repeated exactly the same strategy to win in 2019. What will happen between now and the next election to protect democracy from this approach? Why assume it won’t be just as successful next time?
It seems to me that the approach of a simple, populist message is the route to victory here and in the US. The truth of that message seems to be much less important.
You are the mental case, it was Corbyns dithering that lost the seats, labours failure to make the case against brexit, instead promising just another tweaked breit
So not arguing more strongly for Remain is why they lost in Leave areas?
So labour lose in pretty much every northern heartland leave voting seat and the solution is to put in place a London based lawyer,who architected the very policy which lost those seats and is a passionate, committed remainer? Are you all mental?
Agree with you.
But easier to not do the mental comment - it spirals the discusssion down. Look how MSP responded.
Look - the centrists are never going to get it. It was first about Corbyn then about Brexit and then about Corbyn again after he appeased them. (The centrist / remainer party lost their leader remember.)
Doesn't matter - he's going now. Let's move on. We were always getting Brexit one form or another.
As for Binners he thought a minority Labour Government so he clearly didn't think (like me) it was going to be all bad.
It will be a Blair 2.0 or they'll get the same media dissection as Corbyn.
It has to be woman. It has to be a leave sympathiser, and it has to be someone who connects with the working class.
I don’t think the gender is all that important. No good it being a Labour Jo Swinson, if you can find a Labour Nicola you might be on to something. But they do need to actually want leaving the EU to work, I’ll agree with that.
I’m not sure everyone is recommending a London metro candidate btw. So no need for “all”.
So not arguing more strongly for Remain is why they lost in Leave areas?
Yes, they failed to make the argument as to why they had beened conned by brexit, the far right and the 1 percenters, FFS they didn't even try. Imagine your parents fall for a 419 scam, do you do everything in your power to stop it, or do you recommend transferwise because then they get the best rates transferring their life savings to Nigeria. Labour did the later by just promising a different brexit.
If you’re missing Binners… tune into James O’Brien on LBC right now… he’s doing a Binners on steroids this morning. Go and swear at the radio.
Look – the centrists are never going to get it
I am not a centrist, I have never been a centrist, I am way to the left of most people on here, so you can also **** of with that sneering label. What I am is a realist, I know that most people aren't going to vote for the policies I want so there is a need to sell the start of the process towards of moving to the left, demonstrate the benefits and give people security and freedom currently missing from their lives, before taking the next step.
Labour cut their balls off years ago when they helped nobble the unions.
I can't see a resurgence until there's a whole new generation in the leadership.
In Scotland they have to get behind independence or they will be completely eliminated (just one seat now).
Why?
The lies of 2016 weren’t properly challenged. The same team have repeated exactly the same strategy to win in 2019. What will happen between now and the next election to protect democracy from this approach? Why assume it won’t be just as successful next time?
Well if you're going to argue that lies are popular then, yes, I guess politicians will have to lie from now on. I don't agree with the premise that lies are popular, I think the electorate punish lies.
I also don't accept lies were successful this time, Boris didn't really "win", he didn't run a good campaign his approval rating was negative. Labour just picked policies and people that were never going to win no matter how much Boris pissed off voters. The Tory campaign this time is not an example of a campaign that will need to be emulated, quite the opposite.
Going back to the original question the main reason to lie is to generate "hate-sharing" and Labour don't need hate sharing their followers share stuff widely. In which case there shouldn't be a need for Labour to join in.
...but regards lies, if you have an electorate that want to be lied to there's nothing you can do. If you have someone judging and policing the lies of politicians than you aren't a democracy, you have a dicatorship and the 'lie policeman' is your dicator.
What I am is a realist, I know that most people aren’t going to vote for the policies I want so there is a need to sell the start of the process towards of moving to the left, demonstrate the benefits and give people security and freedom currently missing from their lives, before taking the next step.
Same here. I’m of the left… and agree with Corbyn on nuclear disarmament and other issues he has compromised on as leader. But I am not representative of the British public. I want a government that will give us some left wing policies, and aim to make life better for all in the UK… we won’t get that with a Tory government… and we’ll only ever get Tory government unless Labour tries to win over voters who are not of the left (or we get voting reform).
Going back to the original question the main reason to lie is to generate “hate-sharing”
Over simplification. Key lies (£350 million a week for the NHS, 40 new hospitals) were not about hate sharing.
Sorry but Labour need to look at root and branch reform. This election should have been an easy win for Labour. Inept leadership in not recognising that Brexit was a done deal and the total inability to deal with the anti-semantic issue were just the headlines. It went much, much further. The inability of the members to recognise that you can't have every thing that you want and must focus on the key parts.
The promises in the manifesto were wild that any child with an abacus could have worked out that they were unaffordable. They needed to focus on a small number of points (e.g NHS, Social Care, Education). Wholesale re-nationalisation of water plus other services is not wanted by large blocks of the population and allow the opposition parties to drag the focus away from Labours message.
Michael Foot lost an election by less. It took Labour years to get back to being electable. Without recognising where they are means that this process has yet to start. Momentum should be banned by Labour, it is in effect a party within a party. Sadly it is probably going to take another loss before the penny drops
Key lies (£350 million a week for the NHS, 40 new hospitals) were not about hate sharing.
Yes they were. The first is the classic textbook example that brought the whole idea of hatesharing to the UK conciousness and the hospitals was the prime example from this election.
Well if you’re going to argue that lies are popular then, yes, I guess politicians will have to lie from now on. I don’t agree with the premise that lies are popular, I think the electorate punish lies.
Well we'll get a sneak preview of that when Trump is re-elected. Nobody cares about the truth - maybe that's partly the fault of the internet - you can write anything you like and it is immediately published without any editorial intervention, or accountability.
What on earth will people chant at festivals next year!! 😱😱
No more cries of "ooooooohhh Jeremy Corbyn, ooooooohhh Jeremy Corbyn, ooooooohhh Jeremy Corbyn!".
Michael Foot lost an election by less. It took Labour years to get back to being electable. Without recognising where they are means that this process has yet to start. Momentum should be banned by Labour, it is in effect a party within a party. Sadly it is probably going to take another loss before the penny drops
This.
Plus Michael Foot lost an election by less to a far better opponent. Love her or hate her, Thatcher was a natural leader who could garner votes. In contrast the Torys were on their knees 48 hours ago.
Well we’ll get a sneak preview of that when Trump is re-elected.
Good point, I hadn't thought of him.
You are the mental case, it was Corbyns dithering that lost the seats, labours failure to make the case against brexit, instead promising just another tweaked breit
I have no doubt Brexit swung it, at least in my constituency, which just a few years ago to go Tory was unthinkable.
However, even before Brexit, he was a communist, a terrorist sympathiser, stood against our armed forces, against our Royal family, against anyone wanting to make money, too divisive and uncharismatic too lead, and with a front bench of complete idiots. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of those who voted against him before you even get to Brexit, and it's an opinion that's been held for a long time.
They lost years ago and should have re-organised then. Without a huge shake-up Labour are done. There has been a complete reversal in political polarity here the Labour heartlands.
Seems Corbyn's back-tracking again. He's now saying "I won't lead Labour at the next election" but he's not resigning. They're going to have a "period of refection".
He'll be bunkered down with Diane Abbott and John McDonnell trying to work out how to stay on for the next 4 and a bit years. Prick.
Yes, they failed to make the argument as to why they had beened conned by brexit, the far right and the 1 percenters, FFS they didn’t even try.
Why? IMHO because the whole mess was used as a chance to get people to vote for a leader and policies they wouldn't under other circumstances...
What I am is a realist, I know that most people aren’t going to vote for the policies I want so there is a need to sell the start of the process towards of moving to the left, demonstrate the benefits and give people security and freedom currently missing from their lives, before taking the next step.
What seems to have completely escaped momentum is that promoting anything as a radical change is a vote loser... and an easy target.
FFS .... Brexit was sold as "not much change just better" ... despite it being the biggest change in living history...
They lost direction when they chose Ed over David Miliband. Downhill ever since.
100% (Although Ed seems a far better choice than Corbyn). And probably why we're in this mess. DM may have still lost in 2015 but at least he'd be less off the leave fence than JC was on and probably would have resulted in remain. Thanks Ed.
Corbyn was hammered by the press, had a manifesto so full that it appeared to most people as fanciful bollocks. To the man in the street he was an IRA supporter and then there's the anti-Semite stuff that happened and which he should have resigned over after the umpteenth occurrence. They were more afraid of Corbyn than Brexit. Wrong man.
Corbyn will go. Just need to hope it's a sensible person to take over that will appeal to most people.
I miss Blair.
You are the mental case
You might want to calm down (although I note your little rant has been deleted). I wish I had the influence over national politics you claim, but I don't. And I wasn't calling anyone a mental case, it was a slightly tongue in cheek comment.
Yes, they failed to make the argument as to why they had beened conned by brexit
Complete denial. Is this what we're gonna get for the next 5 years? It doesn't matter any more, people voted for brexit in 2016, and then they did again yesterday. Remain lost, we're leaving, for the good of your health get over it. There are many things the next labour leader has to get right, but first on the list is acknowledging this simple fact, and respecting the decision of the voters. Everything starts from this simple position.
From last night..
"Assuming BJ sees out his full term, it will be a full 50 years since a Labour leader other than Tony Blair was elected as PM."
There has to be a message there for the Labour Party. Either change tack to better represent the actual English electorate, or die waiting for its views to change
I’ll say it again… Corbyn should stay leader for a while… he needs (and I mean this practically, not vindictively) to own this mess, give Labour time to work our where it goes next, and make sure the next leader’s “honeymoon period” isn’t wasted on the mess of 2020.
I miss Blair.
Careful now the faithful will be screaming about all the extra funding our public services got, the record number of young people going to Uni, the longest period of economic growth in British History, the ending of the Troubles, the 3 elections on the bounce and the glorious sense of confidence and unity we enjoyed.
No wait, they'll just scream "Tory Scum" and the Iraq War.
This.
Plus Michael Foot lost an election by less to a far better opponent. Love her or hate her, Thatcher was a natural leader who could garner votes. In contrast the Torys were on their knees 48 hours ago.
She also had some idea about reality.
Kinnock made a great speech and kicked out a lot of the militants in Labour and possibly set the groundwork for New Labour. This needs to happen. Unfortunately momentum appear to behave like a cult.
There has to be a message there for the Labour Party. Either change tack to better represent the actual English electorate, or die waiting for its views to change
Maybe that is the message for the country - we are in effect living in a one-party state, like Russia, whose policies are decided by oligarchs and the media they control. The only time another party (effectively the same party, but with a different name) is allowed is when the oligarchs divert their support temporarily.
Exaggeration - sort of. But look at the facts - do the electorate actually care about the NHS? about the poor? the homeless? victims of Grenfell? and on and on. No - they don't - they only care about some fake emotions whipped up by the Mail.
he needs (and I mean this practically, not vindictively) to own this mess
I made a prediction the other day on the election thread. It's already panning out and gathering steam. The shock and disappointment is turning to anger, and the almost gleeful kneejerk 'we told you so' reaction of the usual suspects like Alan Johnson last night will come back to bite them. It's going to be an extremely messy, chaotic, and depressing civil war. Forget any delusions about winning future elections, the battle now is an existential one. There's a very high chance that in a year's time there will be no labour party, at least not in it's current form.
Careful now the faithful will be screaming about all the extra funding our public services got, the record number of young people going to Uni, the longest period of economic growth in British History, the ending of the Troubles, the 3 elections on the bounce and the glorious sense of confidence and unity we enjoyed.
No wait, they’ll just scream “Tory Scum” and the Iraq War.
add NHS waiting times, end of child poverty.
I can take it. He'd wipe the floor with this lot and I bet he would be re-elected. Trouble is Labours been hijacked
I can take it. He’d wipe the floor with this lot and I bet he would be re-elected. Trouble is Labours been hijacked
I think his Brand is too toxic now, but in his Day he'd have destroyed a Tory party as bad as we have now.
Starmer could have all the strengths of Blair, without the Megalomaniac tendencies of his later career.
reaction of the usual suspects like Alan Johnson last night will come back to bite them
Alan Johnson isn’t just a “usual suspect”, he was the man tasked with leading the Labour Remain campaign in 2016, only to come up against Corbyn’s and his handlers. He became overly cynical and disillusioned with what has happened to Labour due to that experience. It’s both personal and political for him.
Yes, they failed to make the argument as to why they had beened conned by brexit, the far right and the 1 percenters, FFS they didn’t even try.
So you think they should've gone all out for Remain? The Lib Dem debacle tells you all you need to know about that particular dead end.
There’s a very high chance that in a year’s time there will be no labour party, at least not in it’s current form.
I think the electorate have made it clear that this is what they want.
No wait, they’ll just scream “Tory Scum” and the Iraq War.
Out of interest, how many dead brown people is an acceptable number? Blair was certainly a very capable politician with a clearly articulated vision, but was pretty much busted by 2005. Time to move on.
I hate the idea of leaving the EU but resigned to it. Lemons, etc.
Corbyn needs to stay for a while until the mess has settled and a grown up decision about the next leader can happen. Although I think that's pretty much what he has said, reading between the lines.
But at that point, Labour have to recognise what will be electable is not policies or personas percieved as far left. Regardless of whether similar policies are used to great effect in Scandi countries.
@DrJ absolutely; This is Tory England.
Fervent Labour supporters really need to stop saying "Comrade" on social media.It both looks, and sounds ridiculous.
Give Diane a chance.
I think the electorate have made it clear that this is what they want
The problem with saying that is that this GE had Brexit issue all mashed up with party politics.
I can only hope that the next election will be fought on more sane ground.