The trade likes Howdens because the branches hold huge amounts of stock, great for changing things on the hoof which happens surprisingly often. Not a great business model for the company, you wonder what it costs to service the debt on tens of millions of pounds worth stock across the UK. I find the quality fine apart from (as said, the worktops). I don't like the IKEA system of doing units in 200mm width integers and using lots of infills, don't like how flimsy the larger sized units are, the lack of service space at the rear, the crap feet and how the units fit to the wall.
Worktops. I do like the Earthstone type product that is solid surface onto a chipboard core, much more durable and water resistant than laminate.
When we had our 3 x 6m kitchen fitted in 2019 the worktops were £1500 for laminate or £3000+ for quartz. We took the advice to get the worktop done by a third party, we ended up with quartz for £1500! The process was the same as of we bought it all as a package with the kitchen and we were able to go to the yard and select the exact slab as they can vary.
I am a semi retired kitchen fitter.
Most important get a good local kitchen fitter, not a builder or joiner. He will advise you on design and choice of units and worktops . My favourite is DIY kitchens, not on my list is Howdens or Wren. Have a look at Duropal for quality laminate worktops. Wooden tops are very good but only if treated religously in when new, most people do'nt.
well this kitchens become a bluddy nightmare. been let down by 2 builders (both are mates too), a family member who was going to fit the kitchen, and various other builders we've asked to quote too. we should have had the building work done months ago but builders on other jobs, then hop operations, then going onto other jobs has meant we've got nowhere.
as it stands, we've got a full kitchen coming from MKM on tuesday and we havent even been able to knock the internal wall down yet for it to fit. and nobody to fit it either when that does happen.
we feel like just jacking it all in, but we're 6k into it.
i guess that as deposit and balance have been paid, theres no way we could ask for money back and then re-order the same kitchen when we're ready for it?
we asked MKM if we could delay the delivery but thats a no. we dont really have anywhere to store it. i guess we dont have any options? we wouldnt want to mess MKM about as theyve been good to us, but if they cant delay delivery do we have any recourse in getting a refund and explaining to them we'll buy the same kitchen in a few months time?
i guess its @cougar to the forum, @cougar to the forum 😀
(im not expecting any success with this but worth an ask)
Could you ask them to deliver to a storage unit and keep it there till ready?
Could you ask them to deliver to a storage unit and keep it there till ready?
i guess that would mean having access to a storage unit 🙂
im thinking of asking an elderly neighbour if we can use her garage but im a bit wary of damp/mice etc 😀
another consideration is that when i paid, the subsequent email reply stated that "You will have a full 28-day window from delivery to report any missing items/damages for free of charge replacements. I’m hoping within that timescale you’ll be up and running with your new kitchen, but I do need to mention it, as we’re currently unsure on the installation date."
so i guess that if it isnt sorted within a month, when it comes to fitting, if theres anything damaged/missing/not noticed on delivery then thats tough.
Yeah I got caught on that with a bathroom. Installation got delayed by covid lockdown, but the everything was delivered anyway. They expected me to unwrap everything and inspect it all 🙄
You're probably shit out, I'm afraid.
Your right to cancel under CCR does not apply to bespoke goods. Whether your kitchen is "bespoke" is another matter, but if you've had something designed for your kitchen which be unable to be resold, even if they've not actually started building it yet, it will count as bespoke. This has been tested in court - the claimant lost.
i guess that if it isnt sorted within a month, when it comes to fitting, if theres anything damaged/missing/not noticed on delivery then thats tough.
I would argue here that any "free replacement" offers would be in addition to your statutory rights. The CRA affords you the right of repair / replacement for six months from taking delivery; if it's delivered in stages then this applies from when you've received everything.
Whilst generally the onus is on the merchant to disprove any faults reported during this timescale, it would be difficult to argue that only you'd just noticed damage / missing items after five and a half months of daily use. In your case though if it's being stored for a while before installation it wouldn't be a wild flight of fantasy to suddenly discover weeks after delivery that you've only got 15 handles when there should have been 16.
I guess here this would fall back to "reasonable" and from the merchant's point of view you said it yourself, the installation date is "unsure" - it could be next week or next year and from the sounds of where you're at months down the line already it could well be the latter. They're arse covering for a potential future call, "yeah, I bought this kitchen from you five years ago, it's been stored in someone else's garage ever since, I've just got around to fitting it this week and found that the worktop is chipped..." To my mind this Unknown is the sticking point; if you could hang dates on when you expect work to commence then they might take that into account.
You said MKM has been "good to us" so I think in your case I'd be thinking that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. If you can shore up the demolition / installation details sooner rather than later and then hope for some goodwill from the merchant - the fact that you've been in regular contact so far is a good sign - that will hopefully get you a better outcome than playing the "I know my rights!" card at this point. If you have to fight it then I wouldn't give you good odds I'm afraid.
I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc. 😁 Good luck.
Oh, as for not having anywhere to store it,
https://www.storefirst.com/ (and many others, that was just a google hit not a personal recommendation)
There are plenty of storage rental facilities offering secure storage, insurance, delivery services... Get the kitchen delivered directly there, It'll cost you a few quid but gives you a lot more options / assurance than stuffing it in some rando's garage for who knows how long.
That in itself is a point, if a neighbour wanted to fill my garage with their crap then the first question I'd be asking is "how long for?" If a couple of weeks then sure; if a couple of months then let's have a conversation about rental price; if 'fuctifino' then no chance, sorry.
I found a reference to the case I was thinking of.
"... where customers purchase bespoke or personalised goods, they will be exempt from the cooling off period under the CCR and will no longer have the right to cancel. If the products are bespoke or personalised, the trader is not required by law to provide information to customers about any cancellation rights since they do not apply. However, you [the trader] should always err on the side of caution (especially if you sell products in their standard form as well as customised forms) and include this information in your terms and conditions for online or telephone purchases.
The reason for this is because the law on whether an item is bespoke or not remains a grey area determined on a case-by-case basis. The UK government’s guidance on bespoke products provides an example of the purchase of a customisable football shirt. The guidance states that a football shirt bearing a player’s name would not be considered as bespoke, as it is possible for another customer to wear the shirt and the trader to resell it with minimal loss. On the other hand, if the shirt contains the customer’s own name, there is less chance that any other customer would be able to wear it and the trader would incur a greater loss as they would not be able to resell it. The cancellation rights would apply to the former situation, but not the latter.
Whether an item is of bespoke nature was also considered in the case of Möbel Kraft GmbH & Co. KG v ML. Here, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) determined whether a consumer should be able to withdraw from a contract for a bespoke fitted kitchen, which was held off-premises, up until the time at which the supplier (or its subcontractor) started to produce the kitchen parts. With reference to the provision in Article 16 (c) of the Consumer Rights Directive (2011/83/EU), the ECJ concluded that even if the trader has not started to work on the bespoke products, the customer will lose their cancellation rights, by virtue of the fact the goods are bespoke.
In this case, ML (the customer) entered into a sales contract with Möbel Kraft (furniture company) for a bespoke fitted kitchen. ML subsequently claimed a right of withdrawal and on that ground, refused to accept delivery of the kitchen. Möbel Kraft then sought damages. Although the furniture company had not commenced the fitting of the kitchen when ML withdrew from the contract, ML had lost its cancellation rights as the parts of the kitchen covered by the contract were specifically made to fit ML’s premises. It was impossible to recover the cost of this work by trying to install the kitchen into other premises and the kitchen was therefore considered bespoke.
The examples above demonstrate that in order for the products to be of bespoke nature, they need to be sufficiently customised to the customer’s specifications that it cannot be sold to other customers once the contract has been cancelled."
So I suppose the acid test is, could whatever they've already made realistically be resold? If they're standard units with a worktop cut to size on the premises that's arguably a different scenario from something custom-designed to fit in your space.
@cougar thank you very much mate, appreciate your time.
pretty sure it wont be classed as bespoke, nothings been designed specifically to fit our kitchen, theyre all bog standard sized units, and we're getting the worktop elsewhere (which is another issue.... "come on mate, we cant hang on to this worktop forever, can you put 50% deposit down?")
however, i agree with you on the catching flies with honey rather than vinegar, better to keep up good relations (plus theres no reason why they wouldnt tell me to jog on anyway when i asked for a refund).
our neighbours garage is empty and im sure she wouldnt mind, but shes 96 (i think) and er.... you know.... will she still be around in 10 years time when the builder gets sorted 😀
thanks again, like i said, i appreciate your time.
Nightmare. We had a similar thing with our extension, as the build took a bit longer than expected.
We always knew the kitchen would be delivered before the build was ready though, so prepped the garage in advance. Only issue was that despite the assurances of the builder, he didn't get the new door on the garage in time, so ended up sealing it up with a large bit of OSB propped against it. This was a standard size 'personnel' door rather than a full-width up & over.
Even so, I had many sleepless nights worrying it was going to get wrecked/damp in the garage, even after the door was fitted. But, in the end it was actually fine.
In your situation, unless you have a very good relationship with your neighbour and they don't need their garage, I would pay for a storage unit & get it delivered there. Kitchen units take up more space than you expect when they aren't fitted around the walls.
We had to put the stuff we cleared out of our garage while the building work was done into storage & for something large enough to take our entire cluttered garage cost us ~£165/month.
I'd go for somewhere that is large enough so you could check the kitchen over as best you can, once it is delivered. It's a bit of a nightmare scenario but I'd explain it to the kitchen people & see what they say.
With Howdens, we found some damaged parts at the time of fitting (about 2.5 months after delivery) and they replaced it all next day without any issue.
Fingers crossed it all works out!
Re: appliances. Miele have a factory outlet which issues a stock list and prices daily. Some of the stock is absolutely brand new still packaged, others ex-showroom - they tell you which. Prices can be a very big discount from list, the staff on the phone are excellent to deal with and it’s free delivery
our neighbours garage is empty and im sure she wouldnt mind, but shes 96 (i think) and er.... you know....
My thinking really was that if you use a 'facility' then as far as I can tell there's an audit trail. If it eventually arrives to your pad damaged or incomplete then you've got records of who delivered what where and when, so whilst allocating individual blame might be tricky you can demonstrate that it's not your fault. Whereas languishing in a neighbour's garage for however long, who knows whether some neanderthal has coshed in a corner or kids have dragged a bike pedal down the side when squeezing past it to visit granny.
Again, this is not legal advice. 😁 I'm just thinking out loud.
(plus theres no reason why they wouldnt tell me to jog on anyway when i asked for a refund).
You have the right to reject under CCR, *IF* it's not a bespoke order.
It seems that there's rumblings within the EU that when it's uncertain, the definition of bespoke should be considered narrow rather than broad. But, y'know, another brexit benefit, we no longer have Johnny Foreigner dictating what we have to do around consumer protection. Yay us. \o/
