[Closed] new driving fines thingy

Seems reasonable to me. Fines should be a lot higher though IMO. Start 'em at £500
That's what hurts people: Loosing money.

Good interview about this on Radio 4 with Philip Hamond (Transport Secretary):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9482000/9482518.stm

Makes sense to me - though I'm not a big fan of fixed fines as they punish the poor far more than the rich.

[url= http://www.lum.co.uk/mloc/index.html ]What about this lot, eh?[/url]

Will make fark all difference. The amount of people I see using mobiles whilst driving is astounding despite it being a fine + three points job. So if that's ignored then so will this.

I'm not a big fan of fixed fines as they punish the poor far more than the rich.

Or, looking at it another way, they punish people who break the law more than those who don't.

Personally I think it's BS.

Gives even more power to the jumped up little Hitlers who 9 times out of 10 are probably just jealous of the person driving the nice car.

*and breathe*

Fines are all well and good, but who is going to enforce them! The police don't enforce the existing laws very well

What about this lot, eh?

From that link;

Welcome to the official webpage of the Middle Lane Owners Club of Great Britain and Scotland.

I thought Scotland was part of Great Britian (at the moment, anyway).

I can't see it working.

With speeding its simple and they have clear proof. This is too subjective, its just your word against a policemans. I can see it being challenged a lot in court and ultimately being scrapped.

Variable fines based on income would be good I reckon. Like they have in other countries.

I think driving standards are pretty poor and hopefully after a few years it will have an effect on these standards.

jon1973, you should have a look at their section on Overtaking....

I think it's a great idea and a massive step in the right direction. It's a shame that we don't actually have any coppers to enforce it.

EDIT: is my typing really that slow? Someone beat me to my own comments.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

What about this lot, eh?

That's a great site, the overtaking page is especially useful 😆

Weekly checks
Check all pipes and top up tobacco
Check and top up tin of Worthers Originals
Check tyres. If one is missing then replace it

Its a case of a rozzer being in the right place at the right time. As has been said, I saw 3 people on mobiles while driving in my 20 minute walk home yesterday.

Good idea though... drive like a prick, get instant punishment.

They should issue the police with Bombers too...

Is this only aimed at motorists? Or are we included too??

I mean I jump lights and hop onto pavements, enter yellow boxes, bunny hop in front of taxis, cut underneath all the time in that there London..

> [i]I'm not a big fan of fixed fines as they punish the poor far more than the rich. [/i]

Or, looking at it another way, they punish people who break the law more than those who don't.

Eh? Are you suggesting that rich people don't drive badly?

My point is that two people from different ends of the social spectrum may commit the exactly same motoring offence, but using a fixed fine means the severity of their punishment is hugely different.

Lord Montgomery-Smythe the III can laugh off his £50 fine and have his man pay it with the change in the glovebox - whereas £50 might be half the benefits for a fortnight at Bob Peasant's house and mean his 12 kids have to go without Turkey Twizzlers.

That's a great site,

I'm tempted to join so I can use the forum and find out about group buying Worthers Originals to save money.

My point is that two people from different ends of the social spectrum may commit the exactly same motoring offence, but using a fixed fine means the severity of their punishment is hugely different.

Lord Montgomery-Smythe the III can laugh off his £50 fine and have his man pay it with the change in the glovebox - whereas £50 might be half the benefits for a fortnight at Bob Peasant's house and mean his 12 kids have to go without Turkey Twizzlers.

The crime is the same, so why should the punishment differ? Should a rich murderer serve longer than a poor one?

Bob Peasant can happily save that £50 and buy all the twizzlers he wants with it by simply [i]not breaking the law in the first place[/i]!

Yep, good in principle... how will it work in practice?

There are insufficient traffic cops left now they've been replaced with yellow boxes which is why you see so many people on the phone/barging in from slip roads/not signalling etc - standards are slipping (dontyachno).

So they'll get the psuedo cops out to do this; Billy Bunter the doughnut gobbler and his mate the PCSO... Both not really in a position to judge....

As with speeding, a lot of people will simply hold their hands up rather than contest and be fined when they might not even get to court normally.

Another crafty way of taxing motorists...

it works well enough in France why not here. the standard of driving is really poor here. Like the idea that 1st time it's a driving course, after that it's a fine.

Benjamin MiddleClass measures his fine in terms of bottles of red wine.

The crime is the same, so why should the punishment differ?

Because if you look at the fine in terms of a percentage of income, then for a poorer person, then the impact is greater, so it's a harsher penalty for them.

@MT - most of the French I've spoken to are very complimentary about UK driving standards (God knows why) and they have a proper police force to judge/enforce the on the spot fines.

but using a fixed fine means the severity of their punishment is hugely different.

Points on your licence is part of the fixed penalty, so I don't see how that has less of an impact if you're rich. Plus, if you can afford to run a car, then you can afford an £80 fine.

Easy answer is to not break the law.

Another crafty way of taxing motorists...

No it's not. It's a way of getting fines more easily and cheaply from those who break the law.

Bob Peasant can happily save that £50 and buy all the twizzlers he wants with it by simply not breaking the law in the first place!

So Lord Montgomery-Smythe the III can break all the laws he wants because he can clearly afford it?

measures his fine in terms of bottles of red wine

It's funny coz it's true. A 4 bottles of wine fine for not using my indicators.

Lord Montgomery-Smythe the III can break all the laws he wants because he can clearly afford it?

Not if he losses his licence and can't drive his Range Rover to the country club.

Does it mean I can send video evidence of shite driving to the police? I'm all for it if that's the case! Otherwise they just won't catch people.

Not if he losses his licence and can't drive his Range Rover to the country club.

Then he'd just sack that driver and hire another one 🙂

I think it's a good idea, but implementing it isn't going to be easy.

I can't remember the last time I saw a police car that wasn't on it's way to an emergency and I can't see them stopping to dole out fines if they see someone driving badly.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

No it's not. It's a way of getting fines more easily and cheaply from those who break the law

By reducing the standard of proof required? Who will be doing this? Not experienced traffic officers - unless there's a recruitment campaign. It'll be bobbies acting as judge and jury (well magistrate anyway) bullying people with paperwork and presumption of guilt. Again.

Does it mean I can send video evidence of shite driving to the police?

Yeah, I took some the other day of a driver using his mobile phone. Absolutely shocking it was. And it bloody caused me to creep up to 35 in a 30.

Then he'd just sack that driver and hire another one

It's not that easy, think of all the ribbing he'll get down the golf club.

As I recall the respect for the french bobbies was because they can be utter bastards and back it up with a gun. Got stopped for speeding (warning only) by a nice youg gandarme a few years ago, what made it clear to me that I should pull in was that he stepped into the road and pointed his machine gun in my general direction. He was very polite and I was extreemly respectful and polite. I was 8kph over the limit so no trip to the cash machine.

It'll be bobbies acting as judge and jury (well magistrate anyway) bullying people with paperwork and presumption of guilt. Again.

Bollocks. Like speeding you can contest the fine in court if you disagree with the officer.

But I rather think that when he takes you to his car and shows you a video of you demonstrably driving like an arse then you're better off admitting it is a fair cop and just paying the fine.

That's not [i]"bullying"[/i] - it is just efficient justice.

a step in the right direction - sends the right message at least.
No doubt the 'war on the motorist/what about cyclists' lines will be trotted out again.
But we do need more bobbies around to spot the offence if people are actually to be punished for their behaviour. Only when there are consequences will people change IMO

Are people really driving that badly?
Are you not all getting a bit 'Daily Mail' about this?

Fining people based on their income is nonsense and impossible to be consistent, anything that means treating people differently for the same offence is manifestly unfair.

What next ? Have Actuaries work out how long somebody will live ? Big fat rapist who smokes gets a five year sentence and your fit healthy rapist ten years ?? (although realistically only 1% of them will ever go anywhere near a prison, but thats for another rant)

Then, to take that to it's logical conclusion - Mr Mercedes Owner suddenly finds himself homeless and unemployed - surely the state should give him much higher benefits - as the impact on him will be much much more than Joe Fiesta Driver...

GrahamS - Member
Like speeding you can contest the fine in court if you disagree with the officer.

But I rather think that when he takes you to his car and shows you a video of you demonstrably driving like an arse then you're better off admitting it is a fair cop and just paying the fine.

Yes, but people don't do they? Not just because they are bang to rights Guv, but because they can't be arsed/can't get to court/can't afford the time etc etc....

I agree with your last para. If an appropriately trained and experienced traffic officer can properly judge the offence and show the ne're do well what they did on video, they should be given the ticket option.

However, I'd be interested to hear how you think this will be resourced?

The Southern Yeti - Member
Are people really driving that badly?

Yes, round 'ere. They are selfish fkcers and should be gassed 🙂

It's a tiny wee stumble in the right direction, but like everything else that the government thinks up it has huge flaws in it and is full of holes.

I'm never comfortable with instant justice.

I like the idea as it will save police time - however its not the punishment that matters here - its the chance of being caught which remains very low. I want to see much tougher enforcement of motoring law - zero tolerance

Edit - most car drivers break the law a dozen times a journey - but get caught once ever few years. Speeding, overtaking inappropriately, illegal parking, lack of indicators, tailgating etc etc

I'm not so sure it's a good idea personally - I mean in principle it is, there's dozens of people each day that I see that would get fined, but a) someone has to enforce it and b) it's going to be very subjective - it's not like "were you or were you not on the phone, check the records" or "were you speeding, check the laser?". "Were you driving a little too close to the person in front of you...check the....oh, hang on".

The whole problem with [s]bullying[/s] FPNs is there's no way to appeal without risking a much heavier toll. If the system were fair it would not risk you getting a higher fine just so you could present your case to a third party for a decision, instead they use the threat of twice the penalty unless you keep quiet and not question the officers.

I want to see much tougher enforcement of motoring law - zero tolerance

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/great-roads-you-have-to-drive#post-2534085 ]Like speeding, eh, TJ? ;-)[/url]

Edit - most car drivers break the law a dozen times a journey

😉

Mandatory retesting every 5 years would be a much fairer policy.

while it might be a good idea in theory to cut down paperwork for the police for the ones they catch, it won't stop those idiots that talk on their mobile, agressivley undertake, tailgate etc etc. every day I see an example of these offences occuring and I have never seen a traffic cop (or other police car) anywhere near when it occurs.

@CaptainFlashheart 8)

Especially helmet denyrs... 😆

I've started [s]tail gating[/s] slip streaming people to save fuel.. 🙂

most car drivers road users, and that includes motorbike riders, break [s]the law[/s] the highway code a dozen times a journey

Double Edit

I have never seen a traffic cop (or other police car) anywhere near when it occurs

EDIT: Good point hillclimber 🙂

TJ did say "used to be". Try sticking to the point flashy rather than giving yourself an erection by spotting a potential flaw in TeeJ's post.

Are people really driving that badly?

163,554 road accidents involving injury of which 21,997 involved serious injury and 2,200 deaths (2009) suggests we are.

As mentioned before, it all depends on the Feds being in the right place at the right time.

S'pose the feds will become selffunding after a couple of weeks. 😀

Agreed with what Surroundedby Zulu's said.

jon out of how many journeys though? Objectively.. those numbers really aren't significant.

Agreed - but at least the ones that DO get caught really must deserve it because they really couldn't be concentrating if they don't spot the police car.

Actually I disagree on that - generally when concentrating on driving fast (not usually on public roads) I've no idea what the car is, it could have pink ears on - I'm concentrating on car control and traffic movements, the cars just become an object without colour or much more than a basic shape in my mind. If I was able to spot and recant the colours and types of cars I'd not be concentrating enough to drive quickly safely.

So commiting a crime in the past is OK then is it? 😉

A thought - if it were easier to hand out fines, would the police do it more often?

So commiting a crime in the past is OK then is it?

Still struggling to stick to the point. How hard is it flashy?

No doubt the 'war on the motorist/what about cyclists' lines will be trotted out again.

Also on the radio this morning was Lord Robertson, chairman of the Commission for Global Road Safety.

The exchange went something like:

[i]"Lord Robertson, some would point out that your commission is funded and run by automobile clubs and the motor industry and focuses purely on getting pedestrians and cyclists off the roads, rather than getting people out of cars."

"Well it's the pedestrians that are getting killed - not the people in cars..."[/i]

👿

Aaaargh! I'm going to guess that the pedestrians aren't being killed by crashing into each other.

They'll get the Highway bods to do it, PCSO's or Dinner Ladies or sum such cobblers.

You won't see any more Traffic Cops but you will see more fines. How does that work then?

Mandatory retesting every 5 years would be a much fairer policy.

I don't believe this will work. People get in to bad habits, but can easily behave under exam conditions. Re-testing after any conviction is a good idea. Why penalise good drivers?

coffeeking - Member
Agreed - but at least the ones that DO get caught really must deserve it because they really couldn't be concentrating if they don't spot the police car.
Actually I disagree on that - generally when concentrating on driving fast (not usually on public roads) I've no idea what the car is, it could have pink ears on - I'm concentrating on car control and traffic movements, the cars just become an object without colour or much more than a basic shape in my mind. If I was able to spot and recant the colours and types of cars I'd not be concentrating enough to drive quickly safely

Well Lord Robertson does have a point.

As for the why penalise good drivers - show me a good driver and I'll think about that point. Good drivers are few and far between, like Dodos

@hels, variable fines and benefits are used in various european countries. So the ideas should not be so easily dismissed. If you earn 100gbp a week the impact of a 80gbp fine is very different to that experienced by someone earning 1000gbp a week.

As for the benefits argument if you are earning 1000 a week loosing your job and then living on 70 a week has a fast greater affect on life than going from 100 to 70.

Remember a driving licence is not a right, you have to prove you are capable, if you then prove unable to drive you should loose your licence.

CFH - so what - unlike some on here I don't bleat if done - I accept my fines and walk away.

Don't be a hypocrite - if you want to speed than accept the fines if caught.

[i]Yeah, I took some the other day of a driver using his mobile phone[/i]

Using a mobile phone isn't bad driving. Bad driving is bad driving.

Don't be a hypocrite - if you want to speed than accept the fines if caught.

Where did I say that I wouldn't accept a fine if I was caught?

coffeeking - Member

.............. If I was able to spot and recant the colours and types of cars I'd not be concentrating enough to drive quickly safely.

You are clearly not concentrating properly if you don't know what is around you.

I think a mandatory retest at 5 years would be a good idea as long as it is a lot harder.

then you would be on a provisional pass for your 1st 5 years.

they also needs to include compulsory motorway lessons and possibly a test and I think basic car care should be included. I am not talking a mechanics course but just a basic - how do you check the fluids, how do you do a visual check of tyres, what should you do if this noise/shake etc happens - basically getting people to realise that if something is wrong it could be serious and they need to go to a garage.

We also need to get out of the mentality that driving is a 'right' and you need to prove you are responsibly and skilled enough. The standard of driving these days is shocking.

Oh and people who use phones when driving really pi$$ me off!

In general CFH. Not you specifically

Here we go...

Ah, OK, understood, TJ. Thanks.

Also;

You are clearly not concentrating properly if you don't know what is around you.

Spot on.