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Release day today, (live on Facebook now). Have Land Rover managed to 're-imagine' an icon?
As a regular driver of Defenders, I have a love hate relationship with them. They are uncomfortable, unreliable, rusty, unsafe, inefficient, massive outside and too small inside.
However, they are also, inexplicable, awesome.
The old one was decades out of date. It will be really interesting to see if they can find the right balance between old Defender and modern expectations.
It'll cost a bloody fortune.
It’ll cost a bloody fortune
The old ones were hardly cheap! But yes, they will be super expensive.
There’s leaked photos out it looks like a Chinese Knock off it’s a bit crap.
The best thing to happen with the new Defender is if it pushes the crazy high second hand prices of the old one down! 🙂
I like it....even though it looks like a giant mini countryman
This?
Hardly a new design these days, so its the underpinnings that really matter innit?
They still have this issue that they're trying to make an agricultural vehicle that the majority of owners will barely drive off road.
'Enthusiasts' want something they can fix with a mallet and an adjustable spanner, 'lifestyle' people a jacked up 5 series estate and they can't sell enough of them to the former to make it pay it's way and the latter can't understand why they shouldn't just buy a Disco/Evoque.
It's a difficult sell.
I like it.
Tough audience at the motor show though. Lots of awkward silences where the designer is waiting for applause.
I don't think you can build an "easy fix vehicle" for the EU/American market. With all the emissions control gumpf and quest for light weight and electric that'll never happen.
Not seen the commercial ones yet but the Professor was making my teeth itch so had to stop watching
The commercial 90 looked great.
£35 + VAT for the commercial!
**** that!
£35 + VAT for the commercial!
Less than forty quid? bargin!
configure away...
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VAT back though innit.
£35k is about right, what were you expecting? £14k??, 7shillings and 6pence???
I personally quite like it. I do agree that the majority of buyers/PCP'ers won't ever take it off road though.. but stick low profile tyres on it for the Waitrose carpark monotony..
Theres a bloke down the road from me who will definitely buy one, he has a HarleyD in the garage, an Ewok for his Mrs, an RR'finch (old shape, trad design because the new ones a bit gauche) cleans them all at least once a week and jet washes his drive once a fortnight.
But I think the LRD has lost out to rattly L200's/Navaras/Rangers these days (for anything remotely like "commercial")
Looks like a Skoda Yeti
Looks like a Skoda Yeti
Or a squared off Mini Countryman in the options pictures
Oi! Don't you be insulting my Yeti, it look like a Kia Soul
£35k not crazy for the commercial version, a blingy Transit is about the same! Wonder if you can get a 29er in the back with the wheels on 🤔 I don’t think it’s what most people will want though (I.e. simple, reliable, cheap)
I guess it’s come full circle in a way... there was a time when the Range Rover was just a posher Land Rover, now this seems to be just a budget RR (and neither really meant to go off road!)
Agree it looks like a giant mini though 😂
People who want real utility have pick ups, they’re a far better configuration for people who want to use their vehicle as a tool so this was only ever going to be aimed at the Waitrose car park set.
It’s a classic nostalgic re-interpretation.
Trouble with having one as a commercial/work vehicle is reliability- if it's off the road it's costing you money, and LR's reliability reputation, combined with the complexity and dealer/workshop turn-around times would count it out for anyone with a bit of nous I would think.
To my untrained eye the 3 door version looks like a modern version of the Freelander I.
I have to admit to being a fan of the old Defender, used to drive them quite a lot off-road and on-road in my old military days.
Even Mrs W wanted one until she test drove it. It would only be the Waitrose carpark, mountain bike carrying / weekend away vehicle. But she wasn't a fan. Looked awesome on the outside but it was a bit rattly and noisy.
Price wise, doesn't seem to silly really. My old Freelander II had a list price of £30k back in 2008 (HSE).
To my untrained eye the 3 door version looks like a modern version of the Freelander
Agree. Bit of a cross between Freelander and Discovery. Just another modern Land Rover product I guess that has nothing to do with the Defender and all those before that.
I remember the base model Defender hardtop was just over £20K before they stopped selling them wasn't it? so £40K is quite a jump.
Bit of a cross between Freelander and Discovery.
A Free Recovery?
Why is there a great big square of metal blocking rear passengers visibility on the 3 door model!?
Why is there a great big square of metal blocking rear passengers visibility on the 3 door model!?
It's an Adventure Panel.
That's where the roof ladder / jerry cans / dead deer / insurgent corpses get strapped on.
To hide their shame of being in faux defender.
The new Defender that I want is this one:
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It's a bit bland, isn't it? Looks like any other 4x4 you'll see doing the school run.
Looks a bit like a squished version of the last RR? Looks good IMO.
But......
Its just a slightly cheaper nostalgic discovery isnt it?
A new defender, should have been something unusual and an update of the otiginal concept like a galvanised ladder chassis to please the modifiers, independent suspension to bring it into the second half of the 20th century, bodywork made from recycled plastic.
Yes the engine would still need to be something complicated, But I dont see why the rest of it can't be a cooler 4wd version of a berlingo/yeti in '90' trim, and l200 competitor in 110 guise.
They'll still sell them as quickly as they can be built.
Lots of surprise on Twitter, apparently it looks a lot like a concept car they released prior to this, which is normal, apart from the fact they released it in 2004.
£50k is about entry for a non-commercial one which is about the same as an X5, GLE and Touran which will likely be more refined, smoother more car-like and all that, but £25k less than the cheapest G Class, but the new G Class is supposedly almost perfect.
Looks like the love child of a Skoda Yeti and half a Discovery.
I'll pass, in favour of a V8 Landcruiser.
Hmm I quite like the commercial, not that I have any use for it whatever or the cash to buy one.
£78k for an unreliable cheap looking Skoda Yeti knock off?
Dear me....
I bet the suzuki jimmy will still outperform it and be more reliable in the real off road world.
£78k for an unreliable cheap looking Skoda Yeti knock off?
Dear me….
But... Defender.
Too expensive, too much paintwork, too much plastic, gone upmarket from it's original roots (inevitably), crap new engines.
I'd rather have a Landrcruiser Utility at £35k
🤮
Sad day when a Suzuki Jimny has more off road credibility than a ‘Defender’, or rather a D.I.N.O.
I don’t think you can build an “easy fix vehicle” for the EU/American market. With all the emissions control gumpf and quest for light weight and electric that’ll never happen.
I disagree. If you remove needless thing like electric handbreaks the hold back to easy to fix is basically the manufacturer providing an open interface to their ECU / bcu etc would good documentation so that enthusiast's can develop their own diagnostic software. Much of the difficulty with modern cars is because unless you have manufacturers software and documentation you don't have access to lotta of diagnostic information, or the ability to recode a new box or test sensors / actuators.
More capable off road than many are giving credit, billed as most capable land rover ever. During testing in the middle east it did drive straight over the dunes that the land cruisers could not get to the top of so deserves some credit. Target customer is also probably not the same demographic as original defender.
Well, I doubt they will sell many (?any) of these to military customers in volumes anything like the old Defender. Sometimes manufacturers seem happy to shoot themselves in the foot. Over 200,000 Defenders have been brought by the MoD alone.
More Pinzgauers and potentially G-Wagons is the rumoured long-term plan for the British military. At least reliability will improve!
I think the MOD run vehicles a lot more complicated than a Land Rover Defender!
We're also forgetting that farmers these days don't hold their trousers up with baler twine or have moth-eaten waistcoats. They're running state-of-the art farm machinery. The bash-it-with-a-hammer breed are dying out.
Not read a proper review yet, what's the range between charges, and how quick to recharge 50%?
Jaysus, with an RRP of £41K for the entry level all the way up to £79k plus extras I'm most definitely oot.
Anyone with a remotely serious outdoor livelihood who requires a 4x4 will opt for a Mitsubishi Something or a Toyota Landcruiser instead.
Less capable off road than a Jimny? I doubt it very much, i drive an old school ladder frame 4x4 with gnarly tyres and a low range box. As much as I’m loathe to admit it, the modern tech independent suspension and true independent control of power and braking is light years ahead for 99% of people.
As for the MOD propping up sales, forget it, you’re years behind. They were selling 15k old school defenders a year, they’re planning on 100k of these. The MOD and farmers are completely irrelevant.
Jaysus, with an RRP of £41K for the entry level all the way up to £79k plus extras I’m most definitely oot.
Anyone with a remotely serious outdoor livelihood who requires a 4×4 will opt for a Mitsubishi Something or a Toyota Landcruiser instead.
It's £40k for the middle 5 door spec Landcruiser, so not much difference. I guess the LR will be a nicer place to sit but will spend a lot more time at the dealers than the Toyota.
I'll have one like this on steelies please
Ugly, expensive, probably unreliable......
I like it
Land Rover will sell them like hot cakes,
Form an orderly queue
I disagree. If you remove needless thing like electric handbreaks the hold back to easy to fix is basically the manufacturer providing an open interface to their ECU / bcu etc would good documentation so that enthusiast’s can develop their own diagnostic software. Much of the difficulty with modern cars is because unless you have manufacturers software and documentation you don’t have access to lotta of diagnostic information, or the ability to recode a new box or test sensors / actuators.
Why on earth would they want people to mod their cars? Maybe Part of the reason they have a reputation for unreliability is because of all the diy mod s people do.
Can’t do a ladder chassis. Production costs would be astronomical as thhtey’d have to have a dedicated production line and dedicated parts as they wouldn’ Be able to be built on a shared production line and share loads of parts with other models. Plus stuff like crash protection, pedestrian impact protection, actually being able to put a body on it without it standing proud on top of a ladder chassis compromising the design.
It’s a modern car for the modern market.
Bit of a video on Drivetribe...
If you bought one, how long do you think it would be before it was on its way to Russia in a sea container?
Ex-MOD 90 owner here but I wouldn't touch this with a bargepole, it's styled to appeal to the same kind of people who bought Hummer 11 in the USA.
Carwow and Hammond's vid on youtube.
Interestingly the car is not painted its a vinyl coat.
40k for base model and close to 80k for the top spec.
I quite like the look of the 90 but the 110 is more practical family wise. 3.5 tonne towing. 900kg in the boot and 300kg on the roof. Option of a "middle" front seat but not sure if or where an air bag would deploy from?
Wonder if it will affect the disco and rangie prices?
the configurator is on LR's website, I specced a base 110 with silver paint, black roof, standard everything inside, sump bash plate, plastic wheel arches and 'chequer plate', it looked nice but it ended up at £51k!
Im sure its going to be massively capable both on and off road and has slotted in nicely where Disco 3&4 would have continued to had it not morphed into the jelly mould Discovery5 but I dont think its base spec is anywhere near as rugged as a Jimny, LC, G wagen Professional.
Over to you now Jim Ratcliffe......
Is the 110 with a matching expedition trailer just the thing to finally "one-up" those pesky nextdoorers with their fancy T6 California??
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Bruder Trailer is £55k alone btw!
https://newatlas.com/bruder-exp-6-trailer/43918/
the configurator is on LR’s website, I specced a base 110 with silver paint, black roof, standard everything inside, sump bash plate, plastic wheel arches and ‘chequer plate’, it looked nice but it ended up at £51k!
Must try harder, I just managed to spec mine to £85k but selecting everything (including smoking pack!)
Can’t do a ladder chassis. Production costs would be astronomical as thhtey’d have to have a dedicated production line and dedicated parts as they wouldn’ Be able to be built on a shared production line and share loads of parts with other models. Plus stuff like crash protection, pedestrian impact protection, actually being able to put a body on it without it standing proud on top of a ladder chassis compromising the design.
It’s a modern car for the modern market.
I agree with your final assertion but not particularly how you got to it. JLR have chosen to move away from ladder chassis for sensible business reasons of weight, on road refinement and cost. But that move has, IMO, taken the brand away from its utilitarian roots to the point that it’s just trading on an image. Jeep have kept the Wrangler on a ladder chassis with live axles because their main market demographic values the pedigree of a real ‘off roader’ in the line up, even if the rest of the range are just ‘modern cars for a modern market’. The Jimny is built on live axles and a chassis because it’s a cheap and reliable way to get real off road ability, albeit at the cost of the road manners that drivers of expensive modern cars expect.
So yes, the new defender is a modern car for a modern market, but that’s because it’s been specified by stylists, market researchers and accountants. It’s just another jelly mold car with some fancy electronics to justify its ‘premium off roader’ price tag.
It’s of no interest to me.
Yeah but in reality, it’s not going to be £40-£80k is it. It’s going to be £399-£800 a month for most buyers in their new financed whip 😉
I expect to see these all over the place, mostly parked badly on kerbs or zigzags whilst picking up little tommy, who can't possibly walk to school as it's raining.
Having read some of your thoughts, and satisfied a few of mine....
I too would have liked to have seen more use of recycled materials like plastic panels and door skins and the like. Kept the interior basic to the point of jet washable, spec’d them all with steel wheels and a luggage rack on the roof. Essentially, basic Dacia Duster spec.
That way owners can buy aftermarket parts/wheels etc. To do what they like with the basic spec. Return it to its grass roots. As is it’s an oddly placed similar spec to an Ewok/Discovery Sport/RR Sport with a little more off road capability... and the Disco and RR are very capable vehicles in their own right.
So, where does this slot in? Size wise it’s similar to a Disco Sport so Waitrose car parks will be similarly rammed white line-to-white line...
All I’m really saying I guess is “what’s the point of it?”
Who will be the first to own one and put an “one life-live it” sticker on the rear window?
🤷♂️🤪
I like it, but it's a bit too 'nice' to be a working vehicle. Plastic body panels, washable interior and ditch the electronics I might have been more interested - I’d still want it comfy with aircon and auto box mind.
Be interesting to see what Projekt Grenadier comes up with though I can’t help feeling the name is a bit too pretentious to come up with a Defender competitor.
ta11pau1
Subscriber
I expect to see these all over the place, mostly parked badly on kerbs or zigzags whilst picking up little tommy, who can’t possibly walk to school as it’s raining.
You officially won the 4x4 cliches game, thanks for playing. Coming up after the break, we talk to Giant about their new 27.5 wheel size which is apparently going to revolutionise mountain cycling.
I'm not really a fan of the concept. The biggest draw of a proper land rover to me is the simplicity and adaptability. The new one might be technically incredible, but if I can't take it to bits and see how it works then I'm just not interested.
Thing is, land rover don't care what I think. No matter what they had brought out, I was never going to buy a new one anyway. If I had £40k going spare I'd go on holiday for a year, not buy a car!
They'll probably sell loads of them, though I can't help but wonder if they will be taking sales from other areas in their own product range. It doesn't seem utilitarian enough to occupy a different niche from the likes of the Discovery.
I can't see the local farmers taking one on instead of the near-ubiquitous Ford Ranger either. The Ranger starts at half the price of the Defender. Incidentally, I went to check the price of the Ranger and it's listed without VAT, where the Defender is listed including VAT. Even the advertised pricing shows who is really expected to buy the new Defender.
I want one, The spec I want comes to 60K for a 110SE with 7 seats. Will probably go to have a look at one when the local dealer gets one and I am home.
Regarding cost, remember Jeep Wrangler starts at £46k so Defender pricing not OTT
I too am interested in what Grenadier comes up with.
As others have said, a simple interior, bolt on bits, sheep in the boot would have been true to the MK1 and 2. I'm hoping that Grenadier might be this.
The last 20 years, particularly the last decade, have shown that the market is bigger and more profitable outside of a sheep farmer or two. Families with money, image drives everything and no-one owns a car, they make monthly payments. This is where the new Defender is aimed.
It always amazes me how many people don't understand what a "ladder chassis" is actually used for!
(hint, it's nothing to do with "off roading" or "beam axles" or anything like that......)
Gotta say I like it, was messing about on the configurator thingy last night, playing it as if I'd actually buy it and keeping it sensible D240 HSE specced with afew options was at 70k! Bloody expensive, love the looks in green with a white roof/steels though
As someone who thinks premium suv's are the sign of a wrong 'un I have to admit, they've nailed it.
Love the fact it's still hugely capable off road but they actually have to sell a few of these, so it was never going to be like the old one.
I like the looks, apart from the over busy front panel.
The commercial range could be interesting - ditch the toys, simplify and the prices might be slightly more realistic.
They'll all get fantastic reviews, sell like crazy and never ever break down.🙂
Did someone mention something about the paint being vinyl? As in a posh wrap?
Why on earth would they want people to mod their cars? Maybe Part of the reason they have a reputation for unreliability is because of all the diy mod s people do.
Its not just modding the car, its being able to have the data / information available to repair the car yourself. Right to repair. It should not only be dealerships that are able / allowed to repair your car. I now there is a bit of attitude on here by some that you should just rent / lease replace often with car but the vehicle need to go on for a long time afterthe initial owner.
It always amazes me how many people don’t understand what a “ladder chassis” is actually used for!
Genuine question - what is it used for? I had never heard the term before this thread.
It's how cars used to be made. Until everyone else realised that monocoques were better in every way except you can't replace it when it rusts through in months.
Made in Slovakia by an Indian company. Just smell the history it's name has.
It looks like a Mini Countryman to me. I'm not sure whether that's a criticism or not.
Genuine off road ability isn't actually important for how they will be used, but it is important for selling this as a 'salt-of-the-Earth' machine.
A lot of people, myself included, think Range Rovers (and to a lesser extent, but definitely still) Discoveries are a bit hoity-toity and completely vulgar / unnecessary but I still like the look of old Defenders. If JLR can convince people like me to buy these new ones then they're onto a winner. I'm not sure they've won me over but I'll be interested to see how this all pans out.
Bruder Trailer is £55k alone btw!
https://newatlas.com/bruder-exp-6-trailer/43918/
/blockquote>*adds Bruder trailer to lottery-win list*
A few members of the local LR enthusiast group just popped in as we occasionally do some bits for them so I canvassed opinions, was surprised to find that they all really rate it (based on first impressions not having actually driven one obviously!)
^^ are they pleased that JLR are actually making the thing? or they think it's a decent vehicle that they may buy?
Anyway.. the carwow review mentioned that the panels have a Wrap on them, and it that gets scratched they can whip it off and put another Wrap on it.
Which is a good idea.. shame they panels aren't recycled plastic..
I like it due to the fact it's nothing like the old Defender as that was a terrible, hateful thing.
both, although given the cost there was some reservation about buying one then actually driving it of-road 😃 I was surprised that the most popular LR is actually a Disco rather than the classic Defender.^^ are they pleased that JLR are actually making the thing? or they think it’s a decent vehicle that they may buy?
6 seats in a compact easy drive space, wipe down interior, commanding driving position, name brand life style vehicle... If ever a car was designed for the school run brigade, this is it.