[Closed] New car - Tesla M3 or Kia E Niro?

As a convicted petrol head I feel almost ashamed to admit I bought an electric car. It is a very early Nissan Leaf and possibly the cheapest in the UK because it only had 60% battery capacity and had pensioner beige velour interior.

I bought it because most my journeys are to the train station or the local shops and I still have a 600bhp V8 Supercharged alternative for longer trips. That has been on trickle charge on the drive since I bought the damn leaf.

Don't get hung up on range. Your short trips are irrelevant as you will charge between those. You can charge at each end of your middle distance trips. Treat yourself to a hired big van / camper / car for the Cornwall trip with the money you save in tax, fuel etc.

I am becoming worrying like an electric car evangelist but just to point out I am not totally converted, who the frik pays £38,000 for a top end Nissan Leaf?!?!?!? The petrol equivalent Nissan Note is less than 1/2 that price

The Tesla Supercharging infrastructure does make longer journeys much easier, as you'd have access to all the chargers the e-niro has plus the Tesla ones, which are also factored into any sat nav routing.

The Model 3 Boot isn't very bike friendly but I think you can get towbar sorted, but that might have lease implications.

Thanks both. I had already though of leasing something interesting for the Cornwall trip, although we have the other car and roof box, so probably not necessary. The supercharging network is a definite bonus, forgot to add that to the original post. For local rides I'd be happy with one of those roof mount sucker affairs and as if I could get it in the car with wheels and pedals off for a longer journey then so be it. I assume a roof mounted bike would knock around 30% off the range at motorway speeds.

I've not done many journeys with my bike on the roof with a Rockbro's sucker rack (I've got a Model S) but yeah it does trash the range and the confidence in the prediction of range, but short journeys would be fine.

From my brief looks I'd assumed the salon boot made it tricky even with the wheels/pedals off, but sounds like the colleagues have actually tried it rather than just eyeballed it like me 🙂

I think the boot opening is a bit better than the S, this is a 26er carrera HT in a M3

https://photos.app.goo.gl/P6qwCYdZpvYzePsV8

Unsure why you'd consider a car that can fit bikes in my removing wheels AND pedals...with that amount of effort it won't happen, just get a rack and carry them on roof or off the back.

We were on the waiting list for an e-Niro but pulled out late last year as the boot was smaller than we really needed.

Very tempted by Tesla but waiting to see what the Y is like in the flesh.

@DickBarton We already do depending on the car, but only for long trips. A roof mount sucker system for journeys withing range would be preferable.

Sadly the Y is not on the list.

The lease deals seem to be better on the Tesla as well. I don't know if your scheme means that will directly benefit you.

Model S has the bigger boot, just front wheel off, no images of the bike in there but here's a sinclair c5 in there for scale

The Y won't be available in the UK for quite a while yet. Perhaps why it's not on the list. Do you really have to remove pedals to get a bike in a 3? As above that would seem like a pain in the arse to me.

Also as noted above range only counts when you are using it all in a day, since you'll start each day charged. And on a longer day if you can fit the necessary charge in to your day without inconvenience, which I think is usually doable if such days are not frequent for you, and a piece of cake if you've got a Tesla, then you get to the stage that on those days it doesn't really matter either.

One thing to note about EV range is how winter consumption differs to summer (a good 10% off I'd say, and more if raining, more still if multiple journeys between which you let the battery cool down). Another is that you'll generally only charge it to 90% and you won't feel comfortable running it really low.

That all said I love our EV (Model S). Absolutely no regrets here so far although I'm only 20k miles in. Quiet, comfy, clean, really convenient just having a car that's always charged, and one pedal driving is oh so nice.

NB Teslas in generally and the Model 3 in particular do use less energy per mile than pretty much anything else out there of comparable size, and tend to charge at higher kW. So when considering two cars of different range, consider at the same time how many miles per hour/minute plugged in you get. You might find the supercharger stop to be so short for your realistic journeys that you've only time for a quick pee and a nosey at Waitrose before you're on the road again.

I went for an E-tron 50 as the price on a lease was far less that a Tesla and not much more than Nero.

If you get a Tesla Model 3 you have to spec the tow bar from new which costs £1k...its not retrofittable. Not sure if you can get any aftermarket ones but I'm sure Tesla wont like that and would probably invalidate any warranty. You might be able to fit a bike in the boot of a M3 but doesn't mean you should routinely...what's it like getting it in and out, what level of disassembly is required and what if the bike is caked in mud and you've been riding through horse crap? bikes are better on the outside of cars for convenience and lack of faff. Also if you're going with a riding buddy and have to take two people and two bikes you're stuffed.

My preference would be tow bar with bike rack but you can get a roof rack.

I took a M3 for a test drive earlier in the year - the standard plus. Was nice enough but crappy finance options put me off Tesla and the take it or leave it sales. They don't stand a chance when you can get upwards of £10k off a car anywhere else without even trying and if you time it right potentially more and near as damn it interest free financing options. Appreciate in this case it's company car in this case so not an issue.

Have driven to France twice (from Yorkshire) in our Model 3. Both times with bikes on the back on a towbar. Carrying bikes trashes range but it's still fun and still far enough to not be stopping all the time. Winter, wind and lashing storms all have an effect. But we have not run out yet and it's super comfy inside whilst the storm rages outside. Long distance driving is noticeably less wearing than our old van. Also the range tracking is great and adjusts for conditions as you drive so you have a good overview of when you will need to charge.

Teslas are from California so they have a similar attitude to weather proofing to Santa Cruz / Giro but no deal breakers so far.

Their tech is light years ahead of everyone else - the software updates regularly add features and we downloaded one last year that increased the range and power. I had to write an article about connected cars recently and ended up feeling that basically the Tesla is going to make after market telematics stuff obsolete pretty quickly.

I'm driving an M3, it is a great car if its in your price range, but its not obviously an outdoors / MTB persons car being a saloon car. The tech and performance is fantastic but the boot opening is small. If you have to do lots of long distance journeys then the tesla supercharger network trumps everything else, if not then the e niro SUV / hatchback practicality might be better suited to a mountain biker. I'm blown away with it all, but quite honestly I could probably happily manage without all the autopilot, go kart driving, techy Apple phone type stuff. Ultimately I'll probably get a Nissan leaf or similar, the M3 with its big range is just to let myself in gently to the electric car thing.

I’m buying the Tesla myself. I’ve had a good poke around the alternatives, and really want to buy an I-Pace as I’m a bit of a Jaguar fan.

However, I employed as a 100% mobile IT consultant, so I need to be able to travel all over the country, and stay in hotels a lot. The Supercharger network makes this possible, whereas the public charge network, at the moment, would be a bit of a headache.

If I just had a regular commute to the same place, then I’d have an I-Pace. Was impressed by the E-Niro and the Hyundai Kona. They’re strong candidates to replace our second car which is the school/shopping tool.

So what you're all saying is that Tesla need to make an estate car and T4 sized people carrier?

They do. It’s called the Model X 🙂

Whatever powers it, extra height and size generally will harm consumption per mile substantially, and therefore range. I just wish they'd designed the Model 3 with a hatch boot opening. Sticking a bike or two in an S is fine, but the price of the car isn't! A standard range Model 3 with a hatch boot would be a great car.

I prefer bikes inside for efficiency. Maybe a bit for security too.

On autopilot, for Long motorway journeys I really like it. I don't 'like' driving like some people seem to. It's just a means to an end to me. In certain conditions, coincidentally those in which I usually find myself, it can make a material difference to that job. But you have to accept that the tech has only got as far as it has. It does some odd things and you absolutely 100% do not stop concentrating. But in my view you can concentrate differently and once you get used to it you can get real benefit from that.

I picked up a Tesla M3 about a fortnight before lockdown through my work lease scheme. I have barely driven it but I had to collect from Leeds and drive home to Newcastle so got a good stint in it immediately. It is a fantastic car and a joy on long journeys - my wife has a 320i and it makes the BMW feel pretty agricultural to drive!

I (used to) do quite a bit of driving for work - mainly regional stuff in North of England and Tesla was the only car that would work from a charging infrastructure perspective - this was the real deal breaker for me. A colleague has the i-Pace and whilst it is a lovely thing the charging network for everything else is just not there yet.

As noted above, the M3 is one of the most efficient EVs out there and whilst you would never get the quoted range unless you drove at 25 mph with nothing turned on, they are pretty good compared to the competition. The very slippery body of the M3 also means wind noise is very low at motorway speeds.

It's not without its drawbacks though. Main one, as above, is the saloon format. I can't quite fathom why it is not a hatchback - it even looks like a hatch with the high back end (another problem the high back end causes is the rear view mirror points up a little). Build quality is not there yet sadly.. my rear left light cluster (the one where the charge port is!) has got a silly amount of condensation in it.. quite common I have heard and not replaced until it gets much worse which is disappointing. The fit of some of the panels is not perfect either.. mainly around the doors and front end and (this is worst bit) my steering wheel is not quite on straight.. this is concerning when the car will hit 60mph in 3.2s and the bloody wheel aint on straight! There is no servicing at the moment through the work lease scheme but I intend to get this looked at ASAP once things are up and running.

Overall I love the car and it is light years ahead of anything else on the market IMO. The view out the front is amazing due to the long sweeping windscreen, uncluttered dash and very low front end. I am an absolute petrol head through and through and I'm converted - I sold an M135i to get this and I don't regret it for a second. Harry Metcalfe does a fab review of the M3 here including the charging side of things:

Forgot to add - those sea sucker things are a no-go due to the glass roof. I looked into it and don't think it is worth the risk - cases of cracked/broken glass when people have used them. We have a towbar rack and roof racks on my wifes car which will still be used for mountain bike duties. I couldn't spec the Tesla towbar when I ordered mine and subsequently found out it is not an option on the Performance model. I may buy the Tesla roof bars in the future.. will see how things go.

When I was doing the research 18 months ago the eNiro and Kona were silly waiting times after order, is this still the case?

Thanks all!

@nickewen Hmm, not sure I'm 100% happy with the seasucker type carriers after a bit more research. I saw the fully charged review of the M3 after 10,000 km and Kryton mentioned there were issues with rear screens on a batch of them. Seasucker have changed their install instructions and now say the rear sucker needs to go on the boot lid.

This guy has an XL SC (me too) and it fits with 1 wheel off, which I have to do in my 3 series touring now.

I think I can get it with the hitch installed as another guy at work has has but maybe not. I liked his rear carrier too, are there any UK ones that hold the wheels like that?

@B.A.Nana I think it's down to 26 weeks now.

They do. It’s called the Model X

And they’re bloody big! Didn’t have a chance to play with the one that came into work, the keys were locked away, so not sure how the rear seats fold away, but it looks like a couple of bikes with wheels on but seats pushed down would be doable; that might also depend on the number of seats specced, there’s a six or seven seat option, maybe five as well?
But, and it’s a big but, it’s a bloody expensive car, which is why we didn’t get to play with it. ☹️

CountZero
Subscriber

And they’re bloody big! Didn’t have a chance to play with the one that came into work, the keys were locked away, so not sure how the rear seats fold away, but it looks like a couple of bikes with wheels on but seats pushed down would be doable; that might also depend on the number of seats specced, there’s a six or seven seat option, maybe five as well?
But, and it’s a big but, it’s a bloody expensive car, which is why we didn’t get to play with it. ☹️

I had cause to put a hefty old e-bike, the "leisure" kind with weirdly long stays and the weight of a tank, into a Model X recently. It went in with masses of room to spare with the seats down. It's a pretty standard format car as far as dropping the back seats is concerned, and is huge.

Not sure what seat option it was, but I think the back row drops flat whatever.

Just checked the Kona is cheaper than the E-tron 50 the Niro is more expensive I’d check out.

I hired the petrol equivalent Kona in the US last time I was there. I’m looking for something smaller than our crv next time, but the boot is rather small. Interior is rather plastic too, but that would not be the deal-breaker.

@B.A.Nana I think it’s down to 26 weeks now.

All comments are pre coronavirus, but Model3 lead times were weeks rather than months which is in part why I ended up with one, as M3 and eNiro are both high range, which is what I wanted as a newbie intro, the M3 was available, the eNiro was a 12 month lead time.
I'll probably continue with the M3 for summer 2020, but I think I plan to have an ID.3, Elborn, Leaf or something similar which will suite me better.

It was nice while it lasted.
I suspect the M3 will become the next Audi, middle manager /senior sales rep mobile.

Decision made...by my 4 year old. Tesla with a tow hitch now ordered. Hopefully the bikes / storage box on a tow ball carrier shouldn’t affect range too much.

Thanks all.

@jsync

Have you got the car yet?

Pondering a model 3 with a towbar at the moment. It's a big leap of faith. 😬

I've a M3 LR with towbar. Supposedly 55kg weight limit for bike and racks on the back. If you are careful with packing you can get loads of stuff in.

pictonroad
Subscriber
@jsync

Have you got the car yet?

Pondering a model 3 with a towbar at the moment. It’s a big leap of faith. 😬

Not yet, mine is due end of October. Someone at work has the same one though.

I've just put an order in for a Kia Soul, same drive train and battery as the e Niro and Kona. The Tesla wasn't an option on the list for the choice I had.

@jsync

Have you got the car yet?

Pondering a model 3 with a towbar at the moment. It’s a big leap of faith. 😬

What are your main concerns?

the M3 is one of the most efficient EVs out there and whilst you would never get the quoted range unless you drove at 25 mph with nothing turned on,

Drive with the trucks on the motorway, around town or along European main roads with 80-90kmh limits and you'll get the claimed NEDC figure or very close in Summer whatever the electic car you chose based on conversations with drivers on charge points. With the air-con on eco we usually get 380km out of Zoé rather than the 395km NEDC. Winter is another matter, a rainy night at 2°C will knock 20% off that and more if you want the cabin warm enough to take your coat off. A model 3 long range on the charger before us on a Polish motorway left with 435km showing with a not quite full battery.

A big downside of the E-Niro IMO is the undersized onboard charger of only 7KW. The vast majority of charge points in many countries are still Type 2 AC 22kW on which the Kia will only charge at 7kW. That means about 6 hours for 40kWh of battery compared with 2hours for a Tesla (or even a humble Zoé).

The Tesla Super Charger network is a real plus if you want to do more than commute.

Another Tesla plus is their charge management which is kind to the battery and will lead to long life. The initial fast charge Leafs suffered rapid battery deterioration and I suspect Kias risk the same with charge rates beyond the magic 1kW max charge rate per 1kWh of battery capacity. The Tesla we saw charging on a very hot day having been run on the motorway was charging at only 37.5kW, very sensible.

A big downside of the E-Niro IMO is the undersized onboard charger of only 7KW.

Next year's e-niro apparently does 3 phase, although only to 11kw so it's not that much of an improvement. That said, this tends not to be a problem in the UK as there aren't that many chargers that only do 22kw; chargers here tend to be 7kw destination chargers or 50kw+ rapids. 22kw AC is fairly common as as socket on a rapid that also does higher power DC.

We've just swapped to an ioniq which is the same; I can think of one journey we do where we used to stop at a 22kw charger, but there are other options and the number of rapids is increasing all the time so it will become even less of a problem in time.

Was Polestar not on your list ?

To be fair only fully electric car for long distances I would get at the moment would be a Tesla.

I keep meaning to do a test of my BMW to see how it does with 2 bikes and roof box on. I bet it will do half the range, and worse at motorway speeds

Why did the design the front of the Tesla 3 on Nigel Farage?

On consumption, now I've done a few thousand miles of summer driving as well as lots of winter, I think the difference between the seasons is even greater. In the big heavy Model S it's quite common to see the display showing an average of under 250Wh/mile over 30 miles of local driving in summer conditions. That would equate to 400 mile range if I maintained it. I don't, of course, but at a gentle motorway 300Wh/mile I'd still only be 10% under WLTP. For winter, I'd add more than 10% to even long journey consumption numbers and short journey consumption would be through the roof higher.

On over range days, there's a real double whammy comparing Model 3 with alternatives, in that it charges at (I think) 150kW at Superchargers. Non Tesla in the UK remains, for now, mostly 50kW less some losses. So your miles added per minute charging could be 3-4 times greater in Model 3 over an alternative.

Model S won't go to 150kW but it still seems bloody quick. That said, yesterday saw my first supercharger stop since march so it's an uncommon experience for me. I didn't need the charge really, just fancied a rest and a better arrival estimate than 20%. In the 18 mins I spent to buy some basic provisions, have a pee and read a few emails it added about 70 miles range, and that was at a fairly paltry 70kW (battery at a fairly high %age reduces charging speed).

What are your main concerns?

carrying four bikes

Boot size,

The state of the electrics in my house and the inevitable sucking through the teeth when the installation team arrive to fit a charger.

Having to learn to like coffee for something to do when it's charging.

The fact I live in a triangle of the country with zero superchargers.

This has become a forum for such privileged people. What company car should I choose? What should I do about my cleaner? I would have thought such intelligent people could make these decisions for themselves or is it some sort of penis extension bragging?

I'm keeping our old trusty Volvo going till electric cars fall into my price bracket but if I had the money to spend on a new car it would be a Tesla. We regularly do the long run to Perpignan but would quite happily do it in a Tesla and often see UK plated cars on their chargers all the way down.

wheelsonfire1 you want some fish to go with that chip on your shoulder?

As for privileged who's the one bragging about 1/2 acre garden/woodland in the what chipper thread.

1/2 an acre was actually cheap as chips when we bought it and still is up in the north. How the dickens do you track posts? I can’t even track posts that I’ve written!

What are your main concerns?

carrying four bikes

Allan sports do towbar and boot mounted 4 bike racks I believe available on amazon maybe, I've no idea how bad the range is hit with 4 bike frames strapped to the back (I presume taking wheels off would help)

Boot size,

5 large banana boxes size I believe (Bjorn Nyland). obviously with 4 people in you can't drop the back seats but you'd defo fit 4 front wheels and 4 ikea blue bags full of 4 peoples biking kit in the boot boot (plus you have a small front boot as well).

The state of the electrics in my house and the inevitable sucking through the teeth when the installation team arrive to fit a charger.

I had a similar problem, my consumer unit was old style fuses that when they blew you just put a new bit of wire in. I had the whole consumer unit upgraded but it wasn't silly money (small house). They left an rcd or whatever for an electric shower cable which then became my ev point (went mixer rather than electric shower). I also have a new cutout installed by the DNO (that's free) before the smart meter installers will touch it.

Having to learn to like coffee for something to do when it’s charging.

If you're talking tesla then you can sit and watch netflix / youtube or you can play video games, all on the big screen. I've found public charging is not a chore at all and passes quickly. My car's IP address appears to be in Spain, so I can watch all sorts of British TV shows that presumably due to copyrights I can't get on youtube on my laptop or TV with a UK IP address.
NB bear in mind you have to pay for subscriptions to stuff like netflix and spotify, I think the tesla over the air service is going to stop being free soon as well. you can still do music and free spotify from your phone tho and may be able to use your phone as a wifi hotspot to tether to the car and use your phone data, I'll have to cross that bridge when it comes.

Don't forget that a chunk of your charging if not most of it will be at home during the night, if you get your electrics sorted.

The fact I live in a triangle of the country with zero superchargers.

Same here, having one nearby might be nice I suppose, but really the main point of them is for long distance motorway journeys. The idea is Local journeys should be all possible from you're home charger (or in my case currently, one of 7 local free public rapid chargers on my commute).

On the living near a supercharger thing, how far away are they? I reckon ideal is about 1.5 hours from home along your common route, that way it might be a useful stop on a long journey home. Much closer and you're fairly unlikely to want to use it anyway.

On shonky electrics and charging at home, a 16A commando socket might be an easy and cheap circuit to fit if you're having trouble or want something temporary. I'm a year in and still don't have a proper charge point at home.

On having to like coffee for something to do when charging, beware. I like coffee but am a snob, so I hate Starbucks.

or in my case currently, one of 7 local free public rapid chargers on my commute).

Are they on Chargemap or Plugshare? If not where are they and how do you get access? I'm planning a trip to the UK once Covid has settled down and preferably before 31/12 when things get more complicated for us foreigners.

Zap-map has a filter for free chargers Edukator I’ve one around the corner from me that’s free it usually depends on local authorities.

Zap-map then, thanks, Drac.

Are they on Chargemap or Plugshare? If not where are they and how do you get access?

Quite a few local councils have done a deal with Engie using national funding. https://ev.engie.co.uk/ this is where you register, link to the map is at the top and bottom of the page. All are free to use until Oct 2021
Drac is right about zap-map however weeks ago I added the details of a new local Engie charger and zap-map have done sod all about adding it on.

Thanks B.A.Nana, I signed up to Engie and I'm now fine if I go to Yorkshire (which seems to be the only area covered), I need to researche other areas.

It takes them ages to add new chargers.

Kia is off the lease list now. Down to a top of the range Leaf+ or bottom of the range tesla.

Tesla is £750 a year more.

A great choice to have but a tough one!

Major factor putting me off the tesla is no apple car play for podcasts. Back to bluetooth streaming. 👎🏻

Are you prepared to support the UK car industry?

Decent point, yes, I suppose so.

Also just discovered that the tesla is £20 extra a month tax because it's over £40k. Not something I would normally need to know, my hilux is 24yrs old and cost £3k...😬

I dont know much about the Kia, but my Model X is great and if the 3 is of a similar build then i know what i would do.

It takes a bit of getting used to, but once you get into the swing of charging mid trip, its not bad....a quick loo break and some lunch and you can soon pass half an hour.

Their fast charging network is growing all the time too.

I think I’d rather have this than the Tesla...
https://hypebeast.com/2020/8/aviar-r67-1967-ford-mustang-tesla-model-s-electric-car-ev-custom-built-classic-muscle-car

Are you prepared to support the UK car industry?

Exactly how many electric cars are being mass-produced in the U.K.? Enquiring minds would like to know...

The Leaf which is one of the OP's stated options.

I think I'm pretty close to going for an e-Niro '4'. Pre-reg so a small discount, but still eye-watering as I've only ever bought second-hand before. Got a 3.5-year PCP offer which I feel instinctively wrong about, or I can afford (I think!) a 5 year HP deal on it.

Wanted to wait a couple more years or so before doing this so that there was a second-hand market but some rotter stole my Octavia estate. Half of me's like "do PCP, then move onto hopefully something a bit bigger by then" and the other half doesn't trust that and thinks that after 5 years I'll still do alright selling it on and if not I can just drive it for years more.

It'd be smaller on storage than we're used to which would be fine a lot of times but means a range-sapping roof box on some trips and/or bikes up there on the rack too. Most of the time I'd be able to chuck my bike in the back with the seats down though I think, I normally don't ride with the family.

It defies physics and stuff, but yet another half of me is like "just put the insurance settlement on a second-hand Civic estate or something you idiot, save the money for exciting things like decorating the bedrooms".

Huh, now this thread's made me realise I could also get a Tesla M3 with a tow hitch for the same kind of monthly cost but over 6 years. I don't know if I want to even think about that.

Ordered an Audi E-tron last week through the missus work, some daft deal where it was actually cheaper to lease than a Ford Fiesta, including the charger, maintenance, tyres and insurance!

Get the Tesla M3 with a tow hitch. Never had a car this simple or fun.

That choice is so easy: Tesla. Nicer than the eNiro  in every way except for the boot vs hatchback.

Supercharger network makes long journeys a pleasure. Even if you do have to pay for the electricity with a model 3.

without the (factory fitted) tow hitch you can ‘post’ 2 bikes into the car through the boot if you take at least the front wheels off.

edit. Saw the eNiro was off the list. Unsurprising, likely none available. Model 3 over the Leaf too. Leaf is good, but Tesla is bigger, simpler on the inside, and more convenient. Bluetooth works well. And if you want, you can pay ~£10/month on the SR+ to get Spotify, TuneIn, and included 4G.

I’ve driven all three + the IPace. So has my SO. model 3 won out.

And if you want, you can pay ~£10/month on the SR+ to get Spotify, TuneIn, and included 4G.

Bear in mind you need to have a premium Spotify account to use in a Tesla, so that's another £10/month (unless you wangle 6 month free trials). Then you might want Netflix so that's another £5/month or whatever level you choose. So, it starts to get quite pricey if you want all the entertainment. I believe you could use your phone as a hotspot and use the phone data, which (if you have the spare data) I think gives you the same as Tesla Premium Connectivity except sat nav satellite maps and live traffic data.
Obv. if you don't want to pay then you can still bluetooth stuff from your phone.
Also for people who have all their music and podcasts with Apple, apparently siri works really well for this sort of use.

Ordered an Audi E-tron last week through the missus work, some daft deal where it was actually cheaper to lease than a Ford Fiesta, including the charger, maintenance, tyres and insurance!

Hopefully 4 more weeks or so for mine to be delivered. 😀