New boiler time - is hive/nest worth it?

Are they really doing 12 yr warranty at the moment? Max we could get last year was 7 yrs on WB

IMO go the full hog and have individual controlled TRV’s . Not sure the point of those systems really in isolation apart from being able to switch on remotely

edit: just read it’s only oil burners that get the pitiful 7 yrs

Loads of threads on this subject with a lot of info/opinions in the past couple of years if you have a Google!

Personally I think our smart heating system is great, I agree though that you really need to go all-out & have smart TRVs on everything to get the maximum benefit & indeed energy cost savings.

smart heating is a pain in the ass when your menopausal wife keeps turning it down on her phone. Password change time I think.

Drayton wiser here with smart trv's on the rads.

Really good. Individual timing, temperature setting and boosting in each room

Drayton wiser here with smart trv’s on the rads.

Same email. also on 5.4.2 on Android and no updates on play store.

Look up the 'heat geek' channel on youtube... Some are better than others but IIRC they don't like the hive system very much, but they have loads of vids on how to optimise your system etc.

But I'm guessing a modern decent boiler would be the best investment you can make currently, if yours is 20+ years old.

I quite like the Hive. Heating is 3 zones, with 3 hives. I've never installed the internet gateway or used the app. They are easy enough to program up directly. The boost button with readily adjustable time temperature is very useful. All rads have traditional trv, obviously set at max in rooms that have a hive.

Tado user.. was a bit of a ball ache to set up but it’s been faultless since.

Smart trv on each rad allows individual room control, auto geofencing and weather insight means it’s not burning energy more than needed

So in short,yes I think it’s worthwhile

weather insight

A boiler with external temp sensor works loads better than that. In our old house we had a Viessmann boiler with external temp sensor and it saved us loads of money

We've got a Nest thermostat. It's erm.....shit.

I'd look at something other than Nest. Drayton Wiser or Tado, perhaps?

Another Tado user and big fan.
Setup was quick and simple for me. Followed the wiring diagram and paired it to the hub.

One thing to note is you need sigal from the hub to each TRV.

I used the graphs of heat to fine tune the timer to only when needed, the fine detail is great.

To get maximum benefit be prepared for some manual intervention. Leaving a room? Turn the heat down. Simple with voice or the app. Going out? Turn it down and back up on your way home.

Saving reports of about 25-30% for us match my historical usage data. That's work from home, now heating only the rooms we need rather than the whole house.

Very happy with it.

We've had a Nest but have recently replaced it. The self learning function was rubbish and seemed to make random changes so got turned off ages ago; it doesn't work with any TRVs or sensors other than the one main unit. The main reason we got it was the geofencing that would turn off the heating when you weren't there, but it never worked reliably. You've got to use a mish mash of the Nest app and the Google Home app which makes little sense.

Hive apparently does not support modulation, which with a compatible boiler can be more efficient; most of the others do.

We've recently changed to Tado; I'm impressed so far. You could spend an absolute fortune on TRVs and wireless sensors but it seems to work well with a couple of TRVs keeping a few specific rooms warm.

If only wanting a couple of smart trvs you need to put them in the rooms you don't use as they can then be isolated. Basically if going for those you need to do the whole house or non at all.

Second the modulation bit. Hive doesn't do that so we will be go for tado next year. All modern boilers should be able to modulate so look up whatever smart stat is compatible with that boiler (there are 2 main systems but some man's do their own). Go with whatever system works and can take smart trvs if that's your bag.

As an aside we had nest in the old house and it's worked fine. Agree that the learning thing is pants. Just turn that off.

How much will 13 smart TRVs set me back fitted?

Shirley the boiler takes care of its own modulation, why does the smarts care?

Make sure you get a boiler that supports heat modulation (Intergas are good), and a controller that supports this (E.g. Honeywell EvoHome). Hive doesn’t support modulation and only turns your boiler on & off. Modulation is key to maximising the benefits of condensing boilers. We just got our system upgraded with EvoHome TRVs on most rads, and Priority Hot Water support. We’ve got flow temperatures in the 40 degree range now (great for condensing) but the boiler goes to 70 degrees twice a day to heat up the hot water tank, but doesn’t send water to the rads while doing so which heats up the hot water much more quickly so the system can get back to 40 degrees for the central heating faster.

Okay so nobody has mentioned the chuffing great elephant in the room - Bosch.

They don't play well with others, I know, I have one (Greenstar 28CDi). The best you'll get is on/off with no modulation and you can forget Opentherm. Options are the Bosch Smartstat or the "dumb" pro stat (it's anything but but definitely not as smart as having individual sensors on TRV's) with external sensor, I'm currently tearing my hair out trying to decide between the two.

I seriously recommend looking at the heatgeek site mentioned before, zoning is actually counter-productive unless you have a big house with actual insulation between zones. They explain the maths in the video.

smart heating is a pain in the ass when your menopausal wife keeps turning it down on her phone. Password change time I think.

+1

Except the opposite. Used to be obvious when the wife was turning the thermostat up because she had to go into the other room to do it. Now the first sign is when I get a hot flush.

Squirrel king - that section of the heat geek is very interesting, I would say though that it is very theoretical and more aimed at heat pump use where zoning can be a very bad idea.
I’m surprised your Greenstar doesn’t modulate and without looking it up I think you may be wrong as nearly every Worcester I’ve installed in the last 15 years or so modulated.

smart heating is a pain in the ass when your menopausal wife keeps turning it down on her phone. Password change time I think.

Or, you know, you just could be a bit more considerate to someone going through a massive physiological change and put a jumper on

I've long disabled the smart/learning features on my Nest but being able to control it when out of the house and turning it on/off & setting temp via Alexa voice commands is handy.

We inherited a nest with our house purchase. Proper shit. I've turned off all the smart stuff and just use it as a normal thermostat I can adjust from my phone. Doesn't integrate with smart Trvs. Would not recommend.

So by the time I’ve had smart trvs fitted it will cost me £1k and the system is a bit shonky.

Sounds like I’ll just buy the mini hive for £70 (that my wife wants) as a posh wireless thermostat I can programme remotely and leave it at that.

Heatable and Boxt were doing some incredible cheap 3 or 5 year pay back deals.
If i was looking at a big expense, with inflation running in double digits, holding onto £2k and finding £40 a month could be advantageous.

As for the smart stuff. I sell it. Some good deals on Hive mini this week.
All the smart trvs are stil quite expensive. You pay more for the box and less for the trvs, or pay less for the box and more for the trvs.

You looking at better rads too?

Look at screw fix for your hive

Yep - my local screwfix has the mini with hub for £70👍

I am contemplating new radiators as mine are old, but my current rethinking is to do that next summer to allow time for proper decoration behind them.

Shirley the boiler takes care of its own modulation, why does the smarts care?

Because the thermostat is telling the boiler what to do as the boiler has no idea what is actually needed, for all it knows it might need to heat up the house by 10 degrees for the next 12 hours, rather than just nudging the temperature 0.5 degrees for a brief time. So with a non-modulating thermostat it's asking for everything or nothing, a modulating thermostat will ask the boiler for what it needs to get to the desired temperature.

I think of it like the boiler being a car and the thermostat being your right foot, the car only does what your right foot tells it. If you want to go from 50-60mph without modulation, you just put the foot flat to the floor and you reach 60, probably overshoot a bit, come back down, and burn a load of fuel in the process, but if your foot modulates what the car does you get to 60 gently, and using much less fuel in the process.

just moved from Nest to Tado and a compliment of smart TRVs.....11 of them, cost about 600 in total after waiting for some cunning offers.

weve used about a thrid of the gas we did last October by just heating the rooms we need when we need it, house. still some tuning to be done as the house is colder on the whole but we were clearly very inefficient in the past. I've loving/hating all the data mind, humidity is an eye opener.

Because the thermostat is telling the boiler what to do as the boiler has no idea what is actually needed, for all it knows it might need to heat up the house by 10 degrees for the next 12 hours, rather than just nudging the temperature 0.5 degrees for a brief time.

So by the time I’ve had smart trvs fitted it will cost me £1k and the system is a bit shonky.

I paid £99 for the Tado and think it was £139 for a pack of 3 TRVs. Just needed 2 packs for our house.

I worked out the payback based on projected savings at something like 8 winter months, pre price hike. It looks like we'll have payback in under 12 calendar months, plus a more evenly heated house.

Worth adding that as opposed to 'dumb' TRVs, the smart ones can call for the boiler to heat a room, rather than just shut the rads, so you can crank a specific room up if you need to.

for 13 rads? what system is that?

Labour? My plumbing always ends in leaks.

We have a hive and I’m just in the process or installing the Hive TRVs in most rooms except the kitchen dinner which is the busiest room in the house which will be controlled by the hive itself.

They are down to £40 quid at Screwfix at the moment. The two I’ve installed already were really straightforward.

We have a Nest and it is rubbish as US centric, its only smart if you have very clear routines. I would go with a Hive or Tado

2.5k is what I was quoted by local indie, bg wanted 3.5k. They both said max out on insulation, like double in loft.

Was hoping for a grant but we don't qualify.

Use the almost broken Nest (dropped it trying to hold it higher as it lost signal to heat link 😂) without the self learning stuff and just set the schedules and remote on and off. Was half tempted to get tado so I can have more independent heating control but will hold off until the Nest gives up.

I can see how all these clever boiler features are a good idea (also weather compensation, external temp sensors etc) might be beneficial without smart TRVs but with them I suspect the differences are pretty negligible.

I don't really see how one could negate the other, and it doesn't have to be an either/or choice, get a smart thermostat that supports modulation and it's a double whammy of benefits.

https://www.heatgeek.com/what-is-boiler-modulation/

I'm with Tenacious_D. Why should you not want a modulating system just because you want smart trvs. In the average house I also challenge the requirement for individual control of rads, unless you really do sit in one room for hours on end. If you have an efficient modulating boiler, the whole house should be able to get to a steady heat when needed. Our house is block throughout and takes a fair bit to earn it up. Once there it's not too bad. I certainly wouldn't want the dining room sitting cold while we heat the living room and all that heat gets sucked away. There's got to be a compromise between efficiency and comfort.

Purchased a hive mini pack for £79 from screwfix today as a black friday deal, set up was easy wiring diagrams not so. Working ok so far.

Why should you not want a modulating system just because you want smart trvs.

unless you really do sit in one room for hours on end.

Was half tempted to get tado so I can have more independent heating control but will hold off until the Nest gives up.

We've actually got both wired up at the moment because I quite like seeing the weather display on the Nest in the hallway, even though it's turned right down as the various Tado bits run the heating now...

@bear

I would say though that it is very theoretical and more aimed at heat pump use where zoning can be a very bad idea.

The maths says it matters just as much with boilers, unless your room is insulated internally then all it's doing is working harder to compensate for the heat losses elsewhere.

I’m surprised your Greenstar doesn’t modulate and without looking it up I think you may be wrong as nearly every Worcester I’ve installed in the last 15 years or so modulated.

Read what I said again, it does modulate but ONLY when playing with other Worcester Bosch hardware, anything else reverts it to basic on/off control.

Worcester boilers don't support opentherm, which basically everything else does. They can modulate using "EMS bus", but hardly anything supports that. The end result is that most Worcester boilers aren't used in a modulating setup unless using Bosch's control stuff which nobody does.

Theoretically Tado does actually support EMS bus, but only if you're using the wireless repeater, and it's only advertised as such in Europe; in the UK it guides you down the route of just using on/off unless you basically figure it out yourself.

Tado got called out on this recently; they said while modulating controls are ubiquitous in Europe they aren't here, so it wasn't worth them supporting EMS bus here given the tiny number of installs.

In the UK everything is driven by selling new boilers; before now nobody has given a crap about efficiency, which is why we've all got basic on/off controls, really high flow temperatures and the least efficient heating systems and houses in Europe.

Theoretically Tado does actually support EMS bus, but only if you’re using the wireless repeater, and it’s only advertised as such in Europe; in the UK it guides you down the route of just using on/off unless you basically figure it out yourself.

Tado got called out on this recently; they said while modulating controls are ubiquitous in Europe they aren’t here, so it wasn’t worth them supporting EMS bus here given the tiny number of installs.

Modulating version is available again! Got to order via the professional shop right now but it's proper UK product again.

Modulating version is available again! Got to order via the professional shop right now but it’s proper UK product again.

I'm a bit intrigued by this... I too read that it was available from their online shop, but I don't know what the difference is... I've heard it said that the normal wireless version does support it, the one I have certainly has the + and - terminals used, apparently there's some configuration you need to do with the "Tado for installers" app but I think mine should be able to do it. I need to have a play at some point, swap it over and see if it still works.

That said, I've turned our flow temperature right down and it seems to still work so far, so it's just using manual instead of automatic modulation instead right now...

I just bought another Tado wireless sensor in the Amazon sale. There's a high risk of the energy bill increases being dwarfed by Tado bits instead.

Interesting! If there's something else out there that supports EMS, even if I need to bugger about with it, I'll add that to my research. Cheers guys.

Do you need an internet connection for it to work properly? That's a red line if you do!

A Bosch (edit Worcester) boiler? Get something with steel innards like a Vaillant or Viessmann.

Or a ‘high’ temp ASHP.

We had hive installed with a new Viessmann boiler last year (before I found out that they made ASHPs this year with up to 70 Celsius output).

Hive is simple. It doesn’t really offer us much more than our old wall-mounted controller did. Unless I’m missing some amazing feature?

Programming complex schedules is a pain. The UX is poor in the app and worse on the thermostat.

Handy being able to say ‘Alexa, turn off/on the heating’. Otherwise much of a muchness.

Edit. Needs internet for the app to work I think.

ours needed a wired connection for power and wired network connection for the hub. No PoE as far as I know.

The thermostat is wireless. But its range to the hub is not great. Eg you can’t take the thermostat more than a couple of rooms away before it starts getting a bit flaky.

Prettygreen - that is not the idea of the high temp from a heat pump, your COP will be terrible and it will be very expensive to run if you are using that as a flow temp all the time. The reason they can do high temp is for the hot water cycle so can run legionaries cycle without a back up heater. The whole idea of a heat pump is to use as low a flow temp as possible to maximise efficiency.

Yeah, that.

Also never had an issue in our ~8 years of Worcester Bosch ownership. Metal != quality. There are plenty of high temp plastics out there that are perfectly good or else you wouldn't be able to move for broken down cars (we'll ignore the big PEX elephant in the room as well).

Do you need an internet connection for it to work properly? That’s a red line if you do!

Yeah, I have an unused Wiser system in its box but it doesn't speak EMS.

If you absolutely must have modulation apparently there’s an adapter available so an OpenTherm controller can talk to an EMS boiler.
https://myboiler.com/opentherm/worcester-bosch-opentherm/