[Closed] New aircraft for The Red Arrows.

"something more exotic?"

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37823554 ]Something from India?[/url]

Whatever in red?

Well given cutbacks possibly these

[img] [/img]

They'll just look further away.

USAF are currently running bids for 'TX' training aircraft with three planes in the running - Hawk dismissed and down to fight between Boeing/Saab, Northrop Grumman and Lockheed with the KAI T-50. MOD will take twice as long to buy a fraction of the number and won't have any pilot instructors...

My money's on more Hawks - British air force, british pilots (plus secondments) with british jets to keep the marketing exercise going

Crikey. I remember them using the Gnat. I feel old.

I guess Typhoons are a bit spendy for the Red Arrows?

P-Jay - Member

I guess Typhoons are a bit spendy for the Red Arrows?

Was just thinking Typhoons or F-35s. Some idiot in government will probably send everything that way and suddenly we'll end up with a display 'team' consisting of 1 aircraft

They should just use some Reapers. It would be cheaper as the pilots could just work from home.

^^ like

[url= http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/tucano.cfm ]this gets my bet [/url]

Much cheapness

Air forces like commonality so I'd imagine that the front runner would be some sort of Hawk, given the Hawk T.2 is used to train RAF pilots. Perhaps an austere version of the T.2 will be developed, which doesn't include all the expensive electronics required to training pilots to fly Typhoons and Lightning IIs but which shares the airframe, engine and as much else as possible with the regular T.2?

Alternatively more and more air forces are using turboprop aircraft for their display teams so perhaps the Red Arrows will do the same. The RAF's Tucanos are being replaced with Beechcraft T-6 Texan IIs so perhaps they'll get a few for the Reds as well as for pilot instruction?

[quote=ChrisL ]Air forces like commonality so I'd imagine that the front runner would be some sort of Hawk, given the Hawk T.2 is used to train RAF pilots. Perhaps an austere version of the T.2 will be developed, which doesn't include all the expensive electronics required to training pilots to fly Typhoons and Lightning IIs but which shares the airframe, engine and as much else as possible with the regular T.2?Commonality and flying-the-flag makes the T2 a dead cert.

[img] [/img]

scotroutes - Member
Commonality and flying-the-flag makes the T2 a dead cert.

T.2s are horrendously expensive, as modern jet fighters are complex beasts and so a complex trainer is required for them. I doubt the RAF could justify acquiring 10+ more for the Red Arrows unless they find some way to make them cheaper. Hence my speculation that an austere version may be one solution.

oh gawwd you just no some nutjob brexiteer is going to start a petition to ask for these

which is apt for our inwards turning society

[img] [/img]

Post Brexit, these.

Actually I don't see the point of the Red Arrows. All they do is blat around making noise and polluting the sky.

[img] [/img]

Go back to being the black diamonds, with Hawker Hunters!

Love the dog outfit....what happens when you say 'smoke on....go!' ??

The Red 'Arras tend to use whatever the RAF is using as a fast Jet training Aircraft

If they get new planes, will that allow them to relax the restrictions on shows over land? Based on the restrictions have come following Shoreham, but part of the concern with Shoreham was aerobatics with aged aircraft.

Obviously there's still worry about flying over residential areas, but they've been restricting even when following the flight line away from the public and flying out over non residential lands (Farnborough for example, flying out over MOD common lands).

These?

[img] [/img]

Four tranche 1 Typhoons? These were ear-marked for retirement soon but I know some are staying on purely in the air-defence role.

That way the Reds would still be flying a partly British aircraft that looks just like the latest models still being built & marketed around the world. Running four of them opposed to 10 probably wouldn't shake the budget up too much and fewer pilots would be needed.

Else, didn't we just order P8's from Boeing 😆

Surely they will just go Amazon or ebay and search for a red drone? Probably end up with a fake version of whatever they want shipped on a slow boat from China and then get hit with import duty and a royal mail handling charge.

Kimbers. Interesting choice of plane with PL983 😉

oh gawwd you just no some nutjob brexiteer is going to start a petition to ask for these

Life goes on Kimbers.

It does, sadly now filled with nutjob brexiteers

@bikebouy have you never seen them at the Dartmouth Regatta ? Wonderful.

Good to hear the team will continue. Hopefully in some decent kit.

P-Jay - Member
I guess Typhoons are a bit spendy for the Red Arrows?

Was just thinking Typhoons or F-35s. Some idiot in government will probably send everything that way and suddenly we'll end up with a display 'team' consisting of 1 aircraft

We could do worse than buy these:

[IMG] [/IMG]

Textron AirLand Scorpion, developed as a minimal cost attack and ISR (Intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) platform, able to carry up to 6200lb of ordnance on underwing pylons

Only problem is it's not a British built aircraft.

Typhoons wouldn't be a very good option for the Red Arrows. Too capable and the capability of the aircraft is not suitable for the type of routines that the Red Arrow's do, which is all about showing off pilot skills and precision flying. There is no skill involved in flying a Typhoon as the pilot doesn't fly it, they simply provide instructions into a computer that flies the aircraft for them leaving the pilot clinging on and grunting like a pig to prevent G-Lock. These slow speed, high G turns you see these gen 5 fighters doing at airshows are simply about raw power, and raw power costs big cash.

Aye, but I'd rather see and hear a typhoon any day! 😀

. There is no skill involved in flying a Typhoon

That explains why just any numpty is a fighter pilot then silly us thinking it takes years of training , it's just a skills day and away they go.

Putin should be laughing Sergei....compare ze air display.com says Russian use front line fighter aircraft, British use clapped out 70s trainer that needs replacing, which shows the of the Air Force best.

Why not just give a Spitfire. That'll wind up the remoaners and those that hate an Independant Britain. 😆

Why not use Spitfires?
Easy to build, easy to maintain, incredible sound, etc.
Introduce modern materials, engine tweaks and they would be a show stopper every time.

Why not use Spitfires?

Cos it's a bit pathetic to be always harking back to our glory days 60 years ago?

@hammyuk, agreed. What a sight that would be, especially if they were all painted up in WW2 style, pilots dress in the correct uniforms with handlebar moustaches.

@mogrim don't be such a misery. Everything country did in the past is a museum why not the Red Arrows, just think of the tourist money.

@mogrim don't be such a misery. Everything country did in the past is a museum why not the Red Arrows, just think of the tourist money.

AFAIK it's only the UK that's obsessed with Spitfires, so there's not much tourist money in it. And as an advert for today's RAF I'd rather the Red Arrows were using something current, not 70 year old technology.

Do the RAF get a discount on the planes they buy for the Red Arrows?

So what are they going to use then Mogrim?
The mix of old and new would be a huge talking point.
Modern revisions to the engines and airframes.
Would make for fast planes with an incredible sound and something unique.
As for there being no obsession elsewhere?
Bollocks - the yanks have more of them than anyone else and actively scour the world buying them up as fast as they can!
The market there and the shows, etc is in the millions.

Still not convinced, although it's a good question (and the source of this thread) what plane they should use. An updated Hawk would seem to be the obvious choice.

There are significant limitation on the operation of warbirds anywhere near built up areas, so it is not very feasible for them to be used as it would impose severe limitations to where they could perform. Also the Red Arrows are a great advert for the UK (all the more important in light of Brexit) and spend most of their time performing around the world doing a great job flying the flag for Britain. The logistics of getting a squadron of Spitfires around the world to perform everywhere in one season would be impossible. And secondly the performance of the aircraft themselves is not good enough. Modern revisions to the engines and airframes? You're effectively talking about the development of a new aircraft type - and that costs hundreds of millions of pounds - and there are no current guidelines about how to actually do this let alone people still alive who can engineer the revisions. We're not talking about some boy racer buying a load of bolt-on bits from Halfords for their Corsa here. You can't just modify aircraft willy-nilly without gong through a thorough and exhaustive airworthiness programme. This is why aircraft are so expensive - the value of an aircraft in terms of it's constituent parts is nothing, the value of an aircraft is in the fact it has cost hundreds of million of pounds/dollars or even billions in the case of some military aircraft, to develop and certify these things.

They have no option but to stick with Hawks, or if they are going to deviate from whatever the RAF are using as their fast jet trainer, then it will be another similar off the shelf trainer.

The market there and the shows, etc is in the millions.

If true then you'd think someone would have done it by now. But they haven't so...

There are plenty alive to do this wobbli - who do you think keeps them flying at the moment and indeed build the new ones that are in the States?
There are multiple new airframes, all of the plans, details, info, etc is still on file and shared around the world.
In fact the Yanks have quite a few modified ones over there for displays, etc as well as huge numbers in private hands. More in fact than we have here!
As for costs - new planes do costs millions due to software, design, computers, etc.
Evolving something that has been around for so long would be small change in comparison.

The Hawk is around forty years old now and the examples used by the Arrows are of 1980s vintage. We need a lead-in trainer to allow student pilots to transition from prop-driven trainers to fast jets. I'm amazed that we haven't developed something in concert with Italy (who will operate F-35s alongside their Typhoons), Germany or Spain.

And Spitfires. Seriously?

Do the RAF get a discount on the planes they buy for the Red Arrows?

Sort of, but they are not bought and flown the same as other RAF aircraft.

Get a load of Albatroses. Albatri?

From the Reds own website:

The Red Arrows have always flown whichever aircraft is in service as the Royal Air Force’s advanced fast jet trainer

but, also..

The Team supports wider British interests overseas by contributing to Defence Diplomacy efforts and promoting British industry. The Hawk aircraft flown by the Team and most of its components are all British made. During international tours the Red Arrows demonstrate both British skill and British technology to millions of people.

So potential conflict if the RAF move away from Hawks for basic training but easy decision so long as they continue to use them

New squadron of these would be the ideal compromise really:

[img] [/img]

Can invert, could charge for passenger rides, win!

There are significant limitation on the operation of warbirds anywhere near built up areas

Reds current jets are around 30 years old, when do they qualify for the same restrictions?

CountZero - Member
We could do worse than buy these:

<Picture of a Textron AirLand Scorpion>

Textron AirLand Scorpion, developed as a minimal cost attack and ISR (Intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) platform, able to carry up to 6200lb of ordnance on underwing pylons

Only problem is it's not a British built aircraft.

I think the Scorpion is a very interesting aircraft and a concept that seems to have some validity. However its point of origin is not its only problem as a replacement for the Red Arrows' Hawks.

First off the Scorpion is optimised for low operating costs and high loiter time, not manoeuvrability and other aspects useful for a display aircraft and trainer. This was acknowledged by Textron when they initially entered or thought about entering the competition for a new jet trainer for the USAF - new (shorter) wings and other modifications would be required to the current Scorpion.

Secondly, even given the Scorpion is designed for low operating costs, maintaining a single squadron for the Red Arrows would be expensive as it would still require a complete logistics chain that would not be common with any of the RAF's other squadrons. The RAF has spent quite a lot of time trying to reduce the number of types of aircraft it deploys in order to save money (e.g. the early retirement of the Jaguar and the Harrier) so I doubt they'd be keen on making a special case for the Red Arrows, at least not more so than they do now (as they're the only RAF unit operating Hawk T.1s these days).

Finally (and this may not be a good reason, but I suspect it is a strong reason), we've already got a fast jet trainer for the new few decades (the Hawk T.2) so the RAF wouldn't be able to buy it in bulk for training and the Red Arrows without throwing away the money invested in their new Hawks. Culturally I think it'll be a very, very hard sell to persuade any Western air force that they should cut back their orders of very shiny advanced jets like the Typhoon or the F-35 in order to buy some cheap "good enough for low intensity conflicts" jets, no matter that they probably would get more of them and they'd be fine for most of what air forces are doing these days. Air forces are obsessed with high tech and I suspect it'd also be a bit of a morale hit if pilots knew they were being assigned planes bought purely for cost reasons.

PJM1974 - Member
The Hawk is around forty years old now and the examples used by the Arrows are of 1980s vintage. We need a lead-in trainer to allow student pilots to transition from prop-driven trainers to fast jets. I'm amazed that we haven't developed something in concert with Italy (who will operate F-35s alongside their Typhoons), Germany or Spain.

The Hawk T.2 is a heavily modernised Hawk with a whole host of electronic gubbins specifically designed for training pilots to fly aircraft such as the Typhoon and the F-35. Presumably the basic airframe design was considered sound enough to remain effective when compared with more recently designed fast jet trainers.

Bear in mind as well that all the Red Arrows pilots are front-line fast jet pilots who are effectively given a 3-year secondment.

So you can't go sticking them in a Spitfire 🙄
They need the fast jet work in an aircraft that has at least the same basic controls and handling as the current front line fast jet force.

I realise things have changed quite dramatically with the Typhoon but certainly with the older Tornado jets, the cockpit layout was remarkably similar to the Hawk, the idea being that with the prgress through the Tucano, Hawk and then Tornado, everything would be familiar.

The new(ish) T2 has a glass cockpit design very similar to the Typhoon and the Lightning II - the airframe shape is the same as the old T1 that the RA fly but everything else has been completely upgraded.

The logical call would simply be to give them 12 T2 jets.

Because Hammy to make them reliable enough for Red Arrow use, youf have to build them out of composites, alter the cockpit to accept an ejector seat and install a turboprop engine.

So a tucano shaped a bit like a Spitfire.

I say Typhoons....the Blue Angela use F16s ao that they can convert to frontline operation usage....useful in the current age of austerity.

Tom, you've got literally seconds before someone corrects you about the Blue Angels - get it done!

So a tucano shaped a bit like a Spitfire

a. paint a spitfire on it

b clip the corners off the wings

c wasnt there once an advert with [url=

The Merlin and Griffin engines were designed 80 years ago. Nobody is alive now who was on the original design team so have no idea by what design rules they were originally designed to and how to convert those design rules to modern day aviation design rules. Guys alive today have all been involved in keeping the things flying rather than going back to core engineering design - a completely different prospect geared around maintaining the current designs rather than fundamentally changing it based on the rules of equivalency. To 'modernise' the engine you're having to go back to original design and start from there - but nobody is around who understands it. It would be far easier to completely re-engine with a modern engine, but then it wont be a Spitfire as Tom says.

They yanks operate on a different basis. You can do what you like to aircraft and stick an 'X' on it to designate it as 'Experimental' and you're good to go - it's your fault if it goes wrong - and it often does. Thankfully we're a bit more diligent than that.

I think the logic will be that they take on the Hawk T2. It's an in service aircraft with the RAF anyway so most pilots going in to the reds will be coming from that in to their Typhoon/F35 then on to the reds. They will be more familiar with the updated displays etc in the T2.

We need a lead-in trainer to allow student pilots to transition from prop-driven trainers to fast jets.

[img] &f=1[/img]

The Merlin and Griffin engines were designed 80 years ago. Nobody is alive now who was on the original design team so have no idea by what design rules they were originally designed to

I heard it told that the British Ford and American Packard built Merlins were built to a much higher tolerances than the Rolls-Royce Merlins. The Rolls Merlins were pretty much hand-built by engineers and parts might not be transferable to another engine. Those that were built by automobile manufactures who did mass-production had to be built to new plans with correct tolerances.

No idea how true that is, but makes sense.

A supposedly forward looking Britain, trying to project an image of modernity and competence would be better served not harking back to the past when trying to impress new commercial partners.

As an aside, back in the 1970s Piper Aircraft proposed resurrecting the venerable P-51 Mustang with a turboprop engine and some other concessions to modernity as a counter-insurgency aircraft (Piper PA-48 Enforcer). The resulting plane looked exactly like a butchered P-51d, sans belly inlet and with a lot of empty space in the engine bay and with wingtip tanks. But it didn't make a noise like a P-51, nor could it fly as fast as a P-51, nor was it as pretty as a P-51.

Just a thought, they could save some money by just getting the pilots to sit in simulators and the airshow visitors could view via VR, in fact you wouldn't even need to go to the airshow. That way they could fly Spitfires, Vulcans, Millennium Falcon etc.

Whats not to love?!

Of course they will go with the Hawk T2 but just imagine the sound a display of nine typhoons would make.......

Because Hammy to make them reliable enough for Red Arrow use, youf have to build them out of composites, alter the cockpit to accept an ejector seat and install a turboprop engine.

So a tucano shaped a bit like a Spitfire.

I say Typhoons....the Blue Angela use [s]F16s[/s] [b]F18s [/b]ao that they can convert to frontline operation usage....useful in the current age of austerity.

Tut Tut Tut....

JackHammer - Member

Because Hammy to make them reliable enough for Red Arrow use, youf have to build them out of composites, alter the cockpit to accept an ejector seat and install a turboprop engine.

So a tucano shaped a bit like a Spitfire.

I say Typhoons....the Blue Angela use [s]F16s[/s] F[b]/A[/b]18s ao that they can convert to frontline operation usage....useful in the current age of austerity.

Tut Tut Tut....

So close

legend - Member

JackHammer - Member

Because Hammy to make them reliable enough for Red Arrow use, youf have to build them out of composites, alter the cockpit to accept an ejector seat and install a turboprop engine.
So a tucano shaped a bit like a Spitfire.

I say Typhoons....the Blue Angel[b]s[/b][s]a[/s] use [s]F16s[/s] F/A18s ao that they can convert to frontline operation usage....useful in the current age of austerity.

Tut Tut Tut....

So close

... yet no cigar.

**** off, everyone knows they are called Blue Angela

Pedants!

Plus it was a quote, so I left the spelling mistakes in there 😛

**** off, everyone knows they are called Blue Angela

And the USAF team, the Thunderbirdies.

The RAF bought 175 Hawk T1s but have only bought 28 T2s. My impression is that the updated Hawk is a far more complex and expensive aircraft and the RAF would not be keen in expanding its fleet by nearly 50% (the Red Arrows have 12 Hawks in total) purely for the use of a display team. I'd imagine that a stripped down T2 may be possible, otherwise a reduction in the size of the Red Arrows display team or accepting a conversion to turboprop aircraft seem like fairly realistic outcomes.

Thuderbirds uses F-16 but that is a 40 year old plane.

They're all old - the only reason they are any good in their primary role is because they've had years to develop them.

Looks like its going to be a fleet of Bromptons now. Once again, Brexit Britain innit.
[img] ?la=en[/img]

[url= http://www.brompton.com/News/Posts/2016/News-Red-Arrows ]sauce[/url]

For all those suggesting the Spitfire, please:

Add one of these 😉

Or get a grip

I recon we get 9 Chinooks and paint them red. The Chinooks flying displays are brilliant. And they're easy to deploy overseas.

More seriously, it'll be Hawk T2s. Commonality of supply chain, maintenance contracts, operating standards, crew currencies, et cetera. Innit.

I place a bet we see a Red Arrows crowdfunding page....

they could order in some chinese jobbies i bet you can order direct too

[url= http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/chinas-j-20-stealth-fighter-looks-dangerous-can-it-crush-18264 ]Chinese stealth plane is awesomely awesome and can set car alarms off[/url]

Mikkel. So? The point is that like the Typhoon it is still a frontline fighter, they can be repainted and sent to war in a moments notice.

As an aside, back in the 1970s Piper Aircraft proposed resurrecting the venerable P-51 Mustang with a turboprop engine and some other concessions to modernity as a counter-insurgency aircraft (Piper PA-48 Enforcer). The resulting plane looked exactly like a butchered P-51d, sans belly inlet and with a lot of empty space in the engine bay and with wingtip tanks. But it didn't make a noise like a P-51, nor could it fly as fast as a P-51, nor was it as pretty as a P-51.