[Closed] Netflix: Making a Murderer (HERE BE SPOILERS!!!)

Wasn't it shocking!
The big thing for me was the press coverage, how can anyone have a fair trial with that circus following everything that happens.

The big thing for me was the press coverage,

the press conference after the nephew's confession where the prosecution lawyer describes in detail what happened according the nephew. 😯

Even I was convinced at that point that he was guilty. Disgraceful

If they're going to frame him by planting his blood in the SUV, why not suggest he shot her somewhere else then drive her back to the pit at the back of his caravan? Then there's no need to explain the lack of blood everywhere else!?

Apparently there's several key pieces of evidence against him missing, the bullet came from his gun, he had bought shackles recently, he gave her several nuisance calls. Not damning evidence but it does show the programme was biased.

It does seem insane they both got sent down for it though given the strength of the defences case. Surely Brendan's confessions should be deemed inadmissable!?

Was a great watch, that's for sure!

Fantastic viewing

There are so many elements of the investigation that would never be allowed in the UK.
How a 16 year old who has obvious learning difficulties could end up in prison based on that "confession" is a mystery to me.

Not finished it yet but I've already seen spoilers about the outcome. The fat guy with the glasses and moustache (can't remember his name) has achieved the seemingly impossible feat of having as smug and punchable face as David Cameron, each time I see him on it my blood boils haha.

The Mrs and I watched these in the space of three days and it is shocking. Obviously it is entertainment rather than any sort of legally credible account of the proceedings but even so, there is enough to raise some serious eyebrows.

There were so many little things that really beggared belief, the access that those with a clear conflict of interest were given to the potential crime scene, the lack of DNA.

The guy who really took the biscuit though was Dussey's first lawyer whose investigator was also working for the prosecution of his Uncle was just mind blowing. How was any of this allowed to happen? Guilty or not, huge grounds for a mistrial. Stunning.

Did he do it? IANAL and the only evidence we have is shown through a biased documentary but if that many seemingly right thinking legal professionals are prepared to keep on pursuing a case which could so easily be written of as "redneck kills photographer" is enough to convince me that he is probably not guilty.

I reckon the creepy housemate did it.

The brother must be a suspect, talking about grieving and closure to the press when Teresa Halbach's was still a missing person?!?

The brother must be a suspect, talking about grieving and closure to the press when Teresa Halbach's was still a missing person?!?

Ex-boyfriend was also strange

The brother must be a suspect, talking about grieving and closure to the press when Teresa Halbach's was still a missing person?!?

Ex-boyfriend was also strange

Excellent series. Started watching it expecting it to be a drama so had no idea about the story, background at all. Mind was being blown every episode!!

The amount of issues with the prosecution, access by the local PD etc was insane.

I doubt he was guilty but the scarey thing is that there is likely a murderer walking around scott free and we know the original assault perpetrator went on to rape someone else. scary prognosis!

I personally think it was the cousin who did it. Brendans brother?
He and his friend were the first to point the finger at Avery stating they saw the girl going into Avery's trailer. Clearly had a motive of some kind and there story and credibility was blown out of the water fairly quickly and then kind of ignored. They would have had access to and knew the property well enough to dump the car there. Killed the girl else where then dumped the car and ashes on the Avery property.

As far as the police planting evidence goes I think when the car was first found by the PD the keys were still in the ignition and taken by PD. Blood evidence planted (that PD had access to) and then the key dropped in the bedroom at a later date when the local PD had access again. That is literally all the specific evidence against Avery in those 3 things and would have been easy to do...
- take key
- plant blood
- drop key
I think the two local PD cops who were implicated could see there lives falling apart and saw an opportunity. I really hope new evidence comes to light or testing procedures developed that leave the truth 100% certain. ie the planting of blood.

When they showed the blood vile with the hole in the top !!! Obviously one sided but surely there was enough for reasonable doubt . It was interesting that when the jury first voted most of them were not guilty , I would love to know how the deliberations went for that to change .

The telephone calls were interesting too. IIRC one of them was between Steven and his girlfriend in prison on the night of the murder. He certainly didn't sound like someone who had raped, mutilated, shot and burned a woman earlier on in the day.

kids are watching this right now and expressing shock at it all, i havent been taking notice of it but keep seeing the series mentioned here, there and everywhere at the moment, seems to be a 'big thing'?

i mentioned to them that if hes wrongfully imprisoned, and still there now, then surely the world watching this series will create enough furore to free him. they say no, because it would cost the government millions of dollars or something and its all a cover up.

not really knowing what theyre on about, is this the case? could this series see a (potentially) innocent man freed now or will it make no difference?

After his first wrongful imprisonment when he was released in 2003 he was trying to sue the state for $36 million dollars.

welcome to 'Justice' the American way...If you're poor. you're pretty much guilty of what they say you're guilty of.

Years ago I read a book called Killing Time, not related at all, it's about a lawyer who looks at death row cases, and this sort of sloppy investigation, bad legal representation, terrible interviewing, and fitting up goes on time and time and time again, and he was just practising in Florida. You could probably find cases like this in every State

thanks. but do you think the eyes of the world on this series will make a difference to his situation now? will it be investigated?

The point made by Averys laywers that once accused, you are basically ****ed for life is frighteningly true.. as experienced by the DA who suffered the same fate once accused of his own sexual harassment crimes and has now disappeared into oblivion it seems.

I think he has exhausted his appeals so needs new evidence to force a retrial which would seem to be a new way of testing the blood stains in the car to prove they were planted . So I think he is waiting on science as opposed to the tv program helping getting him released but I suppose all the publicity can't do him any harm

Just finished watching it. Great show, very compelling. I was conscious of watching a very one sided portrayal of events, or of being manipulated by the film makers but even with that in the back of my mind it's hard to imagine how Avery could have done what he was convicted of.

Unless there was some hugely compelling evidence left out of the documentary I just can't see how the jury reached that conclusion.

If Avery did murder her, how is the DNA and blood evidence so randomly distributed? Why wouldn't he crush the car? Or use the smelter to dispose of the body? Why would he do such a thing when he had $36million coming to him. Hmmmmmmmm 😕

It was amazing viewing. It is worrying enough that you can spend 18 years in prison for something that you didn't do. Then life with no chance of release for something that it's very likely you didn't do.

The 1st time I couldn't believe how he was sent down when he had 22 people stating where he was from 2pm to 11pm so couldn't have been anywhere near the location at the time of the assault. Ok they were family members, but surely most alibis are provided by family members.
The murder conviction was baffling. As said above, how can it not give you some doubts about him doing it when we have to believe he is clever and skilled enough to completely clean his trailer and garage of blood/DNA, but stupid enough to not get rid of her car and the smear of blood right on the dash and leave the key in your bedroom.

The conviction of Brendan is worse still. Poor kid was ****ed over by those 2 investigators and his own lawyer and will now spend 20+ years in prison for it. I was genuinely shocked and angered when the judge read out that he was found guilty.

It was shocking, I couldn't understand how it was possible for a bunch of intelligent people to arrive at a guilty verdict for either of them.

For me,there was far more reasonable doubt about their guilt, than evidence to prove them guilty.

I'm not saying 100% that they had nothing to do with it, but the trial was a farce.

Also, is it normal for the prosecutor to go on TV before a trial and explain in detail what happened to the victim? Seemed a bit off to me.

I think it's worth remembering that in the States positions such as District Attorney, Judges, Police Chiefs are voted into office. The reason they go on telly like this is to remind folk that they are catching, prosecuting, and imprisoning "the bad guys". That some of those bad guys are perhaps innocent doesn't seem to trouble them unduly.

Horribly compelling viewing. Don't think I've ever shouted so loudly and so often at a tv screen before watching this.

Brendan's initial defender (Kuchinsky?) made me wish to punch self in face merely for watching the horror show unravel. Heartbreaking. That learning disabled kids (adult) life was over before it began, he never stood a chance against such manipulation. ******* disgraceful.

I read that the BBC are making a programme similar to this but have not said what the case is . You assume that this type of thing doesnt happen in the uk , at least not anymore .

Malvern Rider

Horribly compelling viewing. Don't think I've ever shouted so loudly and so often at a tv screen before watching this.

Brendan's initial defender (Kuchinsky?) made me wish to punch self in face merely for watching the horror show unravel. Heartbreaking. That learning disabled kids (adult) life was over before it began, he never stood a chance against such manipulation. ******* disgraceful.

Very much so. Regardless of Avery, there was absolutely no evidence linking Dassey to the crime other than his own confession. The extent to which he was coerced should have been obvious to anyone with eyes.

Never mind the fact that his confession and conviction upon that confession completely contradicts Avery's conviction and the DA's statement that they murdered her in the garage.

Why wouldn't he crush the car? Or use the smelter to dispose of the body? Why would he do such a thing when he had $36million coming to him. Hmmmmmmmm

Because Murderers don't think like normal people.

teef

Because Murderers don't think like normal people.

So what you're saying is that he was smart enough to rape, murder, dismember and burn this woman on his property and doesn't leave a trace of blood anywhere other than the boot of her car and traces of DNA on the bullet?

In other words he was able to forensically clean his trailer, his garage and do so in a fashion that none of them actually looked like they'd been cleaned in any way?

I'm not saying I believe 100% he's innocent but I don't think he's smart enough to execute all that, but dumb enough to not crush the car or dispose of the body in the smelter.

And he's smart enough to wear gloves while moving the car so as not to get any fingerprints anywhere on it, but dumb enough not to wash it, having....foresically cleaned his entire trailer and garage full of shit.

Slightly OT but also watched 'The Kill Team' (2013) about 'whistleblowers' in the military. Terrifying.

I also recommend Cash for Kids in a similar-ish area. Two judges given cash incentives from a private prison company to send kids to jail for even the most minor infractions. Many of these kids had their lives ruined as a result. Grim.

And Paradise Lost of course.

And he's smart enough to wear gloves while moving the car so as not to get any fingerprints anywhere on it, but dumb enough not to wash it, having....foresically cleaned his entire trailer and garage full of shit.

That's how they catch murderers - they make a mistake and overlook something.

teef

That's how they catch murderers - they make a mistake and overlook something.

How does he spill droplets of his own blood (from the cut on his finger) in the car interior if he's wearing gloves while he's moving it?

How does he spill droplets of his own blood (from the cut on his finger) in the car interior if he's wearing gloves while he's moving it?

How do you know he was wearing gloves - maybe he wiped the door handles, steering wheel, etc clean afterwards.

That's how they catch murderers - they make a mistake and overlook something.

The bloke has an IQ of 70. Master criminal he is not. Even the forensics team were saying they didn't think they could clean the place so well and they are a forensics team.

Plenty of room for reasonable doubt I think.

teef

How do you know he was wearing gloves - maybe he wiped the door handles, steering wheel, etc clean afterwards.

I don't but that then begs the question how did he avoid getting any of his DNA in the car anywhere else (other than under the bonnet)?

They found DNA from his sweat under the bonnet. The same DNA they found on the key. But nowhere else in the car. So if he's bleeding profusely from an open wound, he bleeds on the door handles, he bleeds on the wheel, he bleeds on the gear stick, he bleeds on the key, he bleeds on the ignition. He manages to foresically clean all of this blood off but misses three very obvious blood stains. And he gets DNA from his sweat under the bonnet, but leaves no finger prints in the typically oily, dirty environment of a car engine bay ❓

He also leaves her blood in the boot. How and why? Bloody fascinating at any rate.

I don't but that then begs the question how did he avoid getting any of his DNA in the car anywhere else (other than under the bonnet)?

Because he didn't clean it thoroughly enough - He made a mistake and overlooked something.

teef

Because he didn't clean it thoroughly enough - He made a mistake and overlooked something.

Right I can see you're not going to give anything on that premise, let me try something else. How do you explain that Avery's DNA was on Halbach's key, but none of Halbach's DNA was?

How did Avery and Dassey shoot her 11 times and neither of them had any gun shot residue on them? How could they forensically clean that entire garage full of shit, and leave it a dirty garage full of shit.

They clean up every drop of blood, every trace of DNA but they don't bother to lift shell casings and a bullet.

Finished this last night. Bonkers, kept waiting for the final twist and the sheriffs dept to get their comeuppance only for it never to happen. Can't believe the levels of corruption and negligence, does anyone know if the series has prompted any action?

They did an online petition but the Whitehouse is powerless to do anything about it. Most recently some apparent "hot shot" lawyer from Chicago has taken up Avery's case and yesterday declared they had new evidence on which to mount an appeal.

Well that wound me up a treat. That poor, poor kid, Brendan.

A never ending parade of slimy individuals, with captain Ken at the helm. What a ballbag.

Disgusting excuses for human beings who deserve to be behind bars. And I'm certainly not talking about Brendan and Steven.

How anyone could possibly argue they were found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, let alone from an initial presumption of innocence, I don't know.

The most frightening thing I've watched in a long time.

I'm about half way through, and it's a pretty appalling saga - for both convictions. Then I'm also conscious that we're getting the information the producers want us to get presented in the way they want to present it. Then I think about the repeated and regular news items about the behaviour of US law enforcement people which doesn't give one much confidence in the system there. And then I keep seeing articles presenting the other side of the Steven Avery story and things about him, that do not reflect well on him, that weren't shown in the series. And then you wonder if they're true or not and where the information came from and what the motive for putting it out is.

So in the end it feels just the same as an election where one lot say one thing and one lot say the opposite and you end up thinking you can't 100% believe either of them.

But he's poor and not bright and in America so they probably did **** him over. And Brendan.

@tga, where did you read the "other side" about Avery?

We're two episodes from the end, but I pretty much know what's happened anyway, so I'd be interested to hear the other side.

deadlydarcy

@tga, where did you read the "other side" about Avery?

We're two episodes from the end, but I pretty much know what's happened anyway, so I'd be interested to hear the other side.

Multiple sources. To be fair a lot of the "other side" is actually in the doc. It's just presented with context and not dwelt upon.

@tga, where did you read the "other side" about Avery?

Must be true then.

[img] [/img]

I think I just googled 'the other side of the Steven Avery case' or something like that, and there are various items about him - domestic violence, something about harassing the journalist, I can't recall the exact details. Of course there is no way of assessing the credibility of these so it would be daft to take them at face value, but that's not to say they don't muddy the water - no doubt what they're intended to do.

To be fair, I didn't want to google it. Just wondered if there was an unbiased account by an investigative journalist out there.

I think I just googled 'the other side of the Steven Avery case' or something like that

The last two episodes where the focus swings away from Steven and looks at Brendan and his appeals are where it really hit home for me how broken the system is.

Similar levels of investigative rigour as the Manitowoc PD.

🙂 indeed

I'm only on the fourth episode but even what they've shown so far re Brandon is a disgrace.

I'm not very impressed with the judge either.

how broken the system is

What really gets me is how loaded it is against the poor/uneducated. Frighteningly enough, this guy actually had good lawyers. I think it was the earlier ruling that they couldn't name or accuse anybody else of the crime was what done it for him - the defence needed to be able to do this to introduce doubt into the minds of the jury - given that the presumption of innocence was all but destroyed by the prosecution before the trial even began. It seems to me that they had a good idea of who was really responsible. The judge's rulings throughout seemed to load everything in favour of the prosecution.

If this had happened to somebody living in the Hamptons, there isn't a chance they'd have gone down for it.

Also, her brother is a prick and I find him ever so slightly sinister. There seems to be this thing where the victim's family are almost bound to side with the prosecution and go with whatever ridiculous shit they come up with.

I'm still to understand how Brendan's initial lawyer was taken off the case for allowing him to be interviewed without legal counsel, but then those exact interviews be used in court to "prove" his guilt.

deadlydarcy - Member

To be fair, I didn't want to google it. Just wondered if there was an unbiased account by an investigative journalist out there.

The main things that are being reported the other side of Avery are as follows. When he was a teenager he drunkenly threw a cat into a fire. Not very nice, but it's in the documentary, right at the start. He had a bitter dispute with the wife of a Sheriff's deputy culminating in him stopping her car with his car. Again, at the start of the doc, and appears to be open to debate as to what really happened.

He threatened to kill his ex wife. Again, that's in there. Increasingly acrimonious letters where they are basically going through a divorce and he's suicidal.

His girlfriend at the time of his arrest for the Halbach murder, Jodie Stachowski is being reported as having said he told her he murdered Halbach, although what she appears to have actually said is that she knows he murdered Halbach because she believed he was capable of it. Though in the doc she constantly professes his innocence even to the point of going to jail for breaching a no contact order.

Then there's other evidence related stuff. The prosecution presented "Shackles" Avery owned into evidence that Avery bound and raped Halbach, but none of Halbach's DNA was found on them.

DNA from Avery's sweat was found under the bonnet of Halbach's Rav4.

The prosecution alleged that Avery used a withheld number to call Autotrader and lured Halbach out there unwittingly. Her autotrader collegues testified that she knew she was going out to meet Steven Avery and phone records showed he didn't call from a withheld number.

@fin25, even worse is how expert lawyers on forced confessions can present evidence in court showing convincingly how Brendan wasn't even nearly given the level of support expected in law, and that his lawyer actively conspired with the prosecution (don't get me started on that shit stain blubbing on the stand over the white ribbon), and this is not recognised by any court in the state. Unreal.

don't get me started on that shit stain blubbing on the stand over the white ribbon

Oh my god, what a douche...

Incredible that they couldn't get a re-trial despite proving they bullied a boy into confessing.

shocking story, so many problems with the prosecution its beyond belief either were convicted.

Just finished watching this and found it compelling viewing.
Anyone recommend any other good documentaries on Netflix? Cheers

What's the bets this thread will just bubble along for 3 or 4 months, avoided for fear of spoilers by everyone who's yet to watch and bumped up every time someone finishes it? 🙂

Finished it last night (although didn't really need to avoid the thread as I'd already heard a fair bit about the case anyway). Utterly ridiculous - two many WTF moments in the prosecution case to even start listing them out.

Anyway, for a bit more WTFery, the Guardian are running an interesting multimedia series called The Injustice System. At the moment, they're doing the case of Tyra Patterson - another dodgy looking case from Ohio. I've only got most of the way through Part 1 for now but it makes interesting reading, both for the case and some of the statistics regarding The USA's seeming addiction to incarceration and the way the system appears loaded towards making it hugely difficult for wrongly convicted people to prove their innocence. Anyway, worth a read...[url= http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2016/jan/14/the-injustice-system-us-prisons-tyra-patterson-michelle-lai-dayton-ohio-montgomery-county?CMP=edit_2221 ]The Injustice System[/url]

given that the presumption of innocence was all but destroyed by the prosecution and the defence (Kuchinsky) before the trial even began

ftfy!

I read a report recently of a death row prisoner who's lawyer was mostly asleep* during his case. The court recognised that he didn't get a great trial, and dis-barred his lawyer...However the court still found him guilty, and sentenced him to death. Go figure, as they say in the states.

*Not figuratively asleep, actual snorning, sweet dreams asleep.

John Grisham's "the Innocent Man" is worth a read - very similar stuff. Utterly shocking.

What really gets me is how loaded it is against the poor/uneducated

Wasn't there a case recently where a guy was found guilty in a (arguably) dodgy trial, someone else was then convicted of single-handedly committing the same crime, but the first guy wasn't released?

Just finished this. Unbelievable! It's the interview between Brendan and his own investigator that gets me the most, when he is handed the paper with the asking whether you are a) guilty and not sorry or b) guilty and sorry. Arrgh!

Watched this over the weekend, utterly gripping to watch and horrifying to watch the justice system in America in action.
Not the ending I was hoping for, where the bad buys get there comeuppance.

jimjam
What's the bets this thread will just bubble along for 3 or 4 months, avoided for fear of spoilers by everyone who's yet to watch and bumped up every time someone finishes it?

*their.

*their.

Thanks, will make sure it doesn't happen again 🙂

What other documentaries are worth checking out on Netflix? Searching via the TV remote is right pain so some pointers to speed up this would help.

And Brendan Dassey has his conviction overturned:

A judge overturned the murder conviction of Brendan Dassey, the subject of the Netflix documentary series Making a Murderer, on Friday.

Federal magistrate William Duffin handed down the ruling in the murder of Wisconsin woman Teresa Halbach. Dassey and his uncle Steven Avery were found guilty in Halbach’s 2005 death in separate trials.

“These repeated false promises, when considered in conjunction with all relevant factors, most especially Dassey’s age, intellectual deficits, and the absence of a supportive adult, rendered Dassey’s confession involuntary under the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments,” Duffin wrote in his 91-page ruling.

[url] https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/aug/12/making-a-murderer-brendan-dassey-retrial-release ][/url]

Nice

Yes - though they've got 90 days to file new charges. So it might not be over for him.