Neil Kinnock appreciation post

Recreated by him for the Mirror.
Was 100% accurate then - as it is today.
IMO an authentic labour politician.

An immense politician. I respected Foot massively, but he was an electoral calamity (seems somehow familiar to recent history?). Kinnock started the recovery and turn around which John Smith carried to the line for Blair to take the glory. So Kinnock even though wasnt PM was a massive role in turning it round.

Its just such a shame we had to repeat the mistake of Micheal Foot again with Corbyn.

Kinnock started the recovery and turn around which John Smith carried to the line for Blair to take the glory

Kinnock was thrashed in '87 and threw it away in '92.

Kinnock was thrashed in ’87 and threw it away in ’92

Not sure threw it away. Tories got in with a majority of what, 20? Just think the press turned against him, and weren't ready to have confidence in him. Wasnt the Sun particularly nasty? Again a consequence of Foot? I despise the UK press but the sad reality is any Labour politician has to get them on side. Hopefully future Labour leaders have learned that lesson?

Not sure threw it away. Tories got in with a majority of what, 20?

Recession, high unemployment, and a tired government were there for the taking. Instead, his landslide defeat in '87 (when he'd been leader for four years) was improved by a couple of percent. I admire his prescient oratory but see little evidence that he put Labour on the road to victory.

Wasnt the Sun particularly nasty?

It's the Sun wot won it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_The_Sun_Wot_Won_It

Kinnock gave us the Blair majority. I still recall the day after the 92 election (I was at uni in the US and had a postal vote). When it came down to the crunch, the country simply couldn’t bring themselves to vote labour (despite the poll lead). Five years and a disaster of a conservative government later, meant that the country wasn’t going to make that mistake again.

We’re pretty much in the same position - time for the other side to have a go.

Yeah but you havent actually answered my question as to how "he threw it away"? I am not sure he did. What could he have done differently? It was the lack of press support that made the difference, how could he have changed that? I am not sure he could at the time? I remember he was genuinely shocked he had lost the 92 election. But think it was last minute headlines in the papers that threw it.

Its relevant to me as I grow older and watch the same old sh8t being repeated. Again and again. Because it seems there was then and now even worse a stanglehold on public opinion by the press that has to be managed first before any reasonable policies can be proposed. Watched an Alaister Campbell interview, he said they wanted a more socialist agenda but knew they wouldnt get it past the press.

Its sore for me on this forum because I watched those arguments play out during the last election, and in some cases supported by moderators, and predictably it was a disaster. I just wonder if we are too thick to learn?

Prophetic isn't really big enough a word for how accurate he was really, is it?

I don't ever remember the UK being so utterly broken as it is now and it's only partly through incompetence. It's worse in my mind as it seems actual policy.

Yeah, depressing indeed.

Its sore for me on this forum because I watched those arguments play out during the last election, and in some cases supported by moderators, and predictably it was a disaster.

Huh?

I don’t ever remember the UK being so utterly broken as it is now and it’s only partly through incompetence. It’s worse in my mind as it seems actual policy.

Apart from when our forces were sent to Iraq, on the basis of "that" dossier, and Afghanistan on the basis of what I'm not quite sure. No UN mandate and around 500 UK forces killed, thousands more mentally and physically scarred and still suffering today.
A time when UK cancer recovery rates were lower than those in Romania, etc...

Politicians of all parties, depressing indeed.

I think if John Smith hadn't died we'd be I'm different place.

I think if John Smith hadn’t died we’d be I’m different place.

I think this too. No idea if it’s true.

I remember the 92 election so well. The first I was old enough to vote in. I remember the feeling of disbelief that the tories had got back in was huge. Similar to 2019. How on earth does that happen? It is indeed a question that needs answering. Fptp, the media, infighting in the Labour Party, all things that help the tories

l despise the UK press but the sad reality is any Labour politician has to get them on side. Hopefully future Labour leaders have learned that lesson?

So you "despise" the UK press but you hope that future Labour leaders don't do anything to upset them?

In fact you want the press to dictate Labour Party policy:

Watched an Alaister Campbell interview, he said they wanted a more socialist agenda but knew they wouldnt get it past the press.

In that case let's hope that Keir Starmer has had a quiet word with Rupert Murdoch to check whether the foreign multi-billionaire, who doesn't even live in the UK, is happy with the next Labour government's agenda.

In fact presumably he already has - the 20 plus percent leads that most opinion polls have been giving Labour the last few months must surely be because of press approval?

Upset the press barons now and the Tories will storm to power again next general election.

And the attitides as to why Labour keep snatching defeat from the jaws of victory have arrived.....

Those who don't learn from the mistakes of history etc etc...

Yeah the lesson to learn from history is that Neil Kinnock was too left-wing! 😂

Blimey Hannah, you do realise what you've probably started don't you?! 😀

That's a great speech, and very prescient. It's such a shame that human nature tends towards repeating the same mistakes.

That is strong. Applause from here.

It’s such a shame that human nature tends towards repeating the same mistakes.

The first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - especially if you quietly brush aside the 13 years Labour had the power to change things.

Spitting Image probably did more damage to Kinnock at the time than anything else.

I remember the 92 election so well. The first I was old enough to vote in. I remember the feeling of disbelief that the tories had got back in was huge. Similar to 2019.

What we keep falling for the the symptoms of 'Shy Tory' syndrome. A government can seem to be spectacular unpopular - in the polls, in the chat in the pub or these days on social media. But a lot of tory voters just don't say they're tory voters - they may even be just as critical of an unpopular tory governement... but just vote tory anyway.

In fact I remember after the 1992 election and the seemingly shock result and trying to work out... who votes tory - why despite knowing people of all classes and social strata have I never met someone I know to be a tory voter? On the weight of probability half the people around me at the time must have been - but I'd never know who

This forum in fact was my first knowing encounter with someone I knew, conversationally  to be a conservative voter and was happy to say so. Captain Flashheart took my tory cherry. My first un-shy tory, at least under the anonymity of the internet -  In fact I could see the 2010 election result coming in the tone of conversation on this forum. Back when Cameron, in opposition, was describing Britain as 'Broken' - now theres a bit of foresight! 🙂

Shouldn't there be more exclamation marks in the title?

What we keep falling for the the symptoms of ‘Shy Tory’ syndrome.

Yup. Voting Tory is a shameful durty business which people only feel comfortable doing whilst they are alone behind the drawn curtains of a polling booth, and away from prying eyes.

Two pollsters take this into consideration, Opinium and Deltapoll, their methodology involves allowing for the fact that many previous Tory voters who currently aren't saying who they will be voting for would in all probability vote Tory if a general election was called now.

Consequently whilst most pollsters give Labour a twenty plus lead over the Tories Opinium and Deltapoll "only" give Labour a 14-15% lead.

It is for that reason I am very confident that Labour would win a general election under current conditions, and with a fairly huge majority.

Opinion polls aren't precise, and they only reflect opinion at any given time, but they are more accurate than a lot of people give them credit for. The margin of error can reasonably be expected to be no more than 3-5%.

Obviously it is also dependent on how the question is framed but that shouldn't be an issue if the question is "how would you vote if there was a general election tomorrow?"

In fact I remember after the 1992 election and the seemingly shock result and trying to work out… who votes tory

I remember the 1992 election, I turned 18 in the March and it was my first time voting. I voted Tory, because I was 18, not particularly politically engaged, and grew up in a middle-class family in a safe Tory seat. I do remember my A-level maths teacher, who, looking back with the benefit of hindsight, was your archetypical cord-jacket-with-elbow-patches-and-Hush-Puppy-wearing, Guardian-reading, Lefty-academic type teacher, being really pissed off on the Friday.

And, whilst I will not be voting Tory in the next election, I'm not going to say that I'll never vote Tory again. I'll make a pragmatic choice from the available options at the time.

^^Right IHN goes on ze list.

Come the revolution...😉

Come the revolution…

I'll fly off to my little place in Tuscany 😉

I’ll fly off to my little place in Tuscany

When we talk about the people who will be first against the wall come the revolution  - did we mention the wall is n a little place in Tuscany?

I worked really hard in the 1992 general election campaign, harder than any other election. There were such high hopes, especially as we knew Labour were on course to win Croydon from the Tories, which is exactly what happened, with a 13% swing iirc. But there was no great celebrations the next day, just a lot of devastation that it hadn't been replicated throughout the country.

That's the election which gave David Evans the current General Secretary of the Labour Party his reputation, he was the driving force behind the Croydon victory, in terms of organisational skills.

'92 was the first GE I could vote in and my bad memories of it centre around media hype of Kinnock/Labour holding celebration parties like a win was a done deal just before the vote, resulting in a very different result to what polls predicted before those parties took place.

One thing he did do to help end the tory years is kick out the infiltrators who'd hijacked the party.

Surprised this has not been posted yet - worth watching from 2 mins in, or reading the full transcript (he was somewhat overly verbose).

Shots of chancer hatton heckling, heffer walking out...

Yeah the lesson to learn from history is that Neil Kinnock was too left-wing!

On policy.. no, on image, yes, absolutely, if he ever wanted to be PM anyway.

I grew up in the 80's and 90' with staunch Daily Express reading parents and Daily Mail reading Grandparents.

The daily monstering Kinnock and Labour got in those pages resonates with me even now and my grandparents, to their dying days never voted anything but Tory.

However..... my parents did vote Labour in 1997, and possibly again in 2001, people can be reached but it requires walking an incredibly thin line, one that Blair successfully walked and Starmer will have to walk, especially if he doesn't want to be a 1 term PM.

Much as, like many on here I'd love him to be more stridently pro-EU and generally more angry with the state of things in general, I'm sure he has very good internal focus group and polling data that is guiding his actions and his overwhelming priority is 'don't blow it'

I’ll fly off to my little place in Tuscany 😉

As long as I can hunt you down within 3 months there is no escape...😁

His heart was in the right place and his objectives laudable, however, he was a PR nightmare. Mocked by the media and weak without a script. I was relieved when John Smith took over because he held his own. When a country's destiny depended on one man's heart.

I’ll fly off to my little place in Tuscany 😉

As long as I can hunt you down within 3 months there is no escape…😁

Not a joking matter. I'm happy to volunteer to be part of the search party but a thorough and methodical approach could take years and the Tuscany bit could just be a ruse. Probably best to start in, I dunno, Finale Ligure say, and work from there.

As long as I can hunt you down within 3 months there is no escape…😁

I properlaughed at that, very clever

The daily monstering Kinnock and Labour got in those pages resonates with me even now

+1 I also remember the clip of him falling over on the beach being played everywhere on the TV.

Oh yeah that clip. I remember that being played so much (not clicked on the YouTube link- no need to it’s seated in my memory)

My twin brother is a lifelong tory voter and voted for brexit. He has always fallen for the stuff about tories looking after the economy and too many immigrants. He works at Felixstowe docks unloading container ships. I haven’t heard how that’s been affected by the B thing

+1 I also remember the clip of him falling over on the beach being played everywhere on the TV.

Me too.

His "eating a sandwich moment".

Odd that such trivial things are used by the press to destroy Labour leaders. Yet some of the mahoosive negatives of Tory leaders can remain buried for weeks/ months/ years and require proper investigative journalists to uncover.

Hmmm...

johnx2 Free Member
One thing he did do to help end the tory years is kick out the infiltrators who’d hijacked the party.

30 years on right-wingers are still regurgitating the Tory lie that the Labour Party had been "hijacked" by infiltrators, which at least in part helps to explain the 1992 general election defeat.

Despite the claims by the Tory press the Labour Party had not been hijacked, it was firmly in the hands of Neil Kinnock and his supporters.

The Militant Tendency did have a perfectly open policy of infiltration of the Labour Party, it is the classic Trotskyite tactic of "entryism", as they call it.

I am not a Trot and I am totally opposed to the tactic. But I am also totally opposed to dishonest right-wing tactics and the primary enemy for me is the Tories, not fellow socialist s. I don't engage in political sectarianism - I leave that to Stalinists.

Furthermore unlike other Trotskyite organisations the Militant Tendency had a solid working-class base - typically inner-city youth. They were hugely important in organising opposition to the Poll Tax and its ultimate defeat - they helped to show what can be achieved even with a Tory majority government in power.

Their campaigning abilities were not matched with influence inside the Labour Party however. The Labour Party declared the Militant Tendency a proscribed organisation in 1982, ten years before the 1992 general election and at time when Neil Kinnock wasn't even party leader. Their entire editorial board was expelled the following year, when Kinnock was still not party leader.

By the time of 1992 general election all the expulsions had been completed, probably a couple of hundred - out of a total party membership of several hundreds of thousands. I suspect that in total they never had more than 6 MPs that were supporters, out of several hundred MPs. That's the level of influence they had.

By attacking MT Kinnock simply reinforced the Tory claim that the Labour Party was in the hands of left-wing extremists. It played a similar role that "anti-Semitism" played 4 years ago - 4 years ago the Labour Party was riddled with anti-Semitism and it was mentioned daily in the press. It has now apparently magically disappeared.

If fighting Militant was Neil Kinnocks's greatest achievement why didn't he win the 1992 general election? There was no one left to expell by then.

30 years on right-wingers

hey I'm a long way from getting over Healey losing to Foot, enabling the long shite years of Thatcher.

I'm also a long way from being right wing, was just saying what Kinnock succeeded in doing and posted his best know speech. A lot of us breathed a sigh of relief. Is anyone really going to defend the Hattonites (heckling in the youtube clip)? I also saw similar up close with SWP members.

Actually, a memory has just returned of the last time I argued about this moment was in Hull, walking back from Spiders club (where you could get a pint of chocolate milk with a few shots in it for not much ££. And jelly snakes), in the early hours through a deserted semi-industrial weird bit of town. I made some crack about veteran liverpool MP, former trade minister and former communist Eric Heffer, who prominently walks out in the clip. My now wife, scouse, either clonked me one or maybe it just was a big shove? Either way I went down on my arse in the middle of the empty street...

So, er, yeah. Thank you Kinnock...

Yeah you said the Labour Party had been "highjacked" by infiltrators, the only people I have heard make that nonsense claim are Tories and right-wingers. Which one are you? The Labour Party was firmly in Neil Kinnocks's grip when he was leader.

And it was under Michael Foot's leadership that Militant were banned, not Neil Kinnock's, why don't you give Michael Foot credit if that is important to you?

Sure Kinnock made fine public speeches denouncing Militant which undoubtedly helped the Tories and the right-wing press vilify Labour, but it didn't help him to win a general election that he should have won, did it? Militant was no longer an issue in 1992.

I say fine public speeches but he was famously known as "the Welsh Windbag".

And none of his speeches denouncing the Tory onslaught on mining communities, or the Poll Tax, are among "his best know speeches", just the one attacking the wrong type of socialist.

I have no idea what you are saying about Eric Heffer btw. He was one of the very best Labour MPs of that era** imo, and if you want to try to understand why a middle-clsss party of professionals, led by barristers and the like, is so out of touch with the working-class which founded it, you only need to look at the lack of working-class MPs such as Eric Heffer and Dennis Skinner in today's Labour Party. Still calling itself "labour" is frankly a joke now.

** And sponsored by my trade union of which he was a member.

it was under Michael Foot’s leadership that Militant were banned, not Neil Kinnock’s, why

you're right. It was under Kinnock's they were expelled.

I have no idea what you are saying about Eric Heffer

That the last time I said something denigrating about him I ended up on my arse, courtesy of my now wife. It's not intended as a devastating political argument, just a memory neuorone randomly firing. Though another one now fires to remind me that he did oppose Kinnock and his expulsion of liverpool militant.

That's enough memory lane.

Militant's Editorial Board, who were the main players because the newspaper was the glue which held the organisation together, Taaffe, Grant, Keith Dickinson, Lynn Walsh and Clare Doyle were all expelled when Michael Foot was leader. You don't give Michael Foot enough credit for something which you claim was very important.

Admittedly Michael Foot didn't create a song and dance about it publicly denouncing them with rousing speeches, but he probably didn't want to give the Tories and the right-wing press more ammunition than necessary.

Eric Heffer was absolutely right to oppose the expulsion of Militant imo, as I said previously the enemy was Thatcher and the Tories, not well-intentional if somewhat misguided trots. Militant weren't wreaking havoc on the lives of ordinary working people.

And that is precisely how the Tories manage to hang on to power - by getting the right-wing of the Labour Party to attack anyone who wants to seriously challenge the Tory Party's agenda. Divide and rule works very effectively.

If fighting Militant was Neil Kinnocks’s greatest achievement

who's saying that?

something which you claim was very important.

when did I claim that? Otherwise perfectly good posts undermined by misrepresentation.

Divide and rule works very effectively.

Indeed.

when did I claim that?

I took "surprised this has not been posted yet" as attaching some significant importance to the issue.

You also said it helped to "end the tory years" (despite the fact that it didn't because even after Militant had been expelled Kinnock still managed to lose his second general election) which also suggests it was very important.

Your words not mine:

One thing he did do to help end the tory years is kick out the infiltrators who’d hijacked the party.

Surprised this has not been posted yet

But if you don't think it was Neil Kinnock's greatest achievement, or even a very important one, fairy nuff, I stand corrected.

So what then do you think was Neil Kinnock's greatest achievement? 🧐

Yeah but you havent actually answered my question as to how “he threw it away”?

1992? At the time, it was widely thought that his apperance at a rally in Sheffield the week before the election lost him a lot of floating voters.
Labour were looking the most likely to win, and Kinnock had been very statesmanlike through the campaign, and had won a lot of people around. The rally was held in the large Sheffield arena in front of a lot of ecstatic supporters. Rather than carrying on his statesmanlike manner, when he came on, the crowd cheered, and he bellowed back ‘woahhhh alrigggghhhttt’. And repeated it 3 times. He acted like an unfortunate yob in front of the TV cameras, and was all over the TV news at 9pm (news was 9pm then on BBC).
He looked a bit daft doing that, and it translated to the election the following week, he’d lost some trust with his handling of situations.
I think if he had come on, stood there, waited for the cheers to subside, then say something like 'thankyou for that, but our hard work has to continue, and, hopefully, we will be able to celebrate if we win this election, then get down to the real work of running the country.’ That would have been the best way of accepting the applause, but, as it was, it was like a coronation party, and did upset many floating voters. And, the TV and papers made no mention of what was contained in his speech (actually, not much different to what he had been saying all along), they only focused on the shouting/baying to the crowd, which made him look a little foolish.

@johnx2 - I feel like I've stumbled over in the same dodgy part of Hull after a night of bright pink drink in Spiders.
Fond memories of that place.

his apperance at a rally in Sheffield the week

I think it needed more flegs

This is well worth reading for a good summary of the Kinnock years. It’s very funny in a depressing kind of way.