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Evening,
I'm being caught piggy in the middle between my folks and their next door neighbour who is building a single story extension. They are not on speaking terms(not civil anyway), so i am forced to do any communications like the U.N.
They want access to take down the fence to build, my folks say no....He's threatened legal action to gain access, its all pretty ridiculous as far as I am concerned. My folks say he should not have built an extension so large that it can't be built or maintained from his own land. blahblah
I've viewed various threads online pertaining to the 'access to neighbouring land act 1992'(I think the refers to the maintenance of existing property, not the building of a new) and the party wall act 1996 but im unsure if he can force access.
I can't deal with this shit and could of all been avoided at the start with some open communications over a cup of tea and a biscuit, but no. I fully believe my dad is stubborn enough to go to court to prevent access.
any advice,? apart from knocking their heads together.
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I'm not an expert but if its not party wall issues and he just wants the easiest way of access for building then he doesn't have any right of access and your folks can tell him to get lost. Hell have to find another way and factor it into the quotes. Builders make a right mess even if you are friends so if relationships aren't good already i wouldn't recommend introducing someone else builders onto your folks lawn.
Im no expert either, but that’s what i reckon it will boil down to.
Also, if your dad is prepared to go to court to stop them i doubt you’ll want to be stuck in the middle of that.
my 2p, if i thought my neighbours were ass hats before, no way would i be going out of my way to give them carte blanche to rip my garden to bits.
The Party Wall Act can allow access onto the neighbour's land, but only to do work covered by the Act. If the neighbour is intending to excavate for foundations or anything else such as drains within 3m of your parents" foundations and to a greater depth (which is likely to be the case) the neighbour should be serving a Notice of Adjacent Excavation on your parents and would then have a right of access if reasonably necessary to form the foundations (but nothing else).
You could point out to your parents that if they don't allow access the builder won't be able to achieve a good finish on their side and they will have to look at it for the foreseeable.
You are correct that the Access to Neighbourng Land Act only applies to maintenance but once the extension is built the neighbour can invoke it in future.
Rather than online threads, you could check what the actual Act itself states here.
An Act to enable persons who desire to carry out works to any land which are reasonably necessary for the preservation of that land to obtain access to neighbouring land in order to do so; and for purposes connected therewith.
...(2)On an application under this section, the court shall make an access order if, and only if, it is satisfied—
(a)that the works are reasonably necessary for the preservation of the whole or any part of the dominant land
...
(4)Where the court is satisfied on an application under this section that it is reasonably necessary to carry out any basic preservation works to the dominant land, those works shall be taken for the purposes of this Act to be reasonably necessary for the preservation of the land; and in this subsection “basic preservation works” means any of the following, that is to say—
(a)the maintenance, repair or renewal of any part of a building or other structure comprised in, or situate on, the dominant land;
(b)the clearance, repair or renewal of any drain, sewer, pipe or cable so comprised or situate;
(c)the treatment, cutting back, felling, removal or replacement of any hedge, tree, shrub or other growing thing which is so comprised and which is, or is in danger of becoming, damaged, diseased, dangerous, insecurely rooted or dead;
(d)the filling in, or clearance, of any ditch so comprised;
It looks very clear to me that the Act cannot be used to gain access to erect a new building or extend an existing one. I imagine any solicitor would tell the neighbours that making an application under the Act would be bound to fail and cost them a fair bit of money (potentially including the costs of any solicitor/barrister instructed by your parents to defend the case).
I suspect it might be more likely that the neighbour will conveniently forget to tell the builders that they have not obtained permission to remove the fence and use your parent's land for access. To guard against that possibility, I would suggest that your parents keep an eye out for any builders starting work, and at that point tell the builders that they do not have access (and video themselves telling the builders). If the builders then make any move to take down the fence, that would be (I think) criminal damage, and I would then call 101.
As suggested above, if relations have broken down, I would definitely not want to allow builders on my land, given the mess, damage and disruption that they would cause with no prospect of the bad neighbour making sure the builders do not annoy your parents and clean up/make good afterwards.
Your father should allow him to do it but should draw up a contract.
Charge him something ridiculous like £1000 a day for access plus has to return the property to original state.
Also allow him a strict time limit with massive penalties if he goes over. (I saw this on grand designs once)
This way your dad is compensated and he gets one up on his neighbour.
If the neighbour turns this down and summons your dad to court your dad can show that he has been willing to allow access. The argument will be over the cost per day. As long as your dad can justify the cost then he should be fine.
Good luck
Juicy! Get your Dad laying those punji sticks!
Asabove just saying "I want an extension, waaaaahhhh" doesn't give your parents neighbour any rights and as the hate each other there's no profit in co-operating apart from the won't want to look at a plain block wall every time they go to water the gnomes, could they push for a patio/rockery/sex shed as quid pro quo, build some bridges through coercion/blackmail kind of thing?
Maybe you need some kind of insurance policy in the event your garden gets trashed, could the neighbours give you a deposit of sorts that you could keep in the event you need to rebuild your garden?
I'd be wary of letting a load of builders through just on goodwill, as you may need to landscape, re turf, put a new fence up etc. Depending on the extent of the work going on next door.
Not to mention the disruption to your right to privacy.
It's not really a risk you should be expected to take on, on good faith, especially if you don't have great relationships with the neighbour.
Do they have planning permission?
My recent and on going experience of having to give access for maintenance of an adjacent property would lead me to advise them to not let him near. We had a lovely garden and it’s been trashed, plants ripped out, damage to property, litter left out and no courtesy given to us even though we’ve been nothing but amicable. We are yet to see the end and are unsure if we will get the garden back we had without spending our own money. It’s genuinely a ball ache for zero gain to your parents.
If they already don’t get along, unless there are some clear boundaries set, it will be stressful for your parents. Small things, like working on the weekend, storage of materials on their property etc... will cause arguments and hassle.
In a nutshell, if the law’s on your side, don’t entertain it!
Yeah, perhaps they should have appealed the planning permission, but think they shouldve studied the<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> plans in more details to see how invasive it would be.</span>
On one side you have someone going "waahaaa...I want an extension" and on the other my dad going "waaahaaaa...I don't want an extension".
Assuming that the work is notifiable under the Party Wall Act, which sounds very likely, then yes, you have to give the neighbour access to your property to carry out the work if he has served a Party Wall notice and given the appropriate notice of requirement for access. Your father can agree with the neighbour to only provide access at certain times if he has reason, but if there is a dispute then a Party Wall surveyor can be appointed to decide on the award.
He can’t ask for £1000 a day for access (well he could, but the neighbour wouldn’t agree to it and a surveyor would find that his demands were unreasonable, so he wouldn’t get it and it would be a waste of time).
The neighbour has the responsibility under the act to make good any damage he does to your fathers property under the act.
He can be difficult about it if he wants, but he can’t stop it, and being difficult about it will likely cost both time and money, as well as reducing his chances of getting an agreement that he’s happy with.
Personally I would be saying no access and thats it. End of story. I'd put it in writing to the neighbours.
Hi
My neighbour at the bottom of my garden, rather than to the side, wanted to build an extension which came almost to our property boundary.
I had some quite big trees at the bottom of the garden which gave a lot of privacy but I didn’t actually like them and they weren’t that healthy anyway but he wanted me to get rid of them so his foundations didn’t need to be as deep.
Anyway we negotiated a deal where he cut down the tress and got rid of them, provided drainage to the bottom of the garden, erected a ten foot fence between the gardens, bought me a good quality shed and landscaped the bottom third of my garden.
We got on reasonably well anyway and I had to have a quiet word at one point as he was stalling a bit on the landscaping but overall it worked well.
If I hadn’t given him access he would have been stuffed though as stated above he didn’t have an automatic right to cross my boundary as his original house was far enough away to allow maintenance.
Cheers
Steve
I'd be charging a fee too, a realistic one but make it worthwhile.
I d agree but for a large charitable donation, say to local homeless shelter. Everyones a winner then
When we built ours it had to be 1m or more away from next doors boundary ....theres a lot comes into play even if its permissive PP casting shadow etc whilst not a right your dad can sue after the fact it would appear.
As usual plenty of opinions, some appear to be informed, possibly from people who actually know what their talking about . But as posters don't explain their credentials it's impossible to differentiate fact from fiction. Op get your parents to seek independent legal advice, then step away from the mess completely.
Assuming that the work is notifiable under the Party Wall Act, which sounds very likely, then yes, you have to give the neighbour access to your property to carry out the work if he has served a Party Wall notice and given the appropriate notice of requirement for access...
He can be difficult about it if he wants, but he can’t stop it, and being difficult about it will likely cost both time and money, as well as reducing his chances of getting an agreement that he’s happy with.
/a>
The booklet linked to states:
Under the Act, an Adjoining Owner and/or occupier must, when necessary, let in your workmen and your own surveyor or designer etc., to carry out works in pursuance of the Act (but only for those works), and allow access to any surveyor appointed as part of the dispute resolution procedure
Firstly that begs the question of what "when necessary" means. If it's physically impossible without access, then clearly it would be necessary, but if it could be built without access albeit at (not unreasonably?) greater cost, then would access be deemed 'neccesary'? After all, if the materials and equipment could be brought through the neighbour's house, then I would have thought it was not necessary. I suspect 'necessary' means that it is physically impossible or impractical to build the party wall without having access to neighbouring land, not that it is more convenient or less costly for the neighbour if they don't have access.
Secondly, the Party Wall Act would not cover the entire project, only the party wall element. I suppose that it would be conceivably and technically possible for the parents to allow access solely for the purpose of building the party wall. So I guess you could quantify in advance how many bricks would be required for the party wall, e.g. two pallet loads, and allow no more than that number to be transported across the garden, and also limit the duration of access to no more than the one or two days required for the erection of the party wall.
As an aside, re: leaving an unfinished wall for your folks to look at - it's likely that the planing app with have conditions regarding finish of the building to match existing or even agreed materials that should be used. The neighbors saying he couldn't do it because you folks wouldn't let him have access will get him a 'tough, you should have worked out how you were going to satisfy the planning conditions before you started' from a lot of planners.
Personally I would be saying no access and thats it. End of story. I’d put it in writing to the neighbours.
Have you ever owned a house (not a flat)?
My neighbor (old lady) has just had this with next door but one. She was initially resistant to any work going on - but due to the party wall agreement/surveyor advice she ended up looking at a nice rendered wall ,trellis and a landscaped bed rather than blocks & mortar.plus a more private outlook from her lounge. She was only really inconvenienced for four or five days.
The builders were good ,which helped.
How far is it from the boundary? If it falls directly on the boundary then the Party Wall Act will apply for construction. If it is set back a small distance then it could be argued that it is not necessary, only convenient, for his builders to traipse across your garden. Basically the difference between being physically unable to dig foundations and lay blocks, and it just being a total PITA to transport materials, having to block up from the inside rather than outside.
Depends how much your dad likes his new hobby of frustrating his neighbour. If he's being threatened with court already, it may well bring out the obstinate side in him. It's your inheritance, I guess.
Personally I'd try to find some kind of access agreement stipulating the absolute minimum amount of materials that could be brought onto my property, with measures for damage to plants and fencing (and the standard of finish on the wall). Ideally I'd like a sum of money handed over as a deposit against potential damages. As soon as the facing wall is done, they can clear off, even if it means they have to carry their pallets through the neighbour's house.
"But as posters don’t explain their credentials it’s impossible to differentiate fact from fiction"
And following on from my comments above I have been a party wall surveyor for 30 something years. I may also be an idiot though, the two not being mutually exclusive.
Just to repeat one point, the Party Wall etc Act also covers all excavations (and therefore foundations) within 3m of the neighbours' building where the excavation will be deeper than the neighbours' foundations.
Nothing from the OP suggests that party walls are involved in any way. In that case, “go whistle” seems an entirely acceptable response. Assuming you don’t care about getting on with the neighbours.
And following on from my comments above I have been a party wall surveyor for 30 something years.
Out of interest, while I can understand that a PW agreement is a must to cover the possibility of damage arising from excavations etc, what's your view on 'convenience' vs 'necessity' when it comes to digging foundations and laying blockwork?
For example, part of my extension was less than a metre from the boundary, and we went down the PW route, obviously, but there was no question of requiring access, even though it was a bit tight for my builders.
Martinhutch, the builders can access the adjacent property to carry out works covered by the Act provided there is no other way of doing it. It cannot just be because it is more convenient.
OP, could you give some further details on the proposed structure? Does the neighbour want the fence removed and to build on that line?
Hi,
The structure is underway(for the past 6months) The wall is perhaps 30cm from the boundary with the overhanging soffits/fascia all but touching the property boundary.
The irony is all the difficult stuff is done as I personally let the builders in to build the wall adjoining the property back in September whilst they were away on holiday and they were none the wiser, as as pointed out it is rendering the wall to make it look nice and completing the soffits fascia. But they are stubbornly refusing to cooperate, in a classic case of cutting your nose off to spite your face. No one is talking ..and im getting all the shit for trying to be sensible.
I will ask the chap to produce a list of tasks that require access and a definitive time that they will need to complete, perhaps proving that he is trying to minimize disruption.
Well that's different. We're not talking about all the mess of digging foundations etc. It does seem like you need to be the adult and talk your folks down. Or send them on holiday again.
Neighbour needs to pay for your parents to go on hols.
If the building is all but done it sound as unfortunately like your farther is being an arse for no reason. The horse has already bolted.
@Squirrel slightly related question. If (as is common) the boundary is owned by one house (say a pair of semi's with a fence between gardens) can the other house build right to the boundary (i..e extension wall becomes the boundary in place of the fence)? Or do they have to leave a gap as the boundary is not theirs?
Not understanding the reason why the OP's parents are objecting so obviously can't speculate on the specific circumstance, but I would have no objection at all in principle. I'd want assurances that the builder would put things right afterwards and any damage and costs incurred be borne by the neighbour. When I had my extension built the builders needed to pull down the fence between me and my neighbours house to get a small digger into my back garden. Once the digger was in the fence went back up so no ripping up of the neighbours garden at all. Similarly the same a few months later when they took the digger out. I went out of my way to ensure the builders put things right. In fact the neighbour put the fence up and used a cheap contractor who made a crap job of it, so by the time my builders had finished re-erecting the fence it was a much better job than before.
Personally I think even if things are not great with the neighbours then stopping access altogether and preventing their build or incurring significant additional cost is hardly going any way to patch things up or make things more bearable going forward and more likely to deteriorate the relationship going forward, so a small concession like this, with the required caveats of course, is an easy give that might go a long way. But can only speculate on the situation with the OP's parents, but on the face of it seems un-neighbourly and pretty unreasonable. I'd certainly be p'd of if it were me.
Has the neighbour provided any details on the grounds for their potential legal action to obtain access?
What is the orientation of your parents property in relation to the neighbour's property and their extension?
I think chakaping's suggestion is an apposite one, or an offer of similar financial inducement.
But they are stubbornly refusing to cooperate, in a classic case of cutting your nose off to spite your face. No one is talking ..and im getting all the shit for trying to be sensible.
Why don't you just leave them to it, then? Can't help those who won't be helped.
Pita these party wall things.
I was under the assumption that if works needed doing for the upkeep of property then they would have rights for access. But for them to be building an extension and wanting to finish it off is not in my books upkeep.
might be worth a gentle worded conversation with the local council’s planning officer.
I don’t really know too much on the legality of these matters but have experienced difficulty with a certain type of neighbour once or twice before.
it’s often the case where bastad nasty neighbour has chucked good money towards tge council over multiple times for one planning item that they do get what they want.
sad times but corruption never ceases in the UK, it’s just done behind closed doors and stubborn lips.
The grounds for access are pretty clear under the Party Wall Act as described by Squirrel up there. If the proposed soffit is directly adjacent to the boundary, then it's unarguably a necessity for that to be done from the OP's parents' side.
It's a legal development, whether the parents like it or not, and if they force the neighbour to go to court to enforce it, they will most likely lose, and probably have costs awarded against them, even setting aside the point that the OP has somewhat undermined their case by letting the neighbour sneak in to build the thing.
Also, they will have to disclose this ruckus with their neighbour should they ever have to sell, if they let it go that far.
They are being pig-headed at this point, and poor old OP is desperately trying to mediate. I'd go for the 'Look! I've won a cruise! Why don't you go?' approach on the basis that the fees and costs of fighting it all the way would be considerably more.
That’s a biatch of a situation to accept though even if it should be accepted out of saving costs involved with battling those pesky neighbours and their desires.
tbh I think now that I would live and let live whilst charging like above for access.
it sounds all money driven anyway out of greed to make property larger and increase value...
yeah lay some terms and conditions down in hard copy format.
Heads need banging together if the things already built and we're just talking finishings.
Neighbour could pay for them to go on holiday with the promise all work and any other making good will be done in that timeframe.
The other option would be to work out the root cause of you parents frustration, that way you'll have a better idea of how to fix it.
it sounds all money driven anyway out of greed to make property larger and increase value…
seriously? Don’t most families want to increase their space and also maximise their investment as they get older/bigger? It’s about the only way to make money these days too! Hardly greed!
Sort it or they will lay the wall in overhand technique and your parents will not want to look at that everyday.
If it is a structure to which the Party Wall Act applies then, as Squirrel noted above, the neighbour should have followed the procedures specified in that Act, specifically giving notice etc. No mention of whether that has occurred though. However, it hasn't been established that it is actually a structure to which the Act applies. Given that the wall is 30cm away from the boundary, it is not even clear that the structure would be afforded Party Wall status under section 1(5) of the Act. This leaves section 6, adjacent excavations and construction which has been discussed above.
The root cause of the frustration is....he is building an extension, it's that simple. They have been in the property for over 30years and have worked hard to build their little castle, whatever way they look at it they are going to lose sunlight from part of the garden and the dinning room, and the invasive on going noise problem of building work is wearing them down I guess.
Perhaps they are at that age where change isn't easy to accept, I do understand some of their frustration but being a plonker will seldom get you anywhere.
@nixie you can build right up to the boundary line, but have to be careful nothing overhangs, eg fascias or gutters or a parapet coping. If there is just a fence, ie no wall, you have to serve a Line of Junction notice under the Party Wall etc Act. You can project your foundations under the adjoining owner's land, but I would suggest that it is best not to.
I think your dad’s right about not building unless you have room to finish it/maintain it. It seems quite selfish to want to put your neighbours through all that hassle, rather than just make your extension eighteen inches smaller.
And it’s hardly his fault that his idiot son let the builders in to start the damn thing ... 😉
Falling out with your neighbours can come back and bite you when you come to sell as you have to declare it to any new buyers.
I will ask the chap to produce a list of tasks that require access and a definitive time that they will need to complete, perhaps proving that he is trying to minimize disruption.
Hi again, so moving forward I think my opinion of things has changed. I did ask the next door neighbour for a list of tasks and time scales of work to be done and something vague was produced, verbal agreements about me taking the fence down to do work on the fascia/soffits and let the plasterers in. I did take the fence down myself, and the plasterers have been in to render the first coat without issue, however the work hasn't done that he was supposed to do himself on the soffits as per the agreement.
I dont know if I mentioned this before but this extension project is being carried as a hobby project, by the neighbour and some friends at their leisure, to date its been over 8months and have not even had the courtesy of possible completion date. Now he is perfectly entitled to do this, however I'm starting to feel there is no give and take and little acknowledgment of the on going nuisance this is causing. There has been no offer of any reparations aside from a cheap bottle of whisky...it;s not about the money, its about respect. The fence for example was build by my dad and although it has seen better days, he could have offered to replace it as a gesture(my dad wouldn't have accepted it anyway.)
I was fine with the plasterers doing stuff as I spoke with them beforehand, they were professional working quickly and tidily, but not sure I trust him to work to an agreed timeline or without causing damage.
So would I be entitled to demand that the work carried out via my folks property is done via recognized tradesmen with relevant insurance, to a pre-agreed schedule...not a bunch of cowboys?
So would I be entitled to demand that the work carried out via my folks property is done via recognized tradesmen with relevant insurance, to a pre-agreed schedule…not a bunch of cowboys?
The issue here might simply be how do you define 'recognised trademen'. Doesn't mean much for certain trades in this country.
Public Liability insurance? I dunno, whats to stop him sticking a set of ladders through the window and going 'oops'. I guess i'd just like to feel more in control of the situation and less powerless.
Having granted him reasonable access, you're perfectly entitled to set him a deadline to get the fascias/soffits done and the fence back up. Your parents deserve to enjoy whatever spring sunshine eventually turns up in peace without the neighbour turning up to do work from their side.
I would gently remind him that he's lucky to be getting access at all without a fight, and he should get on with it before your patience runs out.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Extension building neighbour 1 is doing something that will profit himself and inconvenience neighbour number 2.
Neighbour 1 should be offering neighbour 2 an amount of cash for this inconvenience. If neighbour 2 doesn't think this is a good deal, then no deal.
If neighbour 2 is doing it out of spite, well then they're just missing out on cash, but that's their choice. Neighbour 1 can't just demand access to someone else's property and throw toys when it doesn't happen.
There's a transaction to be done here. If they can't come to an agreement,then like any area of life, it's not going to happen.
Personally, if I were neighbour 2 then I'd want cash to pay for me to go on a decent holiday for the length of the works, and a decent contract in place regarding over run costs and covering damage.
What a sad post that is . Does everything in life have to have a cash value ?
Having granted him reasonable access, you’re perfectly entitled to set him a deadline to get the fascias/soffits done and the fence back up. Your parents deserve to enjoy whatever spring sunshine eventually turns up in peace without the neighbour turning up to do work from their side.
I would gently remind him that he’s lucky to be getting access at all without a fight, and he should get on with it before your patience runs out.
This is pretty much where i'm at, I feel he's played me abit and taken advantage of my good nature...I feel he hasn't given my folks any sort of courtesy or respect. I want to take a firmer line but I'm not sure how, as i genuinely don't think I trust him or want him on my parents property pissing around.
I think the main problem is the generation gap, your parents would probably never of thought of doing a similar extension partially out of respect to their neighbours, people now don't care & will do whatever it takes to get there own way.
I would now be a proper PITA if someone wanted to do similar to me, builders/neighbours will say whatever it takes to get there own way, but isn't it funny that any work that effects you is always scheduled last?
Make sure your agenda is the priority & if they "run out of money" then it really is their problem.
Cheers.
Appont your own party wall surveyor to survey parents property and make an independent record of it. Then ask them to negotiate access to reasonable conditions to protect their property. Ensure that any transgression results in a heavy response.