You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
There are 3 flats in the attic of my building. Me and t'missus own two, the third is rented out ( reluctantly - the owner cannot sell)
its let out cheap and supposed to be for two people and no pets. I have known the owner for =a long time and helped keep an eye on her aged father when he lived there
The dilemma - there is at least 4 folk living it it - I think the owner would turn a blind eye to that but they have a big dog - Alsatian sort of thing. I know she would not want it and they know as well - " Its a friends we are looking after" as they said to me when I met them on the stairs
Apart from leaving the door ajar on occasion they are fine as neighbours - not bothering me at all. But I know the owner would not want a dog there.
Do I dob them in? They have been there a few months. I also know the agent that is looking after the flat so I could do it very easily just suggest to the agent they might want to do an inspection
Or am I being an interfering old busybody?
Is the dog bothering you? Can you hear it chewing the furniture? If not then the latter.
If I’d known the owner for ages I’d probably have a word.
How would the owner feel if they value your friendship and they felt you did nothing to warn them a dog was ruining their flat?
Not being a busy body at all. A dog can cause hundreds of pounds of damage to a rental flat. Worth a mention and let them decide
If you've known the owner for a long time, do you think they would want you to tell them about the dog?
If you've known the dog for a long time, how would the owner feel about you telling the renters?
Could be a counter intelligence, deep cover strike from Mumsnet?
Anyway, if it's a nice dog and they look after it properly then you could maybe broach the subject for them?
Happy to pay additional cleaning, wear and tear?
Decent dogs are excellent to be around, but other people's decent dogs are a pure win win.
Do you hate dogs? Could it be this that is subconsciously motivating you?
If they and the dog cause you no angst then personally I would leave. Better the devil you know and all that.
When I rented a property I actively looked for a dog owner as they care for their animal and have limited access to rental accommodation so therefore my twisted logic is that they actually look after it.
Maybe an inspection just to check everything is ok?
Is the dog wearing a bike helmet and have you kicked it yet? 😉
“Better the devil you know”
This.
I'd ask the dog's view on a 2nd referendum first, only then can we decide if it's fit to remain
If they are good neighbours, I'd take it at face value that they are looking after the dog.
Better the devil you know +1
I think you are in Scotland, but in England cases where a tenant has been served eviction notice for pet ownership have been thrown out of court. The judge said its the human right of tenants to own pets irrespective of the contract.
My agent told me this, he would know as he works for a national chain and is the area boss. Maybe the court cases were about cats and goldfish, not big dogs though.
I would speak with the owner if you know him well.
When I rented a property I actively looked for a dog owner as they care for their animal and have limited access to rental accommodation so therefore my twisted logic is that they actually look after it.
This could be true, but your agreement with tenants specifically allowed dogs. If the tenants are breaking the rules as TJ's neighbours are, they'll almost certainly start breaking plenty of others.
Did the dog go to boarding school?
You don't like dogs.
You have decent neighbours, who cause you no trouble.
Why would you want them evicted? That's pretty nasty.
If you grass them up and they get evicted I hope you get the neighbours from hell.
Folk who own property they don't live in deserve all they get.
Get them evicted and the next non dog owning tenants might be having parties to 3am every weekend. Not your job to police neighbours flat where it isn't affecting you.
scotroutes
Member
Folk who own property they don’t live in deserve all they get.
My neighbor has little choice. She lives in Spain, her father died who used to live in the flat and she cannot sell due to ongoing stat notice issues!
The issue is that my neighbour and the agent do not know that there are more folk in the flat than should be - its breaching regs as its not and HMO and that threre is a dog in there. Would I want to know if the positions were reversed? Yes.
I have known her 20+ years
Interesting that as usual very contradictory advice here! I hoped it would come down on one side or the other as at the same time as wanting to protect the owners interests I do also recognize that these are basically OK neighbours and have done nowt to me personally
Folk who own property they don’t live in deserve all they get.
Yep.
Also, anyone who has a dog in a flat in a city centre, especially a mahoosive big thing like that, needs their baws booted.
Folk who own property they don’t live in deserve all they get.
My neighbor has little choice. She lives in Spain, her father died who used to live in the flat and she cannot sell due to ongoing stat notice issues!
You thought that was a dig at your neighbour?
It wasn't? 😉
If you were the owner of the flat would you want to be told the tenants are breaching the lease conditions?
I wouldn't put tenancy conditions on a let without good reason so if they were being broken I'd want to know. However, your neighbour's agent should be doing inspections anyway so should pick up any issues. I suppose you could suggest they throw in an odd random inspection - if the renters can make a flat occupied by 4 and a big dog look like it's occupied by 2 having only had a couple of days notice there probably isn't a problem.
However, your neighbour’s agent should be doing inspections anyway so should pick up any issues. I suppose you could suggest they throw in an odd random inspection
They don't do random inspections and this is what I thought of suggesting " it might be a good idea to do an inspection"
I think you are in Scotland, but in England cases where a tenant has been served eviction notice for pet ownership have been thrown out of court. The judge said its the human right of tenants to own pets irrespective of the contract.
This made me wonder, and there's some truth to it. You have the right to ask permission to keep a pet, and a refusal has to be reasonable. Small attic flat keeping a goldfish perfectly reasonable, large dog not so much.
Link.
https://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2016/10/04/tenant-penalties-breaching-tenancy-rules-pets/
If you value your neighbours and the dog doesn't bother you, don't dob them in. You never know who might replace them.
Renting in Edinburgh with a doggo is pretty tough going. We finally managed to get a decent flat purely because the floors were already a bit past their best even though I knew our dog would do zero damage. I even worked out that the owner had bought the flat for £160k 16 years ago and had done 0 work to it since yet was charging £1300 a month for rent.
Basically I'm saying if they seem nice and the doggo seems friendly I'd turn a blind eye.
If you were the owner of the flat would you want to be told the tenants are breaching the lease conditions?
Ethics aside, I'd want to be told if they were breaching lease conditions and that was causing damage to my property. But obviously doing that without inspecting the flat is problematic.
One option might be to see if they'll let you have quick informal look at the flat to make sure the dog's not damaging it - kind of an off the record inspection - but of course doing that risks opening a whole other can of worms and it depends on your having a friendly enough relationship with them that you can raise the issue without it seeming intrusive.
Interesting that as usual very contradictory advice here! I hoped it would come down on one side or the other
Well, like a lot of things in life, it's not black and white unless you choose to adhere strictly to a set of regulations. You have to balance the pros and cons of whatever you choose to do and come to a decision. The easy one is simply to do nowt and deal with the consequences - of there are any - later. Mostly they would, worst case, be that the dog ate the flat and you chose not to tell the owner what was potentially going on. She feels resentful from a long way away, you feel guilty. Best case: no-one ever knows.
If you get involved and your neighbours realise this, you risk having to live in a building with neighbours who resent you. Oh, and potentially they have to find a new flat / re-home the dog.
I think if you knew that the dog was eating the flat, the decision's pretty straightforward, but actually knowing whether or not that's the case is tricky.
How's your strict moral compass? 😉
I'll keep an eye on the Edinburgh evening news for "Man mauled by dog" when they work out you've dobbed them in.
I’ll keep an eye on the Edinburgh evening news for “Man mauled by dog” when they work out you’ve dobbed them in.
Also look out for "Dog kicked in head. Saved by helmet"
Anyway, as always , the answer to TJ's question is....
Don't be a dobber.
I think if you knew that the dog was eating the flat, the decision’s pretty straightforward, but actually knowing whether or not that’s the case is tricky.
I have a cunning plan...
"Accidentally" take some of their post, then knock on the door to deliver it personally. Have a wee look around the door when they answer...
It would be "man bites dog"
If you were the owner of the flat would you want to be told the tenants are breaching the lease conditions?
My assumption here was that the lease being breached wasn't the one between tenants and owner but rather owner and ???
@TJ When you say flat for two people do you mean a one bed flat or two bed flat. Don't know about Scotland but here flats are let on number of rooms not number of people.
As a (reluctant) landlord, I'd appreciate a message from one of my old neighbours if they thought something might be amiss with the house.
If I were TJ, I'd have a quiet word with the owner, since I know them, and just make them aware, "I've no problem with the tenants and I don't want to see them evicted, but I think you'd be concerned that they have a big dog. They say they are looking after it for somebody else so you might want to remind them of the contract and ask them to find somebody else to take it."
You say
The dilemma – there is at least 4 folk living it it – I think the owner would turn a blind eye to that but they have a big dog
But you then say..
The issue is that my neighbour and the agent do not know that there are more folk in the flat than should be
To me this sounds as if the issue is you & dogs with very little to do with protecting your neighbour’s interests
Your neighbours are close and the owner lives in Spain.
Upset neighbours can be a pain in the arse, someone in Spain can’t really bother you.
I’d leave it.
The obvious solution is for TJ to buy the neighbouring flat and evicting the dog, thereby solving his neighbours problem, increasing his vice like grip on the Leith property market and furthering his ongoing canine vendetta.
It's a win-win-win scenario.*
*not for the dog.
To me this sounds as if the issue is you & dogs with very little to do with protecting your neighbour’s interests
And why would that be an issue? I'm no a dog lover (tbh, it's more doggy folk that annoy me! 🙂 ) and if I was in a city centre flat I wouldn't be too enamoured with a mutt next door. Tbf Alsations are not particularly noisy though, granted.
It’s a win-win-win scenario.
Winalot.
Tbf Alsations are not particularly noisy though, granted.
Except when they're being bummed.
Apparently.
And why would that be an issue? I’m no a dog lover
Well. He’s framing this as him looking after his absent neighbour. Whereas he actually doesn’t want a dog living next to him. = hypocrisy in my book.
Winalot.
Well played Nobber 🙂
I think the over-crowding issue is the problem here more than the dog. If anything happens and people get burned to death - how would you feel ? It also may void the owner's insurance.
If you were the landlord would you want a friendly neighbour to let you know ?
I would tell them, in a friendly non-complainy "for your info" kind of way.
My sister has just moved into a house they have let for 18 months, the dog there has ruined various soft furnishings.
I'd let them know.
Would I want to know if the positions were reversed? Yes.
There's your answer then. If and when they do find out, the first question would be "why did my mate Jezza of 20 years not say owt?"
Ultimately, whether or not the tenants' behaviour is acceptable or not is not TJ's decision to make, it's the landlord's. TJ won't be saying "they've got 4 people and a dog, you must evict them immediately!" but rather he's empowering the owner to make an informed decision.
Looking after a dog for a couple of weeks seems plausible. For several months, they're lying.
the dog there has ruined various soft furnishings.
Not all dogs eat houses. Mine are fine.
I think the over-crowding issue
How is it over-crowded? 4 people living in a flat? According to shelter it isn't "over-crowded".
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/check_if_your_home_is_overcrowded_by_law
The flat belongs to the woman in Spain who I have known for 20 years. She has asked me to keep an eye on the flat.
The contract will be between the tenants and the agent who is acting on behalf of the owner
The flat is not overcrowded but with 4 people in it needs to be registered as an HMO which requires amongst other things a proper fire alarm which it doesn't have
My concern is for the flat interior. Previous tenants had a cat which damaged furniture and upset the owner.
I am caught between wanting to do right by the owner but not being a shit to the people living there. It would be easy if they were bad neighbours but they are OK and the dog does not bark or cause a nuisance
The flat is not overcrowded but with 4 people in it needs to be registered as an HMO which requires amongst other things a proper fire alarm which it doesn’t have
How do you know that it requires to be a HMO?
If they are part of a family group then it doesn't need to be. In fact if 2 of them are a couple then that would be fine as well.
Have this conversation with the neighbour, the next time you bump into them.
"Hi, I'm TJ. You may remember me from such epic internet arguments as helmets and politics..
Look, I don't want to get you into trouble or anything, but the owner of your flat has asked me to keep an eye on the place and she really hates dogs, because we're all a bit like that round here.
I remember you said that you were only looking after it for a while so, she might be fine with that....but, i'm in the position where, the next time I'm talking to her I can't really not let on.
It's what I agreed to do, after all , I'm sure you understand.
Is this your dog? Does he enjoy bumming?"
HOOOOOF!
Gobuchal
HMO regs are very strict in Edinburgh. It certainly is being used as one. This is why it is only let for two to share officially.
In all seriousness I’d just chat to the neighbours. Tell them you know the owner and it’s putting you in an awkward position.
The dog will keep your bike safe.
Worse neighbours could move in!
No problems? Leave it.
perchypanther
Member
The obvious solution is for TJ to buy the neighbouring flat and evicting the dog, thereby solving his neighbours problem, increasing his vice like grip on the Leith property market and furthering his ongoing canine vendetta.It’s a win-win-win scenario.*
*not for the dog.
Steady on - we don’t even know if it has a smart meter fitted or not!
HMO regs are very strict in Edinburgh. It certainly is being used as one.
It doesn't matter how strict they are, if the 4 people are from the same family, it's not a HMO.
It's not four people from the same family. It's only let for two people to avoid HMO status.
If there was a punch up on the landing between the owner and tenants, who would you instinctively go to the aid of?
That's probably whose side you'd want to come down on in these sorts of things with too many folks and dogs in the flat.
@TJ When you say flat for two people do you mean a one bed flat or two bed flat. Don’t know about Scotland but here flats are let on number of rooms not number of people.
In Scotland, for reasons somewhere between nimbyism and reasonable regulation of landlords renting out flat shares, 3+ people means you need an HMO license.
I kind of opened this thread hoping to see TJ being a busybody, but I think in his situation I would let the owners know - they could be in trouble for not having HMO etc mostly, rather than the dog.
It is a tricky one though.
Report them and then advertise at the local university hospital for nurses and more nurses.
Report them and then advertise at the local university hospital for nurses and more nurses.
Have you seen the nurses from that hospital?
Some of them look like Charles Bronson
Some of them look like
Charles BronsonTJ
Well thank you all for helping me make up my mind. 9 dob them in, 11 don't be a grass, 17 suggestions about doing obscene things to the dog
Very decisive. Bum the dog and its all sorted
My neighbour has little choice. She lives in Spain
Well your neighbour could move. That's a choice. (I've corrected your misspelling of neighbour).
the best policy is to say nothing and if later accused, deny you knew anything in the first place.
Ask yourself "what would Jesus do?"
( reluctantly – the owner cannot sell)
They want more money than it's worth for it.
As for denouncing your good neighbours - Stasi, Vichy France, milice... .
TJ has explained why the owner can't sell - there is an ongoing legal case with the Council over statutory repairs - nothing in the building can be sold until that it resolved.
We really are in the midst of a generation of cartoon character ignorance. Don't bother with facts and reading detail anybody just snarkily put forward your personal prejudicial twist, and throw in a comparison to historical events that lead to the deaths of thousands of innocent people. This is THAT important.
(sorry I know - must not feed the obvious troll)
I have known her 20+ years
Then you know what to do. Let her know.
Seems a pretty simple and straightforward one this. If the flat is rented out on the understanding that there are no pets then the neighbours are in the wrong. Doesn't matter how nice they are. By bringing a pet into the place they are being completely disrespectful to the owner's wishes. She will have her reasons for stating no pets and, as it is her property, then thems are the rules. The neighbours do not have to rent that property. They are probably renting it because, as TJ says, it is on the market at a cheap price. People have many reasons for their choices and preferences. Some are a bit odd and some are very understandable. She may actually like animals but doesn't want pets in the place because she knows that some people have allergic reactions or intolerances to them. Which could limit who she is able to sell or rent the place out to once these neighbours have moved on. The pets may also cause damage to the property. It's all very well some of you pet owners saying "well my dog / cat / goat / whatever doesn't damage the house" - but that's kind of irrelevant isn't it, as it's not your pet in the flat next door to TJ. And, if we are blunt about it, looking after the pet for some friends for a short time - doesn't really wash. It's a pet. It's an animal. They are not permitted in the property so they shouldn't have offered to look after it. I would probably take the approach mentioned above and chat to the neighbours and say that you speak regularly to the owner as you have been friends for a long time and you can't help noticing the dog. Check that they are aware that the owner does not want pets in the place and give them the option to give it back to the "owners". Make it clear that you will find it difficult to avoid telling the owner about the dog as it is one of the things she asks. If it turns out that it is actually the neighbours pet then it's a problem they have brought on themselves. It may feel harsh but, knowing that the tenancy prohibits pets, then they should have given it a bit more thought in the first place
You can buy and sell property with all sorts of legal wrangles going on. The buyer buys the legal wrangle along with the property, I've done it. Risks are reflected in the price. It would require more than the explanation we've been given to convince me there's a legal block on the sale, Hels. A link to a court order would help.
Legally it could be sold. Practically it cannot due to the ongoing legals .Thats a simple statement of fact. I happen to know the facts in this case. You do not. What experience do you have of buying flats in Edinburgh with outstanding and disputed statutory notices? do you even know what this is?
Bought and sold much in Scotland?
The point here is simple and I am conflicted because I don't want to be a shit to the tenants nor do I want to let down my friend who asked me to keep an eye on the flat.
Opinion here is divided. I like to ask questions like this on here because it is not an echo chamber. You get a diversity of views which is helpful in giving perspective
Your neighbour has a contract with an agency. It’s the agency’s problem not yours. I presume she is paying something for their service.
It’s nothing to do with you. When you kept an eye out for her elderly father, there was no contract, implicit or otherwise. Hence acting or not was not on the basis of fulfilling a contract of any type. A typical friendly request without obligation. In this case the agency is not fulfilling its part of the contract with your friend.
Kill the dog and one neighbour.
Sorted.
Murder-notoriety may help with selling the flat to the occult-ist buyer group
I don’t want to be a shit to the tenants nor do I want to let down my friend
You're not being a shit to the tenants. You're bringing a potential issue to the attention of the agent. It's then up to the agent / owner to decide whether they want to be a shit to the tenants.
(And if it eases your conscience any, the tenants are already being shits to the owner.)
I've never understood this "don't be a grass" mentality, it just empowers scrotes to carry on being scrotey without fear of consequence. TJ in in Edinburgh, not Wormwood Scrubs.