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"Nae borra big man"?
these two interactions just brought the thought to the forefront. Its an observation of many years cycling and seems fairly consistent
With the common denominator being cycling (and TJ). Makes you think.
I'd agree with your observation TJ.
Fur coat and nae knickers types. Very closely related to the Red Sock Brigade.
Think they're better than everyone else, but in reality are internally miserable so hate to see other people enjoying things "differently" from their own version of "enjoyment".
I ran into one around Newtongrange a few weeks ago while out having an explore. As soon as I seen her, I just knew she was gearing up for a confrontation, but I wasn't in a rush, so took the wind out her sails by stopping and giving her a cheery hello as she walked past with her dog. I could sense her internal rage as she scowled on the way past.
Neds on the other hand are generally far more care free without any sense of entitlement. Some might be eyeing you up to see what they can pinch, but at least they don't pretend to be anything else.
probably. I know loads of middle-class kids who dress like “roadmen”, call each other chav/chavvie etc. they’re just following fashion/urban culture. They’re not actually drug-dealers/yobs/petty criminals.I have heard Neds self describing as such – does that make them middle claaaassss like me
It is really a lazy pejorative stereotype but the Ned is not the same as the general joggers and hoody wearing youth. Its a distinct subculture
This I think is the bit I don't get. Apart from their clothes, why did you label them Neds (and not general joggers and hoody wearing youths)? If your only interaction with them was as you described - them being polite - why do they get pigeonholed?
Genuinely interested, as I work with young people. Specifically, 17/18 year olds leaving the care system who get a lot of this kind of labelling. Some are what you would call a Ned (they would aspire to be roadmen) but the vast majority are kids that have had a shit start in life, who get lumped in to the same stereotype.
Ahem. As someone identifying as an ex 'Roadmen' I object to my group being brought into this discussion about errant/non errant yoofs. We have feelings too y'know...
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Just in case 🙃
Dunno sc xc difficult question.
Is it a bit -"you know when you see them" even if hard to describe why? . a bit like knowing its a sparrow or a meadow pipit ? The uniform is subtly different? I seem to be able to distinguish between what appears to be working class youth and the "ned" but how? and of course how accurate am I being.
Its not just this one youth - I have seen this many times.
Flipping heck - a lighthearted post turns into a deep sociological question 🙂
I am sure as you suggest that many folk see all sportswear wearing youth as "neds" but we know that is not so.
^ cheers TJ and genuinely not trying to start a debate, I guess we all have our unconscious biases and preconceptions - I know I do
Its a good question.
Most of my cycling interactions tend to be with MCWs as they're the demographic most likely to be out and about in the countryside.
A lot of entitlement about. I try my best to ignore them. Interacting with my thick, working class, brummie accent seems to irritate them all the more.
Ah yes the ones who move to the opposite side of the path to their dog are almost my favourite but I save top spot to those who call their dog across once you are within a couple of feet rather than leave it where it is.
I noticed when I used to go mountain biking that the sorts of people who were often calling you out for some spurious offence, shooting you dirty looks or generally getting the hump about something were often, to my mind, the exact same people who would cross the road to avoid me if I was walking home from the pub or I had met them in literally any other context.
These days I do a bit of trail running as well as cycling and I often feel more relaxed doing it as it seems to be the only activity that doesn’t offend somebody or other.
Bit surprised anyone above the age of about 25 hasn't figured out that there are dicks in all walks of life.
tjagain
Full Member
“Neds” surely you mean “schemies” ?Ohhh – now thats interesting. Whats the difference? Schemie more pejorative
Schemie is just a term for someone brought up on a council housing estate or in Scotland a scheme.
I was a schemie.
NED on the other hand belongs to Bill Knox and Crimedesk on STV in the 70s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_(Scottish)
I really **** hate bells
On the way home from work last week I gave a cheery 'just passing you' to a couple wandering up the NCN7 - to which she stated 'get a bell!' and he stated 'oh, I prefer voices. I hate bells'.
Cannot win!
My only guess is a first date and they have different views?
Preconceptions are funny things. The reality is often the mirror of what you'd expect, IME.
Back in my tech support days, the worst people to deal with were what you might call "professionals." Doctors, teachers, lawyers, that sort of thing. It may well be an entitlement issue as TJ suggests; I always chalked it down to not being able to handle being told what to do.
On discovering that I used to drink at the local biker bar, my cousin commented "OMG you don't go in there do you? It's full of drugs and fighting!" I never saw any drugs and you'd have to have had a death wish to pick a fight in the Hope & Anchor. Places like that tend to be somewhat self-policing. The only bar brawls I ever saw were in rural pubs and faux-upmarket places like Yates' Wine Bar.
Consequences. As a sensi of mine used to say, the world was a more respectful place when everyone wore a sword on their hip.
Ah, that would be why large swathes of America is frightfully polite.
Not rung your bell. I know, I know, but to some that’s a red rag.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I've lost count of the number of times I've slowly ridden up behind a group, dinging away like a Hyundai seatbelt alarm when you've left a grape on the passenger seat, to be met with "where's your bell?"
On the way home from work last week I gave a cheery ‘just passing you’ to a couple wandering up the NCN7 – to which she stated ‘get a bell!’ and he stated ‘oh, I prefer voices. I hate bells’.
Solution: ride up behind them yelling "DING!" 😁
Solution: ride up behind them yelling “DING!”
Depends on the attractiveness of the couple: expand to a 'ding! dong!'...
I know loads of middle-class kids who dress like “roadmen”, call each other chav/chavvie etc. they’re just following fashion/urban culture. They’re not actually drug-dealers/yobs/petty criminals.
I have a special hatred for the 30 something's that talk like characters in Phone Shop.
Came across a classes of primary kids walking in the country on a windy day. Had to shout to make myself heard didn't really go down well. Got asked if I didn't have a bell. Then half the kids started making ding ding noises. Leading teachers jumped when I shouted excuse me so more remarks. That was fun. Usually rarely see anyone.
These angry dogwalkers are probably people who realised that they cant walk their dog while sitting in the drivers seat of their Audi/BMW/Tesla and are just taking out their natural rage on cyclists.
These angry dogwalkers are probably people who realised that they cant walk their dog while sitting in the drivers seat of their Audi/BMW/Tesla and are just taking out their natural rage on cyclists.
Yes let's judge people we don't know by their choice of car, that makes a lot of sense and doesn't sound at all like a chip on shoulder type comment. In fact I can now see what they mean by "angry cyclists".
Can I add another middle-class impolite moment?
Last night's campsite - full to bursting. The family with the biggest van and awning, two nearly new 'premium' cars. They decide at 8pm to break out the bagpipes and 2x drums so thier kids can seranade the whole site. For 40 bloomin minutes, while mum and dad video it and look oddly at anyone heading to drop kids off at the pool rather than fawn over thier pipe band.
One of the caravans in our section had just put down the twin toddlers...not happy is an understatement.
Same pipe van when I went to loos at 10pm had gaggle of teens playing cards in the awning, and just like my kids they were making a massive racket when they play.
TBF, at 10.30 on the dot they quietened down.
Just seems in appropriate on a campsite...
faux-upmarket places like Yates’ Wine Bar.
Blimey they must have changed. I thought they were firmly in the dog rough category.
These are the only Neds I care about.
TBF, at 10.30 on the dot they quietened down.
Just seems in appropriate on a campsite…
Whilst that would annoy the piss out of me also, if someone is expecting silence from an entire campsite at 8pm because they have toddlers then they probably shouldn't have been on a campsite in the first place. At 2am I'd have considerably more sympathy.
I've had Edinburgh folk on paths stare me in the eye and ignore my cheery hello. Most city folk at least pretend to ignore you by looking in the other way.
There is a reason that if I prefer to ride early or late. The pre/post lunch folk are the worst to maneuver around.
Ain't nowt queerer than folk. Just look them hooligans dressed like power rangers riding their bikes in a dangerous way in the woods. They should know better at their age. 😉
My route out to the Peaks is through parks, some of which have designated cycle paths. I've had a variety of comments and old-fashioned looks but was quite flattered by 'you're going too fast' for someone of advanced years. Anyway, I've just fitted a bell and am intrigued by comments above and a bit apprehensive about how it will go down.
Incidentally, are 'Neds' more of a lumpen proletarian counterculture rather than a subculture? 'Middle class' is a confusion caused by the 'moral value' put on classifying a job by TCH Stephenson in the 1911 census. You're either an empoyee or an employer, both can have dogs.
I think there's a fairly simple explanation.
Middle class... read the Daily Heil, tory hypocrotical xenophobes, whom, despite not being the The Landed, still kow tow to the upper classes and think bikers shouldn't be allowed.
(Yet by the same logic THEY shouldn't be walkimg on land stolen from the masses and given to cronies in the 17+18 hundreds. That seems totally lost on them).
Just me? Just Edinburgh or is this a wider phenomenon?
Just Edinburgh. In Milngavie I have had nothing but politeness and resonable behaviour from other users of shared paths. Same on the likes of the Kelvin Walkway. Give and take by everyone.
Yes, it sounds that way.
Barthes would approve of your post.
I bet Barthes was run over by that lorry after stepping into road to avoid a fresh dog egg
I remember an old couple having a 'go' for me not ringing my bell. I politely replied, "I did, THREE TIMES".
Deaf coots !
I bet Barthes was run over by that lorry after stepping into road to avoid a fresh dog egg
That would make the semiotics of his death even neater as it was a laundry van! Bloody Sorbonnard as Poujade must have said!
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat
Worth remembering. Most people in the UK (I could be wrong - but I genuinely feel, and often think about) live 'in the gray twilight' of life - no hobbies to speak of, etc. Not really much point to their lives. People like 'us' - visibly enjoying themselves partaking in a pastime, whilst simultaneously working our cardio system, is probably a pretty alien thing. It's a sad reality really. But to maximise the experience of life, one has to constantly push - whether that be physically, or pushing oneself out the door to chase a hobby, etc.
Ramble but I feel it's somewhat relevant
Neds (is this a scottish word? I assume you mean chavs?) probably live a more enjoyable life than most weird, dull middle class people who try and look posh in an expensive pub.
Ned is scottish. similar to Chav but perhaps a smaller and more distinct subculture
So what are the distinctions?
NED- Non Educated Delinquent
CHAV - Council House And Violent.
Perhaps more distinct as in more obvious / clearly demarcated - but as above actually quite hard to define.
This is a pair of neds Note the tipped back baseball cap and bottle of buckie
NED- Non Educated Delinquent
thats made up after the fact - some discussion on the origins of the word in earlier posts
Middle class… read the Daily Heil, tory hypocrotical xenophobes
Well according to Stevenson middle class means those who are not working class or upper class. I would hazard a guess that a large proportion of them are in fact Guardian readers.
Yesterday’s ride was Milngavie, Westie, John Muir Way, Croftamie area, so very much in the posh part of the West.
Huge amount of rude folks on foot tbh. As a dog owner I’m always very considerate, slowing, stopping, talking to the dog etc. My primary observation yesterday though was not so much around localish folks with dogs, more the Easter weekend walkers and some real pretentious behaviours and just plain rudeness about sharing some space with other people.
I had a back wheel failure and had to call my wife to rescue me from the bike shop in Killearn, where I had a pleasant hour getting high on Keith’s coffee 👌🤪
We got buzzed a cracker on way home by a blue McLaren on the GSO, we were going around 70 ish, it must’ve been doing 130 plus, maybe a Ned or Chav ? 😁
Class definitions. We have the maxist one ie bourgeoisie or proletariat or the social economic ones - upper middle and lower class. Take your pick
Our local canal towpaths aren't too bad for riding along, because we live in a very outdoor type place. However the rudest lot are mainly dog owners. These are mostly the type who haven't had a dog before and can't be bothered training it, don't have the time to train it or just want a cute fur baby and sod everybody else. There are lots of dog owners who know how to train a dog, are friendly and always say hello. Not noticed their class though.
It's been busy with a lot of visitors over the last few days, especially in the nice weather and they don't seem to be able to say hello.
Class definitions
... haven't been a thing for a while, at best it's a spectrum. How do you differentiate between upper working class and lower middle class? What about non-working class, the neds you were talking about?
I believe chav was originally a Romany word meaning young child or toddler used as an insult for young men.
Aye. As these things almost always are, the whole "council house" blah blah is a backronym.
I'm sure it's all been covered in the last four pages but it's definitely a thing in Edinburgh. The fancier the bit of town you're riding through, the greater the sense of entitlement dog walkers and people of a certain age in particular have.
Dogs are a general menace but in less fancy bits of town people seem more courteous and more aware, rather than walking toward you three abreast with a cocker spaniel tearing about and showing complete ignorance of the cyclist riding towards them on the edge of the path ringing their bell. When they eventually decide to do something the dog ignores all calls but they don't do anything about actually moving their arses and going to get it or grabbing it by the collar and dragging it out of everyone else's way.
People also tend to walk on the left of the path more in less fancy areas, like they should (and like the signs tell them to) but in, say, Polwarth or Ravelston it's a bloody free for all. In fact, in Wester Hailes someone keeps going to the effort of guerilla marking the left of the path with direction arrows.
It's the same with cyclists too. Ned riding a shitty bike slowly minding their own business, fine. Middle aged guy tearing home to Craiglockhart yells at folk about their lights and stuff. And I know you do that TJ. My wife points out it's always men. The lights may be a bit dazzling but a man riding towards a woman yelling at her is genuinely intimidating and scary.
Runners are a pain too. If two people are walking toward each other on the shared path and there's no room to pass til they've crossed each other, or if a cyclist has rung their bell and entered the tiny space under a canal bridge, wait. Don't barge through. And take your earphones out so you can hear bells and other people. That doesn't happen in the rough bits of town either.
Cool starry bra: I graduated from Sunderland early 2000s and heard the term 'charver' a lot while up there but don't recall ever hearing chav, as when back home in Kent a short while later remember hearing chav in use and assumed people were just getting charver all wrong. So thought it weird that the 'a' in both was the inverse pronunciation of more general 'a' ie 'charver' up north and 'chav' down south. shrug.
What always surprises me about impromptu abuse is how people have it primed and ready to go on the tip of their tongue. I'm not talking about generic all-purpose swearing, rather bespoke abuse for the situation.
There’s an awesome amount of confirmation bias on this thread
The 'wrong-uns' round my way certainly have a dress code.
The trakky bottoms can be black, or grey with visible stains on them, and if they cant afford a fake north face puffa jacket, then a plain black hoodie from primark is acceptable... the dress code isn't too strict.
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And I know you do that TJ. My wife points out it’s always men. The lights may be a bit dazzling but a man riding towards a woman yelling at her is genuinely intimidating and scary.
Hmm - I just shout - "point your light down - its dazzling" and I cannot tell if its a man or a woman because of the dazzle. I dont shout abuse - just to ask them not to dazzle
Interesting that yo see the same phenomenon re the entitlement tho
I don't think it matters what you're shouting TJ, or if you can't tell if it's a man or a woman. If it is a woman, you're a man riding towards a woman yelling and that's incredibly threatening.
I wonder if the entitlement is city specific, I've not ridden in urban Glasgow much so can't compare the two places.
I'll ponder that. I'm not sure that gives them a carte blanch to cycle antisocially which is what the over bright dazzling lights are. But I will ponder it.
I wonder if the entitlement is city specific,
Its would seem it maybe is from the responses.
I graduated from Sunderland early 2000s and heard the term ‘charver’ a lot while up there but don’t recall ever hearing chav, as when back home in Kent a short while later remember hearing chav in use and assumed people were just getting charver all wrong.
I was at school at the time and remember Chav coming in to the general usage.
Before then, the word we used for the be-tracksuited aspiring petty criminal rhymed with Likey. It was never intended as a reference to the travelling community in any way, it specifically refered to the people mentioned in this thread.
(Those of the travelling community were refered to by words that rhymed with Poughkeepsie or hippo)
Chavs were townies when I was at secondary school.
I wonder if we remember the outliers - chavs being polite and ostensibly middle-class folk being rude - because it's incongruous? All the folk who behave according to type get forgotten.
I don’t think it matters what you’re shouting
If I am riding along and someone shouts something at me it usually sounds like "mmugh mugh murrgh". With wind noise it's pretty tricky to discern if it's a friendly request or otherwise.
If I am riding along and someone shouts something at me it usually sounds like “mmugh mugh murrgh”.
When I was a lad it was "geroff and milk it". Today I cycled past several pedestrians, dog walkers and a horse rider. All were polite, I can't comment on their social groups. Oh and one young lad who, had I been judgmental I might have thought likely to hurl an insult, gave me a thumbs up!
TJ - I suspect your lack of response to the the original apology is at the heart of what happened. The fact that they hadn't immediately acted in the manner you wanted is no reason to not respond in an amenable way. Simple pleasantries are the lube that keeps society from disintegrating. As soon as these are removed (such as in a car or on social media) everyone behaves like a ****.
First adjust your own behaviour
Just been for a spin today along a very popular disused railway and coastal cliff path near Arbroath. No issue with anyone, lots of people with dogs and not paying attention (ears phones in), but polite and friendly when I said 'Hi, please can I get past' and 'Thanks'.
Maybe being Scotland makes a difference as there isn't the 'no bikes on public footpaths' situation as there are no 'public footpaths'. Even on the pavements in town (not worth riding on the central dual carriageway even though it's a 30) as long as you're being sensible and not racing along no-one seems to care
maybe. I'm not in Scotland though but I can count on one hand the instances where anyone has said anything about cycling on the pavement or footpath (both of which I do fairly often!) but obviously always cycle considerately, am always polite & dismount if it gets busy. Certainly never had anyone start swearing/ranting! This is in stark comparison to the abuse & hatred I have encountered for simply cycling [I]on the road[/I] which ironically is where I am supposed to be 🙄 😂Maybe being Scotland makes a difference
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
TJ – I suspect your lack of response to the the original apology is at the heart of what happened. The fact that they hadn’t immediately acted in the manner you wanted is no reason to not respond in an amenable way. Simple pleasantries are the lube that keeps society from disintegrating. As soon as these are removed (such as in a car or on social media) everyone behaves like a ****.
First adjust your own behaviour
</div>
Its certainly possible but the apology made was very passive aggressive and they made no attempt to let me past on a 5m wide path and went immediately to shouting abuse when I was silent for no more than a few seconds? they had seen me for around 30 seconds before this but made no effort to let me past and the "apology" did not come until after I had been forced deliberately by them to stop
They were clearly spoiling for a fight. Should I say thanks when they have done nothing to be thanked for indeed when they have been deliberately awkward? She made not attempt to move either herself or the dog out of the way. Her on one side of a 5 m path, dog on an extending lead the other. They were shouting abuse before they let me past. Its was literally a few seconds from the passive agressive apology to the abuse
Reflective practice tho. without any blame: what could I have done to avoid the situation? could I have handled it better? Perfectly valid questions.
This was just an example of middle class folk being rude and neds being polite. I have had other very rude interactions with middle class folk when I am sure I did nothing to aggravate the situation
"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."
To be honest it's not worth micro analysing these situations that much. He/you/us/them c/would have done this w/could have done that, so what, you didn't, they didn't, we're only human, find something else to fill your brain😃
Simple pleasantries are the lube that keeps society from disintegrating.
Sometimes people are just grumpy because they're tired, it's not always deliberate. Ofc sometimes they're just assholes. I'm not perfect either. Whatever. Probably best supply a bag of salt if making generalisations about people, which let's face it is tempting and sometimes a vaguely useful shortcut.
“If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole.”
Indeed. I often wonder about these folk and who every dog walk must be ruined by having to argue with every cyclist they see 🙂
this stuff does not happen to me allthe time - indeed the first unpleasant interaction for a year or two
Chavs were townies when I was at secondary school.
Not from Blackpool are you @finbar? Chavs were townies here until around the late 90's. Kappa tracksuits were the uniform of the townie, chavs arrived with Burberry.
I, of course, was always immaculately dressed and above such things 😜
Used to do a fair bit of trail riding in Guildford. That you would encounter an entitled middle class dog walker or irascible geriatric rambler who would go out of their way to get in your way was priced in to every ride.
Rarely experience such things up here in Manny..
Guildford is the most middle class place win the country is it not? Which would corroborate tj's hypothesis.
I'm always bemused by posts from people encountering frothing drivers/ramblers/dog walkers on an hourly basis. I do more miles than most of you ****s and it just doesn't mirror my experience. Had a pleasant exchange with a horse lady today when I came up behind her. Same with a woman last week when I was passing along a bridleway through rural housing that could've been viewed as sensitive; ended up having a conversation about raised beds and freehub noises.
But then, week ago today, I was riding off t'moors towards Burnley along a landrover width track, with a van behind me; 12 oblivious ramblers completely blocking the way ahead...ok, happily slow down to walking pace, say: hello, there, I'm just behind you.....four times, until they take notice then scatter in panic, one of them falling over backwards in his haste to get out of the way of the psycho cyclist who's been quite happily freewheeling on his brakes behind them for the last few minutes. How does that measure up to the chav youths screaming uninvited abuse at me during a midnight commute home from work the week before?
What's the answer? Not lazy class generalisations, that's for sure. Personally I'm waiting for a real pandemic with a serious mortality rate, hopefully it's not far off. That'll sort it.
I do more miles than most of you ****
To and from charm school?
Not from Blackpool are you @finbar? Chavs were townies here until around the late 90’s. Kappa tracksuits were the uniform of the townie, chavs arrived with Burberry.
@richardkennerley I always secretly wanted some Kappa poppers (still do 😀 ).
Rural Derbyshire here though, at my school the main tribes were townies, skaters/bmxers and farmers...
I just sing at them
Really badly.
'it's all about you, it's all about you baby'
I don't know if they understand or even care but yes, some people can be disproportionately rude to cyclists in general but its a 2 way street. They might have had a proper mouthful from a group of bikers before, so now they get in first and unleash a torrent of abuse for really no reason
happily slow down to walking pace, say: hello, there, I’m just behind you…..four times, until they take notice then scatter in panic,
I've seen that a lot and never quite understood it. They'll suddenly realise you're there and start screaming "bike! bike! BIIIIIKEE!!!" like you're an inbound surface-to-surface missile, practically hurling each other into hedgerows when you're dribbling along at "any slower and I'll fall over" pace.
Okay so TJ not saying anything justifies abuse. Kay. What if he was deaf? Or just one of those foreign ones? I mean, it's whataboutery but could you imagine the outcry?
But more importantly what's a "roadman"? Is that the trackie wearing workie with a manky hi-viz and rigger boots you would see in the Goose of an evening?
Glad to see schemie is awright, good to know. I remember the last time the phrase "scheme goblin" was used someone nearly had a fit 😂
Same on the likes of the Kelvin Walkway. Give and take by everyone.
Give abuse and take your bike? Don't stop near Lennoxtown...
I don't think thats how the post was meant - that the abuse was justified but that my silence might have triggered it. Perhaps so in hindsight but I think they were spoiling for a fight anyway. I sort of get the posters point - I am not sure I agree in this specific case but its a valid point in general
Reflection on why incidents occur is no bad thing