Neds ( chavs) and politeness

What abuse did you get and how did you react?

I don't ride places with dog walkers often. But I did on Friday and all were very polite.

Edinburgh

That's your problem right there. 😀

I had to come to a stop because they just watched me rather than either move themselves or the dog out of the way. Firstly they made this very passive aggressive "apology" but still did not move themselves out of the way. I got shouted at ( without me saying anything) "We apologised you fat speccy git, you are going to fast and bikes should not be here" ( both wrong).  As I eventually cycled off more abuse was shouted.

I said nothing to them at all.  Just cycled off. Their issue seemed to be that after their passive agressive "apology" I did not thank them.  the reason I did not thank them was they deliberately continued to block my way

Its not so much the specifics of the incident just the contrast and it got me thinking that the worst abuse I have had seems to come from posher folk.  The ned seems to be more polite.

Cyclist scum. You are a third class citizen and deserve to die.. or at least be verbally abused. If you aren't getting in the way of my car you are upsetting my dog with that annoying bell.

True cloudnine - but why the Ned is more polite?  Its happened a load of times

Youre a cyclist, everyone hates you. Particularly dog owners.

The Ned's are only appearing to be polite as theyre scoping the bike for thieving later. (Thats my sweeping statement for the day)

Dickheads come in all shapes, sizes and leisure ware.

If you look deeper, there's not just two camps, it ends up looking more like a wave interference pattern.

Go away from the middle class whingebags past your polite needs and you'll find another level of abuse. Go in the other direction past those middle class whingebags and you'll find polite folk again. Guess what happens if you keep going...

Based on my years of experience of dealing with various areas face to face when there's a power cut.

True cloudnine – but why the Ned is more polite? Its happened a load of times

Consequences. As a sensi of mine used to say, the world was a more respectful place when everyone wore a sword on their hip.

Get some face tats and look more like you might stab them or shoot their dog may help in future interactions 👍.

While not condoning the response, do you think you'd have got the same if you'd just said a cheery thanks.

Are they now on dogwalkertrackworld talking about the rude cyclist that didn't even say a word to them and just gave a pointed look?

And to the main point. Yes and no - anecdote from my kids both of whom work at the posh people's supermarket - there are nice and rude people right across the demographics but the 'Karen' meme is not entirely without foundation.

Dunno, I had a local (to my parents) yoof critique my bike choice whilst I was taking my dad's new e-bike out for a spin. Certainly not "middle class".

I was riding up the road minding my own business he was with a couple of mates walking up the pavement. As I went past he shouted "Oi you fat ****, get a proper ****ing bike you need some ****ing exercise." Much to the amusement of the friends obviously. I turned round and as I rode past shouted back "It's alright I get all the exercise I need ****ing your mum." I could hear him shouting and his mates laughing as I rode off sharpish.

The entire rest of the day we'd managed to ride past all sorts without any issue, I guess some people are just dicks.

do you think you’d have got the same if you’d just said a cheery thanks.

Possibly but maybe not -and thank them for what?  They made no effort to get out of my way and went instantly from the passive aggressive apology to abuse without letting me past.

I thank folk a lot - always make a point of it unless like this couple they actually do nothing that deserves a thanks

Honestly can't tell these days. Some folks I think have bought dogs in lock-down and are only now beginning to realise that it needs walking every day, or they're hard to train and are already fed up with them, so frustration about them spills out to other shared path users . I use the TTP alongside the Mersey and I think I've met every sort of dog walker from "barely controlled - daren't let it off the lead" to "don't care - not my problem" and the folks come from all walks of life.

The most impressive for me is a guy I meet occasionally who has 5 hunting/retrieving dogs (don't know the breed, they're tall, longs legs orange, and are both smooth and rough coats) but he's trained them all so well, it's amazing to watch. It's clearly his hobby.

do you think you’d have got the same if you’d just said a cheery thanks.

The kid who got jumped by 3 other kids in town on Friday and kicked to **** might have some perspective on this.

unless like this couple they actually do nothing that deserves a thanks

Not looking for an argument, but maybe try getting the unretaliation in first. Works wonders IMHO, being a smiley cheery chap makes it harder to give me a volley of verbals.

Yeah, regardless of the scowls I get sometimes, I make a point of being the politest I can be. Never fails to shut down arguments in an instant.

Small sample size. As others have said, IME niceness and bellendery is evenly spread/scattered across social class. If you are looking for a pattern to support a particular view either way, you can probably find one.

Drawing conclusions about people based on their "class" based on a sample of 2 interactions seems a bit naive, at best, or simply confirmation bias.

Starting a tread about it is surprising too.

What's "middle class" anyway?

I live just outside a former steel/coal town, with all the social issues that it brings.

Always surprises when a classic looking "chav" shows more kindness and respect than an apparently middle class looking person.

And the trouble in our village is usually traced to a small group of fairly affluent kids who seem to wannabe chavs

Petit bourgeois innit

Its not just a sample of two - these two interactions just brought the thought to the forefront.  Its an observation of many years cycling and seems fairly consistent

Not looking for an argument, but maybe try getting the unretaliation in first. Works wonders IMHO, being a smiley cheery chap makes it harder to give me a volley of verbals.

Yeah, regardless of the scowls I get sometimes, I make a point of being the politest I can be. Never fails to shut down arguments in an instant.

Its my usual approach as well and I agree in principle.  But with that abusive couple I was merely neutral ie remained silent.  the abuse started seconds after the "apology"

Consequences. As a sensi of mine used to say, the world was a more respectful place when everyone wore a sword on their hip.

Exactly. I always gauge how rough a pub is and the likelihood of getting stabbed by how profusely someone apologises after accidently brushing against you as they walk past.

It’s a shared use path, you have every much obligation to get out of their way as they do yours. There is no right and wrong on the ‘who has to get out the way’, but manners cost nowt agreed.

Starting a tread about it is surprising too.

I thought it a vaguely interesting topic and wondered if others found the same.  Just a lighthearted topic for discussion

The lesser known chnv - Council housed not violent. You can’t really tell them apart until they politely move out of the way of cyclists or suchlike.

It’s a shared use path, you have every much obligation to get out of their way as they do yours.

Its about 5m wide, I had slowed, pulled to the side ( opposite side to the dog) and  rung my bell and then was forced to stop as they took no action to get out of my way

I do not know what else I could have done to meet my obligations

I thought it a vaguely interesting topic and wondered if others found the same.

Yeah but it's a vague attack on middle-class values, always a risky business on STW.

TJ, do you think it's possible that you interact in a subtly different way with people from these two groups?  Not deliberately, but subconsciously based on how you perceive they they will act? Not having a go - I think this is something everyone does to some extent without realising it.

Petit bourgeois innit

Yes, it sounds that way.

Barthes would approve of your post.

We have the misfortune to have the area we live in frequented by dog walkers.

When you witness a Labrador curling a huge egg out right in front of someones front door, while the owner pretends it’s nothing to do with them, it’s always Mr and Mrs matching Berghaus gore tex jackets.

They also then have the audacity to look affronted when asked if they intend picking that up, as if you should be somehow grateful that you’ve now got a big steaming pile of (frightfully middle class) shit on the pavement outside your house

I had slowed, pulled to the side ( opposite side to the dog) and  rung my bell ........I do not know what else I could have done to meet my obligations

Not rung your bell. I know, I know, but to some that's a red rag. I have a Timbr on my gravel bike that tinkles away gently, and I know we're supposed to have one but IMHO they cause almost as much conflict as they avoid.

Yep, there have also been times when 'you're supposed to have a bell' has been the accusation, but I can counter that with 'I know but I find them very impersonal, I'd much rather just call out 'good morning' '

Its possible.  I think tho its more that I approach both groups the same IE I am also polite to the neds but in both these incidents the difference in attitude was obvious before I even said or did anything.  the posher couple were spoiling for an arguement, the ned was not

It seems to me to be about entitlement.

I have had other similar interactions over the years.  One in particular comes to mind.  I was leading a group of folk on bikes on a narrow shared use path.  We came up behind a couple of folk walking dogs on a particularly narrow section.  I waited behind them until we reached a wider bit.  They were oblivious.  I gave a small ping on my bell and as we were close to them also said " excuse us - can we squeeze past please" to which I got a torrent of abuse from two very posh women.  I stopped completely and asked themwhat else they wanted me to do explaining I had waited behind them until there was plenty of room to get past, rang my bell and also asked politely - what else did they want?  One was embarrassed but the other continued the abuse

Its not my experience with bells.  Remember I rang it from a distance away not right behind them.  Using a bell you can alert the dog walker from a long way away not when right behind them.  I am often thanked for having a bell and using it.

I always go on the charm offensive. Ding Ding followed by a cheery 'morning, dint want to make you jump' or some other benign, meaningless, unoffensive drivel that say's 'I'm not an aggressive shit'.

If they wrap themselves up in their dogs/dog leads I just stop and chuckle with them and say something like 'they're lovely aren't they?'.

It just diffuses any aggro and reinforces the point that I'm another human who happens to be on a boik. If they can then find fault with any of that eg an unwarranted 'you're going too fast' or the like, **** em.

I always go on the charm offensive. Ding Ding followed by a cheery ‘morning, dint want to make you jump’ or some other benign, meaningless, unoffensive drivel that say’s ‘I’m not an aggressive shit’.

good tactic and what I usually do.  with the aggressive couple I had no chance to do so really.  But yes - killing them with kindness is the best way.

I practice "polite cycling" and some folk I have ridden with have been really suprised at the "Ding ding, just letting you know I am here, lovely day thank you"

On the plus side, it probably secretly annoys the mardy ones cos they've nothing to moan about 😁

I really ****ing hate bells.

For some reason as soon as I hear one from behind my adrenaline spikes and I go into fight or flight mode. No idea why, I think it's the non-verbal communication and the implied entitlement that comes with it, ie, I'm coming this way and you are required to get out of my way.

It's wrong, I know, and the feelings are completely unjustified but it's the way my body reacts when I hear a bell.

I used to have a downtube shifter that made a loud click so I would normally reach down and change up and down if people were blocking the path.

Pro 2 hubs were also a good option for obvious reasons.

When I have neither I normally pull the brake levers and then release them to make a sort of double click sound.

Basically anything to avoid using a bell.

Anyway, in general, middle class folk didn't get the shit kicked out of them often enough when they were growing up and still don't get the shit kicked out of them often enough as adults.

They're still smart enough to only give abuse to those they reckon won't kick the shit out of them. Doubt your dog walkers would say anything to a group of neds on bikes.

Next time it happens just stab them.

Are they wearing headphones or ear buds? Often in a world of their own, oblivious to everything around them.
Irrelevant to the persons perceived social class, btw.

Next time it happens just stab them.

😀
I find that a simple smile helps diffuse most unwanted altercations and is much less messy.

Next time it happens just stab them.

Maybe a bit disproportionate?  🙂

the key with using a bell is to do it from a distance behind them not to make them jump.  I've never been shouted at for using a bell, i have seen loads of folk angry about cyclists not using one

I think it’s the non-verbal communication and the implied entitlement that comes with it, ie, I’m coming this way and you are required to get out of my way

That is also very true. It's quite amusing to see the lengths some peds go to to leap out of the way as soon as they hear a bell.

I try and ding a long way back and make it as soft and none demanding as can be. That followed by the sickening cheeryness usual stops all but the most determined mardy arse but sometimes, you just can't win.

Maybe a bit disproportionate?

Warn them first. Instead of ringing your bell simply shout out "gedda out of the way or I'll stab yous".

Should work.

Is the term NED not a middle class term for people beneath them on the social ladder?

Oo oo, on the tandem we have an old fashioned bulb operated air hooter. That (plus the tandem) makes most people smile and we rarely get any aggro. Annoyingly, it sounds like a strangled duck tho so we'll probably get the militant wing of the RSPB chasing us...

Is the term NED not a middle class term for people beneath them on the social ladder

Page 2, time for an STW argument. Happy Easter Monday...

Oo oo, on the tandem we have an air hooter. That (plus the tandem) makes most people smile and we rarely get any aggro.

Sounds like The Goodies tribute act, I'm not surprised you get smiles.

Sorry!

"Neds" surely you mean "schemies" ?
Arseholes are evenly distributed throughout the world and in all social classes.
"Class" is a quality that is never found in an arsehole.

There seems to be a real mix in the Surrey Hills but older women walking a dog on their own seem to be the worst. As soon as you approach, instead of calling their dog and getting hold of of it, they just start yelling at you to "mind my dog"!! Couples out together are much better but generally most dog walkers seem to just scowl a bit at us. We are the devil reincarnate though I suppose.

“Neds” surely you mean “schemies” ?

Ohhh - now thats interesting.  Whats the difference?  Schemie more pejorative?

From the south so don’t know anything about Neds, but the fact they were polite (& the fact you still have your bike!) suggests they weren’t really chavs, probably just normal children (who happen to dress a bit differently than you did when you were growing up)

Definite Ned. related to the Chav but not the same.  Its a complete subculture.  Not just a casually dressed youth.

Good to see a thread a that will have people losing their shit and smashing chocolate eggs in a rage today.

It's what he would have wanted.

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Page 2, time for an STW argument

Amazed it took til page 2 😂

Just me?

Not sure @tjagain. Have you checked the chip on your shoulder?

most dog walkers seem to just scowl a bit at us.

Some of us ride bikes and also have dogs! As I have a dog, I’ll always talk to the dog too. The owners seem to like that.

+1 for using a bell.
I sometimes add a Hornit (140 dB electronic screech).
For some walkers - with or without dog - even an airhorn wouldn't be enough.

I’ll always talk to the dog too

The likely reason why many walkers scowl at me is because I only talk to the dog.

You really need to move out of town TJ. You keep telling everyone how wonderful it is yet you seem to have a stream of confrontation as a result.

Maybe buy a dog too.

I’ll always talk to the dog too. The owners seem to like that.

Another bit of good advice. As soon as you show the owners you’re not a threat to their pooch the situation de-escalates.

Anyway, in general,

They’re still smart enough to only give abuse to those they reckon won’t kick the shit out of them

These are true words.

I always thought NED stood for non educated delinquent, so quite a value judgement being placed on them.

Mind you, growing up around Stourbridge in the late 80's, you'd often bump into a Ned in the Mitre, Swan or JBs. Identifiable by their crimped hair.

Money, clothes and accents are no indicators of a person's true "class".

I always thought NED stood for non educated delinquent,

made up after the word came into usage.  Its origins are unclear.  Its a central scotland thing

I always thought NED stood for non educated delinquent

IDNKT. Thanks, new thing learned for the day. Now time for industrial levels of chocolate consumption...

Oh, and yes. Talk to the dog(s) as well tho not in a creepy 'do you want to come and run away with Uncle Boblo?' sort of way...😁

Ned does not mean that - tho its a common mistake

Yeah, regardless of the scowls I get sometimes, I make a point of being the politest I can be. Never fails to shut down arguments in an instant.

Same here. I very overtly slow down, and am always over the top pleasant. I suspect that most cyclists on bridleways aren't (also being a walker and runner) so I try to make up for the not so good interactions peds must have regularly, to give us as cyclists some hope...

I feel the bell - while only meant to be a friendly warning that a cyclist is nearby, and in no way a 'I'm here please make space for me' - that most peds take it intrinsically as a 'please make space for me'-ding, which gets their backs up as most people hate cyclists. Hence I don't use a bell any more I just slow to walking pace (often less) and politely make myself known

I try and ding a long way back and make it as soft and none demanding as can be. That followed by the sickening cheeryness usual stops all but the most determined mardy arse but sometimes, you just can’t win.

Yep!

There is no middle class, working class or lower class.

You're either working class or you're capitalist class.

You either need to work or you don't. (Whether or not you do).

made up after the word came into usage

Really,do you have any more details or did you just I imagine that.

After they apologised I would definitely said "No worries" and more than likely there would have been no issues.

You sound a bit entitled tbh. They didn't jump out of your way quick enough, the apology wasn't enough for you so YOU gave them the passive aggressive silent treatment!

made up after the word came into usage

Really,do you have any more details or did you just I imagine that.

Yep, I'm with tj. Reckon it's a backronym.

Is the term NED not a middle class term for people beneath them on the social ladder?

Hmm. Interested in other weegies' views on this. My understanding was that it was more to do with malicious intent, or at least the aura 0f malicious intent. A ned was someone more likely to punch **** out of you, preferably in a gang.

Fast Haggis

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/history/glasgow-ned-words-mysterious-19th-24599607

CTK = perhaps.  its a path with high cycle traffic, I didn't get right behind them then ring my bell I gave them a polite ding from a long way back so they had plenty of time to react but didn't.  They made no attempt at all to let me past.  I had slowed right down.

Maybe I could have said no worries but it would have been wrong as they were not sharing at all.  its a shared path.  Its not they didn't get out of the way quick enugh - its they made no attempt at all and were taking up the entire 5m path.

reflective practice tho says you could have a point.  I clearly triggered them as they went straight to abuse and the "apology" was very passive aggressive and that was the first words uttered

Just looked at the etymology of NED and you are correct, what confused me was the 'chav' reference which is definitely pejorative.

I don't really get problems either way where I live, Smallish town in the Dales of County Durham.
My reasoning being that -

You know each other, even vaugely;
There's a chance that one of you knows who the other one is;
Could easily find out who you are.

Anonymity means people don't care what you think of them.

Yep, I’m with tj. Reckon it’s a backronym.

Maybe I could have said no worries but it would have been wrong as [s]they were not sharing at all.[/s] I'm not an Australian

FTFY

He should have said " Nae borra"

I have heard Neds self describing as such - does that make them middle claaaassss like me with my long "A" sound? 🙂

It is really a lazy pejorative stereotype but the Ned is not the same as the general joggers and hoody wearing youth.  Its a distinct subculture