[Closed] Nearly nailed a cyclist this morning.

Yeah, the A-pillar effect, it's well known. When cycling I make sure to make eye contact with the driver for this reason - if you are looking at their eyes you can see if they can see you or not. Of course, we shouldn't have to do this, and you can't blame cyclists for not doing it.

Another interesting point though - there are roundabouts near us where they've allowed vegetation (it's cotoneaster I think) to grow up around the end of the slip-road so you cannot actually see onto the roundabout until you are right at the line. At first you think 'wow that's bloody annoying and dangerous' then you realise that you've stopped, and you are having to properly look. So maybe it's not.

I sympathise though - I nearly knocked a cyclist off once - coming out of a hotel car park I was looking up and down the road and I crossed (walking pace) the crappy small un-marked footpath that was actually a shared use path and had a cyclist on it. She had to brake, and was not pleased. I didn't even look at the footpath.

I’ve done exactly the same, was very close to pulling out right in front of / in to the side of someone and for the same reason.

Luckily, like you, they came in to view just before I got on to the roundabout.

I’m very careful now at that roundabout.

At first you think ‘wow that’s bloody annoying and dangerous’ then you realise that you’ve stopped, and you are having to properly look. So maybe it’s not.

I had a (Facebook) argument with someone about this, they just couldn’t get their head around the fact that it was intentional and safer. They were convinced it was the council being slack, despite the fact they’d also put up new fencing that the vegetation was growing up.

Yeah, the A-pillar effect, it’s well known

Its the rotation of the car that's the problem not necessarily the A-pillar blindspot. Imagine my car is stationery on the sliproad but mounted on a giant turntable. If the car is rotated at the same rate as the bike is traveling then the rotating A-pillar could completely block the view of the bike. The bike only appears when it's closer (and wider than the A-pillar) or the car stops rotating as the road straightens.

The cyclist cannot see the drivers eyes at any point behind the A-pillar as the car is rotating along the curvature of the sliproad blocking eyelines.

Its the curving slip road design leading up to the roundabout thats wrong.

I think one positive thing here is that your original risk mitigation, low speed, continued observations possibly saved a nasty incident. That's not to say you cannot learn something new from it but had you been driving like a lot of the local plonkers round here you'd have been scraping the rider off your bonnet.

I'm a great believer that you need to move your head to see around A-pillars to mitigate that risk you describe (I have had a lot of thick pillared cars over the years but it took a 'yikes moment' about 15 years ago to really hammer it home and make it second nature).

No series of observations is 100% infallible though.

Came terrifyingly close to hitting a pedestrian in B&Q car park as they were behind the A pillar, only Mrs Pondo shouting saved them. Didn't see them at all, would have been 100% my fault.

Good to hear it was only nearly.

My driving instructor was very insistent about me moving my head when looking around and I thought he was just fussy but I understand it now. It took a couple of nearly accidents of my own to see how easy it is to go through the motions of safety checks without taking in what I'm actually seeing (or not seeing).

Yup, done the same at a roundabout many years ago. Luckily, my passenger saw the cyclist and had the good foresight to realise I hadn't seen them and called out...

Easily done, especially with modern car designs.

Don't beat yourself up about it, your reaction to the issue means that you're 10x safer than most of the drivers out there as you recognise the issue and will now change your behaviour to avoid it happening again.

And yes I have had a similar experience but in my old job's works vans. They were armoured with smaller side windows and a metal plate running up the inside of the A-pillar so it was nearly 10" thick, enough to lose a large van behind! Thankfully never experienced it in my car.

Similar happened on the approach to a small roundabout to me once.
Female on bike, I caught a glimpse as she came out of the blind spot just in time and I had to brake suddenly. She gave me a filthy look, which I completely deserved. Bloody cyclists .

I call this the 'closing angle' as the vehicle approaches the junction. The driver's blind spot behind the A pillar is largely a constant, both in size and angle, for a given driver and vehicle. The driver can see clearly to the front and offside except that long narrow triangle behind the A pillar. As well as the angled crossroads mentioned above, it's particularly bad at roundabouts. Road engineers build roundabout approaches to seamlessly feed traffic onto the roundabout and encourage smooth traffic integration. This generally involves the approach road being curved left on a tightening radius. As that angle tightens, the driver's offside blind spot moves forward, effectively masking traffic on the roundabout moving forward towards the driver's offside. It doesn't matter how many times the driver checks, if the blind spot moves at the same rate as the masked vehicle, it won't be seen. As pedal cycles are slower moving and smaller, they are more likely to remain in the moving blind spot for longer than a larger or faster vehicle. Thicker 'safer' A pillars on modern cars exacerbate the problem, particularly one box people carrier designs or those with wipers that park in an A pillar shroud.

Ideally, all new learners should be made aware of this phenomenon at roundabouts and T junctions and taught to develop the habit of looking out the side windows first, then to physically lean forward and look out the extremities of the windscreen. Observing in this order moves the blind spot backwards relative to the flow of traffic and allows even the smallest and slowest road user to be seen.

I wasn't taught this as a learner and only really learned about it in the emergency services. Not sure if it's taught by ADIs now but I've attended enough RTCs, where this is a contributory factor, to suggest it isn't widely understood.

Notice the car at 16 seconds. Does exactly what he's talking about when he describes reckless drivers. It's a give way but the prick doesn't even slow down and goes straight across.

This is another good article that has changed my approach to driving, and I now take more time at junctions to 'look, not glance'.

https://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

B7 Passat A pillars are thick enough to hide a car. I had to shout a stop to my brother for doing a glance, second gear pull out move. He would have been hurt as the oncoming car was close and motoring along.
Even tbe vp to car and back to vp scan wont eliminate this particular issue as the object stays hidden

I pulled out of the road I used to live on and hit a car that "wasn't there" exactly because of this. I think it was hidden in the a-pillar where it widens to mount the wing mirror.

While sympathetic, I don't think my Wife believed it was possible until she almost did the same thing when driving the same car a couple of years later.

I am a lot more cautious since then and move my head around a lot more when checking whether it's clear.

@molgrips there's a few roundabouts locally, coming off dual carriageway,vthat they've actually built sight blocking barriers, as you could easily have come onto roundabout at 40 or 50 before.

Pretty effective.

I just couldn't figure out how I'd missed him - I had looked properly

Its the effect described in the Tom Scott video and by Downshep above that is the key to this and not just the usual A-pillar blind spot.

I'm going to call it Dynamic A-pillar Blind Spot. DABS

Sorry to keep banging on about it but it's something to be aware of especially as it's cyclists that are part of the reason it occurs and the ones that bare the outcome.

I had a (Facebook) argument with someone about this, they just couldn’t get their head around the fact that it was intentional and safer.

Trouble with that argument is it assumes that all drivers adapt their driving to the conditions, they don't. So in many cases an entry to a roundabout where you don't have any visibility in advance just means more chance of an idiot pulling out into traffic.

Shakes you up, especially as a cyclist yourself.

Eldest learned to drive this year and I took him car shopping. Looked at the usual "cool" first car options like Fiestas, Corsas, Yaris etc. He went for a Fabia as it had far smaller blind spots caused by pillars.

One less reason for him to crash it and stuff his NCD, and hopefully keeps every else safer

Golf Mk4 here. Noticed the A pillar issue very soon after getting the car. Our previous vehicle(s) were very old and had spindly A pillars.

And indicators on new cars. Are they now mandated to be shit beyond any material useful function by construction and use regs?

and I now take more time at junctions to ‘look, not glance’.

+1 one of the best safety measures I learnt and try to pass on is to always take your time & stop at junctions rather than trying to keep rolling to clear them as fast as possible.

I cycle round that very roundabout periodically as my mate lives up the hill. Have nearly been nailed myself a couple of times.

Interestingly, the vegetation which obscures the view for much of the slip road also makes me as a cyclist on the roundabout a lot more cautious: I'll be looking down the slip road super early and give myself plenty of space to the left as I approach the slip road entry to the roundabout.

None of which would save me if I were hidden in an A pillar blindspot of course 🙁

Glad no-one was hurt, and I for sure will be moving my head more approaching roundabouts!

its irksome to me that this is avoidable. Car manufaturers deliberately make the A piller thick to give the illusion of strength bulking it up with plastic trim. One hire car I had you could lose a truck behind the A pillar

Volvo I think it was that created an concept car with a lattice A pillar to remove the blindspot

Sounds to me like you were driving at an appropriate speed to deal with an unforeseen eventuality. Everyone makes mistakes, you were driving sensibly enough to prevent a mishap becoming a disaster for somebody. How many drives approach junctions and don’t look enough to see a car let alone a cyclist or other vulnerable road user.

I wasn’t taught this as a learner and only really learned about it in the emergency services.

Yup - this should deffo be taught - wasn't when I learned to drive, although my mum, who didn't learn to drive until after I had, was taught this. Unsurprisingly, her driving instructor used to instruct Police drivers on their advanced driving stuff.

Trouble with that argument is it assumes that all drivers adapt their driving to the conditions, they don’t. So in many cases an entry to a roundabout where you don’t have any visibility in advance just means more chance of an idiot pulling out into traffic.

As with most things education is key. Thanks for the timely reminder @RustyNissanPrairie

Well driven - good observation and reaction to incident. We all make mistakes and you were able to stop in time which shows you were alert.
I always move my head around after a similar incident. Motorbikes disappear too which is terrifying. It is all these passive safety features and strengthening in cars that make them unsafe in many ways, although a mk4 golf probably isn’t as bad as some. Drive an eighties tin box with thin pillars and the visibility is immense. We have electronics nowadays to think and look for us. We’ve just got rid of a new Seat that kept slamming on the brakes coming off the drive as it thought it was going to hit a wall due to the crown in the road. Really slammed them on, not even progressive braking. Dangerous.

I regularly watch a YouTube guy called Ashley Neal.

Although he's a driving instructor (and ultimately his videos are aimed at people learning to drive) his advice is still very relevant to drivers with more experience.

He's covered plenty of topics when it comes to dealing with bikes.

I guess in this situation, don't be afraid to have a proper look by physically moving from your normal driving position to ensure you have a clean line of sight.

Sounds like you're a careful driver and everyone makes mistakes. Plus you're being proactive about it.

Its the curving slip road design leading up to the roundabout thats wrong.

Mm yes, I have to use a motorway junction regularly to get to trails and roads on my bike. However on this one the slip road angle is sharp enough that you really do need to look straight out of your side window, and this not only removes the A pillar from view but it also makes drivers slow down because they are looking sideways. I am pretty much always seen, despite it being a long clear sliproad where I assume cars are going to blast through.

Probably a coincidence though as it was built in the 60s before big A pillars were a thing

When I was taught civil engineering (1970s) the idea was that you could merge onto the roundabout. Advanced driving instructors explain that by observing the roundabout in good time you can pick a gap (if there is one) and match your speed to avoid stopping. The sight blocking screens are intended to force poor drivers to slow but prevent observation. If the slip road had a sharper bend, followed by a straight section before the merge, the sharp bend would force slowing without hindering observation, and the straight section would help avoid the A-pillar problem. In some cases it might be better to have the straight section first, for better advance observation, but that wouldn't work where the slip is uphill as from most motorways.

Its scary when you realise how close you were to hitting somebody!

My old man taught me to rock head/upper body forward and back at junctions/roundabouts etc to try and clear the blind spot.

Something to be aware of. Good to share stuff like this as hopefully it makes people think and take a little bit more time.

I know my wife questioned my driving at one point. I didn't pull out of a junction when "she couldn't see anything coming". I hesitated because "I couldn't see it was clear". Maybe only pedantry to some but having been on the receiving end of two direct hits and a lot of near misses riding over the years I would hate to put someone else in that position.

If you'd been doing 50 you'd have been fine

You're not being pedantry at all. I was an ADI for 8 years and would emphasise the difference between "I can't see anything" and "I can see it's clear".

You can close your eyes and confidently declare that you can't see anything.

Rob

Disappointed.

This story would have been more interesting with the Urban Dictionary definition of "nailed".

It's a long time (45yrs) since I learnt to drive so I'd imagine and hope that things have changed.

I can't remember being taught about moving your head to avoid the A-pillar blind spot (of course on 1970s cars the pillar was pretty small) but one "trick" that the instructor had me do was set the mirrors so that they weren't in the optimal position and you had to move your head to use them. Only slightly but it was enough that the test examiner would notice your head movement when you looked in one of the mirrors.

The A-pillar problem is same as the "constant bearing, reducing distance" problem in sea navigation.

Car manufaturers deliberately make the A piller thick to give the illusion of strength

Or are built like that so the roof doesn't cave in on roll over accidents. Not everything that is made is illusory and deception built by shysters that care only about profit.

Constant bearing, decreasing range (CBDR) - as it is called - is well known in nautical and aviation incidents.

You have to move your head around to make sure that there's nothing hiding in your blind spots

scotroutes
Full Member

Disappointed.

This story would have been more interesting with the Urban Dictionary definition of “nailed”.

Misleading clickbait titles!

I came here to post the article that spooky has already posted, by the raf pilot.
It’s excellent, informative, accurate, and well written.
OP, don’t get too upset, you didn’t hurt anyone, and unlike some drivers, it sounds like you actually GAS about other road users.
It’s not just cars that are affected by the increasing size of A pillars, we have recently taken delivery of some brand new plaxton panorama double deck coaches, and they have a thicker A pillar, and to make it worse, we sit slightly closer to it than we did on the older coaches (plaxton B13 panthers).
This is easily overcome with a little more head movement tbf, but every time I drive something older i definitely notice that visibility is better.

emphasise the difference between “I can’t see anything” and “I can see it’s clear”.

This needs to be repeated i think.

Have a similar roundabout near me which I've driven through many times.

On a cycle round it one day there was a guy in a car who approached, slowed almost to a stop, glanced and carried on. Even though I was pretty much right at the corner of his bonnet.

Was the best lesson in maintaining eye contact with the driver. I'd seen his head move but not actually see me, so shifted further and further across the road to get out of his way.

He was so apologetic, and clearly very shaken up. Where as I was just a bit sweary!

But made me realise that I had probably done the same thing all those times I'd driven through that roundabout, looking for, and not seeing cars, so cracking on. Completely missing the saccade:

(from the article linked by spooky)

Why we miss motorbikes and bicycles
At a traffic junction all but the worst of drivers will look in both directions to check for oncoming traffic. However, it is entirely possible for our eyes to “jump over” an oncoming bicycle or motorbike.

The smaller the vehicle, the greater the chance it will fall within a saccade.

My favourite is when the driver is actually a mind-reader and the eye contact means they instantly understand that, despite it being your right of way, that you're using your mind to tell them to go ahead and pull out in front of you.

Seriously though, it's like flashing headlights, different people interpret eye-contact in different ways. Hopefully though, if you've seen each other's eyes you're at least both going slowly.

Did it in my old Civic only it was a car that was hidden. That had huge pillars and after that I always looked around them.

As said don't beat yourself up, it was a near miss that was averted by virtue of the fact you were driving at an appropriate speed to stop. You learned from your mistake and shared your experience, hopefully there will now be more than one better driver.

I thought this was going to be a story of failed sexual conquest where by last night you swiped right on a professional cyclists.

My favourite is when the driver is actually a mind-reader and the eye contact means they instantly understand that, despite it being your right of way, that you’re using your mind to tell them to go ahead and pull out in front of you.

Yup - I had that on Sunday - full on emergency stop by me and he just yelled at me from the other side of his special protective forcefield glass. The junction was on a r/h bend and I even positioned my bike towards the middle of the road to make it clear I was in no way intending to turn left into the junction but go straight on but yet he waited, looked at me, waited a bit more for me to get closer then decided to pull out on me.

@RustyNissanPrairie - if its any consolation, thats a particularly horrible junction. I both drive it all the time and ride it, as its on the start of my regular road loop down the valley as you head up through Edenfield.

When riding it I take extra care, approach it at a crawl (not hard, its uphill) and never assume that a driver has seen me

Having driven it I know that the combination of the incline of the sliproad, the terribly positioned road furniture/signage (seriously... who designs these things?), the camber of the roundabout and the bridge mesh fencing combine to make visibility absolutely terrible. It's one of those junctions when you really should come to a dead stop at, as your visibility of approaching traffic is so poor.

Riding it in the other direction, however, is absolutely bloody brilliant. Its the polar opposite, as you're barrelling downhill, have excellent vision going into the roundabout, so it makes up the start of the hotly contested Strava segment 'The Chippy Run' (named because of the chippy on the bend at the bottom of the hill) 🙂

I know that roundabout well, and what Binners said.

It's difficult and all you can do is chalk it up to experience and know for next time. A couple of decades ago I was negotiating a double-roundabout on a motorway exit (J20 of the M6 where the Lymm truckstop is). I was late for work and wasn't taking prisoners. A truck was approaching the roundabout as I was getting to my exit, pretty much exactly what Street View shows here, I looked at the driver, the driver looked at me, we'd exchanged eye contact and both had clearly seen each other, then as I trod on the loud pedal for the exit he didn't break stride and just pulled straight out across both lanes into the inner lane of the roundabout. I went "FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU...!" and took about six months' worth of wear off my tyres leaving skid marks in at least three places.

The takeaway that day was, you can't trust people. "I'm pretty sure he's seen me" means nothing because a) there's the possibility that they haven't and b) there's the possibility that they have and simply don't give a damn.

I’m now extremely careful with our i3 in circumstances such as these. The A pillar is massive, literally big enough to lose a truck in it if it happens to be on the 3rd lane of a roundabout. I thin it’s to do with not having a b-pillar, having pillarless doors and being made of carbon fibre. The shells needs to be soo bloody huge to absorb the crash loads, it’s a real visual impairment even though, like most modern cars you seem to be a mile from the windshield.

Off topic, but why did you open a browser to go to a website for a Google Streetview rather than use the Google Maps app? Always confuses me why people do things like that.

It is like my wife who for some reason opens her browser, googles youtube videos then watches them in the browser rather than use the app.

I’m pretty sure he’s seen me” means nothing because a) there’s the possibility that they haven’t and b) there’s the possibility that they have and simply don’t give a damn.

Or they just have a brain fart and see you, but forget they have to do something about it.

danposs - I prefer to run everything in a browser because I have better control IMO - maybe Im wrong but I thats why I do it. Secure browser, no signing in, no cookies allowed

why did you open a browser to go to a website for a Google Streetview rather than use the Google Maps app?

Because I'm using a computer rather than a phone.

Or they just have a brain fart and see you, but forget they have to do something about it.

True, but, does it matter? We all make mistakes, but I'm sure "oops" will be a great comfort when they're retrieving me with a spatula.

... and if you believe you can manipulate an app to generate a link to Streetview which is postable on the forum, faster than I can do so using a keyboard and a browser, I'll take that challenge in a heartbeat (-:

I thought this post was reffering to myself , i nearly got nailed this morning on a crossing coming up to a roundabout .. all my own fault to be fair , sadly i carried on even though i usually hold my hands up and mouth an apology i knew i was stupid and in the wrong but did not want a fire breathing backlash of abuse .. live to ride another day 🙈

And indicators on new cars. Are they now mandated to be shit beyond any material useful function by construction and use regs?

What’s the problem with them? Assuming they’re used I don’t find them any worse on new cars?

What’s the problem with them? Assuming they’re used I don’t find them any worse on new cars?

They tend to be inboard of the front lights with clear lenses which makes trying to see them a pain in the arse when combined with DRLs.

Amber lenses on outboard lights were far superior. Then again, so were black ABS bumpers.

Am I the only one struggling with the term "nailed".

I was hoping for a tail of some alfresco flirting with a lycraclad superbabe interrupted by a cock blocking group of red socks.

Because I’m using a computer rather than a phone.

@Cougar, OP screenshot was a mobile.

Ah, I assumed it was a reply to me. Fair enough.

This is exactly how my Bizango got written off, luckily I was most of the way past by the time they made contact and I wasn’t injured but the back of the bike was goosed. Driver didn’t see me but his passenger did and she was screaming at him.

I wasn’t grumpy with him because my old 2 series was awful for it, when we first got it I nearly hit someone at a roundabout because I hadn’t gotten used to the blindspot and managed to lose a Vectra in there.

Cars with long sloping windscreens are the worst for it. My old 3 series was ace, windscreen was like a massive contact lens.

I've once been the cyclist getting nailed in this situation. was a complete surprise to the driver when my bum came smashing through his windscreen followed by a piked backflip onto my head behind his car. that was a rush!

the speed of the bike traveling round the roundabout matches the rotating angle of your car

I think its called "constant bearing" on boats?

on a ship, if you take a bearing of another ship, travelling across your path, and then after some time take another bearing and the bearing hasn't changed, the combination of speed and direction of both ships results in a collision course.

All well & good us knowing this, but your average Fwit in their 1T air conditioned piece of steel shite doesn’t give a hoot about cyclists enough to even give such things as this the time of the day.

We’re just a bloody inconvenience to a lot of them at best & barely worth the thought you’d give a stray dog.

Fkrs. Hate them…

(Yes some ****t nearly took me out tonight & I am not fing amused - if you hadn’t noticed…)