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Not totally "unexpected".
Aged 47.
Putin's a ****.
"Kremlin have no idea why he died at this time."
Hope all those right wing MAGA politicians realise now how Russia deals with its opposition.
Hope all those right wing MAGA politicians realise now how Russia deals with its opposition.
I'm sure that's part of the appeal.
Hope all those right wing MAGA politicians realise now how Russia deals with its opposition.Hope all those right wing MAGA politicians realise now how Russia deals with its opposition.
Problem is, that's how they'd all like to deal with their opposition so they'll just see it as him being a strong leader.
Been on a diet of polonium gruel, polonium hard biscuits and sarin laced tea for the last couple of weeks.
Thats bad, not just for Navalny and Russia but for what it signals to the rest of the world. Putin must think his stock is on the rise
No surprise but shocking nonetheless. Putin really is a weapons grade thunderc**** of the highest order.
As soon as he returned to Russia from Germany after recovery form poisoining and was escorted from the airport there was only ever going to be one outcome for him. Surprised he lasted this long to be honest.
Which is why putin didn't off him straight away.
Did Putin want him dead? Absolutely.
But did he want to be seen to be the one to kill him? Obviously not, hence the slow 'he's fallen ill' nonsense over the past year rather than just putting a bullet in his head.
The fact that Putin's been relatively careful suggests this could be a danger point for the Russian regime, if we see protests they could snowball very quickly.
Big 'if' of course,
Thats why i posted my earlier post about this being bad for Russia and the rest of the world - If Putin has judged its a good time to murder Navalny then he's obviously feeling optimistic about his status and that there will be no protest or any there is will be stifled quickly. Imagine if he had killed him during the Prigozhin days....
Same month that Russia have removed one of Putins competitors for the election with the usual lack of elegance or evidence you expect, Putin is in tight unfortunately, i doubt he cares about anything or anyone causing him any concerns on what and how he's doing things.
Depressing. Feels like he’s winning at the minute (Putin).
BBC reporting that "Putin has been informed". I wonder if that's because the relevant parties have now submitted their invoice for murderous services rendered.
RIP Navalny. Hopefully we'll see change eventually for the people of Russia.
Hopefully we’ll see change eventually for the people of Russia.
Not anytime soon, unless something happens to dear old Vlad I can see it being like the African republics where he'll just make sure he stays in power.....
I do wonder, why they try to maintain a pretence of democracy and rule of law. They, us and everyone else knows they are a murderous dictatorship who do whatever the **** they like with no comeback. Why don't they just own that and stop fannying around with court trials, sham elections and the like that have zero credibility inside or outside Russia. What's in it for them?
blokeuptheroad
Full Member
I do wonder, why they try to maintain a pretence of democracy and rule of law.
For this sort of thing:
GOP 'Mericans- "Look, Russia still having "elections", Ukraine has delayed them. Ukraine is a dictatorship, God bless Russia!"
🙃
I do wonder, why they try to maintain a pretence of democracy and rule of law. They, us and everyone else knows they are a murderous dictatorship who do whatever the **** they like with no comeback.
It gives them deniability within Russia itself.
Feels like he’s winning at the minute
What does that actually mean? I know we here in the west like to think we're better and assume everyone in Russia wants to be like us but has it occured to you that they might not? Seems to me that this is yet another case of 'the west' projecting its own ideals and culture on others, for what are probably spurious self-interested reasons.
Hopefully we’ll see change eventually for the people of Russia.
See above. Why is it important to you that change occurs in Russia? TBH The only thing I care about is that Putin leaves us alone and doesn't drop any bombs on us.
dazh
Don’t get me wrong, I get the dedication he had to the anti-Putin cause but it really wasn’t necessary to go back. Seems a bit narcissistic really, he wanted to be a martyr. 🤷♂️
Wrong. It was very important for Alexey Navalny to return to Russia. If he didn't then all opposition to the current Russian regime would have evaporated. A.N knew the risks in both returning & staying away, he really had no choice.
I know a close associate of A.N and todays news has hurt them a lot. It won't stop or deter the opposition.
Social media is very active covering the unfolding story, although pro Russian telegram sources are playing A.Ns death down. I don't think this is a victory for the current Russian regime, in fact it could turn out to be the complete opposite. Time will tell....
The presumption that Navalny was stupid to return to Russia relies on the assumption that he would have been safer if he hadn't. Hard to see how he would have been without disappearing from sight completely, and even then what would the odds have been that he would have turned up dead sooner or later?
What does that actually mean? I know we here in the west like to think we’re better and assume everyone in Russia wants to be like us but has it occured to you that they might not? Seems to me that this is yet another case of ‘the west’ projecting its own ideals and culture on others, for what are probably spurious self-interested reasons.
Sounds awfully like something a Putin-apologist would say......We in the west might not be great, but I'm pretty sure we're better than Putin's murderous regime
"Winning" meansPutin thinks he has a bit more room for manoeveure....the baltics are pretty worried they are next....and i'm pretty sure that's not their **spurious** self-interest
Which is why putin didn’t off him straight away.
Yeh, nobody suspects him at all now after waiting a while.
Strange thing to say…..
Indeed, especially this bit.....
scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000
Agreed..!!
No idea why STW added the extra text to my post (maybe it's a Russian bot infiltration eh?).
Sounds awfully like something a Putin-apologist would say…
Yawn. So accepting the fact that our model of government and the culture that drives it might not apply to Russia (or any other country for that matter) makes me an apologist for foreign regimes? You know it is possible to acknowledge the simple fact that other countries might be different to ours without being some sort of fifth columnist or traitor. In fact a little more understanding and less judgement on all sides might result in a more peaceful world.
Strange thing to say…..
Wanting to avoid war is strange???
In fact a little more understanding and less judgement on all sides might result in a more peaceful world.
poor lil putin, all he needed was a bit more understanding 😔
It sounds like you're suggesting poisoning, prisoning and eventually (as is almost a certainty) murdering a political opponent is totally reasonable?
Just to get our opinions straight here, of course...
In fact a little more understanding and less judgement on all sides might result in a more peaceful world.
Yep, better remind the Georgians that they need a bit more understanding and less judgement of Putins Russia.....
Especially the ones that were driven from their homes & whose loved ones were killed by Russian forces in 2008...
Plus the Georgians that can't return home due to the continued illegal Russian occupation of 20% of Georgian territory.....
But yes, grrrr the West.....
But did he want to be seen to be the one to kill him? Obviously not
Putin is King of Russia, he really couldn't give two shits what either the people of Russia or anyone else for for that matter think about how he rules and whom he kills. That;s what happens and what it means when people become absolute monarchs.
The poor guy leaves a wife and 2 children behind, i'd not say he was looking to get killed for narcissistic reasons, or the reasoning behind what is basically a dictatorship, led by someone who wants to be remembered like Stalin
It sounds like you’re suggesting poisoning, prisoning and eventually (as is almost a certainty) murdering a political opponent is totally reasonable?
To the Russians it might be. To us it's not. The question is not whether it's right or wrong but what business it is of ours? Or are you suggesting that countries interfering in and undermining foreign governments is perfectly acceptable? That's generally how wars get started.
And then there's the double standards of course. Putin doing this sort of stuff is terrible, but on the other hand Saudi Arabia and other states doing it is perfectly fine. The main differentiator is the money we receive in return for the arms we supply and the resources and goods we can buy from them.
By all means lets be a crusading country furthering the cause of freedom of justice around the world, but lets not complain when the countries on the receiving end bite back. We can't have it both ways.
To the Russians it might be. To us it’s not. The question is not whether it’s right or wrong but what business it is of ours? Or are you suggesting that countries interfering in and undermining foreign governments is perfectly acceptable? That’s generally how wars get started.
And then there’s the double standards of course. Putin doing this sort of stuff is terrible, but on the other hand Saudi Arabia and other states doing it is perfectly fine. The main differentiator is the money we receive in return for the arms we supply and the resources and goods we can buy from them.
By all means lets be a crusading country furthering the cause of freedom of justice around the world, but lets not complain when the countries on the receiving end bite back. We can’t have it both ways.
I've yet to meet a Russian that thinks it's OK to poison any political opponents.....
Double standards? Saudi Arabia? Maybe you/we all just need a bit more understanding & be less judgemental?
Was it the business of Chechens wanting their own homeland in 1999/2000? How did that go for the 8000/9000 Chechens killed by Russian forces? We can trace Putins blood lust back to when he first rose to prominence so I wonder just how much understanding we need to offer? Or do we just have to be much less judgemental?
How did that go for the 8000/9000 Chechens killed by Russian forces?
About the same as it did for those killed in the 1916 Easter Rising, the thousands who died in the American wars of independence, and the millions who died as a result of British Colonialism. Easy to judge I guess if you're posessed of a short memory and a misguided sense of moral superiority. This good vs evil narrative might suit the sabre rattlers but the reality is very much different.
The question is not whether it’s right or wrong but what business it is of ours?
"A quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing.” said Neville Chamberlain of Czechoslovakia 2 years before London was being bombed from the air . You, me we've no idea what may happen in the future. Regardless of how other countries act, Putin is clearly more than happy to go to war with people for whatever reason that he decides now or what he feels like that reason was a couple of months later on.
We may not want war, it may be coming whether we like it or not.
Well Daz wins the prize for today’s most obvious display of whataboutery
That’s generally how wars get started.
I thought wars got started when one state attacks another.
...and on this point...
The only thing I care about is that Putin leaves us alone and doesn’t drop any bombs on us.
I would suggest a good way to prevent that occurring at some point in the future would be to continue supporting Ukraine to the extent that Russia (Putin) fails in that particular adventure.
This attitude only really works if people like Putin inhabit the same universe
Not suggesting we shouldn't defend ourselves. We absolutely should, but there's a big difference between that and the proactive interference in a foreign state's affairs because we think our system is better and assume that the people in those foreign states want the same as us.
I thought wars got started when one state attacks another.
Explain Iraq then. And Afghanistan for that matter.
I think our system [with all its faults] is better than the Russian mafia state. Putin knows through experience that he can murder whomever, wherever with impunity. That any man has become as rich and as powerful that he commands an entire country by himself is clearly a danger to the collective "us" of the rest of the world.
Explain Iraq then. And Afghanistan for that matter.
1: Iraq invaded Kuwait in Gulf War 1. George W felt he had unfinished business. Iraq war essentially 2nd part of the Gulf War.
2: 9/11. Taliban refused to give up Bin Laden & therefore appeared to be providing a stable base for further attacks.
Neither, I grant you were directly caused by state vs state attacks , but they were pretty much the result of an act of war(/terrorism)
We absolutely should, but there’s a big difference between that and the proactive interference in a foreign state’s affairs because we think our system is better and assume that the people in those foreign states want the same as us.
I thought we were acting in support of people in a foreign state who do want the same as us.
I think our system [with all its faults] is better than the Russian mafia state.
So do I, doesn't mean we can impose it on others though without expecting some comeback. As this thread has proven once again the good vs evil interpretation of geopolitics is pretty silly. All this virtue signalling about how evil Putin is and all the childish sabre rattling is pointless. Putin is there, he's not going away, and he's not going to roll over just because some western liberals make a fuss.
I thought we were acting in support of people in a foreign state who do want the same as us.
Some of them do, some don't, and many just want to live in peace and get on with their lives without being pawns in somoeone else's geopolitical battle.
Iraq war essentially 2nd part of the Gulf War.
Nonsense. The Iraq war was a war of aggression perpetrated by western governments to secure oil supplies and benefit from the economic exploitation of a ravaged country/region. Putin's probably a bit envious and admiring of Bush and Blair's record for death and destruction.
@dazh you act like there isn't significant opposition to Putin in Russia. That there isn't significant support for democracy. That this is somehow us imposing our will on the Russian people. Like somehow we're the bad guys here?
Gimme a break.
Putin should have been in The Sopranos.
Navalny is the latest in a long line of Putin critics who met an early death
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/16/europe/putin-critics-dead-alexey-navalny-intl-cmd/index.html
So do I, doesn’t mean we can impose it on others though without expecting some comeback. As this thread has proven once again the good vs evil interpretation of geopolitics is pretty silly. All this virtue signalling about how evil Putin is and all the childish sabre rattling is pointless. Putin is there, he’s not going away, and he’s not going to roll over just because some western liberals make a fuss.
That's a very simplistic view of how the world works. Western governments' positions with regards to Putin directly affect how they are viewed elsewhere in the world, and that affects their ability to influence politics and trade in those places. And of course those positions are very much influenced by how Putin is portrayed in local media.
What does that even mean
it means Daz, that a far right dictator is stabilising his grip on a state with massive energy and resource reserves, a huge pile of nuclear weapons, a formidable navy and intelligence service and is seeking to hoover up more globally significant strategic resources in the shape of Ukraine’s steel and grain. He’s doing this by murdering people who disagree with him in his own country and ours and throwing the carcasses of his nations youth on a pyre in the Donbas. But yeah, I’m just being silly.
a formidable navy
I think that bit is perhaps questionable.
Russian Federation is currently producing more new ships than they are losing out of their shipyards. Part of an ongoing re-armament programme. Even though they cant get them into the Black Sea at the moment because the bosphorus strait restrictions.
We digress, I find some of the posts that its OK to murder your political opposition repeatedly or the populations of foreign sovereign state countries and we shouldn't impose our values to question a batshit, nuclear equipped, murdering Dictator and his bunch of mafia Oligarchs, because, because, er the British Empire really bonkers. Its just no different to Tucker Carlson. A bit sad really.
As soon as he returned to Russia from Germany after recovery form poisoining
Never understood why he voluntarily returned.
Basically signed his death certificate when he did.
Already discussed - a level of bravery you or I will never know.
Well Daz wins the prize for today’s most obvious display of whataboutery
All depends on which side of the fence you want to stand on to claim whataboutery. Plenty of other conflicts going on currently, some far far more horrific than others. But if those cannot be mentioned or talked about here then they effectively still fall into that category.
To the west Putin is the latest bad guy, but in his own country he is seen as the patriot. And we have plenty of things done by western 'patriots' that are just as bad. In most of these trying to claim whataboutery is is just a tactic to stifling any debate.
War is evil. But it can never be a case of their war is evil and ours(whatever that may be across time) is not.
Don't engage me on this. Im not responsible for the actions of a foreign country, and neither is Dazh.
But did he want to be seen to be the one to kill him? Obviously not, hence the slow ‘he’s fallen ill’ nonsense over the past year rather than just putting a bullet in his head.
It’s the established Russian principle of ‘plausible deniability’, the standard FSB playbook that Putin, as head of the KGB/FSB helped refine over the years. It’s allowing those he sees as threats a nice long leash, and seeming freedom, even in other nations then using his proxies to assassinate them, or attempt to - see the fiasco in Salisbury as an example. State developed radioactive isotopes, neurotoxins developed as weapons, murder through being pushed down stairs or out of windows…
Putin knows we know he’s responsible, but that’s part of the game he’s playing, he can just deny it, basically saying ‘prove it, I dare you’.
He’s doing this by murdering people who disagree with him in his own country
As opposed to murdering people in foreign countries. Honestly the mental gymnastics you guys exercise to maintain your simplistic good vs evil view of the world is quite incredible.
Right now not far from supposed civilised western states tens of thousands of kids and innocent people are being slaughtered and starved by a far right government which is propped up by money and weapons supplied by us and other western countries and you dare to complain and claim the moral high ground about what Putin does?
News flash. We are no different.
@dazh Tenuous usage of the words 'we' and 'you guys'...
Just who the hell do you think you are? and who are you referring to?
As far as I can read, the only person seemingly justifying political assassination, or war of shit type, is Dazh (and dyna-ti).
I can't see any apologists for western offensives, and unless you've a very short memory I'd wager that the vast weight of opinion on here when it comes to the likes of Iraq etc is very much not in favour of it. You seem to think we're all raging warmongers, while at the same time backing Putin's right to assassinate his political rivals 🤦
Once again, though, do you think Putin is justified, and morally right, to assassinate his political rivals? Seems to be the case.
RIP Navalny.
What a brave fella - he probably knew this was the end game for the last 10-15 years.
Agree with the comment above - we (and the US) need to double down on our support for Ukraine. Hopefully Trump's many court cases prevents him from becoming a Putin stooge for the next 4-5 years.
do you think Putin is justified, and morally right, to assassinate his political rivals?
Of course not. The only thing I’ve said about Navalny was that his death was completely unnecessary. 🤷♂️
The only thing I’ve said about Navalny was that his death was completely unnecessary.
Exactly! And true of all murders! The murderer didn't have to do it - that's why we have a low opinion of them.
As far as I can read, the only person seemingly justifying political assassination, or war of shit type, is Dazh (and dyna-ti).
Maybe you should go back to school mate, as nobody said that.
we (and the US) need to double down on our support for Ukraine.
Why? What purpose is the war in Ukraine serving other than the pointless waste of the lives of soldiers on both sides? It's making arms companies lots of money that for sure, and it's enabling politicians across Europe to stroke their egos and act like big men, but I see few other benefits.
Latest update regarding Navalny says that Novichok was used, so clearly a State sanctioned assassination on behalf of Putin. No ifs or buts. As regards what’s happening in Palestine, that’s State-sanctioned ethnic cleansing being carried out on the instructions of the Prime Minister.
This is in no way an anti-Semitic statement, these actions are being sanctioned by one man, in the same way that ethnic cleansing is being carried out in Ukraine, sanctioned by Putin, who’s made it abundantly clear what he thinks of Ukrainians right from the start.
You make it sound so simple daz.... you should drop the UN an email including your CV. With your abundant grasp of politics and international relations, we'd have a peaceful world sorted in no time.
Latest update regarding Navalny says that Novichok was used, so clearly a State sanctioned assassination on behalf of Putin. No ifs or buts. As regards what’s happening in Palestine, that’s State-sanctioned ethnic cleansing being carried out on the instructions of the Prime Minister.
This is in no way an anti-Semitic statement, these actions are being sanctioned by one man, in the same way that ethnic cleansing is being carried out in Ukraine, sanctioned by Putin, who’s made it abundantly clear what he thinks of Ukrainians right from the start.
Very well stated
Why? What purpose is the war in Ukraine serving other than the pointless waste of the lives of soldiers on both sides? It’s making arms companies lots of money that for sure, and it’s enabling politicians across Europe to stroke their egos and act like big men, but I see few other benefits.
Aye. Sounds great sat in your tankie armchair. Now see how that comment goes down in Romania, Poland, the Baltic states, Finland, Sweden and the other countries bordering Russia. Particularly the former eastern bloc countries which have fond memories of Russian occupation. Ask yourself why these countries are donating the highest proportion of their GDP out of any countries to Ukraine? And you criticise others for imposing their values on other countries lols
There are no benefits to the war in Ukraine, however the cost of doing nothing will be much higher. See Syria, Chechnya, Georgia, Wagner in Africa, Transinistra, Serbia, support for Iran and North Korea.
Also think about why Sweden is abandoning 200 years of neutrality to join NATO; that's because Russia, specifically Putin, has shown that he can and will invade neighbouring countries on a whim. People here (Sweden) are not keen on going into that fight alone and so NATO was an obvious choice. A shame Erdogan and Orban had to extract their pound of flesh during the process, but certainly not surprising given their personal politics.
As for Navalny, oh, he knew. As soon as he got in the plane after recovering from the first round of poisoning, he knew for certain he was going to die in prison and likely not of old age. Maybe there was a strand of narcism in there and wanting to be a matyr, but it takes more stones than I think almost everyone here has to make a decision like that, purely hoping that you can inspire a population to make a change.
What purpose is the war in Ukraine serving other than the pointless waste of the lives of soldiers on both sides?
Bless your simple naive soul, sweet summer child.
Being opposed to wars or actions doesn’t make you a Putin apologist, but failing to understand that allowing bullies to get away with it - whether it's stealing your lunch money or invading a nation and slaughtering it's people - only emboldens them to do more, until it suddenly, urgently becomes our problem after all. That applies to all countries, not just Russia, and wr need to learn from the lessons of our own dark history of empire, not use it as an excuse to not get involved.
Awful things have been done by all countries in all wars. I am horrified by the hypocrisy western governments are showing between the conflict in Ukraine and The Conflict That Must Be Named.
But our governments ignoring abuses in Russia - has led to Putin feeling confident enough to attack sovereign nations and/or ethnically cleanse them, and now kill his last main opposition leader.
failing to understand that allowing bullies to get away with it – whether it’s stealing your lunch money or invading a nation and slaughtering it’s people – only emboldens them to do more
So what do we do about it then? Because we’re sure as shit not doing another Iraq or Afghanistan in Russia.
So what do we do about it then? Because we’re sure as shit not doing another Iraq or Afghanistan in Russia.
You'd hope we'd have learnt from those lessons.
If I was clever enough to know the answers, I wouldn't waste my evenings speculating on the Interweb, but my ill-informed opinion, which is all it is would suggest:
We support Ukraine to push his forces back beyond Ukraines recognised borders. However much that costs us, it will be cheaper than having him go through Ukraine, and then Poland, then the Baltics. It may also serve as a warning to other nationalist sabre rattling regimes to stick within the rule of law.
We can support genuine democratic opposition/reform to Putin in Russia, though again, our track record at that kind of thing is pretty poor.
We can also push for greater power to the international structures that are meant to stop states invading like this - do away with UN vetos, give the UN, or whatever other body may be better, some teeth to deal with individuals who break international law.
So what do we do about it then? Because we’re sure as shit not doing another Iraq or Afghanistan in Russia.
We support Ukraine to push his forces back beyond Ukraines recognised borders. However much that costs us, it will be cheaper than having him go through Ukraine, and then Poland, then the Baltics. It may also serve as a warning to other nationalist sabre rattling regimes to stick within the rule of law.
We can support genuine democratic opposition/reform to Putin in Russia, though again, our track record at that kind of thing is pretty poor.
We can also push for greater power to the international structures that are meant to stop states invading like this – do away with UN vetos, give the UN, or whatever other body may be better, some teeth to deal with individuals who break international law.
Also, continuing to repudiate Putin’s claim to Ukrainian territory by using corrupted history regarding the Kievan Rus, and attempting to turn himself into the modern Peter The Great, instead of the inadequate little dictator he actually is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Ru s'
Because we’re sure as shit not doing another Iraq or Afghanistan in Russia.
We haven't done Africa for a long time. Largest world reserves of Cobalt.
Used in the cathodes of lithium ion batteries. Just as well we don't use that type of technology in anything.
Oh hang on... 😕