[Closed] Naughty girl at the track

Why would you think that she's done that deliberately?

Cueff just went ballistic

I don't see that as being the case at all. There's an accident and it seems like Virginie Cueff is having her own accident alongside several other women and Laurine van Riessen gets caught up in it.

Why would you think that she's done that deliberately?

Have you seen the video? Cueff leans into Riessen barging her until she reaches the very top of the track and has pushed Riessen onto the advertising hordings. What other explanation is there?

Cueff is falling off. Riessen is in the way.

You don't ride much track?

She's going very fast, she's on a fixed wheel bike which has no brakes, there's a bit of argy-bargy, jostling for position, defending your line etc, she lent too far defending her line, then she lost control, presumably when the other person relented. It's just a high speed accident, not some malicious attempt on another rider

TBH I have never ridden velodrome. Maybe I should try one day 🙂

I appreciate they are going fast on fixies etc but to me it looks suspicious because she 'falls' up the track and oh so conveniently recovers just when she runs out of track and not before or after.

So it just looks like a normal fall, nothing suspicious?

I'm just trying to imagine how 'Cueff' is pronounced

That was my joke from a week ago and no-one laughed then either.

I thought she looked like she was blowing out of her.......

Hanlon's Razor?

I don't think she was doing it on purpose

Cueff takes out Riessen deliberately. I don't do track but i'm not blind either. From the very start of the video Cueff leans into Riessen and then you can see her increase the pedalling effort to push her up the track. Only at the top does Cueff back off the pedals when she has pushed Riessen off the track.

I think it's more like Kiwi rider crashes, Cueff starts to go down but Riessen catches her and they're then leaning on each other and what you see happens as if Cueff leans away she's going to have Riessen falling on her. Having ridden some track I doubt anyone in their right mind would try to take someone out like that as the risk is huge. I think Riessen actually went on to finish and Cueff crashed right after those pictures.

I agree with the OP and I wondered why she wasn't investigated at the time.

If you watch the video from the very start you'll see that no-one crashes until the French rider appears to lose her balance and swerves to the right. She immediately makes contact with the Dutch rider and begins pushing her up the banking.

The French rider then causes the rider in Yellow/Red to crash and then the French rider continues up the track and pushes the Dutch girl onto the fence around the track where she seems to regain control of her bike and then moves back down the banking.

I've no idea why all this happened but it was definitely the French riders error/mistake that caused the whole mess.

How do you know the incident wasn't looked at? I'm sure if the commisaires thought she'd deliberately caused a crash she'd have been sanctioned either immediately after the crash or since.

And they will have had FAR more video to look at. And several angles.

Very impressive wall riding skills from Laurine van Riessen, amazing that she stayed upright!

Or horizontal even

The TV cameras didn't really get good angles of it but there are a few still photos that are perhaps the best pics of the whole games (if you ignore all the ones of divers and gymnasts pulling sex faces)

[img] [/img]

.. and a better [url=

here that doesn't hotlink[/url]

not least perhaps because they managed to capture a rare moment where there was some people had bought tickets to watch 😆

People reading too much into it. All the people who know about these things said at the time it was a racing incident and not deliberate. Might have been rash, might have been careless, but not deliberate.

Mr Cavendish is prone to similar moments in the heat of a race.

Cueff leans into Riessen barging her until she reaches the very top of the track and has pushed Riessen onto the advertising hordings.

Go ride the track yourself and try riding round the banking at slow speed while leaning to the inside rather than outside like Cueff. Take a video so we can see how you get on.

^^^^ hahaha, yes, that would be a good vid 🙂

I think there is a lack of appreciation of the speed and momentum required to ride the bankings of a velodrome. Even with sticky tubs, there is a pretty fast minimum speed below which gravity rules...

Really I am interested in insight as to how the officials deal with this stuff. Do they review automatically or does a competitor need to lodge an objection. Do they interview the people involved afterwards, what is the burden of proof, what kind of sanctions are taken, etc.

Based on my completely unqualified view of the limited evidence available to me : I still think that there was some intent from Cueff to barge Riessen off the track, as an over-reaction to earlier jostling. But this is on the balance of probabilities, and not certainly not beyond reasonable doubt.

Naughty or otherwise..

They're [b]women[/b]. Not girls.

I still think that there was some intent from Cueff

but you do accept that it's been looked at by scores of folk way more qualified than you, who were there at the time, had access to the competitors and multiple video angles in which to decide that it was nothing more than "stuff that happens during a race"

right?

Its a keirin. They are fighting for position, elbows, shoulders and a bit of leaning/nudging are pretty much expected.

A keirin where no one touched anybody would be pretty dull.

Cueff tries to edge Riessen out, touches (within the rules), Riessen moves over/out a bit faster than Cueff is expecting and she then ends up leaning the wrong way (leaning the wrong way on the banking, at speed is a surefire way to end up in casualty) luckily (?) Riessen is in the way, so she doesn't hit the deck, shes riding pretty much on the outer edge of the tyre on a curved banking (so to even go straight she'd have had to turn the bars a far way.) shes also got her weight totally off centre (i know you MTB gods could correct at a moments notice, but she's only a world class track rider).
So they end up crabbing across the track, until it flattens out and she's got a bit more grip/better balance to correct. Then she hits the deck anyway.

[i]Based on my completely unqualified view of the limited evidence available to me[/i]

...I'm on STW so I will argue that you are wrong.

You guys kill me. 😆

You need to be very careful when viewing slo-mo replays as our brains can't differentiate between slo-mo and real time. The slo-mo exaggerates our perception of intent and we then overlay that intent into our interpretation of the event. If you only watch the real time footage you won't see the intent as it's not possible to formulate the intent and the plan in the time available.

There is no benefit to her doing that at that stage of the race, she's still in a strong position to go through as one of the top 3. At best it'd have dropped her out of qualifying positions, as it was she crashed and the Dutch rider stayed upright but finished 4th. Bear in mind that there has been research that proves seeing slo-mo increases the perception of intent in a person's actions.

It looks like she drops onto the blue inner track and spins out slightly losing her balance causing her to veer across. She doesn't get stable until nearly the top of the banking and then steers out, but she can't cut hard down the track as that could cause an even bigger crash.

Naughty or otherwise..

They're women. Not girls.

but you do accept that it's been looked at by scores of folk way more qualified than you, who were there at the time, had access to the competitors and multiple video angles in which to decide that it was nothing more than "stuff that happens during a race"

right?

GM, very optimistic way of looking at it.

Cueff at the start of video is on the Cote D'Azure and leans onto Riessen to get back on the track but doesn't stop until she has pushed her to the top of track taking out taking out the Spanish rider. Another rider (white/blue/pink) takes avoiding action and takes out the New Zealand rider.

Might not have been any judgement against Cueff but it seems pretty clear what happened if you watch the video slowly from the start.

Based on my completely unqualified view of the limited evidence available to me

...I'm on STW so I will argue that you are wrong.

4 sure 🙂

and this

Go ride the track yourself and try riding round the banking at slow speed while leaning to the inside rather than outside like Cueff. Take a video so we can see how you get on.

#TVwatchingtrackracingexperts

Go ride the track yourself and try riding round the banking at slow speed while leaning to the inside rather than outside like Cueff. Take a video so we can see how you get on.

Everyone else in that video must be doing it wrong too as only Cueff is leaning the to the outside and taking out the other riders in the process.

If it wasn't investigated then that means the people involved didn't think it needed investigation and is just one of those things that happen in a track race.

If it was investigated then as no sanctions have been taken against any riders the conclusion of the investigation must have been "it's one of those things that happens in a track race"

How is this so difficult to accept?

It is that much of an obvious faux pas.

...it's a bit of a clunker - considering that this diminutive [s]term[/s] phrase is in the title to your thread, which is on a public forum used by women cyclists.

I realise you were trying to play it for the funnies. (Ho-ho.) But it's probably not all that funny.

As [i]twisty[/i] is going to be posting stuff here until the end of time, unless someone comes up with an UCI Commissaire's detailed investigation of the entire racing incident, I'm out.
And "girl"? She's 28 FFS.

[quote="craigxxl"]GM, very optimistic way of looking at it.Hardly, if the series of events was significantly different to that, she'd have been DQ'ed.

Girl / woman is a difficult one and not as straight forward as some are making out. Plenty girls in their late 30's who object to being called women as their interpretation of it is that you're being derogatory about their appearance and telling them that they look old. Now we need to work out why the words woman and man have different meanings depending on your age and gender. Good luck with that.

Everyone else in that video must be doing it wrong too as only Cueff is leaning the to the outside and taking out the other riders in the process.

Seems to be going the same speed as the other riders who aren't falling off their bikes.

[url= https://smsprio2016-a.akamaihd.net/_sport/R/i/Rio_2016_Cycling_Track_Results_Book_V1.0.pdf ]Knock yourself out[/url]#

Results book, has all the decisions, notes and times, if there was any discussion or decision or fines or penalties it'll be in here.

Everyone else in that video is riding faster. There's a certain speed on the banking that you'll just fall off, probably around the speed they are going.

I am really curious as to if any action is taken against riders when they do nasty stuff or do the officials just let them keep on racing in the other events.

Simple answer is Yes, officials can impose penalties and DQs when the rules are infringed, but have you ever come across a sport where that was not the case?

You can ride on the banking at walking pace, so that's wrong as well.

*[i]Olympic walking pace may be ok.[/i]

but you do accept that it's been looked at by scores of folk way more qualified than you, who were there at the time, had access to the competitors and multiple video angles in which to decide that it was nothing more than "stuff that happens during a race"
right?

I do not accept this; because I do not know if it has been investigated or not; or if a decisive decision has been made, or not; or if there was such a decision that the decision noted was that it was "stuff that happens during a race".

twisty, some logic if you will...

I think we can all agree the following items are fact and not opinion?

- You weren't there to witness first hand.
- You aren't experienced in riding on the track or judging/commissionairing such events.
- You weren't in possession of all the extra video.
- You weren't able to discuss with the riders/teams/other judges.

Based on all the above that already puts you at a significant disadvantage for interpreting the events. This will become relevant later...

Based on all the above that leaves 4 possible options that I can see:

1. It was not investigated because everyone (judges, teams, riders etc.) accepted it as normal/just something that happens in track racing, which voids your interpretation/concerns.

2. It was investigated by default as matter of course and determined that no ill intent was present and no sanction necessary, which voids your interpretation/concerns.

3. It was investigated at the request of *someone* and determined that no ill intent was present and no sanction necessary, which voids your interpretation/concerns.

4. It was not investigated and nobody lodged any complaint, none of the riders involved, none of their team staff or coaches, none of the other judges etc. and only you (even in the intervening week since it happened) were clever enough to spot what she was up to.

Now, I ask you, does number 4 seem likely given the points at the top of my post?

So it seems reasonable to assume one of the first 3 options is what happened?

Based on my completely unqualified view of the limited evidence available to me

Just stop right there. Even without any of the explanations offered in this thread as to what actually happened, track cycling is not so blasé and unregulated that stuff like this would pass unchallenged and uninvestigated.

Stuff happens in close quarters racing, weird stuff sometimes, that's part of what makes it fun 🙂

EDIT - I suppose there is a 5th option, that it was investigated, decided it was deliberate but that the entire judging panel is crooked and decided not to punish her, and what we've just witnessed is one of the greatest injustices of track cycling ever.

I'm still in the 1,2 or 3 camp 😉

OK, so when I've done it at Manchester, with the tyres squailing but not letting go I must have been imagining it - admittedly that was in 1994 before cycling became popular - I bet they've changed the surface for a slippery one now.

If van Riessen hadn't been in the way Cueff would have veered up the banking slightly until she'd got balance back and then straightened up and carried on. The problem was that van Riessen being there didn't allow Cueff to lean over enough to get her balance back and so as said above they ended up leaning on each other, out of control.

Racing incident.

Girl at the track is fine to me, in the same way as you might say boys at the track.

"Naughty girl.." is totally different and a bit crap IMHO as a woman*

*other women's viewpoints may differ

Not withstanding the fact that it's patently a racing incident, no worse than Cav's in the points race, it's the idea that professional riders would do that kind of thing deliberately that makes me laugh. As pointed out previously, anyone causing a crash such as this is as likely to end up a over t as anyone else (which of course the 'perpetrator' did, taking a chunk of hard, wooden track with her for comfort), which makes it tactical insanity. That being a given, why would a top athlete, whose been preparing for years for the Olympics, throw it all away. Nuts.
Also, I've ridden on the track in Manchester and notwithstanding the discussions regarding the speed at which you slide uncontrollably down the banking, I can say that the normal rules of bike handling don't apply in the same way. Very weird and not a little scary, not least when someone overtakes you above your head (happened to me a lot, maybe I should have barged one of the buggers into the hoardings..)

Just before the clips starts Cueff was on the cote d'azur going round the corner (she wasn't on it to pass riders she had been on the black line then had been squeezed there on the back straight). At the speed they are going she wont be able to get around the bend without grounding a pedal however if you join the banking at that speed you will immediately get pushed up track a little. When this happens it looks like she hooked bars so very little control over what is happening. You just try and ride it out and hope the rider you are hooked with doesnt panic and try and yank their bars and swing up (or down) to get free.

So like others have said racing incident with no-one really at fault with a great save from van Riessen.

My track experience isn't as extensive as I would like but I do have some. The dutch rider forced the french rider down from the black line to the blue. The blue part of the track would only be an angle of about 10-12 degrees while the main track would be 42 degrees, as the rider transitioned back on to the 42 degrees she would have been shot up the banking this is made worse by the fact the riders were locked leaning against each other.

There seems to be a common theme from those who think Cueff should have been penalised and that the judges didn't do their job properly (despite not having any idea what that job is)

[quote=craigxxl ]I don't do track

If you haven't ever ridden on a track then you possibly don't appreciate the way things work and that it doesn't all happen in quite the way you'd think sitting in your armchair.

The one other point regarding this incident which hasn't been mentioned is just about evident right at the start of the video (those doing forensic analysis seem to have missed this). It's a bit unfortunate that clip doesn't start a few seconds earlier. Because what starts this whole sequence was van Riessen leaning on Cueff. and no, she quite rightly wasn't penalised either.

Based on my completely unqualified view of the limited evidence available to me

And my curiosity as to what the process and rules are is just that, I am not saying that I think any officials have got anything wrong.

Go ride the track yourself and try riding round the banking at slow speed while leaning to the inside rather than outside like Cueff

I've now managed to find some extended footage and it does appear to start with Riessen leaning on Cueff, Cueff then responds by leaning into Riessen in order to stay on the banking and they continue leaning on each other all the way to the top of the banking. To my eye there is no hooking of handlebars. It appears best I keep any further opinion I have to myself lest I incite further angriness.

Anger

The video of this incident (and Cav's) were played in slow motion on the TV so many times that it's easy to forget that it was slowed down and so looks like the rider did it deliberately, when in fact it actually happened at high speed.

I am not saying that I think any officials have got anything wrong.

It appears best I keep any further opinion I have to myself lest I incite further angriness.

These two statements would appear to contradict each other. And your opening posts, title of said posts, and follow up posts all seem to imply that you do think that she has 'got away with it' so to speak. If that's not the case then some further clarity on what exactly you do think would help.

You're entitled to an opinion, as we all are, the bit you seem to be missing is the ability to weigh evidence, consider the discussion points and explanations put forward by others and the re-evaluate whether or not your opinion might be incorrect.

Which is also fine, you don't have to change your opinion for anyone if you don't want to, but at least be up front and say 'this is my opinion and nothing you can say will change it' then we'll know not to bother wasting time with the explanations 😉

These two statements would appear to contradict each other. And your opening posts, title of said posts, and follow up posts all seem to imply that you do think that she has 'got away with it' so to speak.

The statements don't really contradict as I can have an opinion on the intent that a competitor might have had in the heat of the moment whilst appreciating that there isn't evidence satisfying burden of proof for officials to issue a penalty.

you don't have to change your opinion for anyone if you don't want to, but at least be up front and say 'this is my opinion and nothing you can say will change it' then we'll know not to bother wasting time with the explanations

Twisty, far too reasonable summary, no shouting, not enough outrage, and this:

better to let the sleeping dog lie.

seriously, where's your commitment, this is STW!

3/10

I do think that photo is going to be a classic though and will be remembered long after we've forgotten who won which medals 🙂