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Love that the gammonista are so dense that they think calling someone woke is an insult 😂
I understand that it’s uninteresting to some. The solution is “don’t read it, then.”
Yes for example unlike a couple of people on this thread I dont find stately home kitchens particularly interesting but I dont see my lack of interest as being a good reason to deprive those who are interested from learning the historical facts.
I do hope they provide some examples of what they find so offensive. Ideally a nice before and after update text so we can see exactly how it is being highlighted nowadays.
Love that the gammonista are so dense that they think calling someone woke is an insult 😂
Yeah, look at you being woke, ha ha! Blissful ignorance FTW!
Like "political correctness gone mad" of a few years back, "yes but woke" yet another tool to attempt to keep disadvantaged people disadvantaged by demeaning the argument. Like "all lives matter" - no-one's saying that they don't, rather the BLM movement is trying to address inequality. These arguments are simply a fear of losing white superiority.
Which may be what's happening here, an attempt to literally whitewash history.
Yeah, look at you being woke
Remember its always Woke not merely woke. Isnt it about time it got replaced by something else though. I dont recall SJW,snowflake etc lasting so long.
Pride badges.
Think it was the rainbow lanyards (optional)
A few volunteers resigned at my workplace; one of them had previously referred to a colleague as a shirtlifter and had somehow not been sacked. No loss.
Again, please provide some evidence supporting your claims. Just for starters show us some of the recent NT materials which you find so appalling. Since we currently we have a few ex members of staff on the thread seeming a bit bemused and a bunch of punters equally so.
Yeah, I'm curious about this, having been to about 7 or 8 NT properties through the country this year, most recently last Sunday. (Tyntesfield, near Bristol.) I don't read all of the info boards, but I can't remember anything at all about the slave trade in any of those properties.
Love that the gammonista are so dense that they think calling someone woke is an insult 😂
It is rather amusing - like when I was debating with an american who called me a "liberal" as an insult - I thanked him and told him its a compliment in europe
I dont find stately home kitchens particularly interesting
You're missing out!
As long as you don't skip over paying close attention to the period wallpaper upstairs, you'll still have a good 'ole English day out though.
Different strokes, different folks. But you shouldn't have to get on the internet to find out where the money came from for the build and upkeep of the property over the years... it absolutely is a key part of its history... just as much as who lived in it, and how they lived.
Yeah, I’m curious about this, having been to about 7 or 8 NT properties through the country this year, most recently last Sunday. (Tyntesfield, near Bristol.) I don’t read all of the info boards, but I can’t remember anything at all about the slave trade in any of those properties.
I think the whole thing is a totally made up news story. On one hand the NT are not knocking down Stone Henge and dumping it in the Docks at Bristol, nor are they building massive plastic slaveships to put in gardens at 18thC stately homes. On the other hand if the NT aren't doing anything especially different it's hard to imagine any kind of reversal when nothing significant has changed in the first place.
As yet nobody has pointed to a proposed significant change either way. - I've skim read the candidates words in the literature and there's no evidence of any battle there - well not over 'this kind of thing'.
Just a clickbait non-news article AFAIC.
But you shouldn’t have to get on the internet to find out where the money came from for the build and upkeep of the property over the years…
I was just thinking about my earlier post about the lack of info at the properties I've visited this year. On Sunday we visited Tyntesfield, near Ashton Court in Bristol. It's lovely - almost stereotypically NT. A nice place to visit. I did comment to my wife on Sunday that the family had made their money in the guano trade, as noted in one of the rooms. Wiki has this to say about the Peruvian guano trade - This was mined by indentured Chinese labour on the Chincha Islands in conditions which the Peruvian government acknowledged in 1856 had degenerated "into a kind of Negro slave trade". The firm's profits from this trade were such that William Gibbs became the richest non-noble man in England. I didn't notice that level of info in the house, and it would have been extremely relevant because I spend my time wandering around these properties wondering how the hell anyone could reach that level of wealth.
I don’t read all of the info boards
One of my pet peeves is that lack of information... Would it kill to have a note under some of the more interesting paintings and furniture? They often want you to engage with the guides, and sometimes...well, lets just say they can be a bit limited in what they know.
Yeah, I’m curious about this, having been to about 7 or 8 NT properties through the country this year, most recently last Sunday. (Tyntesfield, near Bristol.) I don’t read all of the info boards, but I can’t remember anything at all about the slave trade in any of those properties.
same here, we're lifetime members so I probably go to some national trust place once a month. I'll admit that visiting houses often involves chasing our toddlers around trying to get them not to touch stuff, but I've not registered anything to do with the slave trade at any of them. If anything, they could do with a bit more of it
Would it kill to have a note under some of the more interesting paintings and furniture?
Powis Castle has a Clive of India exhibition room. Clive who?* Conversely, and maybe because it's a lot less contentious, Plas Newydd has a huge, gorgeous Rex Whistler, with loads of info about him.
*I know who he was, and what he did, but the exhibition wouldn't have helped me if I didn't know.
The solution Cakey seems to be pushing is “prevent everyone else from reading it too.” And I don’t really understand why.
I would have thought it was obvious. Its about culture control. They talk about and rail against cancel culture because its their version of culture that is now being stripped away to reveal all of the history...if the stately home wasn't built on the proceeds of the slave trade, the information could say it was built on the backs of the indigenous population as well. Perhaps, people may look at the romanticised tripe like downton abbey a bit differently.
Yes, TV shows can also feed into the myth's and the half hidden history of the culture as well.
And since we are talking about sweeping "unpleasant" parts of our history under the carpet, this country would quite possibly not have set course to potentially become an international embarrassment and international pariah if it had learned the lesson of the Suez crisis and the fallout internally and internationally from that.
But unless you actually go looking for it, it is not often mentioned as part of our history. All part of culture control.
Remember its always Woke not merely woke. Isnt it about time it got replaced by something else though. I dont recall SJW,snowflake etc lasting so long.
They come and go - see also "PC", and my favourite, "do-gooder". I love the concept that being someone who does good things is an insult.
The difference is that now that the Woke want to frame it as the fulcrum or hub of western history.
It's up to you to provide the evidence to support your claim, otherwise it can safely be dispensed with as a baseless attack.
I'd also like to know why you're so keen to police or restrict everyone else's opportunity to learn.
WTF does BLM have to do with communism?
I do suspect the cakey one is a troll = surely he cannot believe this tripe?
Has anyone had a read through the blurb about all the candidates and come up with a list of "the good uns" to save us the trouble? Ideally pro woke and pro bike.
Oh, and I like the kitchens and servant areas too. Gives a far better taste of life than the grand rooms.
I would have thought it was obvious. Its about culture control. They talk about and rail against cancel culture because its their version of culture that is now being stripped away to reveal all of the history…if the stately home wasn’t built on the proceeds of the slave trade, the information could say it was built on the backs of the indigenous population as well. Perhaps, people may look at the romanticised tripe like downton abbey a bit differently.
But what great wealth, acquired roughly before the 18th century, has its origin in means that would be deemed just and moral today?
The answer is none.
Moreover, there was slavery all throughout human history so to keep raising the salience of British involvement in slavery is to completely miss the historical context; there is nothing remarkable about the British being involved in the slave trade, what is remarkable, however, is the British stamping it out and that includes the Arab/Muslim slave trade which bought and sold more slaves, for longer, than the Atlantic slave trade.
WTF does BLM have to do with communism?
You should probably research causes before lending your support.
But it’s simultaneously completely uninteresting and the most important thing ever to Scoff…I don’t think he’s going to read anything you know…
Schrodinger's History?
But what great wealth, acquired roughly before the 18th century, has its origin in means that would be deemed just and moral today?
The answer is none.
Here's a radical idea: present the relevant information (and the source of the family's wealth is clearly relevant) and let people make their own minds up. You can ignore it and the rest of us can learn something.
what is remarkable, however, is the British stamping it out
Have you read the NT report on slavery and colonialism that kicked off this manufactured argument you've found yourself engaged with (but which you claim to find not at all interesting)? It included properties where the history of the abolitionists could usefully be told as part of their story.
Schrodinger’s History?
Infra vs meta.
I would qualify that by saying the history of slave rebellions and possibly the logistics and scale of the trade could be interesting, but the bare bones of it; that the British participated in a slave trade is nothing historically remarkable. It's normal.
What I'm criticising now is the meta of the 'slavification' of British history where slavery becomes front and centre, saturating, etc.
Utter nonsense. The National Trust, and others, are seeking to include elements of the history of their properties (and the families connected to them) that for too long were glossed over. Well, if by "front and centre" you mean "not hidden away and forgotten", then perhaps some of what you complain about is happening... why that is a problem for you is what we'd really like to know. Why hide this essential part of the history of the properties the NT look after? Why do you want that to happen?
The answer is none.
Which in itself is worth recognising and making sure people understand the downsides of the historical houses.
however, is the British stamping it out and that includes the Arab/Muslim slave trade which bought and sold more slaves, for longer, than the Atlantic slave trade.
Hence why the NT as part of its report also acknowledged those which were associated with abolition. Its like they wanted to make sure they werent giving a biased view although, sadly, for some locations any honest account is going to be pretty damning.
Could you give some examples of what you find so offensive since everyone else still seems to be drawing a blank about how the NT are pushing it.
You’re wasting your time asking the troll for examples
What I’m criticising now is the meta of the ‘slavification’ of British history where slavery becomes front and centre, saturating, etc.
But the point is that it should be front and centre, it's a huge part of the British aristocracy and where they got too.
properties where the history of the abolitionists could usefully be told as part of their story
Some suggested trips for you cakescoffer...
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/peckover-house-and-garden/features/the-peckovers-of-wisbech
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/mount-stewart/features/steeped-in-history
You’re wasting your time asking the troll for examples
I know but it is funny seeing what rubbish they come up with next to avoid its just a need to be outraged and feel victimised thats driving them and not any sensible objections.
Judging by many of the other threads that i_scoff_cake has been vocal on, I don't think it's trolling.
it’s a huge part of the British aristocracy and where they got too.
It still reaches us now Richard Drax still owns the sugar plantation in Barbados that his ancestors were paid £4,000 in the 19th C for loss of his salves, where it's estimated that 30,000 died.
that the British participated in a slave trade is nothing historically remarkable. It’s normal.
so that's Ok then...nothing to see here.
so to keep raising the salience of British involvement
You couldn't understand why someone in a historic building might want to read about its history, now you can't understand why British involvement in something might be relevant in Britain?
What I’m criticising now is the meta of the ‘slavification’ of British history where slavery becomes front and centre, saturating, etc.
Once more with feeling,
It isn't.
(though as someone else said, it arguably should be)
These arguments are simply a fear of losing white superiority.
You use cultural Marxist terms but seem surprised that BLM is communist?
You probably shouldn’t have eaten that cake Alice…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory
We can trace a lot of land ownership in the UK to the Norman conquest too. Are we going to have a 'reckoning' with that? The harrying of the North was not pleasent.
You use cultural Marxist terms but seem surprised that BLM is communist?
I wouldn't know anything about either of those things, so I have no idea what you're talking about I'm afraid.
In any case, yes, of course a random example I pulled out of my arse was absolutely the crux of that post.
By cultural Marxism I mean the strand of Marxist thought that goes from Gramsci, to Critical Theory of Frankfurt School, Marcuse, then morphs into Critical methods by way of Kimberle Crenshawm etc., and CRT to the present day.
After three seconds googling,
I said white superiority, not white supremacy. Despite using similar letters, those two notions aren't quite the same thing...
A lot of the “Stately Homes” were given to the nation/National Trust in lieu of taxes, some arrangements have the family still living there and the NT picking up some of the bill. There is no doubt that good things have been done looking after parts of the countryside but the origin of wealth for the big houses is often somewhat obscured. We were members until a couple of years ago and visited Penrhyn Castle. Money made from slavery funded quarrying in Wales that was very much akin to slavery. We left the property and then the NT. In conversations with people around the country they are terrible landlords, talking to a farmer in the Lake District a leading figure had visited had said that it would be great “without people”. They are currently selling off community assets in Derbyshire and according to rumours pressurising local tenants not to assist anyone objecting. They are supposed to hold assets “for the people” which I would presume includes informing “the people” too?
I know what you mean cakescoffer. And it’s nonsense fed to gullible people. It’s not real. It’s made up. You’ve been misled. You’ll be happier if you check out what is really happening… go and see what the NT are actually doing, and come back to us if you find something genuine to complain about, a real example, not that “cultural Marxism” nonsense. The NT are not part of that imagined conspiracy in any way.
We can trace a lot of land ownership in the UK to the Norman conquest too. Are we going to have a ‘reckoning’ with that? The harrying of the North was not pleasent.
Quite a few castles, too. I wonder if any of them make reference to the Normans?
I take your point but just because there's a conspiracy theory in that name it doesn't mean it's also not an apt rubric for a strand of thinking.
You could say the same about the associated Frankfurt School. It was also an actual school!
Culture and identity become key to neo-Marxist thought from mid 20th century on. The goal simply is communism.
an apt rubric for a strand of thinking
An example of some NT communication at any of their properties you have a problem with please, show us something real, in the real world.
After three seconds googling,
I said white superiority, not white supremacy. Despite using similar letters, those two notions aren’t quite the same thing…
Fair enough.
OK cakey - one little bit of evidence that BLM has anything to do with communism. One tiny bit of evidence? Just a tiny bit.
Moreover, there was slavery all throughout human history so to keep raising the salience of British involvement in slavery is to completely miss the historical context; there is nothing remarkable about the British being involved in the slave trade, what is remarkable, however, is the British stamping it out and that includes the Arab/Muslim slave trade which bought and sold more slaves, for longer, than the Atlantic slave trade.
The idea that Britain was at the forefront of getting rid of slavery is a strange one. Yes parliament passed the abolition of the slave trade act in 1807 which was against the Atlantic trade/shipment of slaves but didn’t abolish slavery until 1833. That was later than most other countries. I wonder why it took so long? Too many rich people still making money from it perhaps.
OK cakey – one little bit of evidence that BLM has anything to do with communism. One tiny bit of evidence? Just a tiny bit.
Why do you think they keep talking about dismantling and disrupting things like the nuclear family? Why do they believe that a cultural hegemony exists called white supremacy? These aren't intelligible concepts outside of neo-marxism. Culture supports the structures of Capitalism. Knock over the culture, knock over Capitalism. The marginalised are the new proletariat.
The idea that Britain was at the forefront of getting rid of slavery is a strange one
Which navy did then? Not just that Atlantic trade but the Arab/Muslim trade which used East African waters?
Here we go...
I take comfort in the fact that the gammon reactionary brigade like cake-arse tend to be a bit on the older side and the nicer pro equality (cough woke cough) people tend to be on the younger side. So we can reasonably expect that the overall change in society will be for the better as the gammons die off over the coming years.
In fact we could expedite their demise by simply holding up placards outside their houses depicting pictures of refugees wearing rainbow lanyards heading towards the white cliffs of dover. That should have them reaching for their angina tablets.
Why do you think they keep talking about dismantling and disrupting things like the nuclear family? Why do they believe that a cultural hegemony exists called white supremacy?
They don't.
Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, of course. You were asked for evidence, this is conjecture. Again, not quite the same thing.
It'll be a photo of a black person and a National Trust member standing next to Jimmy Savile next. Makes you think.
Which navy did then? Not just that Atlantic trade but the Arab/Muslim trade which used East African waters?
You need to ask yourself why did they clamp down on the Atlantic slave trade but not abolish slavery. They knew it was wrong so why not abolish slavery in 1807?
I find it odd that someone speaks at length in academic terms, when their entry point into a thread contained unqualified rumours, straight from the tabloids.
Guess it's all about finding any way to justify your own beliefs.
BBC PM just now… their Restore Trust guest had a real world example… some beanbags… six years ago to make it easier for people to focus on an intricate ceiling… that was the real world example that they reached for. That warranted a campaign group.
🤷🏻♂️
This thread would've fallen away in obsolescence if it wasn't for the cake-eating Gammon/Troll. As it happens there's probably a few more votes being cast at the AGM against the racist shills.
LOLZ.
The idea that Britain was at the forefront of getting rid of slavery is a strange one.
The idea that slavery has be gotten rid of is a strange on. Theres estimated to be 40 million people world-wide currently enslaved, including around 10,000 in the uk.
We use the term 'abolished' in relation to slavery as it its ended, it hasn't. Its not legal any more but it hasn't been stopped. There are more slaves alive now, almost three times more, than the total that were traded across the four centuries of the slave trade.
You might have participated in the slave trade today. I you like a lot of chocolate on your biscuits you may well be in that club.
The beanbag scandal has reverberated for years you know. Im sure heads lolled....
There are more slaves alive now, almost three times more, than the total that were traded across the four centuries of the slave trade.
That's an interesting point although I don't know exactly how modern slavery is defined.
It’s an interesting point, but unless the NT are involved, I’m not sure why that makes a case for them removing > insert example here, we still haven’t seen one < from > insert property name here, we haven’t been given one <.
The beanbag scandal has reverberated for years you know. Im sure heads lolled….
Bravo.
As it happens there’s probably a few more votes being cast at the AGM against the racist shills.
Well, quite. I've never voted in a NT election before, but I'll definitely vote in this one.
They have altered a lot of their publicity material to appear more bourgeois recently.
link
See, that's better.
If you provide sources to seemingly wild claims, we can verify them. And possibly go "gosh, you're right, I had no idea!" Otherwise, you're just typing words, you might as well claim that the head of the NT is a chameleonic alien from the planet Spork.
Let's take a look then, shall we? You said:
> Why do you think they keep talking about dismantling and disrupting things like the nuclear family?
It was mentioned on their website. It's no longer mentioned on their website. That's not "keeping talking about it," that's mentioning it once and revising your stance when you realise you made a mistake.
> Why do they believe that a cultural hegemony exists
They don't.
> called white supremacy?
Now, we actually have some substance here.
The US, or parts of the US certainly, has a huge problem with white supremacy. We don't really had a direct frame of reference here - our Neon Nazis and EDL quarterwits are left-wing extremists compared to some corners of the States.
Can't imagine why anyone might want to eradicate those sorts of groups, can you?
If you provide sources to seemingly wild claims, we can verify them.
... plus of course, it gives you an opportunity to do your own fact-checking of what you think / believe before posting.
This thread would’ve fallen away in obsolescence if it wasn’t for the cake-eating Gammon/Troll.
My money's on it being ernielynch or one of the starmer harriers in which case good work given, the result is likely to be a few more votes against this right wing actual conspiracy (of low importance in the scheme of things, this whole culture wars nonsense being stoked up to distract).
OK cakey – one little bit of evidence that BLM has anything to do with communism. One tiny bit of evidence? Just a tiny bit.
not just a load of meaningless words chucked together - just a tiny bit of evidence
Or as it appears do you not actually know what either BLM or communism is?
Setting up a second account doesn't really strike me as ernie's style.
Ernie also would find it hard to dumb down his debating style to this level
He is both knowledgeable and a expert at debating
I find a lot of this puzzling as to some of the language used. If I was a NT member, (I have to be careful how I type that) I wouldn’t vote for anyone who ignored history, surely, that’s what the “stately homes” exist for? To remind us of the depths that humanity can descend into in the pursuit of money? The bonus is we can buy overpriced food, tea towels, mugs and bird food to make us feel better!
Visit Southwell Workhouse for a proper taste of NT..
To remind us of the depths that humanity can descend into in the pursuit of money?
Does everything have to be didactic, to carry some moral lesson?
Most people just want a nice day out, not a social justice sermon.
Then don’t read the information boards and just buy the cakes on offer?
Does everything have to be didactic
You're now arguing against education.
Does everything have to be didactic? No, of course it doesn't. But, and I'm amazed I haven't already mentioned this, it isn't.
Most people just want a nice day out
So what's stopping them?
TripAdvisor: "Our otherwise pleasurable family outing to Strawman Hall was ruined when we were shocked to discover that there were all these 'words' everywhere. Our little Hemione was traumatised for life, even though she can't read yet. One star."
not a social justice sermon.
Because there are (allegedly) words on a card that we've already established they aren't reading anyway?
Have you got your browser set to write-only? We've already explained this.
So can I confirm when visiting a nation trust property (other property owners are available) that following a quick look around to oh and ah at the grandeur and landscape we're to proceed to straight to the cafe to eat our body weight in cake. At no point are we to read any interpretive panels, speak to the guides or go into the old kitchens in case something offends us.
I wonder how the I_Scoff_Cakes would view Dunrobin Castle, the Manie and the Highland clearances?
Are the clearances part of the story or a bit that can be ignored while we're having a sneak peek at how the other 0.1% live?
The only person I've ever heard use the term 'cultural Marxism' IRL was a huge Tommy Robinson fanboy. Makes you think...
I had to look that word up, nice one. Everything doesn’t have to be a moral lesson, just both sides, or in some cases, all sides of the story. If you look into Hardwick Hall for example you find that it was home to one of the richest families in Britain, the devonshires, who abandoned it to the National Trust in lieu of death duties. They could then carry on with massive profit making at Chatsworth and their other estates whilst basking in the glory of the house on the hill. If you visit Hardwick you’ll hear a lot about royal connections but not a lot about how the money was made, and continues to be made. Huge land owners with vast estates and tenants. Plans to opencast vast areas of lovely land a few years ago… the repression goes on you see just in a different way.
*didactic I was referring to, a slow writer I'm afraid!
Yaxley Lennon, to use his proper name?
Actually, let's explore this one a little more.
Most people just want a nice day out
First: "most" people? You've just made that up, you cannot possibly know what "most" people want. Some do, sure. But if I were to guess, and my guesswork is equally as valid as yours, I would expect that the majority of people who "just want a nice day out" and aren't interested in the history of the place wouldn't choose to walk around a stately home in the first place.
Second: Some (from my own anecdotal observations, actually most) people want to learn about the place they're visiting. So we can either provide information, which caters for both groups (because reading isn't mandatory), or we can remove information which changes absolutely nothing for the Nice Dayers but robs everyone else the ability to understand what they're looking at.
"You're giving us too much information!" is a frankly weird complaint.
Oh, I don't know why I'm bothering. Discussions with right-wingers only ever go one of three ways. 1) they get angry, 2) they go silent, or 3) they don't respond and change the subject. And you my friend fall very firmly into number three.