Name pronunciation

I used to get calls at work asking for, um, Barry?

Is it something like it's 'm' in the subject form and 'v' for the object? Gaelic is consistent in its spelling/pronunciation, but...

Mari is pronounced Mari
Mhari is pronounced Vari

In the original Gaelic Mhari is how you would address someone called Mari ie the same name but a different (vocative) case. English speakers have turned it into a whole new name.

See also Seamus/Hamish

The name is Mairi - pronounced with an "M".

The lyrics of Mhairis Wedding are in English so should not be used as guidance.

Anyone spelling their name Mhairi and expecting to be called Mairi has it wrong.

I know someone who named their daughter Vhairi. That's just too bloody confusing.

See also; the island of Rum, once called Rhum in an affectation of its owner. There is no aspirated R in the Gaelic language.

I was pronouncing Mhairi Black's name with a V but then I was told she actually pronounces it with an M.  According to her wiki page:

Black's forename is a Scottish Gaelic form of 'Mary'. In Gaelic, this name is Màiri [ˈmaːɾʲɪ] in the nominative case but a Mhàiri [əˈvaːɾʲɪ] in the vocative case, of which Mhairi is a borrowing (similar to the borrowing of Seumas (James) as Hamish via the Gaelic vocative a Sheumais [əˈheːmɪʃ]). However, Black says that her name is a homophone of the word marry.[57] /ˈmɑːri/ was the pronunciation chosen by Deputy Speaker Eleanor Laing on the occasion of her maiden speech.

So that should make everything clear 🙂

I think with a name like that you have to expect people to get it wrong, and then after you've corrected them (several hundred times) they ought to give the correct pronunciation.

I blame the parents.

I have known women called Mhairi spelt that way pronouncing it as Mairi.  First time I met someone who pronounced it properly I was very confused indeed.  Gaelic confuses me at the best of times tho.  MY problem not the language and at school in Glasgow in the 70s I doubt anyone could pronounce Gaelic properly given how they mangled english 🙂

But are you using the correct pronouns?

For this confused chap can anyone explain Vocative case / nominative case??

A member of my team , has a ladies Gaelic name, after many failed attempts, she is happy to be referred to as G.

Safe

I first name was constantly mispronounced by American work colleagues - and a huge number thought my Surname was my forename.

I am surprised I am not a complete heap of entitled anxiety.

I just carried on - if it bothered me, I corrected them, but sometimes I couldn't be arsed.

When my daughter was born, one of my team asked why I'd called her Eye Lid.

TJ..

Hello Mairi.

Have you seen Mhairi?

Is that Mhairis coat?

I wind my Gaelic speaking Nat mate up by reminding him that Alba rhymes with Whalloper.

TJ,

I may get this wrong - but Vocative would be when we are talking about you, and Nominative is when we are talking to you.

e.g.  "Jeremy enjoys arguing on the internet" would be vocative but "Jeremy, you seem to enjoy arguing on the internet" would be nominative.

I can't think of a time in English when pronunciation changes for that.

I know a Vhari !  To be honest - at least that one is clear!

Nominative when noun is the subject, vocative is when noun being addressed, accusative is when noun is object, genitive is for possession. English only has three cases - no vocative, Latin has at least another two: dative and ablative and used to have the locative.

EDIT:

e.g. “Jeremy enjoys arguing on the internet” would be vocativenominative but “Jeremy, you seem to enjoy arguing on the internet” would be nominativevocative.

Clear as mud ta chaps 🙂

So in gaelic pronunciation of the same name changes depending on this?   NO wonder folk get it wrong!

What about when the person says their own name in response to "who is Mhairi / Mairi?"

Just to check then, if someone is a Gaelic speaker called Mairi would you say:

'How are you, Mhairi?'

'How is Mairi?'

or do we just assume the person's name is one or the other if you're speaking English?

There's only rule when it comes to pronouncing someone's name - pronounce it how they would like you to

There’s only rule when it comes to pronouncing someone’s name – pronounce it how they would like you to

Sure.

But also don't get upset if someone who hasn't been told how to pronounce your name doesn't pronounce it the way you would like them to.

EDIT:

e.g. “Jeremy enjoys arguing on the internet” would be vocativenominative but “Jeremy, you seem to enjoy arguing on the internet” would be nominativevocative.

Mefty - thanks for fixing that there is a reason that I gave up on Latin a 34 years ago - I'm not sure I'd have got them the right way round then - although I might have got some chalk thrown at me for my incompetence!

My three daughters have all Irish Gaelic names, pretty much vowel heavy.  We live in Wales, the land of consonants, not once have their names been pronounced correctly in all my years of living here by anyone, less Irish/Scottish Gaelic speakers.

They are quite used to it and are not shy of giving the correct pronunciation when someone renders a butchered rendition of them.

OT but I used to know a lad in school called Barry John Matthews, everyone called him Basmati, I thought we were all dead original, funny and cool until tiktok made me realise it's a common nickname seemingly for those Barry Matthews out there.

Come across quite a few of these growing up, Siobhan's, Niamh's etc but the one I cannot get on with is Aoife, and I still read Niamh in my head as "neeamhuh".

I have a name which can be spelt 2 ways. I have the less obvious spelling. Working with folk across different time zones who try to pronounce it phonetically it often gets mangled - but it's definitely a me problem not them problem. Or more accurately my parents problem. Add that my surname is typically spelt differently to how I do in the country I live and being called me is a laugh a minute 🙂

I now use the options where they exist to include the pseudo-phonetic spelling - how most folk would think it was spelt if I just told them my name.

the one I cannot get on with is Aoife

I got max brownie points from a colleague for pronouncing it correctly the first time I had to.
It helped that I'd just finished a contract with an absolute dragon of a lady with the same name and spelling.

But also don’t get upset if someone who hasn’t been told how to pronounce your name doesn’t pronounce it the way you would like them to.

Well, indeed.

I used to work with a guy called Faisal, and everyone called him F-eye-zal. In the course of a conversation we were all having about this kind of thing he said that it was actually pronounced Face-al. I made sure that that's how I referred to him from that point, but the rest of the team continued to say F-eye-zal, which I thought was really out of order.

I just routinely spell my name when giving it to someone to fill in a form or whatever as despite being a relatively normal name folk just don't get the spelling right.  Once some said " I know how to spell it" and got quite shirty but given the number of times its been mangled I still do it.

Apparently it's only me that didn't know Niamh is pronounced Neeve (although she didn't tell me off)

Fuzzy - I only learned that relatively recently

Anyone spelling their name Mhairiand expecting to be calledMairihas it wrong.

Anyone with a stupid spelling cannot expect everyone else to get it right.

The GF has a beautiful Persian name, but spelt in a way that only German speakers have a chance of pronouncing it correctly. Stupidly, if her name were spelt they way you would spell it in English, just about everyone would have a good chance at pronouncing it correctly, even Germans.

Unfortunately in Germany there is no such thing as deedpoll and you're stuck with your name for life.

Met a girl named Rosa the other month. Wrote to her and she instantly phoned me up and got real shitty because apparently her name is spelt with a Z, not S. 🙄

Just to check then, if someone is a Gaelic speaker called Mairi would you say:

‘How are you, Mhairi?’

Presumably if you were speaking in Scottish Gaelic you would but if you’re addressing them in English you wouldn’t because names aren’t lenited in English.

Does Scottish Gaelic have the vocative particle too? So it would be in SG “How are you a Mhairi ? 

I have a name which can be spelt 2 ways. I have the less obvious spelling. Working with folk across different time zones who try to pronounce it phonetically it often gets mangled – but it’s definitely a me problem not them problem. Or more accurately my parents problem. Add that my surname is typically spelt differently to how I do in the country I live and being called me is a laugh a minute 🙂

Hello Mr Davies/Davis/Davees? 😀

I think I've only ever met on Mhairi and, yes, she was fussy about her name. Is name anxiety systemic among Mhairis?

Grainne.

That'll be Grawn-yeh then will it?  OK then. Gaelic names are just a trap for the unwary anglo-saxon...

” I know how to spell it”

G-e-r-r-y M-a-c-A-s-k-i-l-l.

😉

Hello Mr Davies/Davis/Davees? 😀

Close, but the Scottish equivalent.

Meanwhile.

We live in Wales, the land of consonants

Oi, there are more vowels in Welsh than English.

Anyone with a stupid spelling cannot expect everyone else to get it right.

Stupid if its a weird spelling in english for sure but rather harsh to call correct spellings in other languages stupid

Yup PP - thats how folk spell it.  My actual name is nowt like that 🙂

Stupid if its a weird spelling in english for sure but rather harsh to call correct spellings in other languages stupid

Sure, but don't get shirty when someone does pronounce it wrong.

Oh, that reminds me....

Got told off last year by a Dutch guy, Dave, that I was pronouncing his name wrong. HTF else can you pronounce Dave? Supposedly I was pronouncing the D too hard...!?!???

We have plenty of Gaelic speakers here on the islands, plus plenty of Mhairi’s, Mairi’s and even a Voirrey!

I’m the only non-Gaelic speaker with three other colleagues and forever getting pulled up on my pronunciation. We do however give up when Americans ask for some whisky brands - life’s too short to explain how to pronounce Ledaig…

You can get Gaelic Scrabble too - it has only 18 letters as Gaelic doesn’t use J, K, Q, V, W, X, Y & Z

You can get Gaelic Scrabble too – it has only 18 letters as Gaelic doesn’t use J, K, Q, V, W, X, Y & Z

Obviously the alphabet arrived long after the language was in use, so why did whoever first wrote the language down only use some of the letters? Whoever formalised the spelling of Mhairi decided that a V was useless in that language despite there seemingly being a need for it.

The same with South Sea islanders' languages. Nemani Nadolo, for instance. His surname is pronounced NaN-dolo. You have Ns in your alphabet - why not use them?

As per my username, this is (very) idle musing, not a well thought out argument. 😀

People mispronouncing names is my pet piamh

Nominative when noun is the subject, vocative is when noun being addressed, accusative is when noun is object, genitive is for possession. English only has three cases – no vocative, Latin has at least another two: dative and ablative and used to have the locative.

So, you only call her Mhairi with a 'v' to her face?

If you don’t try hard to attempt to pronounce someone’s name properly it’s likely to come across as disrespectful. Especially if you keep doing it.

It’s not that hard to Google “pronunciation of Dave” and get loads of helpful links and videos.

When I’m interviewing someone it’s a much better experience for everyone if I do a quick search to at least make an attempt at pronouncing the candidate’s name right and ask them if I got it right. Starting it by saying “good morning er….*screw face up* Herm-e-ony, oh sorry if I can’t say your name properly” makes you look unprepared and a bit ignorant.

Another way to think about it: if it was your boss or your partner you’d do what you could to get it right.

Etymology is great.

In English, especially in the past, the words Maiden and Virgin could often be interchanged. There is no obvious link between the two words. However, as many Munro baggers will know, there is a peak in Wester Ross named a'Mhaighdean. Remove most of the consonants from the Gaelic name and you're left with Maiden, that being the English translation. However, it's pronounced a va-jin, or, as Madonna would say, like a virgin 🙂

This calls for Lee Mack.

There’s only rule when it comes to pronouncing someone’s name – pronounce it how they would like you to

Sorry, not in Colin Powell's case.

Just no.

I have a now dearly departed work colleague who was troubled by having a Gaelic name that a lot of people wouldn't know how to pronounce it. It's not a partially common name so even in Scotland a lot of people would struggle. We're an industry of freelancers and a lot of work leads approaches from listing in trade publications. She found paying for listings problematic as she was worried that people would see her name, have anxiety about pronouncing it and skip past it to the next on the list. So she set up and email address / URL in include on those listing that was basically phonetic instructions on how to pronounce it.

I've also noticed a a couple of Mhairi's I know spell it at Vary on their business social media

I have a speech impediment, lisp and a stutter. It’s a lot less noticeable now so I can talk to people and they might not realise.

Part of the way I was taught to overcome my speech problems was to visualise words and break sentences down into parts. The downside to this is that I can’t pronounce a lot of words, when words are pronounced different than the English I always get it wrong. I work with a lot of Irish and have been told of on a number of occasions for what they consider as me being bloody minded English!

I knew three Irish brothers who taught English in Bangkok...

Gearoid, Donncha and Ciaran. I don't think I ever heard anyone pronounce their names correctly in 2 years of working and hanging out with them 😆

Tbh most native English speakers would have trouble with the first two.

It’s not that hard to Google “pronunciation of Dave” and get loads of helpful links and videos.

Probably worth cross referencing a few sources - there may be some bad actors out there 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5y-o4D7hcE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31jRIhtvqo

We live in Wales, the land of consonants

Try telling my mate Ieuan that.

Aoife usually pronounced a bit like eefa.

Two grate my carrot Gallagher pronounced Galagar
And the butchering of Menzies (Mingis)

And the butchering of Menzies

Because the letter yogh isn't available in the written English language.

Yoghurt?

and this is why I just greet everyone with a wave and a smile. Possibly a nod and a “how do” or “aye up” tis the safest way.

It’s not that hard to Google “pronunciation of Dave” and get loads of helpful links and videos.

Bullcrap.

Given it's a name that I'm familiar with (we all know several Daves, hence just about every Dave has to have a prefix: Fat Dave, One Arm Dave, Gay Dave (because he never smiles), Corsa Dave, etc) it never occurred to me that I've been mispronouncing it. No one ever complained before.

I tried googling it and it didn't help....

You pronounce Dave like wot Trigger does, innit bruvva.

Unless you're Dutch.

Just about every language that uses the Latin alphabet are agreed on the rough pronunciation of the letters.... Except the Gaelic, it seems.

Tbf, I thought the op was referring to a Thai name at first.

Fat Dave, One Arm Dave, Gay Dave (because he never smiles), Corsa Dave, etc)

Darren

Big Darren

Flu Strength Darren who had his elbows amputated

Just about every language that uses the Latin alphabet are agreed on the rough pronunciation of the letters…. Except the Gaelic, it seems.

Agreed with who? The  Welsh?  The Spanish?

English is riddled with discrepancies

Dalmatian (3 A’s pronounced differently)

Aggravating (3 A’s pronounced differently)

Extremely (3 E’s pronounced differently)

Parentheses (3 E’s pronounced differently)

Bioengineering (3 I’s pronounced differently)

Unyouthful (3 U’s pronounced differently)

Thoroughgoing (3 G’s pronounced differently)

I know 3 Mhairis. All pronounce it with an M.

Youngest is called Ruaridh. A lot of folk Cannae pronounce his name. An English type at work said he liked unusual names. I reminded him when I was at school there were more Ruaridhs than Jamies.

Oi, there are more vowels in Welsh than English.

No, definitely only one in Welsh and two in English

Etymology is great.

Yes, I think I know her, Molly as she's referred to here

Ough can be prnounced in loads of ways in English

a huge number thought my Surname was my forename.

I used to work with a chap by the name of Harsh Dave. That confused the crap out of everyone even before you started worrying about pronunciations. (His surname was something like 'dah-vay' I think.)

Aoife usually pronounced a bit like eefa.

A mate's daughter is named Aoife and it's exactly as you say. Her mum was Welsh. Well, still is, I would assume.

Stupid letter combos and pronunciation lead to ghoti being pronounced fish.

gh as in tough
o as in women
ti as in staTIon

Going back a few hours when I started the thread did anyone else learn the songs I mentioned ,teacher an old dear she was used a tuning fork , no idea how that worked

Almost forgot about Kookaburra

Mari's wedding? Yep. Also "Donald where's yer troosers" and "ye cannae chuck yet granny" also one about jeely pieces.

Ye cannae fling pieces oot a twenty story flat

Seven hundred hungry weans will testify tae that

If the piece is jam or jeely

If the breed is plain or pan

The odds against it reaching Earth are ninety nine tae wan

Thats the best I can do from memory 🙂  god knows how much I have mangled the scots spelling

I have an Irish surname, I have just given up speaking it when asked if I know the person is going to write it down. As for how it gets pronounced when read!

Thing is it's a ****ing simple name if you have any knowledge of geography! I think it just sums up the level of education in England.

How to spell names is one of the hardest things I have had to learn here in Ireland. I have worked with a Sadhbh, Rionach, Saoirse, Caoimhe, Deirbhile, Fionn, Oisin,Tadhg to name few (possibly spelt wrong).

I'm still laughing at the idea that English pronunciation is straightforward

https://pronunciationstudio.com/7-pronunciations-ough/

And one of these "slough"  pronounced like "ow" for a boggy hollow but "sluff" when its decaying flesh

Except the Gaelic, it seems.

I can only speak for Irish, start with the idea that h isn't a letter it is an accent/diacritic. the h simply tells you how to pronounce the preceding letter. You also have to consider which vowels are also present.

I take it you already know
of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble, but not you
On hiccough, thorough, slough, and through?
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps
To learn of less familiar traps?

Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird.
And dead; it's said like bed, not bead;
For goodness sake, don't call it deed!
Watch out for meat and great and threat,
(they rhyme with suite and straight and debt)
A moth is not a moth in mother.
Nor both in bother, broth in brother.
And here is not a match for there.
And dear and fear for bear and pear.
And then there's dose and rose and lose -
Just look them up - and goose and choose.
And cork and work and card and ward,
And font and front and word and sword.
And do and go, then thwart and cart.
Come, come, I've hardly made a start.

A dreadful language? Why, man alive,
I'd learned to talk it when I was five,
And yet to write it, the more I tried,
I hadn't learned it at sixty-five!

See also 'The Chaos'

https://chateauview.com/pronunciation/

Aggravating (3 A’s pronounced differently)

Huh? What exactly are you doing with this?

Aggravating (3 A’s pronounced differently)

Huh? What exactly are you doing with this?

A1 = hard a as in apple
A2 = more like "uh"
A3 = long as in "eight" 😉

Same 3 a's as in "I ate an apple"

My three daughters have all Irish Gaelic names, pretty much vowel heavy.  We live in Wales, the land of consonants, not once have their names been pronounced correctly

That's one reason why we didn't give our daughter an Irish name, even though we liked the sound of the name. Another reaosn was that as we have no Irish heritage it seemed a bit daft. MrsJ is Greek but we ruled out a Greek name for similar reasons. Ended up calling her an English name, and found out when she started school that it was one of the commonest names that year!

My sister gave her dutch kids English names.  One of them is rarely pronounced properly in dutch - Nathan.  I don't know if the TH sound does not exist in dutch but he gets Natan usually

I can only speak for Irish, start with the idea that h isn’t a letter it is an accent/diacritic. the h simply tells you how to pronounce the preceding letter. You also have to consider which vowels are also present.

Now that bespoke typewriters are no longer an expense and unicode is a thing I'm of the modest opinion that we should now return to the ponc séimhithe and get rid of the confusing rash of h.

I just routinely spell my name [presumably Jeremy] when giving it to someone to fill in a form or whatever as despite being a relatively normal name folk just don’t get the spelling right.

I often get "is that with a J or a G?" despite having NEVER encountered someone called Geremy.

(In an earlier life I worked in Texas for Elf Aquitaine Petroleum. Imagine how much fun that was to explain to locals. I'm particularly amused by the letter I once received addressed to Al's Equity.)