[Closed] My my democracy isn't now fair shocker for the losing side

Baron is the new Chew

"tyranny of the majority"

I now know I've gone [i]too[/i] far. Apologies.

It seems that the UK's credit rating has just been down-graded.

Which, because of the size of the national debt, means a rise in interest payments that'll wipe out any savings from not contributing to the EU.

That £350M per week for the NHS? Gone.

That £350M per week for the NHS? Gone.

oldtalent - Member
Wahhh its so unfair that other dont share my minority views.
Looking forward to the usual gobby rentamob commies getting a truncheoning in London late

Will the truncheoners be collectively wearing shirts of any particular shade of ummm, ooh let's say -"tan"?

still, mustn't grumble, eh...

I've never felt so much like grumbling in my life.

I've had my pre grumble here:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Bullying, lies and elitism is not the preserve of the liberal left. Take a look at last nights Newsnight and watch the Dan Hannan lie about immigration and Suzanne Evans lie about the NHS funding. Then fast forward to the last segment and watch the double whammy of David Starkey demonstrating sneering elitism and bullying all in one go.

Or you could rely on the Sun, Mail, Express, bloke down the pub or your racist cousin on Facebook to be politically informed, which is how the majority of the population function.

I can't wait for the Leavers to start complaining about how unfair it is when their employer, hit by rising costs of goods and unable to raise prices because people have less money after paying their mortgage, starts to put the squeeze on employees.

Who do you think will take the hit? If the owner has scruples then he/she will take a hit themselves, perhaps reducing their income from £100k a year to £75k. But there is nowhere near enough savings there, so they start to make redundancies. Even if you are lucky enough to escape the cull, you suddenly find yourself with twice as much work to do and no rise in pay.

The owner survives, they have taken a hit, but they are still comfortably off. Meanwhile the workforce either go crazy through over-work or are laid off.

Obviously just a hypothetical example......

Obviously just a hypothetical example......

Mebbe's try telling that to some former Cadbury employees? Ask how being in the EU protected their jobs?

Incidentally, how many loaves of bread does ten units of blind optimism and wishful thinking buy these days?

Does anyone out there understand how the world works?

five, and two fishes

what does a group hug get us?

I reckon it's not as much as a high 5 and a YeHa

A lot of those that voted Remain appear to be a bunch of nasty spoilt bitter types.

The name calling all appeared to come from the Remain side. Calling those who had a different opinion as thick, racist and xenophobic, and worse of all now - they appear to trying to divide young generation against older generation.
My FB news feed is full of bitter whinging by those that voted for Remain.

The name calling all appeared to come from the Remain side. Calling those who had a different opinion as thick, racist and xenophobic,

Anyway wait until the wheels really come off, can you hang on for 2-3 years of uncertainty?

Mooman - careful, they're also the only intelligent ones 🙂

What if "bitter whinging" is actually just the immediate knee-jerk expression of the fear, disappointment and uncertainty some of those who voted for Remain are feeling?

Had the result gone the other way, I suspect the reaction from the 'losing' side would have been pretty much the same.

[quote=mooman ]The name calling all appeared to come from the Remain side.

I've personally pulled people up for it several times. I'm not sure what pointing it out as a a general issue adds to the debate though - are you somehow tarring us all with that brush?

Whilst you didn't call anyone or all the Leave voters thick racists you are implying it. The fact you don't see that as cause for embarrassment is err embarrassing

No, this is embarrassing. Here are thick racists. I have many, many more videos I can share

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153842562976939&id=6622931938

I don't want to be associated with these people. I don't want people from overseas to look at that and think they represent me. Ironically I'm intolerant of intolerant people

If this had been a ballot for strike action then any strike taking place off the back of this result would be illegal.

dannyh - Member
I can't wait for the Leavers to start complaining about how unfair it is when their employer, hit by rising costs of goods and unable to raise prices because people have less money after paying their mortgage, starts to put the squeeze on employees.

Who do you think will take the hit? If the owner has scruples then he/she will take a hit themselves, perhaps reducing their income from £100k a year to £75k. But there is nowhere near enough savings there, so they start to make redundancies. Even if you are lucky enough to escape the cull, you suddenly find yourself with twice as much work to do and no rise in pay.

The owner survives, they have taken a hit, but they are still comfortably off. Meanwhile the workforce either go crazy through over-work or are laid off.

Obviously just a hypothetical example......

POSTED 29 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Want a less hypothetical example..?
Mrs H1ghland3r works for an international consultancy firm, despite them having a round of redundancies over the last 6 months she had been working her ass off to ensure that none of the 100 or so in her team were effected by having enough work for them. As a direct result of the vote, her company lost one contract worth over £50 million and were informed that another worth over £25 million is at 'grave' risk. As a direct result of this, despite her doing everything she can to save them, she is going to be forced to start informing people next week that their jobs are being considered for redundancy...
These contracts were with countries that operate across the EU and they are unwilling to enter into a contract that will extend beyond the '2 year exit period' because of the nightmare of paperwork and costs might ensue from dealing with a company that is outside of Europe...
That's a concrete example of what's happening less than 24 hours after the vote.. It takes an insane optimist to think it's going to get better rather than worse... 🙁

Why don't we all try to make the very best of what the country has voted for? There isn't a call for a re-vote straight after every general election.

aracer - Member

mooman » The name calling all appeared to come from the Remain side.

I've personally pulled people up for it several times. I'm not sure what pointing it out as a a general issue adds to the debate though - are you somehow tarring us all with that brush?

Well done you and I'm not tarring all Remain voters. I think it's reasonable to challenge shameful comments in any discussion where one side dissuades the other from engaging because they're incapable of mature polite debate.

BoardinBob - Member
No, this is embarrassing. Here are thick racists. I have many, many more videos I can share

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153842562976939&id=6622931938

I don't want to be associated with these people. I don't people from overseas to look at that and think they represent me. Ironically I'm intolerant of intolerant people

You can be anti immigration without being racist. You can discriminate without being racist. Something non Facebook to read [url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/10/reasonable-fear-colossal-migration-crisis-justin-welby-archbishop-canterbury ]Archbishop disagrees with Boardinbob? [/url].

All in the spirit of interesting debate.

But we'd get revote in 4 years and if enough people think it's not working out how they expected they can vote someone else in.

If this doesn't work out as VL have said it will and if the 'scaremongering' Remain are proved right we're ****ed.

There's no going back-this is it. Unless we have an immediate revote.

Nonsense, there was a vote in 1975 to enter the EU (or EEC as it was known then).... I'm sure they'll be a vote to re-enter at some point in the future perhaps under a Labour government.....personally I'd sooner see the whole thing dissolve and go back to nation's states just trading with each other under favourable conditions....the rest of the beaurocratic nonsense can get lost, we don't need a European parliament for example!

That £350M per week for the NHS? Gone.

yeah thinking about it though if a country is in such a tenuous balance over 350mil in the grande scheme of things

we were pretty ****ed before, now we are slightly more ****ed it gone either way at any point with or without [s]misled morons[/s] taking to the poles and wundering wtf have I done after...id have said its like barebacking a hooker, could i get the cat aids or not get the cat aids

It seems that the UK's credit rating has just been down-graded. The wheels are beginning to come off the train. Public abuse of non-white people in England by racist thugs has begun. My worry is that it will soon get bad enough for the formerly reasonable and polite 48.1% to move from anxiety to hate and start referring to the Leave voters as "Those **** arseholes".

Yup, that's already what I'm doing.

Makes logical sense, if you voted 'out' you are an areshole.

Just took a quick trawl through the EU referendum thread prior to Friday and I couldn't find anyone complaning about the fairness of the proposed referendum or problems with the democratic process or the fact that old,uneducated non Guardian readers would have the opportuniy to vote.

And all of this will help in what way?

The closeness of the result should render it null and void, with it acting as an advisory, rather than a mandate.

Would you be saying the same if the result had gone 52/48 to remain?

Would you be saying the same if the result had gone 52/48 to remain?

do you really need an answer to that or were you being rhetorical.

Would you be saying the same if the result had gone 52/48 to remain?

Yes I would. Too close to make such an important decision, either way.

It's a win-win for me. Either we get this Spitfires roaring overhead economic success story, or I am proved right in about 2-3 years when we haven't got a pot to piss in.

Of course, being proved right will mean higher than necessary unemployment, erosion of the rights of ordinary people and a far worse-off and more divided country. But every cloud and all that.

As I have said elsewhere, I'm leaving the name-calling behind. That is too easy on the people who have put us in this mess. So, you brave political warriors, let's hear The Plan.

I'm here, ready and willing to work hard and contribute as I always have.

I wonder how much of this lashing out by the Leavers is borne out of an impending sense of being held to account.

Gary_C - Member
The closeness of the result should render it null and void, with it acting as an advisory, rather than a mandate.
Would you be saying the same if the result had gone 52/48 to remain?

POSTED 11 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Now that's an interesting point.. Given that the vote essentially boiled won to 'carry on as we are' or 'make a fundamental change to the way the country functions and co-exists with its neighbors'.. I don't actually think it would have been unreasonable to required the burden of an exceptional majority on the the brexit vote, say 60% with say a proviso that any vote over 50% initiates an automatic repeat vote within a set period, say 2-5 years.

Having said all that, that's not how it was done, The Remain campaign had the opportunity to put such a thing forward and didn't so it's not really on to whinge about it now. I think the fundamental problem and the feelings of betrayal and dissillusionment stem from the fact that no-one, on either side thought that Brexit would actually win.. Talk about underestimating the electorate... 🙄

[img] [/img]

Further, to remain as we are would allow for a future referendum to leave so it should not be the end game for the VL camp.

This is the end game for remain on a very narrow majority.

We are all being stripped of our European citizenship, some of us are having to give up their political ideals.

If labour win or the Tories win an election you do not suddenly stop becoming a supporter of your favored pay unless you choose to.

In this case I am having my citizenship removed very much against my will and can no longer really be involved in European politics so yes the bar should be high.

Not whinging just doing what I can to prevent the leavers trashing the country I love.

Which isn't much, but there's still a chance to save the country prior to Article 50, and even after the chance isn't zero.

Calling on the local pro-leave MP to resign (his constituents voted to stay).
Signed the petition- over 1.6 million signatures now (to put it in perspective leave got 1.25 million more votes than remain.
Hoping that the deal we get involved free trade and free movement of people (which is likely if we get anything, but we may not) - I can live without farm subsidies.
Watching Sturgeon trying to look after her people - agree or disagree with how she's doing it, at least she's doing what she's paid to do.
Considering emigration options for if it really goes badly.

It seems once you have had a referendum you can just carry on and have as many as needed till you get what you want, or is this just in Scotland. I wonder if they did cut scotland loose how long it would take for them to tank, now the oils gone how much export demand is there for shortbread and meerkats in tartan

I mean even the Welsh have better trail centres, which is the important thing

RichinBish - You said (on p1)

What I'd like to know is why the lefty liberal elite hate our country so much

What makes you think that? Do answer, please...
I love it so much that I think other people ought to benefit from it.

Saturday, 25 June 2016
Soon be Monday
Say what you like about David Cameron – and I am as guilty as anybody of slagging the man off in recent weeks – but his measured, if delayed, reaction to the glorious news was exactly right. He blamed nobody, threatened nothing and sucked it up to say it was time now to regroup, rebuild and get back to business. He was also honest enough to understand the mood in much of the country and step down gracefully. The time for fighting is over.

What a shame millions of others could only wallow in their cosseted, wished-for misery. The level of whining butt-hurt out there yesterday was off the scale. And as it was already at a cosmic level beforehand, that was ****wittery from an alternative universe. Having ramped up the fear and hatred over the last few months how dare the sky not fall in? It was as if they were demanding their homes be invaded by jack-booted Stormtroopers to evict their freezing cold babies into the streets and disappointed that no immigrants had been herded into cattle trucks to be deported... via the ‘showers’.

The BBC did its best to help. In every news bulletin it was reported that the economy had tanked, that it had ‘plunged’ over a cliff and the pound was now worth less than a Weimar Republic mark in 1924. Such cataclysmic reporting had its own momentum, like a supertanker trying to change course; when both Sterling and the FTSE bounced back to show relatively modest changes on the day this went almost entirely unreported, so generation snowflake continued to rend garments, gnash teeth and look for somebody to blame.

In the Labour Party the fault was that of Jeremy Corbyn and his fellows lined up to stab him in the front for somehow telepathically causing former Labour core voters to embrace the hate and become racist Faragistas. Nicola Sturgeon lost no time in pointing out that, just as in sports, Scotland hated England so much they would support foreign rule from any other source. And across the world, from luvvies in Los Angeles to irrelevant, forgotten tax exiles in tropical climes berated the people who live in cold, wet Britain for exercising their democratic right.

But most of all it was ‘the old people’ who took the flak. The old people whipped the rug out from under the country’s youth and condemned generations to penury. It was the old people, who fought wars and rebuilt the country and lobbied for workers’ rights that, having taken advantage of all they had gained, now wanted to pull up the rope ladder after them. It was the vicious, nasty, bitter and twisted old people that want to turn Britain into Nazi Germany. No, really. What makes it all the more delicious is that fully 75% of the 18-25 year olds who are whining about the old people denying them their promised future didn’t even bother to turn out and vote... and of those who did vote, a third of them voted for Brexit.

It's just not fair! Old people are to blame!
Man up, snowflake!

But the weekend will come and go. The celebration barbecues will be had, or the wakes will be held and there will be some thick heads in the morning. Then, on Monday it will be business as usual, except for one thing. The future is now entirely in your hands. Embrace what is and stop mourning for the illusion that was. And while the rest of Europe is having its own long dark nights of the soul and the inevitable decline of the EU hastens, be glad that we are on the outside, roll up those sleeves and start digging for victory.
Batsby at 05:26

Copied and pasted but summed up eloquently

Now that's an interesting point.. Given that the vote essentially boiled won to 'carry on as we are' or 'make a fundamental change to the way the country functions and co-exists with its neighbors'.. I don't actually think it would have been unreasonable to required the burden of an exceptional majority on the the brexit vote, say 60% with say a proviso that any vote over 50% initiates an automatic repeat vote within a set period, say 2-5 years.

My thoughts exactly. Just as throughout the campaigning, the burden of proof should have been on the Brexit side to put forward a demonstrable strategic plan of exit. We all know what it's like to be part of the EU, whereas no one knows what it will be like outside. Obviously, Brexit failed to do this spectacularly.

Edit:

The future is now entirely in your hands.

No it's not.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/24/bank-of-england-markets-pound-shares-plummet-brexit-vote-carney ]Moody's lowers economic outlook[/url]

And it starts.

The Plan, please guys.

More than two thirds of Remainers have degrees and two thirds of Leavers left school at 16. Certainly all the 'man or woman in the street' interviews I've seen are evidence of Leavers being ignorant, xenophobic, mouth-breathing morons who have been manipulated by ideologues smarter than them. Mostly they seem to be people angry at being left behind by the 21st century and are blaming immigrants and the EU for their plight, rather than themselves and our own governments.
Many jobs will go. We will all be much poorer. Our children will have far fewer opportunities. Our public services will suffer. On the bright side, we can have bendy bananas again. Well done Britain.

I fear this topic will never go away, and not in an Internet 'never' aka a few weeks, but a real world 10-20 years.

The country is dam near split in two - 70% turnout is huge and 52 v 48 is bloody close - Boris actually impressed me, talk of needing to unite the country with a deal both sides can live with etc - of course Farage who never seems to be far from a mic and has managed to convince everyone was part of the leave campaign (seriously the lie-bus was nothing to do with him) will never be happy with any deal. He seems to think we can tear the lot up and it's spitfires over Dover and we're all millionaires with a 10m wall around fortress Britain and its that **** who's got the Tories down this road.

The sensible thing to do wil be work this out with the EU, accept that whilst they're morons the anti-immigration lot should be represented and carry on before we're all living in mud huts. Given the close result, the outpouring of brexit voters who quickly realised their mistake and the fall out since the result I think the best thing to do would be a revised deal and a second vote - but the hardcore won't like it, they care to much about 'winning' to realise that when we lose, we all lose and when we win, we all win - there aren't winners and losers in this its all or nothing.

Boris actually impressed me, talk of needing to unite the country with a deal both sides can live with

What on Earth did you expect him to say? A 6 year-old could have written that.

Richinbish - I admire your optimism. No one whose opinion I value shares it. Starting with Moody's above.

Edit: to be fair though ratings agencies have been wrong before

I think there are a lot of poorly educated/easily led people expecting van loads of brownshirts driving around housing estates, rounding up people with funny accents and/or different coloured skin and sending the buggers back to where they come from, innit, for the jobs and that*. I also think those same poorly educated/easily led people will still be angry in a few years' time, probably having been fed a different set of excuses for why they're still poor and downtrodden and why they can't get decent treatment on the NHS any more, because the promises that were made by the 'Leave' campaign were all horseshit.

* seriously, I spoke to a woman about it on Friday and she was happy because now "there'd be more jobs because we wouldn't have to send all the jobs abroad". Seriously. For ****'s sake. A lad said he'd voted to "send them all back"...

Boris actually impressed me, talk of needing to unite the country with a deal both sides can live with

Hoping that the deal we get involves free trade and free movement of people (which is likely if we get anything at all, but we may not) - I can live without farm subsidies.

I wonder if they did cut scotland loose how long it would take for them to tank, now the oils gone how much export demand is there for shortbread and meerkats in tartan

3/10 - Must try harder

"What makes it all the more delicious is that fully 75% of the 18-25 year olds who are whining about the old people denying them their promised future didn’t even bother to turn out and vote... and of those who did vote, a third of them voted for Brexit."

Well the ones I've seen on tv 'whinging' mostly did vote, or were below voting age, so I dunno where you 75% comes from.

Anyhow - funnily enough, despite being 53 now, I didn't become interested in politics til I started work (after graduating) - reading the broadsheets showed what a can of worms politics was. I'm sure I'm not the only one, can't recall those of us doing engineering at uni (one of the most intensive courses) talking much about politics, and that was when Heseltine got a can of paint over him at Manchester uni. I was too busy studying or trying to improve my guitar playing..

Now that was in the days when kids weren't a) working so hard to get their grades b) get into their preferred school c) had outside interests which helped with d) e) couldn't be so complacent at getting decent grades from uni/college and f) taking on part-time jobs to help get themselves through uni (which those of us of a certain age didn't need to do). Becoming a house/flat owner is probably another reason people start looking in more detail at politics - how things affect them - but in the current climate that's pretty bloody difficult, especially with high rents, and student loans to repay at some point etc. And never mind socialising. So no wonder they've either got other more pressing concerns or activities to busy themselves with.

More than two thirds of Remainers have degrees and two thirds of Leavers left school at 16. Certainly all the 'man or woman in the street' interviews I've seen are evidence of Leavers being ignorant, xenophobic, mouth-breathing morons who have been manipulated by ideologues smarter than them. Mostly they seem to be people angry at being left behind by the 21st century and are blaming immigrants and the EU for their plight, rather than themselves and our own governments.
Many jobs will go. We will all be much poorer. Our children will have far fewer opportunities. Our public services will suffer. On the bright side, we can have bendy bananas again. Well done Britain.

There it is in the proverbial nutshell.

The likes of Farage aren't idiots, they just hold idiotic views. Farage is very emotionally intelligent, you might almost say 'charismatic'. Beware charismatic politicians.

What a lot of the Leavers seem to want is socialism where the eligibility for help is determined along national (and a lot of the time, racial) lines.

So, Nationalist Socialism. Hmmmm. Bit of a mouthful, that. What we need is a snappy abbreviated form of the two words.

Any suggestions for a snappy term for it?

🙁

Richinbish. What a huge steaming pile of emotive, little Britain, spiteful bullshit.

How much of a piss take is it for the old to tell others to roll up ther sleaves and work harder whilst relaxing in their mortgage free houses with a healthy pension pot, just after voting to make the economy worse.

It was the old people, who fought wars and rebuilt the country and lobbied for workers’ rights

It was the old people's parents who did most of that stuff. The old people just got a booming post-War economy, free healthcare, pop music and lots of easy sex.

I'm mostly worried about Monday evening when 17 million people who struggle to separate fact from fiction panic because thousands of White Walkers are coming to Engerland.

@dannyh - whilst the status quo is usually more comfortable than change, the opposite side of your argument seems to be based on an assumption that everything would be better if we'd remained in. Genuine question, why then did the Remain campaign not manage to highlight this clear 'better future' to the majority who voted Leave? Surely it ought to have been simple and not required spin/exaggerations/lies.

I'm not saying in or out is best as I don't have the ability to predict the future with certainty but asking the Leave voters to evidence their plan for the better is not a convincing argument that remaining would have been better (leaving always involved uncertainty over negotiations involving others that couldn't possibly be predicted).

Richinbish. What a huge steaming pile of emotive, little Britain, spiteful bullshit.
How much of a piss take is it for the old to tell others to roll up ther sleaves and work harder whilst relaxing in their mortgage free houses with a healthy pension pot, just after voting to make the economy worse.

@mdavids do you even know how a pension pot is funded ? It depends how well the economy is doing , this is becoming more comical by the minute

yup the baby boomers ****ed us...

The future is now entirely in your hands.

The great illusion that has fooled so many.

We have just unleashed a series of events that we are unprepared for and unlikely to be able to contol

#fakecontrol
#outofcontrol

[quote=richinbish ]@mdavids do you even know how a pension pot is funded ?

Yes. Do you know what happens to that pension pot when you retire and take your pension, and how much is the amount of pension you get every month affected by the state of the economy?

The future is now entirely in your hands.

It's a shame about the handcuffs and blindfold

Genuine question, why then did the Remain campaign not manage to highlight this clear 'better future' to the majority who voted Leave?

They did. It was in the sodding great booklet that went through everyone's front door. The same booklet that 100% of the people I know who voted 'leave' didn't bother to read. The same booklet that everyone I know who voted 'remain' did read.

Willful ignorance followed by an economically disastrous decision followed by repeating over and over again "don't call us names, we're all in it together now, let's all pull in the same direction". Can you now appreciate why I am absolutely ****ing livid?

And yes, I did use "we're all in it together" deliberately, because the last time that one got trotted out all anyone could do was have a pop at Dave and Gideon.

Now an ignorant (willful or genuinely) majority have dropped us down a big, dark, shit-filled hole and are getting narky when the barely smaller minority get pissy with them.

What the **** are we going to do to offset the economic disaster? Because here's the thing, if I was going to tip the apple cart over in the vain hope of starting over again, I'd have a very clear plan of what needs to happen from day one.

All the knuckle-dragging halfwit in the street can go on about is what 'we' have been freed [u]from[/u] (and they have mostly got that wrong too). So what have 'we' been freed [u]for[/u]? What positive steps are in place or being put in place quickly to deliver this vaguely defined utopia?

I don't know how many more times I can post on here, because trying to reason with idiots is the definition of insanity. There won't be a different outcome however many times you try.

WHAT IS THE PLAN?

Danny would you have been able quantify the next 2 years? Are you sure you could guarantee it?No.

Danny would you have been able quantify the next 2 years? Are you sure you could guarantee it?No.

See you in two years mate. One or both of us might be living under a bridge by then, of course.

What's the plan?

Danny would you have been able quantify the next 2 years? Are you sure you could guarantee it?No.

You don't need to be able to guarantee it, you just need to provide a roadmap, based on expert advice and pre-discussions on what would happen in the event of a leave vote and how the country can be positioned to best deal with what's coming.

He blamed nobody, threatened nothing and sucked it up to say it was time now to regroup, rebuild and get back to business. He was also honest enough to understand the mood in much of the country and step down gracefully.

Haha - that's so fwking naive.

He has just politely offered the key of No. 10 to BoJo and said "you're the one who's crapped in the duvet - you clean it up"
🙄

Genuine question, why then did the Remain campaign not manage to highlight this clear 'better future' to the majority who voted Leave?

As has been stated many times (other thread), it's much harder to sell the benefits of "carry on as you are". We all know exactly how we were doing last week - whether shit, comfortable, optimistic or no hope for the future.

Loads of financial info on how the economy / country was doing (i.e. Remain case) was available and [s]has[/s] had a name - "The News", any many, many folks don't give two hoots about the news, the economy, politics etc - presumably that's why so many were googling the EU after the referendum 😯

And also, the same people (voters and VL politicians / campaigners) didn't give two hoots about reasonably informed people saying that an out vote would unleash a storm of shit. IT REALLY WASNT PROJECT FEAR. It was people desperately trying to get the uniformed / impossible to be informed / wilfully ignorant that they were racing full speed for a cliff edge

Whether it was economists, politicians, "experts", or just knowledgeable STW forum users wanting to express their concerns - very few (nobody?) appeared to be interested in listening to factual information or reasonably constructed forecasts.

Are Remain supporters bitter - too right. For me, because the info was there, the implications far reaching and the electorate (many that I heard) not interested in taking an informed decision ON THE ISSUES AT HAND.

Are Remain supporters poor losers - well unfortunately, I suspect we all will be...
... and our children...
... and our grandchildren

You don't need to be able to guarantee it, you just need to provide a roadmap, based on expert advice and pre-discussions on what would happen in the event of a leave vote and how the country can be positioned to best deal with what's coming.

In actual fact you don't even have to quantify it, all you have to show is that one side would be better than the other. So, with a pound that has already lost 8% of it value when I last looked, hundreds of billions wiped off the FTSE and it looking likely that the AAA credit rating rating wil get downgraded, which looks the better option right now?

I posted this on FB earlier - to try and put that £350M lie into context...

No £350M per week for NHS (no surprise)
No kerbs on immigration...
No truth in the Leave campaign???
£120 billion off London stock market - equivalent to running:
HM Armed Forces for FOUR YEARS...!
Or the NHS for ONE FULL YEAR

And globally £1.24 trillion wiped off stock markets - ONE DAY's global losses equivalent to 10 years' UK NHS Budget
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending ]The £350M p/w & Immigration Lies[/url]

Just so those that are saying suck it up and get on with it can have half a fwking clue what they're talking about 👿

@dannyh - cheers. My query was more why an apparently compelling message couldn't be landed persuasively.

We'll have to see what the future holds but I'm inclined to think there's mutual benefit to everyone involved limiting the negative impacts so with some upside it won't be the economic disaster you fear. If the EU continues its expansion and fails then it might prove to be akin to the potentially disastrous euro decision which never was.

This is why i'm not bending over and taking the vote leave result without voicing my opinions, an incredibly ignorant selection of voters from Romford and i genuinally do feel for the young girl (Fay) at the start of the video who voted remain.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36626004 ]Link to BBC clip here, it may leave you shaking your head in disgust[/url]

This is probably the most far fetched, overly optimistic tenuous line of approach ever, but given how the challenge to the result based on requiring a higher majority isn't really going to work, could you base a challenge on accusations of fraud instead?

It's one thing to say you're going to do one thing and then just be rubbish at it or not get round to it, but to claim something then immediately say that's not what you meant after people took you for your word seems sufficiently dishonest to be worth investigating...

This is why i'm not bending over and taking the vote leave result without voicing my opinions, an incredibly ignorant selection of voters from Romford and i genuinally do feel for the young girl (Fay) at the start of the video who voted remain.

Link to BBC clip here, it may leave you shaking your head in disgust

I don't think I can feel disgust for those muppets. I genuinely feel sorry for them.

As for the single mum, I could hazard a guess why she might also get quite a lot of stick apart from her political views, but I'll leave the rest of you to fill in the gaps on that one.

I still feel that the anger towards the English/Welsh people who voted out is mis-placed.
The Eton/Oxford well educated, not too old, father of children, leader of Remain stated that if he hadn't got the concessions he negotiated earlier in the year, that he would not have ruled out backing a leave vote.
So if you didn't think the concessions were up to much, and the well educated not too old leader of Remain thought they were the only difference between in and out, then a less well educated, maybe even old, person could be forgiven for thinking that the decision was marginal and a leave vote was not an unreasonable thing to do, particularly as these balance tipping concessions weren't guaranteed to be ratified.

That video is sad and terrifying. The old classic immigrant stance. On one hand they're lazy, uneducated and unskilled. Yet on the other hand they're stealing all the jobs 🙄

Stanhope sums it up perfectly as always

Don't worry, I'm sure that when more companies pull out of the north and Wales and more unemployed people come cap in hand for even more of Londoners' taxes, London will be only to happy to help. #NeverForget

And I have to say - those who are carping on that Scotland should accept the result...

... yes they should - there result was IN

I would have been upset if Scotland had left the Union in 2014(?), but it's their choice to make - but TBH, Scotland's politicians have shown themselves as head and shoulders above England & Wales'.

Say what you like about Sturgeon - she's canny, an addroit politician and appears to be working her butt off to look after the Country she represents