[Closed] My Mrs Said the Strangest Thing Last Night

I think that making it look like an omnishambles is all part of the plot. When it comes to the true blue Tory ideological stuff, they're refusing to stray off course, no matter what happens. George Osbournes 'There is no Plan B" being just the starkest and most obvious example

The rest of the stuff is just noise

They're busy bulldozing through the irreversible dismantling of the state at a frankly alarming rate. Policing, Education and Health are all being prepped for full scale privatisation. And if they get it all through, there will be no going back

History will view this lot as the most radical and destructive government this country has ever seen. Thatchers divisive legacy will pail into insignificance next to the long term damage this lot are wreaking

The most depressing thing about the whole thing is the virtual silence and total impotence from the utterly pathetic Millibean led Labour party. They're a disgrace, not worthy of the name 'opposition'

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/17/cameron-goes-where-thatcher-never-dared?INTCMP=SRCH ]Be afraid. Be very afraid![/url]

i agree with binners

does anyone want to admit to still having confidence in the Jolly Boys Outing currently taking place at Numbers 10 & 11 Downing street?

No, but I also don't have any confidence in any of the current alternatives 🙁

If there was an election tomorrow I fear I'd be drawing a c*ck and balls on a ballot paper again!!

With solemn regret, and a degree of confusion....

....Binners +1, especially

The most depressing thing about the whole thing is the virtual silence and total impotence from the utterly pathetic Millibean led Labour party. They're a disgrace, not worthy of the name 'opposition'

Exactly what Binners said.

There will still be room for the good amongst you to move to an independent scotland though.

I agree with Nick 😉

Can't see anyone who could support this lot, but as said above there is no alternative. Are the monster raving looney party still going?
No wonder people are turning to the more extreme parties, if I had to vote now I think would vote green although I'm pretty sure we would be in another big (but different type of) mess if they got it. Or vote the same as JEngledow!

Sad thing is Labor are about as much use as a water proof teabag currently they have 0 ideas other than lets spend some money which we don't have.
Yes the coalition have cut hard but in all seriousness they had no choice if we had done nothing we would be in a far worse position than Greece is in.
For years we have spent more as a nation and as individuals than we have earnt this is unsustainable at some point you have to stop.
Long term damage was already caused by the spend spend generation I like health care and the police etc etc but if they cost more than we earn then we can not afford them in their current state.
I hate commenting on this sort of thread

Yes the coalition have cut hard but in all seriousness they had no choice if we had done nothing we would be in a far worse position than Greece is in.

with respect thats bollox

[i]The party's trouble springs not from a lack of rightwing zeal but from failed austerity medicine, and the polls are grim. Cameron pledged national debt would be falling as a percentage of GDP by 2015: it won't. Instead the Office for Budget Responsibility says net debt will rise by £465bn. That's more than the £319bn it rose in all of Labour's 13 years.[/i]

Present Tory policies are driving the deficit relentlessly up. Be under no illusions, they regard this, along with the mass unemployment fuelling it, as 'a price worth paying' for their ideological 'mission'. Which is to strip away the state completely, and fundamentally restructure society in the most unequal way imaginable. All for the exclusive benefit of a tiny minority - themselves and their rich friends

Long term damage was already caused by the spend spend generation I like health care and the police etc etc but if they cost more than we earn then we can not afford them in their current state.

The fact that anyone believes this crap just shows how devastatingly effective their relentless campaign of disinformation, (eagerly fuelled by a right wing press) has been

I think these threads are more illuminating when you see who fails to.comment on them....

Yes the coalition have cut hard but in all seriousness they had no choice if we had done nothing we would be in a far worse position than Greece is in

That is the right wing drivel they spouted to shaft the public sector and the TINA [ there is no alternative] is a lie

They could have [ sit down and prepare yourself] raised taxes from the rich to blance the books rather than than hit the disabled and cut the higher rate of tax....radical th inlking i know but all perfectly feasible
Or cut more slowly
It is ideologically driven everyone knows this who follows politics

Yup, one more for binners here [gonna get some kind of record here fella], aslo with regret and quiet, sad resignation. Not cos I don't want to agree with binners. I'm a Lib Dem voter. I supported the coalition at the start as I saw, given the numbers, no other way.

I'm actually OK with the tuition fees. Yes I'd rather they weren't there at all, and I despise the trend for monetising the value of an education. But the t&cs on these loans are better than they are on mine where the limit for paying them back doesn't rise with inflation but stays at 15k so effectively drops year on year. Not sure if mine get wiped out after 20yrs either tbh.

But the tories are guilty of moving the goal posts, and as a coalition it was a bold/ambitious one for a country that has not had one in modern times. I'd actually like us to have more, and be more of a multiparty nation, but coalition is likely to become a dirty word after this. Lib Dems are getting the shity end of the stick (in part deservedly, and in part not), and owing to the simplistic nature of debate in our media will likely be destroyed in the next election. As they will be blamed for what the tories are doing. I still think things would have been worse had the coalition not happened. Another election in 6 months could well have return a tory majority as George's enept cluelessness would not have destroyed everything by then. But a part of me is wondering if five years of tory rule, time for them to bugger everything up with no-one else to take the blame. Might have been better in the long run, force labour to find its balls, and maybe through byelections given the libs and the Labs a chance and calling a vote of no confidence and bringing it to an end.

Long story short, after the last election there was no good way forward. [unless you like calling him Dave]

have to agree with Binners as well

What Binners said, but with more swearing.

Lib Dems are getting the shity end of the stick (in part deservedly, and in part not), owing to the simplistic nature of debate in our media will likely be destroyed in the next election

Oh right, so no discernible position on anything and a complete failure to capitalise on the opportunity to properly examine electoral reform has got nowt to do with it? clearly its just down to the thick people who vote not being able to see through the charade presented to them ....... hang on a minute isn't that precisely why they won't vote for your lot?....... Anyone would think you lot were led by an Old Etonian too!

What screwed us all over was 13 years of labor government in which amongst many things they sold all our gold reserves out at the bottom of the market. Believed that the market would always keep going up and borrowed borrowed and borrowed some more in the hope that tmrw would pay for today it didn't work !!
You save in the good times for times like this.
You suggest going back to the same way is a solution, wrong its the problem.
People need to take responsibility for the mess we are all in rather than looking for someone else to blame.

I have to say... I'm getting quite unnerved by all this agreeing with me. Just to check... this is the Singletrack Forum, isn't it?

You suggest going back to the same way is a solution, wrong its the problem.

Who's suggesting that then? What everyone seems to be in agreement with is that the present Tory policies, far from offering a solution to the problem - the reduction of the deficit - are making it considerably worse/larger.

And if you think these policies are being driven by their stated aim - to reduce the deficit - rather than their [b]actual[/b] aim - to dismantle the welfare state, and then privatise the education system, NHS, policing, and pretty much anything else they can think of, then you're simply not paying much attention to whats [b]actually[/b] happening on the ground

To fully understand what is [b]actually[/b] taking place in this counrty, read this

[img] [/img]

And start being very very worried about where they're taking us

Binners, another 5 and you get a "Get out of Ban free" card. 😀

BB - All the parties are guilty of it, its easier to get cheap soundbite win in, over a substantive arguement about something which more complicated than most people want to take the time to understand.

LDs did try do get electoral reform off the ground but I don't know if you remember the AV campaigns, both of which were pretty appalling, the pro insipid, lazy and patronising, and the 'no' at best misleading and in my opinion outright lied. That wasn't debate it was a simplistic, emotive, and a let down, from all parties.

Sometimes the lack of substance has benefitted the Lib Dems, it could be argued it put them into power, but right now its punnishing them and benefitting Labour, who's most outstanding and substantive contribution to the politcal landscape in the last 6 months had been a staggering silence [given recent efforts is actually a pretty shrewd play by them tbh].

In response to the OP,
As for CMD and co, they've done and said enough to remind the public of their true motivations, whilst achieving little. It could have been worse, Borris for instance.
I'd say confidence in the Lib Dems from people who may consider them a voting option is growing a bit again.
Clegg was always onto a hiding to nothing from the start, but he and the Lib Dems are in a stronger position now than in the coalition's early stages. Even from inside the government, they've been a more vocal and effective opposition than Labour.
People will remember Clegg's apology, and associate him and his party with an idealogical opposition to the fee rises, even if he actually did the opposite. Strange but true, but at least he does something.
In contrast, I'm not sure people will remember a word Milliband's uttered over the course of this term, or ever have a clue as to what he represents. A decent opposition leader should have shredded this lot on so many occasions but he just seems to be waiting for something to happen.

Overall, I reckon confidence in Brittish politics as a whole is as low as in this particular government.

If there was an election tomorrow I fear I'd be drawing a c*ck and balls on a ballot paper again!!

One annoying thing about this lot is that they are using headline grabbing cuts (that are fuelling some Tory ideological things for the most part, like scaring off poor people from university or cutting benefits) to sneak in some really nasty Tory stuff in areas like immigration without anyone really noticing.

I like to think I would vote for green or another small party next time as Labour have gone very wishy washy, the lib dems have committed suicide and the Torys are undiluted evil. But really voting Labour is the only way out of the terror we are being plunged into.

nashwaymule - Member

What screwed us all over was 13 years of labor government in which amongst many things they sold all our gold reserves out at the bottom of the market.

once again i call bobbins!!!!

it really is amazing how many people believe just what the press tell them to

I think a lot of the problem stems from politicians acting as if they are unaccountable, and a voting public acting as if they don't care.

I'd like to see it mixed up a bit.
Whichever constituency gets the lowest percentage turnout of votes cast, loses their seat in parliament. Just completely scratched for the next term, no MP. No more "safe seats".
Those constituents get one day a week when the next nearest MP will listen to their problems, but apart from that lose their representation as a kind of incentive to put some effort in the next time. No actually, make that the bottom ten constituencies .
That should make them earn their votes, and make the voters use their vote.

BB - All the parties are guilty of it, its easier to get cheap soundbite win in, over a substantive arguement about something which more complicated than most people want to take the time to understand.

It may appear irreversible currently, but if we decide as a people that we want these services back in public ownership then it would be up to the government to sort it out and make it happen.
Nothing is truly impossible.

Nothing is impossible. True. But the devil is in the detail.

For example, the NHS reform is truly insidious. Just one phrase changes the whole nature of the idea of the NHS itself. It is that services must be delivered by 'Any Qualified Provider'

What these three words do is legally throw the NHS open to EU competition law. From that point on any healthcare 'provider' (read: deep-pocketed profit-making multinational) will be able to legally challenge any decision made by GP's decision on commissioning, disputing their d3cision not to award the contract to them. Thus they can force themselves into the healthcare market. Only to cherry pick the 'services' they see as profitable, of course

There a stunning irony in the Tories using EU law to achieve their long-dreamed-of privatisation of the NHS. An institution they claim to loath

I agree with TJ.

i agree with binners

Bliar's/Brown's divisive legacy will pail into insignificance next to the long term damage this lot are wreaking

I don't like to post on political threads, but personally, dimantling the state is a good thing in my book. And I certainly wont be one of the 'elite few' reaping the benefits.
Ha, reaping benefits.. that's funny.

it really is amazing how many people believe just what the press tell them to

So it's not true? they didn't flog the gold for bobbins?

Whom should I believe?

Whom should I believe?

Me. Obviously. Now just agree with me and have done with it 😀

agreed.

There's something wrong with wanting to be a politician.

Binners +1.

Anyone who wants to be a politician should automatically be excluded from doing so.

slimjim78 - Member

So it's not true? they didn't flog the gold for bobbins?

Whom should I believe?

they sold 60% of the reserve for 3.5bn from 1999- 2002

unfortunately several years later there was a big economic crash and the price of gold went up so if it was sold now it would be worth 4-5x more

heres a graph

[img] [/img]

either way it represents a tiny fraction of the national debt and in theh grand scheme of things means bugger all,
it was however used extensively by the torys and their media chums, as part of the vitriolic character assassination of gordon brown,

is that graph adjusted for inflation?

The loss is now valued at about £5Billion isn't it?
I reckon the police could put that sort of money to good use.
I did think that he'd sold pretty much all of it though (at a 20 year low)

£5billion?

Pretty insignificant when compared to the rate Dave and the boys are adding to the national debt currently.... surely?

[img] [/img]

I'm no expert but this looks pretty shit from where I'm sitting.

Pretty insignificant when compared to the rate Dave and the boys are adding to the national debt currently.... surely?

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/
I found this pretty good.

There's something wrong with wanting to be a politician.

Anyone who wants to be a politician should automatically be excluded from doing so.

Go to [s]the library[/s] Amazon and get a copy of Plato's Republic. He did this question is some considerable depth nearly 2,500 years ago....

Anyway, I;d also give binners one. Vote of support that is.

I don't really like or seem to agree with ANY politician. But the current encumbents have been sent into the building site by us and asked to rebuild a nice house out of the rubble left by the previous bunch. And we don't like what they are having to do, or how its looking.

By 'us' I am meaning the royal 'us' not us in the real us sense.

First G&T of the evening in, can I suggest a long term view? Post 1947, and the creation of the NHS (or indeed post 1912 and NI) all our parties have been pulled to the centre. Right wing can't get rid of 'socialist' health service (hopefully!) and left wing can't get rid of banks (spineless). Thus "politics" is mostly wrangling over the fine print, therefore intrinsically boring and alienating to most of the electorate (low voter turnout). Result is coalition WITH NO MANDATE totally destroying the country. Result is-going to hell in a handcart, probably with slick tyres to speed entry.

Seadog to stretch your point we dont like them because they set fire to the rubble, then ran it over with a crusher and told us they had no choice.

Everyone knows it would be bad [ or not as good as boom times] but as the sated aim was to reduce the deficit it is clear that cutting the hell out of everything has still increased the amount we owe. By anyones measure that is a fail as it is worse than when they started "rebuilding " the house

I'm certainly no fan of the banks' methods but why on earth would you want to "get rid" of the industry which contributes the most to our GDP?

I'm certainly no fan of the banks' methods but why on earth would you want to "get rid" of the industry which contributes the most to our GDP?

Depends how you measure it, and what you mean by 'banks'.

Typically when people are moaning about banks, they mean investment banking / hedge funds etc, which are only a small part of the things that go on in the city, so are way less financially productive than (for example) manufacturing, 'creative industries' (games and films and music) etc.

Even if you consider all the city stuff, ie. All banking but not wider financial stuff like your high street accountant or whatever, it is hard to find a measure that puts it higher than manufacturing.
Eg.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_the_city_contribute_14_of_gdp-2397

To add to that, given the level of state subsidy and rescue of major banks over the last few years, not to mention the damage their reckless actions and insane risk models have done to the wider economy, it's hard to argue that the investment side of banking has had a net positive effect on the economy recently.

Mmmmmm not really. The bail outs given to the banks aren't dead money though. We'll get it back, probably more.
Banking is an industry, its not seperated into investment, high st etc so when people refer to banking; they must mean.......banking. Which is the biggest contributor to our GDP. It's not something I'm personally happy about but it's just how it is.

so when they say banking they dont mean Finance and business but just banking so you end up with less than manufacturing or 9% v 11.6%
> http://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_the_city_contribute_14_of_gdp-2397

why on earth would you want to "get rid" of the industry which contributes the most to our GDP?
Out of interest how much of the last 4 years and subsequent fallout do you think has been caused by the banking sector and what has been its effects on our GDP?
People want to get rid * it because it has cost us a lot and rather shafted the total economy...I am not sure why I have needed to state that tbh.
* dont think they do they want its excesses controlled, they want the bonus system to end and they want to feel like the bankers who caused this are feeling the squeee just like every other ordinary person.

 

In with the Binn. binners is doing such a good job, I hardly need to comment these days.

+1 Binners

these IOU's are largely academic, have you seen the US debt!!!!!!!

I'm with Binners....this lot are proper dire!

+1 Binners.

A couple of thoughts to add. If "banking" is such a significant part of our GDP, how and from where does it "create" money? By dealing in "money"? But somewhere, something has to be manufactured surely? Or are we supplying a service to China and India? If so, when will they wise up and service themselves?

For the record, I don't trust or believe this bunch of shysters (Government). Even if they told me night was dark and rain was wet, I would still think there was an angle. As for the Labour party. 🙄

Ultimately it's driven by economics.

Sadly these fidiots believe in trickle down economics. I.e. The rich getting richer will filter down and benefit the poorer.

Which is evidently bollocks.

A colleague (who shall remain nameless) was [/s]un[s]fortunate enough to accompany the Cameron trade mission to China.

General gist of his summary was along the lines of:

"Hi. I'm Dave. Used to be in PR donchaknow! This is George. Bloody hell George! We were at Eton together! And now I'm PM! And you're Chancellor! How the **** did this happen?!"

and off they went for more Champers....

I hear Norway is nice....

Binners -1

Just for the **** of it.

Ultimately it's driven by economics.

The US is the worlds biggest debtor, in monetary terms, a significant amount of it is owed to china and japan, japan has debts of 220% of GDP-- these cannot be realistically called in, capitalism would meltdown, so they are forever being 'traded'-- each trade 'earns' a sum-- for those involved in this pass the parcel-- if it goes wrong, well the state will bale them out.....

Capitalism is in crisis, its leaders have no answers to the problems that they have nurtured, staggering from one summit to another, interesting times.........

Why was borrowing rising when the economy was booming? Anyone with half a brain knows that you need to save money in the good times to prepare for the bad times.

I despair at the hopelessness of modern democracy and the fact that humans are incapable of making any system, from capitalism to communism work in the long-term. We evolved to be hunter-gatherers and our brains are still no more advanced...

Unfortunately, the folk who have the brains and skills to run the country well (for the benefit of all citizens/subjects) are too busy doing more interesting things...

(I suppose we could always import a few politicians from Germany - they generally seem to be a bit more competent & we seem to import everything else so why not...?)

binners - Member
I have to say... I'm getting quite unnerved by all this agreeing with me. Just to check... this is the Singletrack Forum, isn't it?

From a casual observance recently from what i can see anyone who might disagree or have right wing views is banned, or would be for uttering them, is that not the case?

As to the OP's wife, she is spot on, nobody outside of politics has any faith whatsoever in either the Politicians, or any instrument of the State, like the Police, as to the NHS anyone with any sense at all avoids it like the plague and it doesn't take much business acumen to realise borrowing huge sums of money to finance groups of individuals clustered around computers all day instead of doing what they should be, either in the Police Force or the NHS, is a busted flush. Don't even get me started on financing wars on borrowed money, or a huge state benefit system, if I had my way, there would be nothing for anyone unless it was earned, I'd set up huge Energy Farms powered by people in Hamster wheels or exercise bikes connected to generators, even the disabled could take part and pay them for the energy they create... Everyone would contribute, they would all be fitter and certainly not fat (nobody came out of Belsen over weight), Bankers? Hang them all and start over.

Apologies for the Rant..

how's life in bedrock fred ? ^^^

From a casual observance recently from what i can see anyone who might disagree or have right wing views is banned, or would be for uttering them, is that not the case?

from what i can see anyone who might disagree or have right wing views is banned, or would be for uttering them, is that not the case?

Yes that is what did for TJ his rabid right wing views 🙄

i think the thing is right wing can stray all the way to neo nazi and that is not tolerated on here.

Plenty of right wing folk on here as a quick read of this or any politics thread will show.

Sadly these fidiots believe in trickle down economics. I.e. The rich getting richer will filter down and benefit the poorer.

Which is evidently bollocks

I've been told this often, but exaclty why? And please no-one post that stupid long post about the loaves of bread again, that didn't answer anything.

If people get rich, and they stay in the UK (I know many don't) then what happens to their money? They spend it, don't they? I know some goes to China etc but plenty surely doesn't..

But somewhere, something has to be manufactured surely?

No, not at all. Why would it?

If people get rich, and they stay in the UK (I know many don't) then what happens to their money? They spend it, don't they? I know some goes to China etc but plenty surely doesn't.

GAWD BLESS EM for helping us rather than themselves

TBH i dont think the right wing who say this even believe it it is just spin for them to justify why they are doing it.

This may come as a shock, but just because the rich are in the UK, doesn't mean their money is with them. No longer content to sit in suitcases under the bed, its now pretty independent and often likes to swan off and do its own thing. Going on holiday to fancy pants destinations like the Caymen Islands, Belize, Monaco and the like.

See Tory Tax adviser, and Monaco domiciled (you really couldn't make it up, could you?) Phillip Green*, Tory MP (and former French non-dom) Zac Goldsmith, or government adviser and Belize resident Lord Ashcroft (who generously donates some of the money he hasn't paid in tax directly to the Tory party instead)

Sometimes it does stay in the country. But this usually involves being invested in uber-expensive London property. All bought through a front company to ensure no tax or stamp duty is paid

So... we're all benefiting how exactly from the 'trickle down' from these ****ing parasites?

Oh... actually... I'm sure they have many staff. All on minimum wage. Which they no doubt consider overly generous

* who, lest we forget, funneled £1.5 billion in dividends through his wifes Monaco accounts to avoid paying a penny in tax, on income all generated in this country.

Aye green regularly sends letters and memos to the Tax office advising them on how to raise more tax from businesses. It really is amazing just how brazen a government can be about this it is appalling.

YOu really could not make this up

Of course rich people spend all the money they have that is why they are rich

So where do they get their flash cars and houses from then?

Obviously they are spending a good deal of it.

And less sarcasm - I'm looking for a serious economic discussion. For those earning over say £200k (not talking billionaires) - how much of their money goes:

a) in tax
b) on overseas living
c) to overseas manufacturers?

Ill-informed ranting and supposition will be ignored.

Molly. How on earth do we, as a society, benefit from Bernie Ecclestone, and his ilk, buying their pampered parasitic offspring £50 million Chelsea townhouses? When they're bought through front companies to ensure they pay no tax or stamp duty?

Molly. How on earth do we, as a society, benefit from Bernie Ecclestone, and his ilk, buying their pampered parasitic offspring £50 million Chelsea townhouses?

From whom did they buy the house?

^^^^ you answered a question with a question that seems to have little bearing on the question asked - could you explain how we all benefit from this?

You really think we could actually get those figures ?
Good Luck

Ill-informed ranting and supposition will be ignored.

Molly. If I nipped out and buy a can of beans, 20% of the cost of this will be VAT. I will therefore be contributing more to society than, for example, Bernie Ecclestone buying a £50 million house through a front company? He will be buying the house off someone else who will also have registered the property through a front company, so won't be paying any tax on the enormous profit he makes on the transaction

Do feel free to enlighten me to the justice of this situation? All our (you know... the 'little people') financial transactions incur tax. The mega-rich just devise schemes where theirs don't. And the government - mainly multi-millionaires themselves remember - see this as perfectly acceptable

Trickle down? I'm afraid its the other way around

For Mol,

Power and wealth are the preserve of the ruling class , they 'make' the rules skewed of course to benefit themselves and their ilk, however they need lots of little people to actually do the work that produces this wealth, thats where you come in, you work long hours, and are encouraged to believe that is the way life is-- you get some small rewards, but you must keep on working or all you have strived for will have been ion vain(mortgage).

Meanwhile back at the top table,lots of partying to be done, a few arms twisted here and there, a few palms to be greased, and some promises made to officials of various govts', you are always amazed at how few rich people can cajole and control the millions below, still life is always good at the top......

you answered a question with a question that seems to have little bearing on the question asked

It has a bearing. The point I am trying to make is that all money circulates. So if you spend a bunch of money, it doesn't disappear - it gets transferred to someone else.

Do feel free to enlighten me to the justice of this situation?

[b]I'm not claiming that any of this is just[/b], or that what rich people do is all fine and dandy. Let's just make that absolutely clear.

I am saying that if someone buys a house, that money goes somewhere. It's all well and good to claim it disappears up the chuff of some other rich person, but you've crossed the line into biased guesswork.

Someone somewhere received money from the sale of that house. What did they do with it? Let's assume it was recently rennovated, and it was brought from a property developer. That person is likely to be a lot less rich than Ecclestone but still pretty rich by our standards. So maybe they live in a big house in Oxfordshire, not in the Seychelles. That money then gets spent by them in their local environment, no? To rennovate the house they probably employed local London contractors, who can now feed their families etc.

I'm not saying trickle down works and is fine, I AM NOT A TORY. But I am interested in the economics of the situation, and I want to go beyond Socialist Worker style red flag waving. I do not think that this £50m is dead money to the UK economy, but I am happy to accept sound evidence to the contrary should it be available on this thread, which I doubt.

It has a bearing. The point I am trying to make is that all money circulates.

I'll repeat the earlier example: Phillip Green made £1.5 billion in profit. This was all generated in high street sales from British shops. He then funnels all this money through his wifes Monaco bank accounts so as not to pay any tax. And would you believe the Tories got this leech on board to advise on Tax policy?!!!! Like I said... you really couldn't make it up!

So, anyway... This £1.5 billion has left the country to a super-yacht endowed, billionaires playground without contributing a penny in tax to the country where it was earned*

In what way is this money 'circulating'?

* the word earned is used figuratively, obviously

Well for what it's worth in my career I've held both extreme views, from being a very left wing NUJ branch secretary in the Seventies where demarcation was the rule until now, where I actually voted bloody Tory in the last election such was my disgust at Blair and Brown squandering the opportunity they were given in the late 90's, it is a sad fact they all want to appear to be City friendly and there's nothing that corrupts a socialist more than a champagne lifestyle.

The problem we are actually faced with now is simply one of perception, we perceive they are all stupid and they probably are. Business folk like myself who need to employ more people, desperately as it happens, can't because we have no faith in the future, nor do we want to invest by borrowing (not that we could as the Banks stand right now) or investing cash if we were lucky to have any left after five years of recession, again due to negative perception of a future market in the near term.

No-one is selling sun filled uplands as the future right now and seriously they need to so nobody does anything, we exist one day to the next and hope things will work themselves out, meanwhile the banks that yes, are the cause of the problem and are not swayed by Government other than negatively in the increasing demands placed upon their debt ratios and capitol requirements by the Basle agreements and other reports that the BOE are being advised by. Meanwhile business failures are running at the date of 10,000 plus a year I believe I read somewhere.

Concerning money leaving the country I was interested to hear about the Bristol Pound, anyone know anything more about it? They are or have created their own currency in Bristol with the view of keeping cash local, I shall go google it after I finish this, it sounds like an interesting and radical concept, which we so desperately need to all this, some sort of live wire group with a radical solution and a change from the same old same old left and right wing politics, neither are tolerant of the other and politics never ever helped any commercial situation and until commerce does pick up we are going to continue to be in the crap.

Edit: Here an interesting example to radically keep money local [url= http://bristolpound.org ]Bristol Pound[/url]

The point I am trying to make is that all money circulates. So if you spend a bunch of money, it doesn't disappear - it gets transferred to someone else

I am saying that if someone buys a house, that money goes somewhere. It's all well and good to claim it disappears up the chuff of some other rich person, but you've crossed the line into biased guesswork

Let's assume it was recently rennovated, and it was brought from a property developer. That person is likely to be a lot less rich than Ecclestone but still pretty rich by our standards. So maybe they live in a big house in Oxfordshire, not in the Seychelles. That money then gets spent by them in their local environment, no? To rennovate the house they probably employed local London contractors, who can now feed their families etc.

Ill-informed ranting and supposition will be ignored.

I'm not saying trickle down works and is fine, I AM NOT A TORY. But I am interested in the economics of the situation, and I want to go beyond Socialist Worker style red flag waving. I do not think that this £50m is dead money to the UK economy, but I am happy to accept sound evidence to the contrary should it be available on this thread, which I doubt.

See those question marks? I am asking questions. If anyone has answers I will gladly hear them.

can i not jut make up a fanciful hypothetical scenario with a bucket load of assumptions like you do?

I don't think you understand. I am not trying to claim anything. I am trying to ask questions and promote discussion. You do however seem to be claiming a lot.

I'll repeat the earlier example: Phillip Green made £1.5 billion in profit

Binners that is one example. That's not a good picture of the general situation though, because there aren't many Phillip Greens compared to £200k plus earners.

it sounds like an interesting and radical concept

I think it's been done many times before. I don't see how it'll stop any money leaving the country though, you can just exchange it for other currencies after all, can't you?

binners - Member
It has a bearing. The point I am trying to make is that all money circulates.
I'll repeat the earlier example: Phillip Green made £1.5 billion in profit. This was all generated in high street sales from British shops. He then funnels all this money through his wifes Monaco bank accounts so as not to pay any tax. And would you believe the Tories got this leech on board to advise on Tax policy?!!!! Like I said... you really couldn't make it up!

So, anyway... This £1.5 billion has left the country to a super-yacht endowed, billionaires playground without contributing a penny in tax to the country where it was earned*

In what way is this money 'circulating'?

* the word earned is used figuratively, obviously

Sorry, don't mean to be picking on you, but Sunseeker make lots of those Yachts, right now they are the Southampton Boat show and the jobs building them are in the UK.. No idea if Richard Green bought one.

You can't blame folk for not wanting to pay tax to these idiots who squander it, cheat on their expenses, fight wars for their own self aggrandisement and any number of other means of wasting it.