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Boy home, patched up.
Asking all the way home from hospital where is Buddy, can’t wait to see him.
We left dog in other room until things settled. Son and dog had a cuddle. Son not bothered at all!
That I read very, very positively. This....
I instantly broke down in tears ffs
... I totally understand!
considering he’s a big dog, most of he damage would be down just by swinging his head round, and not a bite. Having wound up dogs when i was younger (sometimes as an adult), they will swing with an open mouth and “catch” as opposed to going in full rip your face/arm off… I know many will disagree, but there is a massive differenc between a bite and a catch..
^ This is well observed Our little dog got on the wrong side/too close to a big golden lab who fired a ‘warning shot’ by catching our dog’s whole head. Deep puncture wound received in the cheek. If the lab had been ‘ properly’ attacking then ours would have been ragged in a moment.
Another time he also had his head in an old retriever’s mouth, which suddenly went for him when he was a pup. I expected to see our pup come out of there with no eyes or face, it sounded and looked so aggressive. Yet he was merely slobbered and dazed. Luck of the draw.
Very best wishes to the OPs son - it sounds like they had already been very clear with their child on what not to do so it’s rotten luck.
Two things to throw into the mix which could help to avoid a repetition if the dog stays:
1. Get the dog off the sofa. There’s definitely an issue with where dogs see themselves in the pack when they are allowed to sleep on sofas and beds etc.
2. Give the dog somewhere quiet where it can sleep without getting disturbed.
We’ve done this but even with that my modus operandi is that I can never trust the kids and dogs to be in the same room unsupervised.
Good video's up there. I never knew about the 'lip licking' thing and I've owned dogs for 25+ years and had them in the family all my life!
We left dog in other room until things settled. Son and dog had a cuddle. Son not bothered at all!
That's a result.
I'll spend a couple of days thinking about it, won't make any decisions yet..I'll see if I think son can be trusted to not be such a knobber. If he's still no heeding, dog will go for his own sake.
Agree with the sofa's. I hate that anyway.
We are pretty strict about it all anyway, don't leave kids alone (clearly sometimes it happens).
Sounds like it was probably down to your son, rather than the dog. BUT if it happens again & he is badly hurt then you’ll both have to live with your decision to keep it.
Maybe give the vet a tinkle on the blower - the dog might have been ill or in discomfort prior to the bite.
1. Get the dog off the sofa. There’s definitely an issue with where dogs see themselves in the pack when they are allowed to sleep on sofas and beds etc.
2. Give the dog somewhere quiet where it can sleep without getting disturbed.
1, yes for many dogs, some not so much - eg. our completely furless whippet freezes on the floor and is ridiculously submissive anyway.
2. is a no brainer, whatever dog you have, they need a safe space they can retreat to - box/bed/crate/etc
the issue comes if they see the sofa as their safe space
ours both have boxes out in the kitchen away from the usual tomfoolery of the 6 & 9 yr old, one goes there a lot (saluki) for quiet time, one not so much (aforementioned whippet)
Wife is going to talk to son when alone later. Just chatting to wife over a cuppa now, she said he was instantly apologising profusely when it happened. I didn't know this until now. So he was obviously doing something bad to the dog, and it just whipped around and clocked him.
OP, don't know if it would be worth having a chat with someone such as these people?
https://birkett-smith.org.uk/the-bsas-canine-behaviour-rehabilitation-centre
I know nothing about them. Just found them on the internet some time ago.
I think the dog goes to stay with them which would give you time to 'retrain' your little boy.
Just a thought in case it helps at all.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Asking all the way home from hospital where is Buddy, can’t wait to see him.
We left dog in other room until things settled. Son and dog had a cuddle. Son not bothered at all!
That's brilliant. You've clearly got a lovely dog there and a very grown up, clued up son.
Even more clued up now.
I'm normally one for saying that 'the dog has to go'. But if the situation was as you describe it, it sounds like there is scope for thinking before doing anything.
I like what @convert said:
After long angst about if he should be put down they decided to keep him. Happy to report many more happy years as a family passed with zero incidents before the dog died at a venerable age.
Very difficult situation, but now the dust has settled a bit it seems like the kid knows he was pushing the dog too far, kids can be right little dicks.
if a dog was aggressive around kids, it would be gone.
Not sure I agree, any friendly animal, including humans will lash out when pushed too far. Theres a big difference between an un-trained/agressive animal, and one thats been harrased and lashed out in the only way it can.
Will it be down to you to decide?
‘Child bitten (attacked) by dog’ will likely be flagged by the hospital.
Sorry to hear this..
It is none of my bussines etc.
The dog has to go ... sorry.
Next time it could be worse.
Sorry but.
Will it be down to you to decide?
‘Child bitten (attacked) by dog’ will likely be flagged by the hospital.
No point worrying about something that's out of your control. I think the OP and family have much food for thought already.
Ignoring the possibility doesn’t make it go away.
OP, it only seems to be referenced lightly in NICE (mainly against other risk factors).
https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/bites-human-animal/management/managing-a-cat-or-dog-bite/
Will it be down to you to decide?
‘Child bitten (attacked) by dog’ will likely be flagged by the hospital.
Funnily enough I was just talking to a mate about this thread, his sisters kid got bitten by the family dog (kid being a dick and not knowing boundaries, sounds like the same scenario).
The hospital called social services apparently, as they have duty of care etc. And social services came to vist to check out the situation. All ended up well, as the parents knew exactly what happened but did have to do some explaining that the kid was basically tormenting the dog to breaking point.
Wife is going to talk to son when alone later. Just chatting to wife over a cuppa now, she said he was instantly apologising profusely when it happened. I didn’t know this until now. So he was obviously doing something bad to the dog, and it just whipped around and clocked him.
Interesting - reminds me of me, I remember my parents talking very gravely of having ours put down, I equally remember saying they shouldn't, that it wasn't his fault. With the benefit of hindsight, they must have known I'd been bad, but the potential trauma of having Buster put down made me much more considerate around him, and we got along great as a result. Again, no hasty decisions needed.
Ignoring the possibility doesn’t make it go away.
Oh, great - worry about it all you like, then, and see how much difference that makes.
You might be a worrier, I’m a planner.
@Mattyfez, Yes I think they class it as ‘safeguarding’. Friend works in Children’s A&E and they have a duty of care to flag all sorts (often way over and above what’s sensible!).
Keep the dog! Your kid needs to be taught boundaries. Dogs, like us, have bad days and more than likely his 'cup had runneth over'.
I haven't read all the posts, so apologies if this has been mentioned already. Dogs seldom bite without sending out a lot of warning signals first. The trouble is we don't speak their language very well, so often don't pick up on them. Signs that a dog is uncomfortable with a situation and that it may escalate if the stressor isn't removed include: looking away; yawning; licking their "lips"; looking sideways and showing the whites of their eyes. A growl may be the final warning but doesn't always happen. A trainer and animal behaviourist told me "never try to stop a dog growling, it's like taking the batteries out of a smoke detector".
This is a great link to explain some of this.
reminds me of when my brother came to visit with his daughters with their bikes in the boot (stick with me!). He hadn't realised his wife had taken the helmets out of the boot for a spin with the scooters the day before.
The girls were excited about riding, we were exploring a new area, adults on foot, girls with bikes. We ended up walking down a trail that was steep and scrabbly. Girls were told to get off their bikes as soon as it got non-flat.
The headstrong one (headstrong isn't the half of it!) walked quicker to get ahead and out of "control" distance, got back on her bike and rode down the steepest bit at the bottom. To be fair to her, she rode out the rooty steps, but lost the front wheel in the sand at the bottom.
I started running after her as soon as saw her get on the bike. I found her with her hair tangled in the rear derailleur and a decent cut in her scalp. My bro felt terrible for heading out with helmets, his wife felt terrible for seeing them off without twigging they had bikes in the car but no helmets, I felt terrible about the route choice.
But the first thing Headstrong Niece said to me when I found her was "That was a bad decision!"
She was old enough to know better, she knew what she'd been told to do/ told not to do, and why, and that she'd made her own decision to ignore the instruction.
Sounds like this might be a similar situation (I know it's not identical), and you might have to let your son steer you to a certain extent about how much he knew he was pissing the dog off.
Sounds like he was trying to find out how hard he could push Buddy before bad things happened, and he'd have found out sooner or later, however much you'd have told him not to.
@dereknova Oh,for sure, It's important that the situtaion is looked at, I wasn't meaning to sound like I'm complaining, there are obviosuly bad dog owners with untrained dogs or dogs that are unsuitable for thier lifestyle etc. and that can obviously be a problem.
You might be a worrier, I’m a planner.
Worrier? Not me - either someone gets in touch or they don't, if they do then we can start looking at options. Until then - what are you planning?
Well, if they do get in touch it would help to be able to demonstrate:
- You know it’s a serious incident and as such:
- This is how you have researched making changes in environment / behaviour. This BMA paper talks to emotional impact for example ( https://bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/4/1/e000726)
- This is what you have put in place
Then SS see someone who has given it serious consideration rather than someone waiting to be contacted.
The fact you have planned makes you look far more aware of the circumstances.
Glad to hear your son is okay OP. I’d be interested in knowing exactly what the little blighter was doing to end up with his whole head in the dogs mouth. I’d agree with others stating dogs rarely bite without provocation.
I had a lovely lab, Leo, the best friend I’ve ever had. He once bit me without any warning and it was entirely my fault. I was brushing him with a short, metal brush and accidentally brushed his arse! Turned and bit with extraordinary speed. Fastest the big lump has ever moved.
The posts regarding dogs being pack animals are up for debate but that’s for another thread. In my experience they aren’t and the whole ‘Wolf in your living room’ and being alpha are laughable. The majority of modern domestic dogs are as far removed from the wild wolf as your neighbours fat house cat is from a Tiger
The problem is with your child, not the dog. How would you be with relentless hassle and provocation?
You may call it a bite, but I bet it was a warning nip for the dogs perspective.
It does sound like hes had to learn the hard way. He might leave the dog alone now.
The posts regarding dogs being pack animals are up for debate but that’s for another thread. In my experience they aren’t and the whole ‘Wolf in your living room’ and being alpha are laughable. The majority of modern domestic dogs are as far removed from the wild wolf as your neighbours fat house cat is from a Tiger
Slight thread de-rail, but I saw a documentary recently about wolf packs, and contary to popular belief, thier social structure is much more cooperative than an alpha top-down hierarchy.
Wish I could remember the name of it.
Sorry to derail further, but in line with the above - Most of what was historically documented of pack behaviour was from captive animals that form a screwed up version of a pack more akin to a prison gang. In nature they are family units, not a bunch of randoms thrown together. Dogs are in neither of these categories.
The fact you have planned makes you look far more aware of the circumstances.
Great - let's hope the OP gets on top of all that before the knock on the door. Will that be tonight, do you think?
Our friends/godson tormented the family Jack Russel - in its face screaming at it, dog bit him needing stitches. Dog has been fine before and since and it's a cantankerous JR.
We have a big 'wolf type dog' - young niece and nephew visited from Oz last year. Constant chats with my brother prior about the dog needing his own space/not a toy etc and to drum it into the kids.
There were a few times in the 3weeks when Bert took himself off to 'his space' and the kids were told to leave him.
Dogs are pretty complex things that need understanding especially when children are added to the mix.
Not sure I agree, any friendly animal, including humans will lash out when pushed too far.
Define 'pushed too far' because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he 'pushed the dog too far' as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn't pushing anything too far.
The dog sees the boy as something he can , well for want of a better word, attack, even if you play into the pack behaviour, the dog sees the child as subservient to itself, likely due to the dog recognizing the young age and placing that down the hierarchy.
I dont think the kid was bashing the dog or violently mistreating it, as it would appear many here have suggested by their rhetoric.
There has been about 20 children killed by the dog in the last 20 years, and far more adults. THAT is the worst that can happen. That is the risk, and while the vast majority of fatalities were of the pit bull type, not all.
Those are the fatalities, of (hospitalized) attacks the number is well over 2000. Total reported is close to 6000.
Experts blame – most not involving banned breeds – children being allowed to treat stressed dogs like cuddly teddy bears.
Which is apparently what he was doing when he got home. There is the trigger,according to the experts anyway, and a cuddle today might not end with the result of a cuddle tomorrow.
"Too far" for me was being right in his face, blowing up his nose. 🙁
Define ‘pushed too far’ because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he ‘pushed the dog too far’ as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn’t pushing anything too far.
The dog sees the boy as something he can , well for want of a better word, attack, even if you play into the pack behaviour, the dog sees the child as subservient to itself, likely due to the dog recognizing the young age and placing that down the hierarchy.
With all due respect I think you’re way wide of the mark and simply speculating. The OP hasn’t stated what his son was doing to provoke the dog. Why does it imply violent behaviour? Pondo is probably closer to the truth. One of our dogs but my brother because he kept pulling her tail.
I can speculate too and think the kid was probably teasing the dog in some way. Remember dogs aren’t people and have different stress factors. You’re applying your human rationale to a dog. It doesn’t work like that.
Please drop the pack hierarchy bollocks too. I’ll happily debate it with you in a fresh thread, but this isn’t the place for it.
Define ‘pushed too far’ because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he ‘pushed the dog too far’ as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn’t pushing anything too far
I don't think the OP has conveyed any sense that the boy was giving the dog a cuddle when it turned.
"f you can’t tell the difference between a stressed animal that is being provoked and one that is genuinely aggressive it is only in the best interests of the dog to rehome it. Try a Labradoodle Rescue organisation – they will have a list of prospective owners."
+1,
My daughter was bitten by our young Jack Russell when she was 6, not badly though. She was surprised and shocked.
"what were you doing?" I asked
"Nothing".
Whatever it was she never did it again...
Is this a family dog or the OP’s dog?
Long walks together, best buddy etc.
Do the children feed the dog and walk it?
Dogs will squabble for pack pecking order.
All our dogs from rescue to puppies have been left in no uncertain terms as to where they belong in the pecking order and have I believe felt secure because of this. This may sound harsh but if you invite dogs on the sofa and on the bed you are raising their pack status and in my opinion it’s just confusing the dog. If the dog is to be kept I think it’s status needs a bit of readjustment.
Re. Police/social services visit. Yes I would expect some follow up. Would be more shocking if nothing at all happened.
I'm making arrangements to speak with a dog behaviourist. Just wanted to see what they thought of him/the situation/family situation.
But I am far from settled in my mind
@inbred456 oh definitely a family dog. Yes I'm very close to him, but Buddy is without doubt a family dog. We all do walks together, and are all often sat together in the evet. The long walks are just me and him because the rest of the family don't have the legs for the long gallops! I find a long solo walk very therapeutic, especially in current times.
I don’t think the OP has conveyed any sense that the boy was giving the dog a cuddle when it turned.
Nope, nothing I saw either. Just parroting experts and what is a trigger for dogs attacking kids.
My family are dog owners. On black lab #2 now, the earlier dog 'Jet'(original for a black lab lol ) was a huge big lump of a thing, and my nephews growing up certainly cuddled him. So lets just agree its a possibility yeah. Again, im only like everyone else offering my opinion. Not wishing to debate individual points.
Personally I feel small children who are prone to cuddling the family dog, and large dogs dont mix. Fine with my sister, fine will millions of others but thats how I feel about it, given the statistics. Statistics, they come from somewhere don't they, and each carries a story.
I think the OP was very very lucky he still has a son, and my feelings on why its being debated are as Funk's post, speculation or debate for another thread.
Nothing much to add, but whatever decision - try not to "blame" anyone.
Your kid might have been annoying the dog. But thats what kids do. Kids are learning boundaries. Its not being "naughty". Your child is very young, and learning.
Same with the dog, its attacked (not nipped or any other euphemism) your son. He's only acting as a dog might. And thats not a warning, or a gentle closing of teeth, that's a proper bite.
Neither are at "fault" really. But if you have lost trust in the animal, regardless of being not the dogs fault, you'll never fully trust the animal again.
Its very sad, regrettable, but its not "punishing" or finding fault with either party, its just a fact the dog probably needs a different home where it will be happier and less stressed, one without small kids.
If the child loves the dog, and it's taken away, it might be the lesson the child needs to "listen to Daddy" and "look after things or you lose them" Both may come out of the experience happier, and or better educated for the experience.
But sorry for the position your in.
I’m sad to be reading this thread and can really feel for you OP. Just wanted to add that our family dog, a bearded Collie recently bit me on the face, not badly but enough to draw blood. Like you, this dog has been by my side since a puppy. I walk him, feed him and when younger was my faithful trail dog.
He had never done anything like this before and is actually quite bomb proof with kids, my two have grown up with him and when toddling our niece used to grab his beard!
He was on the floor in front of the fire and I just got down for a cuddle/wrestle and he went for me. It turns out that he has a bit of arthritis now and I must have caught him in the wrong place, so probably my fault. We as a family now know to be careful and there is no way he’s going anywhere. Your son will have learned a good lesson but will still hold a lot of love for the dog.
@kid.a sounds like your son was being a prat, I know this because the family dog bit me when I was being a prat, and a lot older and should have been wiser than your son, probably 12. Anyway I knew I'd had my jabs recently so patched up my foot and kept schtum as the dog was lovely and I didn't want my parents to know.
Best decision ever the dog was a huge part of my life growing up and I still miss her twenty years after she passed away.
My kids get a bollocking when caught messing with our dog and I keep telling them it'll be them not the dog that goes if he bites in retaliation 🙂
Feel for you. Your son sounds like a lesson may have been learned today.
Hopefully the stress of today will subside and you'll get back to where you were before today's incident sooner rather than later.
I remember being bitten on the face by our Weimaraner when I was 3 or 4. She was a nice steady soul and not the normal excitable type. I don't blame her though as I'd been trying to ride her like a horse whist she was resting in her bed. Sometimes people are dicks.
"Not sure I agree, any friendly animal, including humans will lash out when pushed too far.
Define ‘pushed too far’ because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he ‘pushed the dog too far’ as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn’t pushing anything too far.
The dog sees the boy as something he can , well for want of a better word, attack, even if you play into the pack behaviour, the dog sees the child as subservient to itself, likely due to the dog recognizing the young age and placing that down the hierarchy.
I dont think the kid was bashing the dog or violently mistreating it, as it would appear many here have suggested by their rhetoric.
There has been about 20 children killed by the dog in the last 20 years, and far more adults. THAT is the worst that can happen. That is the risk, and while the vast majority of fatalities were of the pit bull type, not all.
Those are the fatalities, of (hospitalized) attacks the number is well over 2000. Total reported is close to 6000.
Experts blame – most not involving banned breeds – children being allowed to treat stressed dogs like cuddly teddy bears.
Which is apparently what he was doing when he got home. There is the trigger,according to the experts anyway, and a cuddle today might not end with the result of a cuddle tomorrow."
You're a bundle of fun!
When did you last get a cuddle?
Your family have dogs, but do you? Do you have kids? Do you understand either?
A similar story from when I was a young kid (40+ years ago) was that my beloved Cebie (Heinz57) wasn't home when mum brought me back from nursery. My folks told me Cebie had gone to live on a friend's farm my dad knew through work - I was briefly upset but soon moved on with playing with my toys etc. Fast forward 35 - 40years and it popped in my head that the story didn't stack up so I brought up the subject.
Turns out Cebie had jumped out of the moving car window and skidded down the road. Shortly after he escaped and bounded upto the elderly gentleman next door and knocked him over. He was dragged off to the vets and put down.
Fast forward to having our own dog and I was more gutted when they told me what had actually happened that they hadn't put more time and effort into training the dog and had simply killed it instead.
There's bites and there's bites. My grandmother's dog could nip you if you got in its face - I remember it giving her a bleeding lip when she blew in its face to make it drop something. And one or two of our rescue cats have tried it on once or twice before they learnt their place.
But assuming the hospital treatment was really warranted and not just a bit of particularly bad luck (edit - just seen in the follow up that this is certainly the case), it does sound like the dog doesn't know its boundaries. Not blaming anyone, but it should be snapping at an annoying kid, not hospitalising them. I can understand fully why you might be reluctant to keep it.
This happened to us when my kids were small and more recently with my brother-in-law. Both times the dogs in question were very loving.
With us I saw one of my boys (about 3 years old) practically jump on the dog when she was asleep and the dog snapped and caught him on the nose. Absolutely no way to blame the dog. Never had another incident (she lived until she was 17 so about 12 years later).
My nephew had a bite that also needed hospital treatment but no-one was in the room when it happened. When everything calmed down in the house before they went to hospital he asked if he could apologise to the dog and it turns out he had tried to sit on her when she was asleep.
Getting rid of the dog is not always the correct course of action.
OP, not sure if I should really say this, seems insensitive, but if you finally determine that the dog is moving out we’d gladly give him a home. Hope once the dust has settled you find a way of keeping him.
I dont think the kid was bashing the dog or violently mistreating it
Have you got a spycam in the OPs house? If the OP doesn't know what happened, how can you possibly have any idea?
There is a lot of certainty posted in this thread where even the OP doesn’t know what happened.
The only real known is that the dog hurt someone, badly. When it happened my my dog, I couldn’t live with the risk that someone else might get hurt, and I wasn’t prepared to pass it that risk on to someone else so I made the hardest call and had him put down. Still miss him but I’d don’t regret the decision.
We have a 4 yr old collie/lab cross. He is a wonderful friendly dog, all the family play, walk and totally love him. However he is sensitive to small children that want to get too close and or "cuddle him"
He first tries to move away, or leave the room. If he gets pinned into a corner then he gently rumbles a growl and eventually if they dont leave him alone he will show a little more "im unhappy" behavior.
If they still dont leave him im sure eventually he would nip or give a little bite to make his point.
He cant really do much else as his paws dont work like hands.
Because of this going against his normal loveliness we asked a dog behaviourist to come and examine him, her words were pretty much what do you expect him to do?
We just make sure to watch when little kids are around him and make sure he can get his own space if he wants to.
And if he does nip an adult that gets too close and ignores his warnings then tough shit!
Define ‘pushed too far’ because this is a 6(?) yr old and its unlikely he ‘pushed the dog too far’ as that implies a violent behaviour towards the dog, more like the kid was cuddling or such, which by any rational isn’t pushing anything too far.
Our greyhound had a go at our daughter in a very similar way, he had been lying down and she was scratching him then gave an open mouth warning shot. No real damage fortunately for both of them but we were similarly concerned until she admitted she was scratching the side of his sheath and he had given several low growls before. Lesson learned, both have been fine together since.
Having seen my folks dogs that's how they tell each other to sod off, only they have the luxury of a pelt to take the blow. Dogs have hard heads and incredibly strong necks so it doesn't surprise me that sort of injury could occur.
So yes, that's an awful injury and no, it's not something that should happen but I don't think it's remotely as malicious as some of you are making it out to be. Stop trying to humanise the dog, it doesn't have the same emotional restraint as you or I. At the end of the day if the dig had actually attacked we wouldn't be having this conversation.
OP, you obviously have a lot to think about but it sounds like you are being sensible. Speak to your behavioural guy and see what they say, I don't think you're going to be able to filter much off of here amongst the noise. Best of luck and I hope your son heals quick.
There are plenty dogs out there that are bulletproof with kids. We may have been lucky that in 45 plus years of having dogs we have never had a dog do so much as bare a tooth in anger at any of the multitude of brothers, sisters, nieces and nephew’s etc. Maybe we have been lucky, I suspect the dogs were shit scared of my old man. He was definitely in charge and the dogs new it. At the merest hint of aggression they were metaphorically stamped on and knew it was not tolerated. This may sound harsh in modern times but seemed effective. He doted on every dog we’ve had and boy they adored him. He could house train a dog in a day. It was a bit harsh but I’ve known the dog jump up and even open the door! May be best to rehome him with a family with older kids. Wish your son a speedy recovery.
I didn't want to bring that bit up but my dogs were severely reprimanded for showing aggression early on and I've never had a problem.
Awful situation for the OP - and not something any of us as by standers can make a decision on. All I would say is that the dog will now not be bottom of the pack as your son will naturally be very nervous of the dog. Straight away your son needs to reaffirm his position in the pack, but not wind the dog up.
Whilst our dog was a pup we looked at our son as being dangerous to our dog, and our dog being dangerous to us and our son. Now our dog is a bit older and understands the hierarchy and our son is not being daft with her we feel 99% comfortable.
I will do the knee jerk response to info provided.
Sounds like you do not control your son enough. We saw behaviour in our son that provoked our dog, so we stopped him doing it and made it pretty clear to him that if he kept proving her she would most likely bite him and then we would have to have her put down. He soon stopped.
If we see our dog portraying any symptoms of her status in the pack ie trying to get between our son and us on the sofa, we get him to get her down. When she was younger occasionally she would growl at him, or even lunge at him mouth open and nip him. (rare occasions) We always let him discipline her ie shut her in another room, discipline her including a smack. The dog has to know their place in the pack. Do you have strong discipline of your son and dog in the house (and that does not mean physical control)
My kid used to annoy the dog when we first got her, he was 5 or 6. She "yapped" at him a few times and we always told the dog off and explained to him. Dog knew her place, so we could trust 100%, and wouldn't (have) want(ed) it any other way
Do you have strong discipline of your son and dog in the house (and that does not mean physical control)
Yes. The dog is well behaved, and knows his place, he's submissive and obidient, but always friendly with a wagging tail. His tail causes carnage, clearing the coffee table as he walks past happily wagging! My son... we're strict with our kids, in the normal sense. But they have much firmer rules than my Sister's kids. I think we're on the firmer end of the scale as opposed to lax. But he is 6 year old boy, it's very hard to get him to do what you want, it happens eventually, but f** me!!
I had a terrible night sleep. Still split on what to do. My wife believes we can keep him and is going to buy stair gates to create zones to ensure separation. I had a call back from The Dogs Trust, they recommended the same thing, stair gates and monitoring/noting the dog's behvaiour (any signs of growling etc). But said they'd be happy to take him from us.
We did discuss it as a family, seemed fair rather than just taking him. I'm the only one who is considering getting rid. And I'm the one closest to the dog.
But, The dog and the boy seem totally unchanged by it, in that neither of them are different with each other. This morning the boy was sat on the floor next to me. Dog trotts over to him, head on his lap and rolls upside down for belly rubs.
I do think they're both fine with each other, and it was a one off. But there's a large part of me that questions it all.
TBH I would probably slide into a dark place if I lost the dog, sh1tty timing with everything going on! I'm going to think on it.
To the OP, I hope your son recovers well and you manage to work things out with Buddy whichever decision you make.
There is a heck of a lot of outdated thinking on this thread regarding Alpha dogs and pack behaviour which has been pretty much debunked in recent years. In fact, the Professor who coined the term "Alpha" in regards to wolf packs has retracted it himself in recent years.
Talk of not letting dogs on the sofa because it elevates their pack status is nonsense. Mine get to lounge on the sofa quite happily (on my say so), because they are social animals and enjoy the company and contact. I don't think two dogs lying on their backs legs akimbo i.e. completely submissive and at their most vulnerable, is in any way challenging me or my kids status.
I may be wrong, but it reads to my like lots still advocate basically putting a dog in its place rather than properly training them through positive reinforcement, or removing them from any situation where the behaviour is unwanted.
FWIW my kids are big enough now and know how to handle the dogs, but when they were younger the kids and dogs were very seldom left unattended. Not because I didn't trust the dogs....
Stop trying to humanise the dog, it doesn’t have the same emotional restraint as you or I. At the end of the day if the dig had actually attacked we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Good point. The dog has bitten once, enough to get the child to stop whatever it was doing. Given the relative strengths and teeth if the dog had really wanted to do damage it would have done far more, sounds like one attempt to get the child to stop and a case of 'doesn't know his own strength '
Has your son opened up to what happened before hand?
May have been an accident, stood on the dogs tail, tripped and fallen on the dog or disturbed it whilst asleep.
Ours sometimes goes from a deep sleep where there's muffled barks and twitching legs (must be a good dream) to barking and darting around like someone's knocked at the door (they haven't) I'm guessing something in the dream triggers him, doesn't half make us jump when he does it 😁 he looks confused too when it happens
@kid.a - I don't like dogs. I especially don't like aggressive dogs. I don't think people should own them, and if they do I don't think they should be allowed to take them out in public.
I don't think your dog is an aggressive. Your son provoked it despite being told not to and I think he's now learnt the consequences. Any animal - including humans - would react the same way eventually. If the dog's an important part of your family then I'd not let it go unless it happened again and without provocation.
@flicker no not fully, but enough for us to get the gist of it.. apparently there was growling beforehand he said. AND he was very apologetic instantly rather than being concerned about his face.
But we're still mindful he's only a boy. And he's our primary concern
TBH I would probably slide into a dark place if I lost the dog, sh1tty timing with everything going on! I’m going to think on it.
how about if it happened again.
I had a big lab when I was six, used to wrestle and soft bite all the time (only child in the countryside, dog was basically my surrogate friend for years), the only time I picked up proper injuries was when it swung it's heavy head from side to side with an open mouth. It wasn't an aggressive move but by christ it hurt when you caught a canine tooth on the chin.
@kid.a for me he wouldn't need to say any more, he knows what the warning sounds like and the consequence of ignoring it. He knows he was wrong and hasn't tried to blame the dog for any of it, sounds like a good kid.
Talk of not letting dogs on the sofa because it elevates their pack status is nonsense. Mine get to lounge on the sofa quite happily (on my say so), because they are social animals and enjoy the company and contact. I don’t think two dogs lying on their backs legs akimbo i.e. completely submissive and at their most vulnerable, is in any way challenging me or my kids status.
I may be wrong, but it reads to my like lots still advocate basically putting a dog in its place rather than properly training them through positive reinforcement, or removing them from any situation where the behaviour is unwanted.
Its not that black and white.
Our dog has always been allowed up on the sofa. However bad behaviour is not. eg Our son would be sat next to Mrs FD giving him a cuddle. Dog would get jealous so she knew our son would get straight off the sofa in an instant if she got a bit nippy at him (not even biting just get slightly playful/aggressive). That is not acceptable in any shape or form so she would be taken out of the room. it continued until he was brave enough himself to confront her and stop her doing it.
Of course positive reinforcement is the way to go, but some behaviour is just not acceptable and cannot be altered by positive reinforcement. The first few times she got up on the sofa and just sat with our son rather than trying to get him off she got massive praise.
Its not that black and white.
Our dog has always been allowed up on the sofa. However bad behaviour is not. eg Our son would be sat next to Mrs FD giving him a cuddle. Dog would get jealous so she knew our son would get straight off the sofa in an instant if she got a bit nippy at him (not even biting just get slightly playful/aggressive). That is not acceptable in any shape or form so she would be taken out of the room. it continued until he was brave enough himself to confront her and stop her doing it.
Of course positive reinforcement is the way to go, but some behaviour is just not acceptable and cannot be altered by positive reinforcement. The first few times she got up on the sofa and just sat with our son rather than trying to get him off she got massive praise.
No, it's not always black and white and positive reinforcement is not used for unwanted behaviour. I also said...
or removing them from any situation where the behaviour is unwanted.
Which sounds like exactly what you did. It's two sides of the same coin. Reward good behaviour and remove from situations showing undesired behaviour until they learn there is no benefit in doing it.
Anyway, don't want to derail thread any further.
Personally I’d speak to a dog behaviourist both about dog behaviour and also the severity of the bite. Find out if this genuinely was a pretty savage bite or just a warning nip - but by a fairly sizeable dog so more damaging than a smaller dog.
We have a 4 year old daughter and a 5 year old cavachon so I feel your pain / know what it’s like. Eva can be quite boisterous with the dog regardless of warnings - but she loves Molly. The dog loves bubbles so Eva has taken to blowing bubbles for her even.
That said, dogs can be quite complicated - when we first had Eva the dog was used to having no kids around and no screaming baby etc. For the first few months the dog took to chewing stuff up (skirting boards / her toys etc) and being a bit naughty frankly which wasn’t like her at all. We had a few sessions with a dog behaviourist and she immediately identified the dog was stressed out by the addition to the house. Simple things like a rawhide bone with chicken round it every night introduced to her routine (to relax), and making sure she knew she was a dog rather than a human really helped. Within a month or so she was back to her normal happy doggy self.
I’d highly recommend reading In Defence Of Dogs. A great book to help in understanding how they see and interact with the world. Written by a bunch of scientists who actually know what they’re talking about and debunks all the pack stuff.
This might be a controversial view but I don't think 'at any sign of aggression' severely reprimanding the dog is correct.
Dogs are smart, and learn. Yes you have to set boundaries and deal with the cause - if a dog was to eg: steal food or clothes and growl to say they're not giving it back then it does need to be stopped because you don't want them stealing things and refusing to give them back.
If they've got a 6 year old constantly in their face then a warning that it's gone too far is healthy, you need the kid to understand and respect. Of course, you want the dog to have infinite patience with annoying 6 year olds, but that's unrealistic, eventually I reckon pretty well every dog could be provoked enough.
A warning growl meaning 'that's enough, I'm getting a bit pissed off now' is I think a good thing. The dog has to have a means of escalating too, if you remove that from them I think there's a risk that you no longer get any warning until one day the dog triggers and goes mediaeval on yo' ass with no prior sign.
You have my sympathies OP. I think you've done the right thing for taking stock and not rushing to any decision. Until you know what exactly happened, it's not easy to decide what to do. Have you told your son you are thinking of getting rid of the dog? Yes, it will be traumatic for him to hear that but you might then get the full picture from him as to what actually happened. I'm sure he's worried he'll be in more trouble but you need to know...
We've handed out beloved gorgeous dog over to The Dogs Trust.
I'm in bits guys. How's this dog affecting me so much.
Monitored son and dog over the next couple days. Son shows absolutely no signs of having learnt from the whole horrific saga. In fact he's dancing around in his face etc, you know just annoying him. We explained and threatened to no avail. It's not that we're not disciplining him.
Talked it over a lot with wife. We both agree, we can't rule out the dog snapping at him again. The dog may have learned now, bite as it works with the annoying little one.
I had a lot of discussion with close friends and family. And in the end that didn't help. The decision was still mine/ours to be made.
Anyway, thanks for listening, and chatting. I'm just off the cry again.
@kid.a - I know exactly how you feel having gone through this. We still miss our greyhound even though it was 7 years ago now.
But honestly, I think you've done the right thing. The 'what if' would never go away and hard though this it would be even harder if it happened again with worse consequences.
Best wishes buddy. A really hard decision, but the right one.
Really sad to hear but I guess it’s the best thing you could have done, if only because it’s harder to give up a child for adoption than a dog.
Chin up, the pain will fade over time and I’m sure the dog will find a happy home.
I suspect Dogs Trust will not place him with a home that has children so he’ll nothave to face the same situation again.