[Closed] Muslims offended again

[i]People who describe our armed forces as representing or fighting on behalf of the white middle aged men are hypocrites. [/i]

I am a white middle aged western european man.

I think that British soldiers are doing more to protect my way of life than they are anyone elses on this planet and particularly in the areas they fight and die in.

What bothers me is that the actions they take are 'sold' to them as 'liberation' and 'protecting freedom'. As far as I can see recent wars have liberated very few and only protected my freedom of access to oil.

It may not be palatable but as you say, it's the truth.

I don't resent our armed forces and I'm grateful for what they do but any politician who dresses up as anything other than protecting their own voters (see Thatcher/Falklands comments above) is usually deluded and/or lying.

The only times in recent years that I can see imposed force achieving a lasting peace is in the Balkans and that was after a lamentable lack of action on the part of their immediate neighbours and co-operation in genocide by some Nato forces.

My comments were in specific response to a comment about Muslims in the armed forces - maybe, as a group, British Muslims are less keen to go and fight on foreign soil, or they see other life opportunities available to them, or fear institutionalised racism/descrimination or any number of other reasons. I don;t think it makes them less British as a result.

[i]If[/i] they were so offended by a tiny little dog why did they not refuse to take part in the opening ceremony on religious grounds until a suitable replacement was found i.e. a cute little kitten, snake, gerbil or whatever doesn't offend them.
Did Mohammed have a pet they could have used and put a tartan scarf on just so they could get with the spirit of the event.

Piss off you idiot comes to mind.

Its rather ironic/tragic the levels of two finger and ignorance folk want to show to other cultures.
A little bit of tolerance and some gentle understanding is no bad thing.

better jokes would help as well

Were the musicians offended by John Barrowman?

Why weren't the muslims offended when John Barrowman kissed the guy during the opening ceremony. Is this not seen as sinful by their teachings.

@ Hora...so you think that there wasnt a massive show of british muslims publicly condemning/demonstrating at the horror of 7/7, and that this meant they didnt care?
i believe the muslim council spoke for the majority of the british muslim community when they openly condemned 7/7...who else did you need from the muslim community to do this?
in the aftermath of 7/7 the muslim condemnation of the atrocity went largely unreported as the greater emphasis was placed on the investigation of the bombings and the on the victims who perished and quite rightly so
i remember in the aftermath of 7/7 i was on a uni course through work and had to regulalry catch a bus into manchester...the number of passengers who gave me dirty looks or looked at me with open suspicion was shocking because i was a british asian muslim and had a rucksack...it made me feel very insecure about how i was perceived by them but i could understand where they were coming from
but i ahd no axe to grind with them but i did with the those stupid asshats who killed all those innocent people on that fateful day simply because they had been brainwashed with a warped interpretation of islam.
they did not do it in the name of islam.

but but anyway, back to the issue of the dog....as a muslim i have no problem with dogs...the problem is down to interpretation...there is nothing in the Quran that says you are strictly forbidden from keeping or coming into contact with a dog...but its saliva is seen as unclean therefore you should avoid contact with this
the Quran says that you should not keep a dog unless it is kept for guarding livestock, hunting or farming (i.e. herding) duties
in a more modern context i think there an exception can be made for dogs that assist those who are not able bodied i.e. guide dogs
you can keep a dog but in doing so your good deeds are reduced on a daily basis for the lifetime of the dog ownership and if you choose to keep one it must not be allowed to share the same space as humans

i think the issue here is that there are individuals on both sides who are over sensationalising the issue and trying to create a mountain out of a molehill

Nobody actually watches the opening ceremony, you fool!

hora - Member

Which of these have consistently been in the news for the wrong reasons?

What, all 1.57 billion of them? Way to tar a quarter of the world's population with the same brush.

In related news, all cyclists jump red lights. It was in the papers. But where are the marches of cyclists supporting the british flag?

I don't really get how you're not happy having the council speak for UK muslims, apparently that doesn't count. But one excitable shouty chap who's got the basic facts completely wrong, he's a man to listen to, because he was in the papers today.

The problem is he who shouts the most gets noticed the most. Lots of Muslims have dogs around where I work . Some drink some even deal drugs.
Just like any other group you get the folk with a twisted view of faith they tend to be nut jobs and they shout the most.

When in Rome.

If I go abroad I respect the locals and there customs as long as it's not barbaric (bull fighting springs to mind).
I'm getting fed up with how religious books are being interpreted 'I think what God means in chapter 5' ect ect repeat until its twisted.

My religion was replaced by faith a long time ago. It's all a bit Meh and the sooner the rest of world stops acting in God's name the better. He's been very quiet for the last few thousand years maybe he retired by the coast

[quote=gonzy ]
i believe the muslim council spoke for the majority of the british muslim community when they openly condemned 7/7...who else did you need from the muslim community to do this?

Hora's expectation...

Surely the title of this thread should be "Telegraph readers offended by puffball story".

"Iraq was a mistake but what about Kuwait back in the early 90's?"

Yeah, that was such a moment to shine: having spent most of the 1980s selling arms to Iraq, Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, the UK spent a vast amount of money and sent people to die to "liberate" Kuwait. In other words, in a battle between an autocratic Muslim extremist despot in their battle and a degenerate socialist dictatorship for control of unearned oil wealth, the UK chose the former, and "liberation" meant reinstating Shariah law and consolidating the subjugation of women.

brainwashed with a warped interpretation of islam.
they did not do it in the name of islam.

I hear this alot about a lot of things that Islam does.

Seems to me that this is the main problem with religions of all types, people mould what the magic book says to happily coincide with all the stuff they believe, like hating gays, shitting on women and generally being arseholes.

Media blow minor grumble into muslims causing trouble again shocker.

TBH, the whole religious book debacle could have been circumvented if the commandments (ten or otherwise) were simplified to "don't be a dick"

Were the musicians offended by John Barrowman?

He has a solid background in musical theatre, so whatever you think about the man - there's no denying he can carry a tune.

Hora's expectation....

he would be upset at the way they parked in his street though when they visited so you they just cannot win

The problem is he who shouts the most gets noticed the most.

John Barrowman kissed the guy

Gays AND Dogs

Woofters !!

Woofters everywhere !!!

This opening ceremony sound like a bad Miley Cyrus video

Ro5ey - Member

Woofters !!

😆

Seems to me that this is the main problem with religions of all types, people mould what the magic book says to happily coincide with all the stuff they believe, like hating gays, shitting on women and generally being arseholes.

true...you get this from pretty much every religion...not just Islam

What, all 1.57 billion of them? Way to tar a quarter of the world's population with the same brush.

Lets see from the stabber-seperatists in China, which way would you like to go next? Chechnya, the mess there and those who blow up bombs on Moscow underground, India - Christians killed, onto Africa young girls kidnapped and forceably converted?

At least free Syrian Army and ISIS are fighting ARMED men I guess not unarmed civilians. 😉

At least the fair-minded British never once butchered people who couldn't fight back eh?

[i]ISIS are fighting ARMED men [/i]

they stoned two women to death last week.

they have slaughtered hundreds of prisoners and forced any Christian they meet to convert to Islam.

other than that I expect they're following all the Geneva Conventions with regard to armed conflict.

you think that there wasnt a massive show of british muslims publicly condemning/demonstrating at the horror of 7/7

Null point - they had no choice.

Guardian yesterday, Torygraoh today. Will the thread end the same way?

Each way on - yes page 5

hora - Member

Lets see from the stabber-seperatists in China, which way would you like to go next? Chechnya, the mess there and those who blow up bombs on Moscow underground, India - Christians killed, onto Africa young girls kidnapped and forceably converted?

You're right, that [i]is[/i] all 1.57 billion.

[img] [/img]

Who is this offending?

The Scots obviously - they called the dog Jock.

The typeface nazis.

Religionist gets offended by something irrelevant due to barmy belief system.

Waa waa waa waa...

Chechnya, the mess there and those who blow up bombs on Moscow underground

I do think that currently Islam is more prone to violent political interpretations that other religions. After all this was a religion that was initially spread via colonial expansion.

However, I have a lot of Iraqi, Kurdish, Syria and Iranian friends who are either moderates or all out unbelievers. I will go into more detail about this in another post later tonight but most of them seem more sympathetic to the west than their western brothers. For example, the Iraqis don't blame the Americans for the current mess in Iraq but pin the blame squarely on Saudi Arabia. Isis are seen as foreigners.

What I find interesting is that I've had plenty of foreign Muslim friends and no British Muslim friends, not one and the times I have talked to them it has seemed that their opinions about the middle east are widely different to their brothers actually living there.

Can't be bothered to read the whole thread as I'm sure its full of the usual Daily Fail rants and Guardianista counter-attacks.

I'll just stick to the semantics;

'Muslims offended again'

'Christians offended again'

'Motorists offended again'

'World revolves on its axis again'

'It's raining in England again'

'I failed to win the lottery again'

'Dog curls out a turd in park again'

Continue ad nauseam..........

Who is this offending?

Null point - they had no choice.

you mean like the jewish community in the wake of what's going on in Gaza? but oh, hang on they havent openly condemned it have they? instead they've tried to justify the killing of women and children by claiming its their right to defend themselves...but thats a topic for another thread on here..but hopefully you get my drift

it was condemned because it was wrong and went against the teachings of Islam...what else did you expect the british muslim community to say? well done?!

If our troops serve big business or the political classes (which I do not believe they do, although they may have done in part for example protecting oil supplies) it's your demands and needs they are ultimately fulfilling, your need to be on the web, using energy produced in a power station, to drive a car etc etc. You can be a lilly white, tree hugging, swamp lover but your still one of us and they fight and die so indirectly you can make a crappy comment about how stupid they are to do it on a mountain bike forum.

Our military are merely an extension of economic policy. "Protecting our interests" as they say. As for our demands, who created those? The very organisations that want to sell the stuff to us, who are virtually part of Governments who in turn send in the military to "protect our interests".

Our addictions are causing this.

We have history, but we don't learn the right lessons from it. We used to have kings leading us into battle, with his knights, barons, and finally the foot soldier at the bottom, War won and who benefited? The king, the knights and barons who got a share of the spoils, and the soldiers, whoever lived, went home and nothing changed for them.

Today, we have political leaders sending us into battle, the soldiers who win it, and the corporations who get the spoils. All we get told to do is to consume as this is your only use.

So in short, yes our military are in service big business and the political classes, as much as us civilians as consumers are.

I will go into more detail about this in another post later tonight

All we get told to do is to consume as this is your only use

The meaning of life right there.

Live quietly, and buy stuff.

Be careful of the Muslamic ray guns people.

I think we should give each team member their own dog to walk as part of the closing ceremony, and a shit bag that they purposely don't use.

Crazy religious loons and headline hunting politicians are highly entertaining and every opportunity to offend them should be utilised, starting with Keith Vaz the mango crusader.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/26/polls.july7

Doesn't really support Horas assertion. Are there any newer polls? The problem with shooty violent people who want to die for a cause is that they usually punch far above their own weight. The actions of a select few nutters screaming at the top of their voices can often seem to many, to be the voice of a whole race. Unfortunately it's not only Christians who end up thinking that but impressionable young Muslims as well.

Ah, the old religion augment!

They tell you "There's no stronger force to bring people together than religion." but they should say "There's no stronger force to drive a wedge between two groups of people, and cause a war, than religion!"

They should ban the lot....

scandal42 - Member
Keith Vaz the mango crusader.

I hope that's not intentional, but you should read up on the history of the Mango Crusades because it could be considered very offensive to call someone that!

Would we all be speak German

well, Germany lost the war, and I don't think they all speak English, so there's your answer.

as an asisde, would speaking german be such a terrible thing, it's just a way of communicating with one another isn't it? and you could fluently order Bratwurst in [s]Germany[/s] The Motherland on your holidays. Double WIN.

Organised religion is dog sh*t, it has no place in today's society, just teach people not to be c**ts to each other....parents should be doing this, teachers should be reinforcing it at school....there is no need for 'religious leaders' having to teach this but with their own agendas and biases thrown in for good measure.

well, Germany lost the war, and I don't think they all speak English, so there's your answer.

We weren't the aggressive, conquering and domineering far superior Ayran race who was looking to rule the earth for a thousand years. We were the blokes (and ladies) with our backs to the wall for 6years. We were war weary and just wanted it over so we could de-mob?

Thankfully for Germany and Japan both the UK and US wanted to build a better place for them (to stop the red threat of Junky) 😉

Doesn't really support Horas assertion. Are there any newer polls? The problem with shooty violent people who want to die for a cause is that they usually punch far above their own weight. The actions of a select few nutters screaming at the top of their voices can often seem to many, to be the voice of a whole race. Unfortunately it's not only Christians who end up thinking that but impressionable young Muslims as well

It's not a few nutters it is millions of people. 1.5 billion muslims X 5% nutters = Lots of nutters. Nutters who are in contact via the web and share a common ethos wherever they are living and no, they don't want to die for a cause they want someone else do die. The Saudi State for example is a scary islamic nightmare place where 13 century ethics sit alongside 21st century arms.
The rise of global Islam is a proper, real and serious problem as even moderate islam endorses the basic tennets of the radicals and that embiggens (I know) their ambitions.

The meaning of life right there.

Live quietly,[b] and buy stuff.[/b]

Which is really rather ironic

As all religions will teach against this

But carry on boys ... the path of enlightenment is N+1 Bike/stereo/TV/whatever

You're right in a way jools and there is a lot of variation in the support for terrorism.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/05/23/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world/

I will go into more detail about this in another post later tonight

A thread on this subject, and you think it will still be available to post on by tonight? You're optimistic..

The Saudi State for example is a scary islamic nightmare place where 13 century ethics sit alongside 21st century arms.

What worries me is destroying ancient sites, places of architectural and historic Islamic interest (in Syria, Iraq etc etc). In with this is Saudi sponsoring new versions ('updates') of the Koran inserting text and changing meaning. Wahhabists espouse destroying history. If you have no history and/or its been rewritten what does the future start to hold?

Citations required? Heres one link. Easy to find more. In one notable example it states enemies: 'Israel'.

http://www.islamicpluralism.org/1091/rewriting-quran

The rise of global Islam is a proper, real and serious problem

EDIT:

is Saudi sponsoring new versions ('updates') of the Koran inserting text and changing meaning.

At least she didn't have a pet dog...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28564984

1.5 billion muslims X 5% nutters

can you provide a link to that 'fact' please.

otherwise I'm going to ignore your assertion that 75 Million Muslims are terrorists.

5 percent in the UK think attacks against civilians justified, or something.

I hope that's not intentional, but you should read up on the history of the Mango Crusades because it could be considered very offensive to call someone that!

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Vaz-seeks-end-mango-ban/story-21169207-detail/story.html

As for the incidents you speak of, 'Mango Crusades' is hardly a widely used description.

5 percent in the UK think attacks against civilians justified, or something.

Whereas in Israel a reported 97% of the population think that attacks against civilians is justified. Yay religion!

I cant help but think the UK was wrong in rejecting Germany's advances to be allies during WW2, Hitler respected the UK and wanted it....our politicians rejected it.
An alliance with Germany would've made us unstoppable in Europe (perhaps the world?)...the UK could've turned a blind eye to the ethnic cleansing that the Nazis were carrying out and Europe would look a lot different now, no outsiders causing problems, no Gypsies etc etc, a proper Europe for Europeans not any old Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to come here.

The benefit of hindsight eh?

5 percent in the UK think attacks against civilians justified, or something.

or something? really? or what? 0.5% 0.05%?

It's a generally accepted stat that between 5% and 15% of muslims globally can be described as having fundamentalist beliefs, I low balled it. The studies are easily available all over the web especially when Kaspersky isn't blocking all the bloody sites.

It's a generally accepted stat that between 5% and 15% of muslims globally can be described as having fundamentalist beliefs, I low balled it. The studies are easily available all over the web especially when Kaspersky isn't blocking all the bloody sites.

Accepted by who?

Was the research process similar to Family Fortunes?

Being 'offended' is a way of making yourself a victim. Then you 'retaliate' and you are not responsible for your actions but someone else is since you are a victim. This rhetorical sleight of hand is used in all conflicts and currently it seems that Hamas is making the victim IDF bomb the hell out of Gaza including UN schools full of civilians.
Taking offence is a simple way of abdicating responsibility for your own aggressive behaviour. If people were really offended then perhaps they would be happier living under regimes which perpetuate their particular beliefs. (unlikely) Or is it a way of trying to reshape the culture of a country to an Islamic model?(more likely)

Accepted by various governmental, independent research and thinktank types but yes that's right they asked 100 members of the public how many muslim fundies there probably 🙄 are.

I'm also not going to rise to your strawman comment re terrorists.

Even if we accept your "accepted" figure, it's a big jump further to declare all religious fundamentalists "nutters" as you have. But considering there isn't even an accepted definition of what makes a fundamentalist it's hard to see how you can put any sensible number on it

you mean like the jewish community in the wake of what's going on in Gaza?

Er, no.

[i]between 5% and 15% of muslims globally can be described as having fundamentalist beliefs[/i]

I expect a similar number of Christians could be described like that. They don't necessarily support acts of terrorism or killing though?

Accepted by various governmental, independent research and thinktank types but yes that's right they asked 100 members of the public how many muslim fundies there probably are.

come on then, 1 link. 1 government link.

considering there isn't even an accepted definition of what makes a fundamentalist it's hard to see how you can put any sensible number on it

Even if we accept your "accepted" figure, it's a big jump further to declare all religious fundamentalists "nutters" as you have.

Why? If you believe in and live your life based on a set of supernatural beliefs without a shred of evidence and those beliefs infact inform some questionable(at best)moral decisions I'd say you were, in fact, a nutter.

Saudi Arabia is a [i]State[/i] of 28 million people who observe strict(fundamental)islamic beliefs, I need to find another 30 million or so people globally that fit the same bill, do I really have to do the maths for you.

Do you really not accept that there are 75 million islamic people who at a fundamental level want their version of the truth to be adopted worldwide? Find out how many muslims are Salafists and it gives you an idea of the numbers of really serious nutters.

I'm not being alarmist just working through the numbers.

36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared with 19% of over-55s

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6309983.stm

Sounds pretty fundamentalist to me. People can believe what they want but death for rejecting a religion?

Saudi Arabia is a State of 28 million people

... which needs to employ a substantial police force to ensure its population is being Islamic enough and not (for example) driving while female, in an annoyingly 19th century way.

I don't think simply totalling up entire countries' populations is a remotely credible approach to working out how many insane Muslims there are in the world.

Whereas in Israel a reported 97% of the population think that attacks against civilians is justified. Yay religion!

I doubt 97 percent think that attacks with the specific aim of killing civilians is as high as 97 percent, although I would imagine it would be closer to the numbers that think so in other middle eastern countries as opposed to the number of British muslims who do. War probably increases people's apathy towards civilian deaths.

[img] [/img]

From my links.

... which needs to employ a substantial police force to ensure its population is being Islamic enough and not (for example) driving while female, in an annoyingly 19th century way

OK there are about 2000 muslim fundamentalists worldwide and it's not a problem, my mistake.

If the M'lims are not fighting other religions then they fighting amongst other Islamic sects.

They are pain in the backside and will not integrate and now flying Gaza flags outside their houses in my street.

it's a big jump further to declare all religious fundamentalists "nutters" as you have.

Sorry, I'm confused. Could you give me an example of some religious fundamentalists who aren't nutters please? I'm not overly sure which demographic you're referring to here.

Joolsburger you sound like a bit of a fundamantalist nutjob yourself the way your trying to push your viewpoint down everones throats. By the way when was the last time a muslim confronted you in person and tried to indoctrinate you ?

Joolsburger you sound like a bit of a fundamantalist nutjob yourself the way your trying to push your viewpoint down everones throats. By the way when was the last time a muslim confronted you in person and tried to indoctrinate you ?

Last time I was on the street in Oxford. But hey, let's keep the debate revolving around emotional attacks by both sides. Instead of reasoned debate and thought with you know.... some facts thrown in and relevant articles used as references.

Meh

On a side note, what do people think of the new wave of Islamic neo-colonial intentions from so called moderates such as Erdogan? Who has stated that Thessaloniki belongs to Turkey, a man who has also been stirring up trouble among the Turkish populations of Vienna and Germany? And the increasingly vocal supporters for the cause of 'occupied moorish territory' lol.

I have no idea what has been posted but this made me chuckle : "Muslims offended again" then in the Daily Telegraph article this :

[i]A Glasgow 2014 spokesman said: "Glasgow 2014 have received no complaints from the Commonwealth Games Associations of the competing nations and territories following the Opening Ceremony." [/i]

So "Muslims offended again" turns out according to the Daily Telegraph to be two individuals in Malaysia.

And for balance here's two individuals who shame the West :

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

How long has Ian Hislop been in the police?

No idea. Since they scrapped minimum height requirement ?