[Closed] "Muslim" terrorists attack French magazine in Paris

Junkyard - even a leftie hand wringer like you cannot possibly argue that a woman is equal to a man under Sharia? Please go ahead and try!

Are women equal to men in the Beth Din courts we already have in this country?

I have no time for the idea of Sharia law in this country BTW - however, those assuming that it necessarily implies chopping off hands etc are getting it wrong, again. Unsurprisingly, there are many different interpretations and versions of Sharia law.

I don't particularly like the idea of any of them, but I know very little about them. I suspect I know more than most of the people getting outraged about them though.

gobuchul Don't you recognise a rhetorical question.

Crying political correctness gone mad is the weak tactic most frequently used by bigots to try and claim that they aren't allowed to be bigots.

Who mentioned political correctness?...i'm in favour of anybody saying anything they like, i was brought up to believe that 'sticks and stones....'

The problem i have is that people get far too shirty about mere words, the screams of racist if somebody wants to talk about immigration etc are boring and childish...free speech has to work in every direction or its no longer free speech, you cant just have free speech (but only if it suits the law makers and political elite of the time)....its either all or nothing.

There is a famous phrase which sums up my feelings:

Although i may despise what you have to say, i would defend to the death your right to say it.

....thats all i want, a country where that is always the case.

Thankfully this country is still like that but there are plenty of places around the world where it isnt....and what i dont want is a religious doctrine, or an ethnic group, or immigrants (of any colour) from places like that who would wish to stifle debate and restrict free speech because it 'offends' them...or some fictitious fairy in the clouds they believe in.

Really religion has no place in the modern world anymore.

The idea of areas of the country where a "special" version of the law exists is reprehensible.

As a Muslim born and bred in this country Ime really puzzled about this sharia law claim.please elaborate and give examples of sharia law active in the UK.

Are women equal to men in the Beth Din courts we already have in this country?

I doubt it. However, I am certain that it is not as cut and dried as 2 to 1 as it is with Sharia.

gobuchul Don't you recognise a rhetorical question.

Yes and that wasn't one.

The problem i have is that people get far too shirty about mere words, the screams of racist if somebody wants to talk about immigration etc are boring and childish...free speech has to work in every direction or its no longer free speech, you cant just have free speech (but only if it suits the law makers and political elite of the time)....its either all or nothing.

Does free speech not extend to calling people racists if you think they are racists? Sounds like you are the one wanting to stifle debate. I don't know if you've noticed but Nigel Farage isn't exactly being 'stifled' right now.

FWIW I think it ought to be possible to have concerns about immigration and religion without being branded racist - it's just unfortunate that lots of the people that do are actual racists or at the very least come out with ignorant bigoted misinformation they've read in the Sun/heard down the pub.

As a Muslim born and bred in this country Ime really puzzled about this sharia law claim.please elaborate and give examples of sharia law active in the UK.

Not sure anyone has claimed they are active - just that many muslims would like them to be.

As a Muslim born and bred in this country Ime really puzzled about this sharia law claim.please elaborate and give examples of sharia law active in the UK.

Officially?....thankfully none exist.

Unofficially?...5 men were arrested and 3 sentenced to prison for patrolling the area of London they lived in and trying to harrass people into behaving in a way they felt was more appropriate, they termed their patrols as Modesty Patrols or some other hogwash...they harrassed people who were holding hands, drinking alcohol, women with flesh uncovered etc....lovely chaps of course, just what i'm sure we'd all like to see going nationwide.

the screams of racist if somebody wants to talk about immigration

Grum you listen to people and you look at media/social media it sounds like we're living in a sharia state. Take it from me the bulk of Muslims don't know what sharia is

Going off topic............

Errrrr...... De Facto, a lot of this country is beyond the effective control of the law, and it is not going to get better soon. You only have to look at how MPs ignore criminal legislation and get away with it, to know that's true, never minding all the ghettos where gun totting teenage gangsters rule, and unarmed British bobbies do not. And all for want of cracking a few heads..... on a discriminating basis of course!

Going back on topic.....

I never was very curious to see a cartoon of a naked Prophet Mohamed. Now I am vaguely curious to see it.....maybe painted on the side of Buckingham Palace.

There is no parallel here as we are not discussing Powell Vs Farage etc. We are on the topic of those using AK47 ... Do you see Powell and Farage using AK47?

Intelligent debate? More like twisted logic that is based on pure hatred of certain politicians. Are you so weak you cannot even handle Farage or the like?

Yes, perhaps I am too simple to express my views differently but am I wrong in my summing up of my views on those?

The parallel was between the posters views and those of Farage.

Farage has nothing really to do with it, I only included him for the above reason. Could you explain the twisted logic or is it just because you clearly don't understand what I was saying?

In my opinion, yes.

De Facto, a lot of this country is beyond the effective control of the law...

Reporting from tribal ****stan?

There's no such thing as unofficial deviant . Ime not saying that there isn't Muslims who make these hogwash claims of course there is. The repatriation of soldiers bodies being abused and claims of flags flying over Downing St , we've all seen the behaviour of those on the fringes but To claim that 40% want sharia law ..nah.

the Christian take on the role of women...

"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

for a bit of balance like

lalazar - Member
As a Muslim born and bred in this country Ime really puzzled about this sharia law claim.please elaborate and give examples of sharia law active in the UK.

I believe there are areas of Luton where there are signs on the lamp posts saying this is a Sharia law zone and is effectively controlled as such.

For those claiming Islam is peaceful I give you some verses. It's in French but I'm sure you can look up the verses in English with the numbers:

a) Appels au meurtre dans le coran :

[2:191] Et tuez-les, où que vous les rencontriez; et chassez-les d’où ils vous on chassés : l’association est plus grave que le meurtre. Mais ne les combattez pas près de la mosquée sacrée avant qu’ils ne vous y aient combattus. S’ils vous y combattent, tuez-les donc. Telle est la rétribution des mécréants.

[4:89] Ils aimeraient vous voir mécréants comme ils ont mécru : alors vous seriez tous égaux ! Ne prenez donc pas d’alliés parmi eux, jusqu’à ce qu’ils émigrent dans le sentier d’Allah. Mais s’ils tournent le dos, saisissez-les alors, et tuez-les où que vous les trouviez ; et ne prenez parmi eux ni allié ni secoureur.

[4:91] Vous en trouverez d’autres qui cherchent à avoir votre confiance, et en même temps la confiance de leur propre tribu. Toutes les fois qu’on les pousse vers l’association (l’idolâtrie) ils y retombent en masse. (Par conséquent,) s’ils ne restent pas neutres à votre égard, ne vous offrent pas la paix et ne retiennent pas leurs mains (de vous combattre), alors, saisissez-les et tuez-les où que vous les trouviez. Contre ceux-ci, Nous vous avons donné une autorité manifeste.

[5:33] La récompense de ceux qui font la guerre contre Allah et Son messager, et qui s’efforcent de semer la corruption sur la terre, c’est qu’ils soient tués, ou crucifiés, ou que soient coupées leur main et leur jambe opposées, ou qu’ils soient expulsés du pays. Ce sera pour eux l’ignominie ici-bas ; et dans l’au-delà, il y aura pour eux un énorme châtiment.

[8:12] Et ton Seigneur révéla aux anges: « Je suis avec vous : affermissez donc les Croyants. Je vais jeter l’effroi dans les coeurs des mécréants. Frappez donc au-dessus des cous (décapitation) et frappez-les sur tous les bouts des doigts.

[8:17] Ce n’est pas vous qui les avez tués : mais c’est Allah qui les a tués. Et lorsque tu lançais (une poignée de terre), ce n’est pas toi qui lançais : mais c’est Allah qui lançait, et ce pour éprouver les croyants d’une belle épreuve de Sa part ! Allah est Audient et Omniscient. Autrement dit c’est l’absolution par avance pour un meurtrier pour peu qu’il tue un infidèle au nom d’Allah.

[9:5] Après que les mois sacrés expirent, tuez les associateurs où que vous les trouviez. Capturez-les, assiégez-les et guettez-les dans toute embuscade. Si ensuite ils se repentent, accomplissent la Salât et acquittent la Zakát, alors laissez-leur la voie libre, car Allah est Pardonneur et Miséricordieux.

[17:33] Et, sauf en droit, ne tuez point la vie qu’Allah a rendu sacrée.
Quiconque est tué injustement, alors Nous avons donné pouvoir à son proche [parent]. Que celui-ci ne commette pas d’excès dans le meurtre, car il est déjà assisté (par la loi). Donc selon le Coran il existe des raisons tout à fait valables, conformes au droit, de tuer.

[33:61] Ce sont des maudits. Où qu’on les trouve, ils seront pris et tués impitoyablement.

[47:4] Lorsque vous rencontrez (au combat) ceux qui ont mécru,frappez-en les cous (décapitation). Puis, quand vous les avez dominés, enchaînez-les solidement. Ensuite, c’est soit la libération gratuite, soit la rançon, jusqu’à ce que la guerre dépose ses fardeaux. Il en est ainsi, car si Allah voulait, Il se vengerait Lui-même contre eux, mais c’est pour vous éprouver les uns par les autres. Et ceux qui seront tués dans le chemin d’Allah, Il ne rendra jamais vaines leurs actions.

b) Haine contre les Juifs, les Chrétiens et les infidèles (dans le coran) :

[5:51] Ô les croyants! Ne prenez pas pour alliés les Juifs et les Chrétiens ; ils sont alliés les uns des autres. Et celui d’entre vous qui les prend pour alliés, devient un des leurs. Allah ne guide certes pas les gens injustes.

[9:30] Les Juifs disent : « Uzayr est fils d’Allah » et les Chrétiens disent : « Le Christ est fils d’Allah ». Telle est leur parole provenant de leurs bouches. Ils imitent le dire des mécréants avant eux. Qu’Allah les anéantisse ! Comment s’écartent-ils (de la vérité) ?

[5:14] Et de ceux qui disent: « Nous sommes Chrétiens », Nous avons pris leur engagement. Mais ils ont oublié une partie de ce qui leur a été rappelé. Nous avons donc suscité entre eux l’inimitié et la haine jusqu’au Jour de la Résurrection. Et Allah les informera de ce qu’ils faisaient.
Source:
Le Coran

Controlled by who mudmuncher ?

If the below link works its what one of my local mosques is putting out in relation to today's attacks in Paris.
http://www.makkahmasjid.co.uk/wp/index.php/2015/01/07/attack-on-french-magazine-staff-condemned-prophet-muhammad-does-not-require-avenging/

For those claiming Islam is peaceful I give you some verses. It's in French but I'm sure you can look up the verses in English with the numbers:

[url= http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html ]yeah Christianity is all about the love[/url]

I believe there are areas of Luton

ie. I've never been or seen it but Barry down the pub told me...

Religious nutjobs Ialazar

....and I would just like to add I have nothing specifically against Muslins. I think all religious people are slightly retarded

Ime sorry mudmuncher but ime with squirrelking. Just that I met a bloke from London up in the north and he was genuinley scared that all mosques were terror training centres not that he'd ever been in a mosque. Talking helps people it breaks down barriers does away with suspicion and its not hard to do.

Not sure anyone has claimed they are active - just that many muslims would like them to be.

Not in my experience...

Dreadful events today in Paris...

A candlelit vigil in [u]Trafalgar[/u] square?

😳

Reports on guardian of three arrests . very quick work if true.

Grum you listen to people and you look at media/social media it sounds like we're living in a sharia state. Take it from me the bulk of Muslims don't know what sharia is

I was basing it on the 40% figure quoted above but I really have no idea how accurate that is.

Talking helps people it breaks down barriers does away with suspicion and its not hard to do.

I've been invited to attend a Sufi Muslim ceremony - should be interesting!

never though edukator was a fervent partisan of la flamme.

squirrelking - Member
I believe there are areas of Luton
ie. I've never been or seen it but Barry down the pub told me...

lalazar - Member
Talking helps people it breaks down barriers does away with suspicion and its not hard to do.

I believe there are areas of Luton where there are signs on the lamp posts saying this is a Sharia law zone and is effectively controlled as such.

Eh?, you're surely taking the piss with a statement like that.

Unofficially?...5 men were arrested and 3 sentenced to prison for patrolling the area of London they lived in and trying to harrass people into behaving in a way they felt was more appropriate, they termed their patrols as Modesty Patrols or some other hogwash...they harrassed people who were holding hands, drinking alcohol, women with flesh uncovered etc....lovely chaps of course, just what i'm sure we'd all like to see going nationwide.

Not the same. Not even close.

You take young men from one of the most deprived parts of London and put them in a situation where they see their future working in the local chicken shop or driving a minicab until the early hours, and then look surprised when they seize on something that provides them with a sense of purpose and belonging - ie, Islam.

Whether it's peaceful Islam or the fundamentalist kill-the-non-believer version is neither here nor there in this example. It's the fact that it provides a tiny oasis of stability in some pretty f*****-up lives.

The more we perceive "us and them" the more likely Sharia law (or derivatives) are likely to slide their way in. Not legally, of course, just existing behind the scenes through the disconnectedness of the different communities.

My 2p, anyway.

Not as depressing as reading about cartoonists being murdered by religious dickheads.

I have a pretty poor opinion of religion in general but don't start picking on one of them, scrap them all or keep them all,don't cherry pick.

Edukator looking at those verse numbers their quite easy to identify as their always the ones thrown about on the net. The Quran is not a book that came about in one go.It was revealed and compiled over a course of 23 years. Many of its verses are relevant to specific events that took place.

So your first verse ;
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

This was revealed in relation to Muslims seeking sanctuary in Medina after 13 years of tyranny and oppression in Mecca. Some escaped and others were expelled leaving behind all they had. Muslims then reestablished themselves in Medina which became the first Muslim city. The Meccans however weren't content and took their armies to destroy Medina. Up until this point the Muslims had no authorituy to fight hence this verse was revealed giving them permission to fight those who fought them and expel those who expelled them.

Taken out of context you can take that verse and make what you want of it . Get the real background and you'll see it for what it is.

Ha, ha, close, it was "Barry" at work who went to Luton recently to watch the football and asked a copper where the pubs were who laughed and told him it was a sharia zone and there were no pubs in the center - probably should google this to check this is true.

Not true, there are plenty of pubs in Luton town centre.

However, there are no pubs within the area around Kenilworth Rd (Luton's stadium), which is very unusual for an old style English League Ground.

I like it mudmuncher but after 30 years in the wilderness I've found my way.

Nous sommes tous Charlie!

The Quran is not a book that came about in one go.It was revealed and compiled over a course of 23 years. Many of its verses are relevant to specific events that took place.

But let's not derail the thread with this guff.

Dunno about none Abrahamic religions texts, is eye for an eye/vengeance is mine first half followed by live and let live in the sequel a common theme?

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Jesus...be careful out there it is not a peaceful religion.

You can cherry pick from any religions and do this sort of stuff edukator and its not like you liked Islam before today.

I can only think Edukator quoted those verses in French, so that people wouldn't instantly recognise them as the usual quoted-out-of-context pish. Won't take the time to do every one but the very first, "Kill them wherever you find them" is preceded immediately by:

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors."

and is closed with

"But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."

In short- "If someone attacks you, go forth and **** them up with my blessing. But once they've learned who they're messing with, leave it, they're not worf it and if you don't stop hitting him we're FINISHED!"

It's exactly like suggesting that Winston Churchill would want you to go to the beach tomorrow and fight a german.

The increase of bare faced racism from seemingly intelligent forum contributors over the last 5 years is really ****ing depressing

I think the touch-paper for civil war has been well and truly lit. Europe wide at least.

I have much, so much more to add but I'm so saddened by today's massacre, I'll refrain.

Rivers of blood....

Outright racism seems to be generally much more acceptable in society these days. All those who claim political correctness has gone mad ought to be pleased.

I think the touch-paper for civil war has been well and truly lit.

This kind of reasoned and rational analysis is exactly what's needed right now.

The increase of bare faced racism from seemingly intelligent forum contributors over the last 5 years is really **** depressing

I think the touch-paper for civil war has been well and truly lit. Europe wide at least.

I have much, so much more to add but I'm so saddened by today's massacre, I'll refrain.

Rivers of blood....

And quite a lot by those not quite so intelligent as well.

What a depressing mess. 'Sharpening contradictions...'?

I know this - I really, really hate that certain (many) people choose their 'facts' based simply upon their existing prejudices and resultant political affiliations. At times such as these there I'm reminded of a saying. (This may be paraphrased) - 'Lies half way around the World before the truth got its boots on'

squirrelking - Member

Ahhh ... just had my fish & chips for dinner so now back to answer someone who is wrong on the interweb ... 😆

The parallel was between the posters views and those of Farage.

I focused on the AK47 shooters only so how the connection to Farage I don't know and for you to simply refer to posters then you lost me there.

Farage has nothing really to do with it, I only included him for the above reason. Could you explain the twisted logic or is it just because you clearly don't understand what I was saying?

The twisted logic here is to post a British politician and his wife, implying he might flare up all hatred even more etc, in relation to AK47 shooters is simply illogical in trying to score points. Completely abstract.

In my opinion, yes.

Spineless, herd mentality, bureaucrats, hypocrite = zombie maggots. Yes?

French AK47 shooters = muslamic related. Yes?

"your worrying gun fetish" = A person needs hobby(s) mine is weapon like gun. Yes?

Which of the above do you think I should change to accommodate you?
Explain yourself. 🙄

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Pk7BS9XC10QC&pg=PT38&lpg=PT38&dq=justification+muslim+conquests&source=bl&ots=M7n9yzBMNX&sig=C_GdIDbyqRru_vn-JjuNn0DnTSA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x8GtVLf-L4WzUYXpgrgD&ved=0CBsQ6AEwADgK

So are all of these quotes racist and taken out of context then? Was Hitchens a racist? Are some of you going to carry on thinking that the Koran was nothing more than a political tool designed to spread Arab political influence? That it doesn't justify conquest and oppression?

Reports now that one suspect has been killed and the other two captured.

I focused on the AK47 shooters only so how the connection to Farage I don't know

Tom_W1987 - Member

Was Hitchens a racist?

Racism isn't the only way to explain his slant. Was the author of "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" perhaps anti-religion, do you think? 😆

[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-the-truths-that-ought-to-be-self-evident-but-still-arent/ ]the most intelligent analysis i've seen about the whole subject. worth reading for the hand wringers particularly[/url]

Especially "10 truths that should be self-evident"

I'd agree with you Northwind but based on his speeches he seemed especially anti-islamic.

Please keep in mind that I still haven't really formed an opinion on this topic/thread yet NW and before anyone gets nasty I'd add that I respect your opinion.

Are some of you going to carry on thinking that the Koran was nothing more than a political tool designed to spread Arab political influence?

Being anti-religon isn't racist - the clue is in the word [i]race[/i]ist. People confuse race and religion (often deliberately) - criticising religion is fair game, and even vital, criticising race is not.

lame pedantic argument trotted out over and over again Bencooper..

the anti islamic sentiments are uncalled for and disgusting

It's pedantic to point out the distinction between race and religion?

So Monty Python was uncalled for?

Religion needs to be criticized, as that spectator article points out.....it just so happens that Islam appears to be the most oppressive religion currently.

in this case yes ben

Tom_W1987 - Member

I'd agree with you Northwind but based on his speeches he seemed especially anti-islamic.

The catholic church thought he was mostly anti-catholic, and the jews thought he was mostly antisemitic. Which is most unlike them 😆 But he described islam, christianity and judaism as the "axis of evil" and said all religious belief was sinister and childish. He hated islam, just not islam in particular, which I reckon is different but still makes him just as unreliable

binners - Member

the most intelligent analysis i've seen about the whole subject. worth reading for the hand wringers particularly

In our time, the most oppressive religious movements are variants on radical Islam. That may change. You only have to look at Hindu fundamentalism in India or anti-Muslim Buddhist fundamentalism in Burma to see how. But for the present we must fight the enemies in front of us. What other choice do we have?

You call that intelligent analysis? That is for hand wringers? That is weak. Very weak. No new arguments there I am afraid. Need something strong.

Ya, trying to draw on all others in parallel to AK47 shooters? Hindu and Burmese ... 😯 The question is did they ever cross the boarder to the West to spray AK47 projectile? Why not offer asylum to those disenfranchises there? I mean I bet their govt won't mind. Less mouth to feed etc. EU can feed them if EU wants ...

It's like saying North Korea should be democratic ... wtf! N. Korea is self contained and their business are theirs and I don't want to feed them so why should the "world" keep wanting them to be democratic?

Compare them to AK47 faith?

Ya, no wonder they (author(s) of the article) are screwed. 🙄

Yunki, I'm guessing you're going to say that criticism of religion is like racism because you are born into both.

That's akin to saying criticism of communism is racist because there are plenty of brainwashed Chinese, North Koreans and ageing Russians about.

the problem is that many racists - the EDL spring to mind - claim they are only criticising religion and are not racist and its BS
On this thread both legitimate and racist criticism has been made
Both views [ Yunki and Bens] have some merit and one cannot be [ forgive me] black and white about it. It all depends

I don't think the name you apply is important- whether it's racism, xenophobia, islamophobia, deiphobia in general, it's all shitebaggery.

Religious belief goes to the core, it's very much a part of a person, it's not a hat you just put on and take off and if you attack a person's faith, they will see it as an attack on their person. So in that regard, a bit like skin colour. It's different in that it's a choice but that doesn't really matter- it's not like we think racism is wrong because people have no choice in their race after all.

Tom_W1987 - Member
That's akin to saying criticism of communism is racist because there are plenty if brainwashed Chinese, North Koreans and ageing Russians about.

Chinese brainwashed? 😯 You have Noooo idea. Good thing the communist oppress or brainwash them otherwise you will have to speak mandarin to earn a living. There is no way you can compete with them and not even the Jews (apparently the cleverest people according to someone ...).

There are reasons why these countries are oppressed for good because when open up they will consume the world!

Why on earth do you want to bother them I don't know ... you can observe them or keep an eye on them but to change their thinking? They will beat you at your own game.

😯

Religious belief goes to the core, it's very much a part of a person, it's not a hat you just put on and take off and if you attack a person's faith, they will see it as an attack on their person. So in that regard, a bit like skin colour. It's different in that it's a choice but that doesn't really matter- it's not like we think racism is wrong because people have no choice in their race after all.

Your skin colour doesn't oppress people (well, directly), again this is like defending extreme political views because someone had them ingrained in them from an early age.

Sky News showing newspaper front pages. The most common image is the moment where the terrorists execute the injured policeman as he lays on the ground. This is the image that the TV news felt unable to show.

The murder of ****stani school children has lead to a material change in government policy to terrorism. todays events are similarly significant

jambalaya - Member

Sky News showing newspaper front pages. The most common image is the moment where the terrorists execute the injured policeman as he lays on the ground. This is the image that the TV news felt unable to show.

The murder of ****stani school children has lead to a material change in government policy to terrorism. todays events are similarly significant

They showed no mercy to the innocents then mercy should not be given to them. Waste of oxygen is a waste.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Your skin colour doesn't oppress people (well, directly), again this is like defending extreme political views because someone had them ingrained in them from an early age.

Not at all- I'm not defending oppression, or extreme views. I'm saying that when you attack a faith, you can't be surprised that people of that faith feel attacked. And the constant belittling of faith and lumping in of all people of a religion with extremists does exactly that. Whether that's "there's too many muslims in the UK" or "moderate muslims need to act!" or "Islam has been hijacked", it's all about pointing a finger at someone for their faith and lumping nearly a quarter of the world's population in with headbangers who go on a shooting spree. It is all otherness and "us and them" and no good can ever come of it, and lots of bad.

As far as links between racism and islamophobia... Would Barack Obama be accused of being a muslim if he was white? Would my syrian atheist colleague and my indian catholic ex-colleague have been the victim of anti-islamic abuse if they were white? (ironically she put the mental back into fundamentalist, and quite possibly might blow up a mosque or an abortion clinic some time)

So heartening to hear the so called moderate Muslims denounce these extreme Muslims. How about they grow up and denounce the infantile fairy tale completely and create a real us v's them with the deluded believers and the sane inhabitants of this planet.

As far as links between racism and islamophobia... Would Barack Obama be accused of being a muslim if he was white?

Northwind - Member
Not at all- I'm not defending oppression, or extreme views. I'm saying that when you attack a faith, you can't be surprised that people of that faith feel attacked. And the constant belittling of faith and lumping in of all people of a religion with extremists does exactly that. Whether that's "there's too many muslims in the UK" or "moderate muslims need to act!" or "Islam has been hijacked", it's all about pointing a finger at someone for their faith and lumping nearly a quarter of the world's population in with headbangers who go on a shooting spree. It is all otherness and "us and them" and no good can ever come of it, and lots of bad.

+1

On the flip side, such comments are also an excellent give away as to whether you need to read or listen to such arguments further NW! Saves an awful lot of time.

JCL - Member
So heartening to hear the so called moderate Muslims denounce these extreme Muslims. How about they grow up and denounce the infantile fairy tale completely and create a real us v's them with the deluded believers and the sane inhabitants of this planet.

What and let the maturity gap get even greater? The old, the religious are insane chestnut!!

The old accusing anyone who criticises religious teaching of saying the religious are insane chestnut.

Read those verses, Northwind, it's exactly what those killing people whilst shouting out religious messages are doing. A common factor in the religious murders in France recently is that the perpetrators have shouted religious statements as they've shot or driven into their victims. Have a look at some of the Islamic site too. They are calling for killing.

It was before the hack, but I was equally critical of Bush and the Blair couple before and during Gulf war two. Jacques Chirac's book includes details of conversation with Bush in which Bush tried to persuade him to join the war for religious reasons.

It's the old Christian and Muslim tit for tat. Qui sème la croisade récolte le jihad. Sow the crusade, reap the jihad.

Sky News showing newspaper front pages. The most common image is the moment where the terrorists execute the injured policeman as he lays on the ground.

Edukator

Read those verses, Northwind, it's exactly what those killing people whilst shouting out religious messages are doing. A common factor in the religious murders in France recently is that the perpetrators have shouted religious statements as they've shot or driven into their victims. Have a look at some of the Islamic site too. They are calling for killing.

Islamic fundamentalists shout religious statements shocker. It doesn't matter what the Koran says though, it's about interpretation. There's plenty of hatred and incitement in the bible, it's about the will to distort it's message to suit your needs.

I don't know why you are bothering to go after the Koran anyway when you've mentioned the real problem in the same post - Sow a crusade, reap the jihad. The harder Britain and the U.S try to bomb civility and western values into the Muslim world the deeper the seeds of hatred will be sown.

D0NK

so instead of leading with a display of solidarity with Charlie hebdo and a display of the little thing that a minority got murderously angered by they lead with the result and help spread the terror a bit further.

If you were the editor of a large news paper and you had the option to do this, potentially putting your life, your families' lives and potentially the lives of your staff in danger would you?

Indy was the only UK paper that went for it as far as I know.

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the rest have been blurring images of the cartoons which rather feels like the killers have won?

You have to hand it to the Germans though;

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the Belgians give it some dignity;

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and we get pictures of a man about to be murdered. No imagination and no empathy.

Steve Bell does a sterling job, however;

Steve B

bencooper - Member
Reports now that one suspect has been killed and the other two captured

One suspect handed himself in, the other two are brothers - this deduced from the fact one left an ID card in the getaway vehicle. Armed and gormless.

One of the two brothers on the run is reported to have been arresting for plotting terrorism in 2005 and served... 18 months.

You then hear stories from ISIS insiders who say that wholesale incarceration of suspects in Iraq in 2003/4 provided them with the ideal, safe (impossible logistically otherwise) means to plot the formation of ISIS.

My take on what the West is seeing with terrorism is very simple. We've tried playing nice and it does not work - the terrorists are laughing at us and gradually eroding our freedoms - it has been failing for some time; Vietnam, Afghanistan (several times for the British), Iraq, Syria, and the terrorism at home. The true definition of madness is repeating tactics and strategy and hoping for different, better results.

digga

We've tried playing nice and it does not work - the terrorists are laughing at us and gradually eroding our freedoms - it has been failing for some time; Vietnam, Afghanistan (several times for the British), Iraq, Syria, and the terrorism at home. The true definition of madness is repeating tactics and strategy and hoping for different, better results.

So your tactic would be?

The independent cover is great. Not sure about this though:

You have to hand it to the Germans though;

Obviously no cartoon ever justifies violence but I also don't see how reproducing racist caricatures of Arabs is helping anyone.

Digga - if your idea of playing nice is invading Muslim countries and killing thousands of innocent people, and kidnapping and torturing suspects, I dread to think what it is you're suggesting we should be doing instead.

It's not the terrorists who are eroding our freedoms BTW.

Vietnam??????? WTF

If you were the editor of a large news paper and you had the option to do this

And tbh, having thought about it more, the Indy one is probably best, giving the finger to the terrorists while not giving moderates the opportunity to get sidetracked, keep everyone's mind on being pissed at the terrorists.

Obviously no cartoon ever justifies violence but I also don't see how reproducing racist caricatures of Arabs is helping anyone.

+1

It's not the terrorists who are eroding our freedoms BTW.

+1