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Tom_W1987 - Member
These men looked trained as opposed to home grown idiot nutcases.
Home grown are meant to carry out suicide bombing only ... they are disposable.
These are of course well trained shooters to handle AK47 which is not easy without training.
I really wouldn't be surprised if they are hardened ISIS militants.
@Tom Agreed on hardened, although they said they where Al-Q in Yemen and they are equally battle hardened.
Excellent piece from Vice News (outstanding news site with lots of coverage main stream sites don't have an different view points)
[url= https://news.vice.com/article/charlie-hebdo-shooting-rampage-is-the-fourth-similar-attack-in-france-in-three-weeks ]Vice News; Fourth Similar Attack in France in 3 weeks[/url]
No, any idiot can rage out and go on a shooting spree. Doing it calmly, using controlled fire and escaping takes training and a very different mindset.
IMO I don't think it's long before we get an attack like the recent one in ****stan.
Shall we deal with the current issue before we dig up WWII again?
I'm simply pointing out the obvious of where this could lead.
At first, few Germans paid much attention to the Nazis,
How many Muslims are paying much attention to extremism?
I'm afraid I still can't comprehend the difference between a hateful ideology that calls itself a political movement and one that calls itself a religion.
Bad is Bad whatever the name and I fear the Wests failure to address the problem will result in an excessive reaction down the line.
The really frightening thing is that a group like this with those types of weapons plus worse, could wreak havoc and death in any of our Cities, with even specialist police firearm teams unable to cope.
How long would it take to get properly trained Army/SAS troops into the area? It would be all over long before then. FFS!
And would you still say that if your Wife worked as a Receptionist at one of those Newspapers?
Well, the Yanks wouldn't have any issues - as the receptionists are often armed. We have to draw a line and say that we are ready to stand for our own values, newspapers need to employ people who are willing to take thoses risks and they also need to spend more money on security.
The really frightening thing is that a group like this with those types of weapons plus worse, could wreak havoc and death in any of our Cities, with even specialist police firearm teams unable to cope.How long would it take to get properly trained Army/SAS troops into the area? It would be all over long before then. FFS!
The proliferation of illegal guns in the UK is actually ridiculous, we might shit on the yanks for their gun laws but we have 10s if not 100s of thousands of illegal weapons on the streets - it's just no one has much of an incentive to use them that often at the moment.
I'm simply pointing out the obvious of where this could lead.
It could lead anywhere [ but logical and coherent debate]
There are very few parallels to be drawn between a religious pan national movement and a nationalist fascistic expansionist one. They both committed atrocities but that is it. We are hardly "appeasing" them as the numerous invasions and bombings of them should suggest.
You cannot beat an idea or a religion with persecution and bombs
esselgruntfuttock - Member
I'm simply pointing out the obvious of where this could lead.
Ya, but you have to remember there are plenty of PhDs on STW so stating the obvious only undermine their intellectual capacity. You score no points there.
How many Muslims are paying much attention to extremism?
I think you are asking too much of everyone if you think people are that concerned about extremism until it strikes. Usually it's too late.
🙄
BTW - the argument from earlier about 'the LRA aren't a threat to us in the west'. Well no, of course not - that's either a particularly poor straw man or people just being moronic.
The point is, that when a nutty organisation do unspeakably vile things on a large scale in the name of christianity, no-one tries to claim there is a general problem with christianity. The Ku Klux Klan is an overtly christian organisation, or try Anders Breivik, or some of these:
FWIW there clearly is a problem with the extremist interpretation of Islam - but making crass generalisations and over-hyping the danger isn't going to help anyone.
You cannot beat an idea or a religion with persecution and bombs
Personally I think this is wrong really, the Taliban and some AQ commanders have even admitted they wished the 9/11 towers had never been attacked as the yanks put their command structure back by a few decades.
Calculated attacks by trained individuals can be stopped by attacking command and training structures and killing leaders - the Americans have been pretty successful in this regard as AQ hasn't had the capability to attack America on home soil for quite some time now. The Russians have pretty effectively stomped the Chechen rebels on the head post 2004 as well. Stopping lone wolf attacks by lunatics is harder though.
right so Al quaeda still exist but what i said was horse shit? has their world view been beaten? Have they stopped doing terrorist attacks?
probably be a stronger rebuttal if you said how we no longer have Al Qaeda and terrorism since we attacked the axis of evil. Then again that is at odds with the facts
We cannot defeat Islamic extremis by bombing them all can we?
Reduce , impact on yes, defeat No
I
think you are asking too much of everyone if you think people are that concerned about extremism until it strikes. Usually it's too late.
Like Ze Germans? 🙂
probably be a stronger rebuttal if you said how we no longer have Al Qaeda and terrorism since we attacked the axis of evil. Then again that is at odds with the facts
AQ still exists, what I'm saying is that their capabilities are greatly diminished. This is a short term solution, the longer term solution is a cultural war but these can last hundreds of years.
I haven't read this thread, but just heard about this on R4 News. Such events will only fuel the rise of a right wing reaction across Europe, of the kind we have seen recently in Germany. This is all going to end very badly!
This statement from Salman Rushdie captures my feeling...
"Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms.
"This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.
"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.
"'Respect for religion' has become a code phrase meaning 'fear of religion.' Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."
"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity"
As a longtime Private Eye subscriber I agree wholeheartedly.
esselgruntfuttock - Member
Like Ze Germans?
Nein.
You cannot compare them to Germans. Germans built VW (air cooled), Mercedes Bens, Audi, BMW etc and were technologically superior to most in those days.
What we have seen now is just guerrilla warfare on soft targets.
oldboy - MemberI haven't read this thread, but just heard about this on R4 News. Such events will only fuel the rise of a right wing reaction across Europe, of the kind we have seen recently in Germany. This is all going to end very badly!
That's the cycle ...
I fear there will be repercussions for the wider muslim community in France as a result of these murders. There have always been simmering tensions between the indigenous French and their immigrant population - This attack is a gift for the right wing in France. If I were a conspiracy believer I'd have things to say about a well trained, adept and informed (victims at a board meeting) death squad having the discipline to escape armed police but the lack of discipline to not shout out plenty of allah akbars etc etc so there's no doubt who did it.. .
joolsburger - MemberI fear there will be repercussions for the wider muslim community in France as a result of these murders. There have always been simmering tensions between the indigenous French and their immigrant population - This attack is a gift for the right wing in France.
It's inevitable. You can only push people to some extend then all hell break loose and that's where one side will be severely defeated. Then everyone take notes of their guilt, contemplate for a generation or two and the cycle starts again with something else.
We cannot defeat Islamic extremis by bombing them all can we?
Nope but it'd be a start....target the heads of these organisations, target the training camps...absolutely annihilate groups like ISIS/ISIL etc...special forces soldiers essentially on long term rotation executing these murderous individuals.
Combine the above with intelligence gathering and proper surveillance in this country of the preachers, students, websites etc that spread the violent extreme form of Islam that is so problematic at the moment.
Accompany the above with a more outspoken and robust approach from Politicians and newspapers who seem paralysed by fear of offending peaceful Muslims, openly and vigorously criticise this wing of the religion...mock it if necessary but dont try and pass it off with the cliched "they're not real Muslims" nonsence...they believe they are, they believe they are interpreting the faith the correct way, they believe everybody else is wrong.
...while we're at it encourage the sane and peaceful majority to dob their own lot in if they have concerns.
When a youth has a complete change of character, starts talking about jihad and adopts a more radical approach to the faith at home i'd hope the parents would have the guts to come forward and share that information with authorities....sadly it doesnt seem to happen.
Seriously, it would benefit the Muslim majority to put its own house in order because the non Muslim public only has the stomach for so much until all Muslims are seen as the same....and then you'll have a situation where far right parties cruise into power and the religion and its followers (peaceful or otherwise) will have a tough time of it....how long before revenge attacks on Muslims?
Look at the Jews in pre-war Germany....followers of Islam could find themselves on the recieving end of that if they dont face up to the danger of their own lunatic fringe.
Edit- just read a few posts above mine, Salman Rushdie has it right.
A simple way of reducing the threat would be to control mass immigration of muslims into the country.
IMO I think we've been playing a game in which we should have kept out of the Muslim world and not interfered with geopolitics or we should have gone down the Israeli route. We have done neither and now the only option that I feel is left, is getting as dirty as the Israelis.
badnewz - Member A simple way of reducing the threat would be to control mass immigration of muslims into the country.
Of course it would. What a brilliant well thought out idea. 🙄
Apart from the fact the Islamic terrorist here are British borne that is an excellent suggestion
Yeah, however we do have the benefit of being an island meaning that we can place our borders under greater scrutiny than the French. The French have long borders which allow people like these to potentially skip over the Syrian/Iraqi borders into Turkey and then the EU.
What pisses me off the most is the anti-immigrant feeling that's caused by this then extends to immigrants who are from entirely different backgrounds, like my wife for example, I think we need to find a damage limitation strategy/rhetoric that placates and limits the right to venting their frustrations on the Muslim world.
Our egalitarian society is slowly going to hell otherwise. It's a damage limitation exercise now.
Apart from the fact the Islamic terrorist here are British borne that is an excellent suggestion,
I've been opposed to mass immigration for years anyhow - so if I had my way, there wouldn't be a significant Muslim community in the UK in the first place.
Nope but it'd be a start....target the heads of these organisations, target the training camps...absolutely annihilate groups like ISIS/ISIL etc...special forces soldiers essentially on long term rotation executing these murderous individuals.
We can thank the Americans for founding ISIS
"the US-run prison provided an extraordinary opportunity. “We could never have all got together like this in Baghdad, or anywhere else,” he told me. “It would have been impossibly dangerous. Here, we were not only safe, but we were only a few hundred metres away from the entire al-Qaida leadership.”
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story ]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story[/url]
I've been opposed to mass immigration for years anyhow - so if I had my way, there wouldn't be a significant Muslim community in the UK in the first place.
I would never have guessed anyway do you accept that reducing it now wont help or not ? Just trying to see whether facts have any impact on your view.
I would never have guessed anyway do you accept that reducing it now wont help or not ? Just trying to see whether facts have any impact on your view.
Of course it would be beneficial. You have no manners btw (and I expect, no friends either).
Ok so facts dont matter, thanks.
I have some manners but they are limited in nature and scope, like your thinking 😉
@badnewz don't forget the sterlisation camps that you'll need to stop them making babies. Maybe we should sequest all there goods and chattals, maybe put them all in temporary camps for their own safety n that.
Junkyard - lazarus
I've been opposed to mass immigration for years anyhow - so if I had my way, there wouldn't be a significant Muslim community in the UK in the first place.I would never have guessed anyway do you accept that reducing it now wont help or not ? Just trying to see whether facts have any impact on your view.
Setting quota for each country. How hard can that be or are you spineless?
Those local terrors the govt can stripe off their nationality ... ya, no passport ... no travel. Any other country wants them then they can feed and house them but they are banned from entering this country forever.
🙄
Those local terrors the govt can stripe off their nationality ... ya, no passport ... no travel. Any other country wants them then they can feed and house them.
Eh?
Je suis Charlie
RaveyDavey - Member
Those local terrors the govt can stripe off their nationality ... ya, no passport ... no travel. Any other country wants them then they can feed and house them.Eh?
Eh? Which part do you not understand? How hard can it be?
Setting quotas for each country.
Far too late for that chewie, the damage is well & truly done.
Anyone on here heard of Enoch Powell BTW? (although he didn't mention anything about Islamic terrorists going around causing bother to be fair)
Persecuting Muslims is like trying to kick the cancer out of a patient, we can keep open borders but restrict Islamic practice as we would any other fascist behaviour.
Anyone on here heard of Enoch Powell BTW?
Yes a well know racist who made a false prophecy who is often quoted by racist who are too ashamed of their own views to say them publicly.
What of him? Tell me more
I am Charlie
esselgruntfuttock - MemberSetting quotas for each country.
Far too late for that chewie, the damage is well & truly done.
Anyone on here heard of Enoch Powell BTW? (although he didn't mention anything about Islamic terrorists going around causing bother to be fair)
Not too late yet. If this continues for another two generations yes that might be too late.
Ya, I have heard of E.Powell and most people think he had funny ideas but he saw them coming ...
Junkyard - lazarusYes a well know racist who made a false prophecy who is often quoted by racist who are too ashamed of their own views to say them publicly.
What of him? Tell me more
I am Charlie
I think you are too quick off your trigger by your racist assumption, I mean some people genuinely do not like others so why force them to change their views?
Charlie, so you are ... 😆 I don't come across that name often nowadays.
Anyone on here heard of Enoch Powell BTW?
The bloke most misquoted by people trying to prove erroneous (and different) points - that one?
Tom , I was going to disagree with the "what pisses me off..." (for optimistic reasons) but looks like you may be right 🙁
Junkyard so to worry about immigration and the future makes anyone narrow minded and a racist?
Junkyard so to worry about immigration and the future makes anyone narrow minded and a racist?
Its the (weak) tactic most frequently used to stifle debate on the issue.
...or calling him a racist could be just he sort response that has resulted in legitimate concerns remaining unanswered and develop into larger problems than they need be.
Junky, I would like to like you but you are like a half wit six former with too much time on his hands.
The bloke most misquoted by people trying to prove erroneous (and different) points - that one?
Some good reading on that:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/1968/riversofblood.shtml
Well this is depressing reading
Hora - do you not think that "immigrants are clogging up our public services" are far worse attempts to stifle debate? Orr immigrants are taking our (sic) jobs and depressing our pay? All nonsense.
You have to take your hat off the GO for one thing as he quashed T May's bllx about sending foreign students back at source.
Power play for the leadership as well THM?
But yes well played GO
To worry about immigration and the future makes anyone narrow minded and a racist?
Who said that ?
As for stifle debate
What of him? Tell me more
So do feel free to explain your views
Junky, I would like to like you but you are like a half wit six former with too much time on his hands.
That is probably helpful to the debate innit.
Unfortunatly the half wit six formers are all you entitleist, reactionary, poorly edumacted morons, who think kicking butt is the answer. Can't you see kicking butt is what causes the problems in the first place. Humans honestly. We are going to self destruct if you lot can't stop being selfish big mouthed bastards.
Team hurt more that's a naive argument. I pay taxes as do other 2nd and generations within my wider family. We all are British. However there are many other factors and pressures. False blame. Resentment etc all being levelled due to unchecked immigration. Wheres the quality? Wehy aren't we now cherry picking our new immigrants? You'll comeback with a thousand arguments why I'm wrong but you won't have a solution
Well done, so do I. How is that related to my previous point. I assume that your a well aware of the breakdown of immigration patterns into the Uk and how that affects overall tax revenues (and wages)?
Well this is depressing reading
Not as depressing as reading about cartoonists being murdered by religious dickheads.
Enoch wasn't right on all counts but he had a point & my Dad loved him. My Dad who fought in WW2 for what we have now, that Dad. He'll be turning in his grave now that's for sure.
Junkyard so to worry about immigration and the future makes anyone narrow minded and a racist?
It would appear so in Junky's world. I'm obviously a racist then, anyone else?
[img] 
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Nope I don't worry about immigration, I worry about nasty ideas being allowed into our society because there designated a religion.
Most of the arguing above is like two bald men fighting over a comb.
All you bring to the table is problems, you don't have any solutions and little, or no, empathy.
This thread should be closed so you can withdraw to the bathroom to get rid of some testosterone.
@ninfan, yes indeed, very scary times. France has the largest Muslim population in Europe. Things are going to be very very tense.
I stopped reading the post after that. So sorry if it has already been answered, but the situation isn't going to change. This isn't the first time France as been targeted by acts of terrorism (the latest in mind is the killing in the Jewish school) and it won't change anything as usual. Obvioulsy some fools are going to vote LePen, but I am pretty damn sure that this shooting will do less for the FN than the success less politics of both the latest UMP and PS government.
hora - Member
Wehy aren't we now cherry picking our new immigrants?
Because we don't need to.
You'll comeback with a thousand arguments why I'm wrong
No it's very simple. The vast majority of immigrants are young economically active people looking for and getting work. They have a positive impact on the economy - growth and wages, yes wages.
but you won't have a solution
Yes I do. Stick to facts not UKIP BS. You only need a solution if there is a problem. And most immigration stuff is little more than ill-informed scaremongering.
Of course he can say that. I, along with almost any other sane person, think he's wrong, but he can say it.
Who the hell is he anyway. And you're far from being a sane person, you riding a fraking specialized
Ta mere!
😉
Tout va bien, mon vieux?
tut tut it's mère with the accent, I am ok, still not rich, but then I choose the bike industry.
I know, just couldn't be bothered to find it on the tablet keyboard!
I was listening to an interview with Steve Bell, the Grauniad cartoonist on the way home.
I can't remember his exact words, but I'm pretty sure he described this extremism as an 'exhibitionist death cult'. Very good definition.
Vile people doing vile things and getting off on it. Dressing it up a religious fervour, or whatever.
It defies categorization unless you realise it is just perversion, plain and simple, with a post hoc 'justification'.
Vile people doing vile things and getting off on it. Dressing it up a religious fervour, or whatever.
Agreed. Sadly, I suspect that for many young men, they also get a kick out of dressing up like something out of Call of Duty and going bang bang with a gun, innit, bro?
No reset button in reality. 🙁
For a total change what THM says , perhaps the only issue we will agree on.
Essel I still did not say that.
Is the new passive aggressive thing claiming someone said you were a racist and then refusing to state your views because they stop you ? I ask you again to feel free to expand on your views.
Here are some stats to put some of the discussion into context:40% of British Muslims want Sharia law
20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
*cracks knuckles*
Well.
From the actual poll results ( http://www.icmunlimited.com/pdfs/2006_february_sunday_telegraph_muslims_poll.pdf) we can see that whilst your facts are correct the questions have been grossly misrepresented. The questions asked, from a sample of 500 (just 0.0185% of the 2,706,066 people in England and Wales who identified as Muslim in the 2011 census), were:
Q.7 Irrespective of whether you think the London bombings were justified or not, do you personally have any sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried out the attacks?
and
Q.10 Would you support or oppose there being areas of Britain which are pre-dominantly Muslim and in which Sharia law is introduced?
Of course the article you linked to failed to link to some other questions asked (since they couldn't be twisted to suit an agenda) such as:
Q.6 I would now like to read out some things that other people have said about issues that affect Muslims living in Britain today. For each one, please tell me whether you think it was or is right or wrong?
For Muslims to have bombed London on 7/7 and 21/7 (Wrong 91%)
Q.8 Do you think that most Muslims living in Britain are very loyal to this country, quite loyal, not very loyal or not loyal at all? (NET: Loyal 81%)
Q.9 How loyal do you personally feel towards Britain? (NET: Loyal 91%)
So really, if you're too lazy or stupid to check the facts behind the figures then you're no more intelligent than those you seek to disparage.
What I think is more interesting is the split of opinion - yes there are a worrying (if not necessarily surprising, for various reasons) number of those who are distinctly anti-West, but also that there are, in most cases, roughly as many who are opposed to the view.
Which is, again, complete and utter bullshit. Look at page 7 of the report you linked to and you'll see that approval for US attacks on American civilians doesn't even reach 10% besides in Jordan (11%) and ****stan (24%). Even when the question is pointed towards the interviewees home turf the figures remain broadly the same (couple of % increase) for all territories.
You clearly either have reading issues or you'll swallow any shit presented to you provided it has some "credible evidence" attached that you don't bother reading or investigating.
What pisses me off the most is the anti-immigrant feeling that's caused by this then extends to immigrants who are from entirely different backgrounds, like my wife for example, I think we need to find a damage limitation strategy/rhetoric that placates and limits the right to venting their frustrations on the Muslim world.
So really, what you're saying is that your wife is fine (who is foreign so you're not a racist) but you don't like the people who pray funny? Are you this guy?
[img] 
[/img]
Enoch wasn't right on all counts but he had a point & my Dad loved him. My Dad who fought in WW2 for what we have now, that Dad. He'll be turning in his grave now that's for sure.
Oh Jesus ****ing wept. I'm sure he would be if you're supporting the baying mob who are more intent on persecuting an ideology than prosecuting those who undermine it. To make this clear; your dead dad, his political views and his military service has bugger all to do with this debate. You're a big boy and can hold your own reasoned opinions without having to invoke daddy and his gallant career.
For Muslims to have bombed London on 7/7 and 21/7 (Wrong 91%)
Wow. So that's only 9% or close to 1/3 million people who thought the bombings were "right" then. We can all sleep safer knowing that.
squirrelking - I really don't think those quotes really help your argument.
40% of Muslims want some kind of self regulated Ghetto where a woman is a second class citizen?
9% didn't think 7/7 was wrong!
FFS.
ignore history at ur peril, hence why im going to go and live very far away, in a cold place far away from all this crap.
No, it's 9% of the 500 people surveyed, which is actually 0.00166% of the Muslim population of E&W. With no other info on the respondents who approved you cannot make any meaningful conjecture as to the real views. That % is well below any accepted margin for error so is statistically invalid.
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
squirrelking - Member
*cracks knuckles
You just have to slip in an attack on your political opponents don't you.
Until Mr Farage carries an AK47 and sprays everyone with projectiles, you presented yourself as a zombie maggot that is no different from the WWI commander that shoot their own army in the back.
This thread is about those shooters that murdered the newspaper publishers in cold blood and that is the best you can come up with by kicking a politician ...
You could drop to the lowest of the low do you know?
😯 🙄
I should also add that more women (103 - 41%) approved of Sharia than men (97 - 39%).
I should also add that more women (103 - 41%) approved of Sharia than men (97 - 39%).
Really?
Did they get to complete their own confidential survey forms?
40% of Muslims want some kind of self regulated Ghetto where a woman is a second class citizen
really was the the question asked or your interpretation of the answer?
FWIW the actual figures were 1 % 30,000 thought it was right @ Q 6
PAGE 6 read it you quoted the wring figure.
Just5minutes you might want to take the radical step of reading the report the figure for thinking the bombing was right is 1%. Muslims are capable of neuanced responses who would of thought ?
No, I didn't have to put that in I just thought it was an appropriate (and admittedly amusing) parallel.
At least I'm attempting to hold an intelligent debate.
Back at you though, can you actually discuss anything without bringing up "zombie maggots", "muslamics" or your worrying gun fetish?
Junkyard & crankboy - yup, my bad I should have remembered I need to spoon feed everyone. As you said just 1% (4 whole people) said it was right whilst the remaining % refused to answer or didn't know.
As I said. Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.
Its the (weak) tactic most frequently used to stifle debate on the issue.
Crying political correctness gone mad is the weak tactic most frequently used by bigots to try and claim that they aren't allowed to be bigots.
But you can rest easy, it's perfectly fine to be a bigot these days - we can see that quite clearly on here and in our national media.
really was the the question asked or your interpretation of the answer?
areas of Britain which are pre-dominantly Muslim
If a predominately Muslim area was subject to Sharia Law it would very quickly become only something that could be described as a ghetto.
a woman is a second class citizen
Junkyard - even a leftie hand wringer like you cannot possibly argue that a woman is equal to a man under Sharia? Please go ahead and try!
squirrelking - MemberNo, I didn't have to put that in I just thought it was an appropriate (and admittedly amusing) parallel.
At least I'm attempting to hold an intelligent debate.
Back at you though, can you actually discuss anything without bringing up "zombie maggots", "muslamics" or your worrying gun fetish?
There is no parallel here as we are not discussing Powell Vs Farage etc. We are on the topic of those using AK47 ... Do you see Powell and Farage using AK47?
Intelligent debate? More like twisted logic that is based on pure hatred of certain politicians. Are you so weak you cannot even handle Farage or the like?
Yes, perhaps I am too simple to express my views differently but am I wrong in my summing up of my views on those?
🙄
im going to go and live very far away, in a cold place far away from all this crap.
+1