[Closed] "Muslim" terrorists attack French magazine in Paris

The way forward is not to hate Muslims, but neither is it to excuse Islam.

Words like "Islamophobia" and blasphemy try to shut down discussion, and that can't be allowed if there is to be a solution.

For those who claim that the actions of western countries are mainly to blame, I offer the words of the french jihadists the other day "God is Great" and "We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad - no mention of drones at all - maybe we should take them at their word.

I agree with all of that but it still seems reasonable to suggest our behaviour [western foreign policy generally] has helped spread resentment and has not spread radicalism. It has not caused this incident but it may have fuelled their journey to radicalism

jambalaya - Member

We have been coping with radical Islam for generations

I think he meant to say "we've been coping with radicalising muslims for generations"

Still you support them and criticise the nasty terrorists. You are both beyond parody and reason.
Whoppit was way to polite in his response to you

I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Why does anything need to be "done" about Muslims?

Yes Hora , the state formed by terrorism, has been nothing but the victim of others act if brutality and they way the treat the Palestinians is nothing short of Humanitarian and example to us all

I doubt the west will end up in worse state than israel unless we start to treat Muslims worse than they do.

If i wanted advice on dealing with arabs/Muslims and living side by side in peace and harmony I would no more ask the advice of Israel than I would ask Nazis about how to treat the "jewish problem"

YMMV and forgive the goodwin

DaRC_L - Member
Jambalaya - have you seen this report from our Saudi 'friends'
A man who supports feminism and is an atheist and used Facebook

Would now be a good time to mention this?

One of these is freedom of expression the other had to be retracted:

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Junkyard - lazarus
If i wanted advice on what to do with muslims

Why does anything need to be "done" with Muslims?

I see the usual suspects here have their heads in the sand. Read that piece a few times. There is a chilling truth in almost every line. The extremists exist, to attempt to passify or normalise them is pointless. These killers murdered journalists for drawing a cartoon, its nothing to do with Western action at home or abroad. Nothing to do with a 10 year old ban on headscarfs worn by teachers or action against ISIS or Al-Q. They were born in France and lived their entire lives there supported by all the French state has to offer.

EDIT: Just for those that don't know Al-Monitor is a news website run by a Syrian living in the US, its pretty balanced IMO

They were born in France and lived their entire lives there supported by all the French state has to offer.

So who trained them then?

Let me guess, the freemasons, on orders from the lizards and their control structures?

You tell me, I'm interested in the basis for jambalaya's account...

A balanced newspaper has various views within i. The issue is whether that commentator was balanced not the entire content and whilst criticising others for having their head in the sand you both missed that point and did not comment on it ....oh the irony.

The extremists exist, to attempt to passify or normalise them is pointless.

THe issue was whether we should ignore human rights in order to "deal with them". Again you missed the point - this time the one you made - I have no idea how you do this tbh and i am starting to suspect trolling, this is bizarre. Clearly you support this but only as long as your side that does it and we blame them for us doing it .

Its not a "principle" i support.

So who trained them then?

One of them is known to have been to the Jihadis training camps in Yemen

jambalaya - Member

I see the usual suspects here have their heads in the sand. Read that piece a few times. There is a chilling truth in almost every line. The extremists exist, to attempt to passify or normalise them is pointless.

A chilling truth from unnamed sources (which doesn't surprise me from you) that disagrees with several ex-heads of the organisation one source is supposedly from. Hawkish pish.

These killers murdered journalists for drawing a cartoon, its nothing to do with Western action at home or abroad. Nothing to do with a 10 year old ban on headscarfs worn by teachers or action against ISIS or Al-Q.

Supposition much?

Not disagreeing with the general message, but lumping all Israelis into one murderous group is similar to lumping all Muslims in with Islamist extremists. As I'm distantly related by marriage to some moderate Israelis, just to declare my connection.

Hope ST Towers are happy to have Charlie's cartoons on their website?

@ Tom W I am referring to the sate not all the people within it and your point is true

Damn, forgot to use the word "nuance" .....

Anyone come up with a satisfactory explanation for the lack of blood yet?

Compare:

Do you just spend your life looking for conspiracies in absolutely anything and everything?

[s]What [/s] Who made you say that 😉

No, but when key events are unfolding and the powers that be have a very rich history in falsehoods, lies and fabrication, it'd be silly to just buy it every time without some analysis...

Lifer .. "Supposition much"

To quote myself:
"For those who claim that the actions of western countries are mainly to blame, I offer the words of the french jihadists the other day "God is Great" and "We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad - no mention of drones at all - maybe we should take them at their word."

I'm not saying that the actions of western governments are irrelevant in this discussion .. just that when people murder others and then _clearly say_ they are killing for a particular reason perhaps the search for a solution would benefit from listening.

The religion of peace again spreading it's message of peace of love again I see...

We obviously need to give them a cuddle and tolerate them more...

[i]it'd be silly to just buy it every time without some analysis[/i]

could you not just buy it every once in a while? For a change, like.

We obviously need to give them a cuddle and tolerate them more...

We should help them integrate more. If they spent their youth getting pissed, then instead of expressing their alienation through violent religious extremism, they could do it in the more time-honoured western fashion of kicking the shit out of each other outside a kebab house at 3 in the morning.

eat_the_pudding - Member

Lifer .. "Supposition much"

To quote myself:
"For those who claim that the actions of western countries are mainly to blame, I offer the words of the french jihadists the other day "God is Great" and "We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad - no mention of drones at all - maybe we should take them at their word."

I'm not saying that the actions of western governments are irrelevant in this discussion .. just that when people murder others and then _clearly say_ they are killing for a particular reason perhaps the search for a solution would benefit from listening.

If the aim was to 'avenge the prophet' then what's the rest of the carry on about? Much more dangerous to limit the scope of potential motivation IMO.

could you not just buy it every once in a while? For a change, like.

I wish; but you really have to wonder when MPs and the people running the intelligence services have interests like private military contractors/mercenaries:

[img] [/img]

The problem I have with all conspiracies is that they assume a level of ruthless competence, and efficiency in those allegedly carrying them out. And thats where it all falls down for me

they assume a level of ruthless competence

SKY NEWS: Armed man takes hostage at Kosher grocery store in Paris following a shooting

You have to remember, these same people manage to get such vastly complex projects as aircraft carriers funded, constructed, staffed and operated, as just a tiny part of the system.

Then of course there is all the associated technology in Jets, drones and the weapons they fire...

Do you think GCHQ/NSA just came together by accident?

Anyone come up with a satisfactory explanation for the lack of blood yet?

Yes, but they don't construct aircraft carriers etc without anybody noticing, do they?

For the most part the 'security forces', governments etc, who are always (the 'shadowy figures'?) behind these supposed conspiracies, just demonstrate that they couldn't organise a piss up in brewery

Pretty good cover buffoonery:

[img] [/img]

Bet it'd take some doing to arrange maintenance and paying the bills of a house like that mind:

[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QQz%2BKSkM%2F33Zj54uN2NY5mfdSZ9a014kNA7DwvICEt0o[/img]

I guess Junkyard is too busy thinking up his next bizarre allegation about me to answer my question, then.

Hey ho.

Lifer .. I do kind of agree.
I'm not saying that western influence has zero effect, just trying to counteract the two narratives that pop up on these threads.
a) "Its all our (the wests) own fault and nothing to do with religion" VS.
b) "All Muslims are 'orrible jihadists".

Having said that .. what they (the French jihadists) said is what they said.
We should listen because it implies that invasions, drones and misplaced hellfire missiles which kill innocent people aren't actually their primary motivation (despite what many western liberals seem to think).

eat_the_pudding - Member

To quote myself:
"For those who claim that the actions of western countries are mainly to blame, I offer the words of the french jihadists the other day "God is Great" and "We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad - no mention of drones at all - maybe we should take them at their word."

I'm not saying that the actions of western governments are irrelevant in this discussion .. just that when people murder others and then _clearly say_ they are killing for a particular reason perhaps the search for a solution would benefit from listening.

Do you think it's likely that they woke up one morning, saw this cartoon, and said "Well up til now I've had no issue at all but now, I'm going to flip out and go on a killing spree"? You have a hate-filled, resentful man convinced his faith is under attack, I'd say it's a given that this is the trigger but many things have led to the point where he goes mental.

I don't think it was a trigger as much as an easily identifiable and soft target.

None of my comments were aimed at you, though one mentioned your response to someone when you called them a nob and i said you were to polite. I saw little point in responding to your comments
You may also wish to consider why i said if in my responses to other posters and reflect ...or not as the case may be,

hey ho

I guess Junkyard is too busy thinking up his next bizarre allegation about me to answer my question, then.

Going to go out on a limb - I reckon he thought you were referring to the poster when you said "Nob"...not the person in the quote. That's what I thought at first too.

What I fail to understand is people on here that have a problem distinguishing between Muslims and militant Islamic fundamentalism..

Until we can make that distinction, our thinking is no different to the fundamentalists..
Unfortunately it would appear that even folk capable of intelligent debate are too lazy to grasp the concept so I reckon it's a lost cause..

If holy war comes, please don't forget Christian crusaders, that we brought it upon ourselves

13 seconds too slow DD but yes 8)

JHJ by running aircraft carriers do you mean scrapping the only fixed wing aircraft capable of using new carriers before their replacements are anywhere near ready?

QED.

"Anyone come up with a satisfactory explanation for the lack of blood yet?"
yes twice in this very thread... Do you honestly believe that the human body is like a plastic bag full of fluid and if you put a whole in it, it all just drains out and makes a big puddle .

clothing soaks up blood, bleeding can be internal, high velocity rounds can be quite hot and cauterise, blood vessels run unevenly round the body . Blood needs to be pumped by a beating heart or drain from a low point .

jivehoneyjive - Member
Anyone come up with a satisfactory explanation for the lack of blood yet?

Anyone who shoots, either for game or simply pest control, will know there is not a 'standard' amount of mess involved.

I am wonderign how many posters need to answer a question for JHJ to consider it has been answered

More importantly is is
1. More than for TJ
2. Less than for TJ

Lifer - Member

I don't think it was a trigger as much as an easily identifiable and soft target.

Actually, I think you're right there

To be fair, a 7.62 round does normally make a big hole and a LOT of mess. An AK has a decent recoil too (before the wargasm/walt stuff comes on I have fired lots of AKs, this isn't a guess).

Some of these answers are more satisfactory; but the whole instant death=stopped heart/lack of pumping blood thing is a little bit silly

I'm still not wholly convinced either way...

All this hand wringing over a malicious fairy tale is bizarre.

If you banned Islam in the west its followers could find their way out of the middle ages all by thelselves in some desert wasteland.

jivehoneyjive - Member

Anyone come up with a satisfactory explanation for the lack of blood yet?

Compare:

As grim and sad as it is to debate something like this with you as you'll always twist things to suit some conspiracy theory I want to respond. First off since you linked the Zapruder film, you'll agree the first bullet hits Kennedy in the throat yes? He can clearly be seen grabbing his throat in the footage. Why no blood?

As others have said real life and Hollywood aren't the same thing. Impossible to tell from the footage where the bullet enters and exits the poor guy. Could have gone through his cheek or his jaw. The exit wound might be facing the ground. Who knows.

That is easy it is because they used different shooters from different angles using different weapons 😉

That's a very fair point; however, given the comparative camera angles and backgrounds, blood would be less evident.

What concerns me most is the bright background in the Paris incident would highlight any spray of blood from an exit wound, yet apparently, there is none.

Appreciate it may seem macabre and disrespectful to analyze in this detail, but by the same merit, if it was a cynical act of political manipulation, surely we'd all want to know the truth...

Northwind .. I think I answered you already in the post above yours ..

I don't think its a simple matter, but I don't think you should discount _What people actually say their own motivations are_

Its not just the words.
They didn't attack a military outpost.
They didn't attack a state building.
They attacked a satirical newspaper who drew some cartoons.

Equally when Hitoshi Igarashi (Salman Rushdies japanese translator) was killed, and when Theo van Gogh was killed, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali threatened, was that all about western politics as well?

No, it was about apostasy and blasphemy and "offence".

A few things come to mind:
a) Many people seem to have a narrative about western politics which they try to impose on a series of events that may be more about religious dogma than they care to admit.

b) A lot of liberals could benefit from reading some things by Maajid Nawaz, Taslima Nasrin and maybe the ex-muslims forum about extremism, apostacy and blasphemy.

Its like CSI on here today 😆

There is no point answering Jive he wont be convinced by facts and reason

What's the best caliber for shooting terrorists then? 😯

What concerns me most is the bright background in the Paris incident

It was filmed in the same studio where [i]they[/i] filmed the moon landings.

FFS....

None of my comments were aimed at you, though one mentioned your response to someone when you called them a nob and i said you were to polite.

Ah. I completely misunderstood. My bad.

Apologies.

Junkyard
There is no point answering Jive he wont be convinced by facts and reason

I'm painfully aware of that.

jivehoneyjive - Member

That's a very fair point; however, given the comparative camera angles and backgrounds, blood would be less evident.

What concerns me most is the bright background in the Paris incident would highlight any spray of blood from an exit wound, yet apparently, there is none.

You're using the same argument to disprove my point, to make your point. Which I guessed you would do. I'll indulge you one more time though. First off if we ignore actual anatomy and use Hollywood logic a bullet hitting the throat would result in massive instant blood loss. Also, the bullet hits him from the rear, and exits his throat at the front. He is in profile, it's the perfect angle to see blood if there was any. You're not denying Kennedy got shot in the throat, and yet it's impossible to see blood from that wound in that footage. The footage you used to make your point. End of.

Reports suggest that several hostages, including women and children, may have been taken in a Jewish shop in eastern Paris.

The attacker of the kosher shop in Paris was seen carrying two machine guns, reports in the French media say.

Unfortunately looks like its kicking off again...

Anyone watching the coverage?

They keep showing some footage of some French armed police falling over on a slippery grassy slope. Not exactly inspiring confidence

Ah. I completely misunderstood. My bad.

Apologies.

jivehoneyjive, I hope I never get to a place in my life where my first thought on seeing pictures of a wounded man getting shot in the head while lying in the street, is start a discussion on a cycling forum about how convincing the footage is.

You utter utter bellend.

Some of these answers are more satisfactory; but the whole instant death=stopped heart/lack of pumping blood thing is a little bit silly

I'm still not wholly convinced either way...

Would it be wrong to use JiveTalkingBull as a human target to prove the point. It's not testing on animals just a muppet with a seriously deluded view of reality.

Interesting comments elsewhere on web discussing Donald Trump's assertion that this would not have played out the same in a country where the public were allowed to arm themselves.

I'm not sure it would have played out better, but it certainly would be different.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/donald-trump-labelled-a-moron-for-blaming-charlie-hebdo-attacks-on-frances-lack-of-guns-9964839.html

If you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out. Jive, you [s]are starting to[/s] look like a loony.

eat the pudding most Muslims despise Majid Nawaz and look at him as damaged goods. Initially he was with the Hizbutahrir the white collar reps of al Muhahjiroon and after a period in foreign jails he's back whiter than white.
The problem with muslim communities in the UK is that they are in effect leaderless. Local mosques have imams and committees who just want to bury their heads in the sand and hope it all goes away. Elected representatives one they've been elected become tyrants and reap benefits for themselves. Given all this the think tanks like Majid Nawazs are well out of touch with your average Muslim on the street.

digga - Member

Interesting comments elsewhere on web discussing Donald Trump's assertion that this would not have played out the same in a country where the public were allowed to arm themselves.

I'm not sure it would have played out better, but it certainly would be different.

When I heard about this I did think to myself, if I was a professional cartoonist I don't think I'd be poking fun at people who were likely to come and kill me (in the way they did) unless I could arm myself appropriately. And even then I'm not sure I would.

eat_the_pudding - Member

I don't think its a simple matter, but I don't think you should discount _What people actually say their own motivations are_

I'm not doing that at all- I'm saying you read too much into what was, basically, a battlecry. They didn't say "The prophet has been avenged and that is the sum total of what motivated this". Now I don't know what goes through the head of a religious nutter but I don't think delivering a powerpoint presentation of everything that has led to them flipping out is really on the agenda.

They didn't attack a military outpost.
They didn't attack a state building.

Rumour circulating that police lady killed yesterday was standing guard outside a Jewish school. Press did not cover that aspect describing the shooting as a result of a traffic accident. News says it's the same gunman who has now taken hostages in the Jewish supermarket

Elected representatives one they've been elected become tyrants and reap benefits for themselves.

I'm not doing that at all- I'm saying you read too much into what was, basically, a battlecry. They didn't say "The prophet has been avenged and that is the sum total of what motivated this". Now I don't know what goes through the head of a religious nutter but I don't think delivering a powerpoint presentation of everything that has led to them flipping out is really on the agenda.

[img] [/img]

jimjam - Member
When I heard about this I did think to myself, if I was a professional cartoonist I don't think I'd be poking fun at people who were likely to come and kill me (in the way they did) unless I could arm myself appropriately. And even then I'm not sure I would.

He makes the trite but nonetheless factual comment that when guns are illegal (for non-military/police), only outlaws carry them.

lalazar,
I realise that Majid Nawaz is not seen by many muslims as a particularly sympathetic figure.
However in the context of this discussion I think he has a lot to offer, and I think he has the potential to educate a lot of non muslims about how criticise the ideas of religion without including the people.

Hopefully someone will come forward who has the clout to encourage muslims to look at their own religion critically despite ingrained taboos .

(Majid Nawaz he did manage to turn the head of the EDL though 🙂

its taken me a few days (in between other jobs) to read almost all of the posts on this thread.
disappointed to see that there seems to be quite a few on here who have a very islamophobic attitude and clearly are quite brazen about this...i'm not going to name them though...they know who they are
someone at one point asked for this thread to be closed...but i'm glad the mods have kept it open as it encourages debate and it allows the likes of jambalaya et al to spout their usual bollocks...

digga - Member

He makes the trite but nonetheless factual comment that when guns are illegal (for non-military/police), only outlaws carry them.

Sure but when guns are legal, it's much easier to go on a killing spree in the first place. So maybe if some of the staff had been armed they could have changed this (and it's not that likely it would have been worse- not always the case). But what if somewhere else is a furious person who'd love to go on a killing spree, if he only had a gun? Access to legal firearms also removes one of the ways you can thwart this sort of attack before it happens- catching someone with a gun or sourcing a gun.

It's grim but would the Useless Glasgow Aiport Bombers have still used a useless bomb, if they could have easily got their hands on guns?

Complicated maths basically but certainly nobody can make a factually rooted argument that we'd be safer or less safe from this sort of attack if we could all have guns, it's essentially unknowable and this sort of attack is thankfully too rare to draw conclusions.

(But obviously you can use it as an opportunity to make a tasteless ideological argument.)

He makes the trite but nonetheless factual comment that when guns are illegal (for non-military/police), only outlaws carry them.

Not forgetting kids getting hold of their parents' legally owned guns.

Different yes, better no (IMO)