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How can they believe this is really what their prophet would have wanted?
[edit] live feed here;
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-30710777?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-30710777?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central[/url]
now reporting at least 10 dead.
What is it with people FFS there's enough ways to die in this world without adding 'you offended me' to the bloody list.
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[url= http://bigstory.ap.org/article/d06631a519ed40e2b00d23f7a68647e0/shots-fired-french-satirical-paper-say-police-witness ]http://bigstory.ap.org/article/d06631a519ed40e2b00d23f7a68647e0/shots-fired-french-satirical-paper-say-police-witness[/url]
[i]At least two gunmen have attacked the Paris office of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, killing a number of people, French media report.
Witnesses spoke of sustained gunfire at the office as the attackers opened fire with Kalashnikov assault rifles.
The satirical weekly has courted controversy in the past with its depiction of news and current affairs.
Its latest tweet was a cartoon of the Islamic State militant group leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.[/i]
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883[/url]
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How can they believe this is really what their prophet would have wanted?
They were told so by a plausible old man wearing a silly hat. A bit like believing a Richer Sounds salesman and spending a couple grand on something that sounds crap...
How do you know it was a Muslim attack?
How do you know they were Muslim?
Its fascism. Pure and simple. Whether you're espousing the ideology of national socialism, islam, or the tooth fairy, if you're prepared to do this, then you're a fascist. People need to wake up to this, and realise its what we're dealing with
How do you know they were Muslim?
Oh, I don't know? Its not like they've got a recent track record of this kind of thing, is it? Mind you, other likely candidates spring immediately to mind. Like..... erm...... errrrr.......
I agree. Cultural Marxism is in full swing.binners - Member
Its fascism. Pure and simple. Whether you're espousing the ideology of national socialism, islam, or the tooth fairy, if you're prepared to do this, then you're a fascist. People need to wake up to this, and realise its what we're dealing with
... or possibly a plausible old man with a silly moustache, then...
[i]How do you know they were Muslim? [/i]
From a news source on twitter: [i]Shooting at #Paris magazine Charlie Hebdo: Men apparently heard to shout 'the Prophet has been avenged'[/i]
I put the "muslim" in the title in quotes deliberately.
The comment was on the basis it was true.
Lots of people are very stupid and when you're stupid, you tend to believe any old toss that makes you think you can do something "important" or "significant" just by being violent in the name of something you wouldn't even give the time of day to if you had a functional-level IQ.
Its not like they've got a recent track record of this kind of thing, is it?
Who's "they"? Muslims? French people? Men?
The fanatics who do this kind of thing are about as Muslim as I am - they use some misunderstood parts of that religion to fuel their idiotic rage. Tying this kind of incident to one religion just plays into their hands.
Call them Islamists instead.
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Still, it's an ill wind...
The problem is that a lot of seemingly intelligent people get taken in too.
It's not about intelligence it's about having a desire to believe, to belong, to have a group identity and be seen to 'excel' within that group.
It's complex and writing it off as 'stupid people doing stupid things' doesn't allow understanding of why it's done or help prevent it happening again.
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[i]
Call them Islamists instead.[/i]
are they not Muslims then?
The IRA were always 'Catholics' - we didn't invent another word for the religious group they came from and (to a large extent) claimed to represent?
why not call them terrorists? Murderers? Scum of the earth?
The problem is that a lot of seemingly intelligent people get taken in too.
There's a clue there.
The French are screwed coz they have a huge number of muslamic people there, can't get rid of them yet can't integrate them.
Algeria was a pain for them but now with extreme radicalisation it is a time bomb waiting to happen. Surprise? Not.
The older generation might be docile but the younger generation wants to take over ...
🙄
It's not about intelligence it's about having a desire to believe, to belong, to have a group identity and be seen to 'excel' within that group.
Indeed. I've said it before - they're misguided. To claim they're stupid is to demonstrate ignorance and display bigotry.
why not call them terrorists? Murderers? Scum of the earth?
We can call them all of those things. They may also be Muslim
So Islamists aren't muslims then?
Are you going to tell 'em? I think they might take it badly, and I'd be worried about how they react, to be honest.
I think there may be issues under the Trades Description Act regard their name too. Breach of copyright? Christ only knows how that'll be avenged?
Indeed. I've said it before - they're misguided. To claim they're stupid is to demonstrate ignorance and display bigotry.
That's just dumb.
I agree. Cultural Marxism is in full swing.
That does not mean what you think it means and whatever the Islamists are cultural marxists is not one of them and it in no way supports this sort of thing.
Cheap digs are unlikely to be helpful at this time
are they not Muslims then?
They might be. They're also men, and bipeds.
Their religion is not the cause of this, so why is it relevant?
That's just dumb.
Pork Wah...?
Their religion is not the cause of this, so why is it relevant?
How do you know? have you asked them? If they claim it is then who are you to discount that as a motive?
Their religion is not the cause of this, so why is it relevant?
a) Yes it is.
b) its relevant because thats what they openly proclaim to be doing it in the name of
Which bit of that are you struggling with?
I know there are various versions of the religion same as there are various RC CoE etc for christianity. Are you saying fundamentalist followers of islam* shouldn't be called muslim?** Pretty sure westboro baptists mentalists are still called christiansCall them Islamists instead.
*if that's the right term
**genuine question btw, seeking more info/opinion
Girl friend is in Paris but other side of the City this morning. Worrying times.
You can flame @wasawas all you like but this is clearly an Islamist Terrorist Group/Individual(s) that has done this. Not rocket science. the magazine has been attacked before for publishing the Danish cartoons of Mohammed. It published cartoons mocking ISIS yesterday.
The elephant in the room is clear for anyone possessed of reason and logic to see; modern, tolerant, liberal, western society is incompatible with Islamic values. They do not want, let alone respect the freedoms we hold to. They have no interest in participating.
[i]Their religion is not the cause of this[/i]
They took a dislike to the type face in the magazine then?
"So Islamists aren't muslims then?" no but Muslim does not equate to Islamist just as Cyclist does not equate to red light jumper happy to ride into a crowd of pensioners on the pavement in the dark with no lights on while trying for a KOM.
Their religion is not the cause of this, so why is it relevant?
a) Yes it is.
It is and it is not and the accurate answer requires more nuance than that
Yes they do it because they follow a bastardised version if Islam but their religion does not make nor suggest is adherents do this
You may as well blame football for football hooligans
teasel - Member
That's just dumb.
Pork Wah...?
Ooh, that's a bit lean...
follow a bastardised version if Islam but their religion does not make nor suggest is adherents do this
Really?
bencooper - Member
They might be. They're also men, and bipeds.
There is a different. They are muslamic.
Their religion is not the cause of this, so why is it relevant?
It is. No ifs or buts.
I know coz I lived in one of the country before.
Want to get your head cut off? All you got to do is utter some words in that region and off with your head. But before that they will kidnap you for ransom then cut off your head. Especially if you are white.
I imagine the protests in Germany are going to get even larger.
jambalaya - MemberI imagine the protests in Germany are going to get even larger.
They have my support.
😈
Theres only going to be one winner out of all these events. It isn't going to be Islam/Muslims.
Arms dealers?
It is not helpful to have an us and them mentality as this is part of the problem and not part of the solution.
there would be no "winners" in a war Hora only bigger and smaller losers. I doubt anyone want to commit genocide and you cannot kill an idea or religion with better weapons than your enemy.
Really?
If it was the message of the religion every Muslims would be a gun totting suicide bomber
Even you must accept this is not the case.
Talk to digga though he let the white elephant out the room
Theres only going to be one winner out of all these events. It isn't going to be Islam/Muslims.
It's not going to be us either.
I imagine the protests in Germany are going to get even larger.
Can't imagine it will do Marine Le Pen and FN much harm in the polls either!
One of the gunmen was apparently shouting "Where is Charlie Hebdo?!"
Bright as a button there, then...
hora - MemberTheres only going to be one winner out of all these events. It isn't going to be Islam/Muslims.
I truly hope not coz all my machetes are in the other part of the world and I cannot defend myself with broom stick or cricket bat if we get our arse kicked ... 😯
Im a muslim - what does this make me?
follow a bastardised version if Islam but their religion does not make nor suggest is adherents do this
An awful lot of them seem to think that thats exactly what it suggests they do. Have you somehow missed whats going on is Syria and Iraq as well?
We need to stop fannying around with this wooly, liberal, lets-all-live-together-in-peace-and-harmony bollocks, and face up the reality of the situation, and to the fact that we're dealing with out-and-out fascism.
@ mashie Not sure but apparently i should be scared of you 🙄
An awful lot of them seem to think that thats exactly what it suggests they do. Have you somehow missed whats going on is Syria and Iraq as well?
No but you seem to failing to notice the billion other Muslims not doing this
We need to stop fannying around with this wooly, liberal, lets-all-live-together-in-peace-and-harmony bollocks, and face up the reality of the situation, and to the fact that we're dealing with out-and-out fascism.
White ones or Islamic ones as i can see them on both sides 😥
is that Not a bit Jihadi and extremist there Binners?
Us V them is the same attitude they have and I would say oh the irony were it not so serious
The elephant in the room is clear for anyone possessed of reason and logic to see; modern, tolerant, liberal, western society is incompatible with Islamic values.
Those'll be the Islamic values that kept science and mathematics alive while "western society" was in the dark ages?
Halliburton?hora - Member
Theres only going to be one winner out of all these events. It isn't going to be Islam/Muslims.
Can't imagine it will do Marine Le Pen and FN much harm in the polls either!
Or UKIP.
Im a muslim - what does this make me?
A potential Atheist.
It's not going to be us either.
No it'll hurt our freedom of speech and the meaning of democracy. More terror laws, more CCTV etcetc. On the ground more people voting for narrow-minded muppets of all religions and persuasions.
[i]Im a muslim - what does this make me? [/i]
same as the rest of us I'd imagine, just with a specific set of beliefs?
Can't imagine it will do Marine Le Pen and FN much harm in the polls either!
@ninfan, yes indeed, very scary times. France has the largest Muslim population in Europe. Things are going to be very very tense.
Im a muslim - what does this make me?
A turrorist, according to my perceived interpretation of the media. Which is a shame 😐
one could as accurately state "The elephant in the room is clear for anyone possessed of reason and logic to see; modern, tolerant, liberal, western society is incompatible with Biblical values."
The winners out of this will be the Terrorists behind it. They are attempting to create a climate of hatred and hostility against Muslims to effectively force the vast bulk of the religion into their camp . Unfortunately there are too many in the western world whose knees jerk too quickly and who enthusiastically play along with the terrorists agenda.
An awful lot of them seem to think that thats exactly what it suggests they do. Have you somehow missed whats going on is Syria and Iraq as well?
The British ISIS recruits were buying "Islam For Dummies" on Amazon before they went.
Those'll be the Islamic values that kept science and mathematics alive while "western society" was in the dark ages?
@ben - people tend to focus on more recent history and events
The British ISIS recruits were buying "Islam For Dummies" on Amazon before they went.
I think they had more than enough religious teaching from twisted Imams either in person or online.
No it'll hurt our freedom of speech and the meaning of democracy.
Personally I think that was fatally wounded when we made offending someone's religion a criminal offence!
mashiehood - Member
Im a muslim - what does this make me?
Just another person with a religious faith.
Bear in mind, my best friend is a muslim and I grew up with muslim friends in a muslim village.
Stay on course with none of the radicalisation then you are fine otherwise like everything else you ripe what you sow.
So what does it make you? Insignificant in the grant scheme of things like all of us or shall I say - Zombie maggots.
But what do i believe? The press and certain statement on here would lead to me believing is killing innocent people. Do i believe that its right to kill innocent people? Rape? children being used as soldiers? Ethnic cleansing?
All of the above can be associated with every religion at some point in time? But today im a Muslim and apparently I believe in all of the above being correct if I have to defend my faith?
NO - I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY OF THE ABOVE. I am a peaceful, law abiding muslim who goes against every belief these terrorists hold.
If I were the French government, I'd just concentrate on finding them, arresting them, trying and then gaoling them as per normal for murder.
The mag should go straight to press with a sarcastic report on the attack.
Everybody should
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The British ISIS recruits were buying "Islam For Dummies" on Amazon before they went.
Its frankly irrelevant where they get their teachings or guidance from, the end result is murderous lunatics. And it seems like theres no shortage of the same ready to follow in the footsteps. So what do you suggest we do. Wring our hands a bit harder?
No it'll hurt our freedom of speech and the meaning of democracy.
Personally I think that was fatally wounded when we allowed men to openly advocate the murder of Salman Rushdie and burn the Union flag on the streets of Britain without any consequences.
I am not sure that "offending " someone's religion is a criminal offence.
All organised religions are, to varying extents, cults, extortion rackets and ponzi schemes; pay money, obey rules, and your eternal soul will be saved.
In this day and age, it is high time we stopped allowing any religion to derail subjective debate. None should be pandered to, all should take a back seat to core values and laws. Any religion which seeks to undermine rights and equalities - free speech, sexual and gender freeedom - is plain wrong.
mashiehood - pretty much everyone understands that 'muslim' terrorists are not representative of the people who follow that faith and that not everyone who follows that faith is a terrorist.
I am a peaceful, law abiding muslim who goes against every belief these terrorists hold.
@mashiehood - we recognise you are in the majority, our issue is how we collectively deal with this minority.
Perhaps we should invade a few more of their countries and bomb them some more- though you term this hand wringing
I mean what else can you do with war mongering savages ?
I say we bomb them some more ..surely that will teach the western liberal way is the correct way and nothing like their way?
@Mr Whoppitt. The magazine immediately re-tweeted the ISIL cartoon
If it was the message of the religion every Muslims would be a gun totting suicide bomber
Even you must accept this is not the case.
I certainly do. This fact does not detract from the message however. Even apologists such as yourself cant ignore that (as with all religious texts) there is a significant amount of hate involved and any warped person or one of low intelligence will find ample justification for their actions. Saying their is no justification is simply wrong.
Perhaps we should invade a few more of their countries and bomb them some more- though you term this hand wringingI mean what else can you do with war mongering savages ?
I say we bomb them some more ..surely that will teach the western liberal way is the correct way and nothing like their way?
Wow such straw men and its only page 2
*high fives junkyard for use of the word "nuance"*
Carry on
Junkyard - yes lets kill some more innocent people. That will sort it.
"the shooters"
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I really don't believe in capital punishment but "a really good kicking followed by life in solitary" is looking increasingly attractive
Wring our hands a bit harder?
I suggest that "we" should just carry on with whatever "we" are doing. Unless you live in France?
Wow such straw men
Wow you sure defeated all my points there 🙄
Its amusing to see straw man abused as an ad hom ...oh the irony
Glad you noticed it More Cash 😉
[i]Unless you live in France? [/i]
and even then.
mashiehood - MemberBut what do i believe? The press and certain statement on here would lead to me believing is killing innocent people. Do i believe that its right to kill innocent people? Rape? children being used as soldiers? Ethnic cleansing?
All of the above can be associated with every religion at some point in time? But today im a Muslim and apparently I believe in all of the above being correct if I have to defend my faith?
Ya, but you are screwed. [u]Other religions had it the same way long ago[/u] so now it is the turn of your faith to learn. Coz those extremists have hijacked your faith by announcing to the world they are taking over and whether you like it or you will be dragged in with them ...
😯
They won't get far in that Citroen until a bizarre electrical problem stops them.
Let's hope the Gendarmerie drive a Japanese/Korean/German car so they can catch them when it occurs
The Muslim world can reclaim their religion by leading the charge to eradicate extremism. It can do so by going to the police with information of anyone expressing extremist views, it can do so by testifying in court against them. It can do so by whistleblowing on all and any funding / charities which it suspects are diverting funds to terrorists. It can do so by publically condeming these actions by arranging large anti-terrorist demonstrations in the same way they did so regarding the war in Gaza.
When oh when will moderate Muslims speak out against this vile terrorism?
NO - I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY OF THE ABOVE. I am a peaceful, law abiding muslim who goes against every belief these terrorists hold.
Oh.
Well maybe they could do it louder, and more often (every day perhaps) - or maybe walk around with big signs on their heads just to make sure.
What Binners said is quite right.
Every religion has it's share of nutjob fundamentalists, using their creed as a shield for whatever their beef is with the world. Doesn't mean all Muslims/Christians/Jews etc think the same.
Islam is an easy target due to some cultural practices in some Islamic countries that don't sit well in the west, all that female circumcision and public executions, you know the kind of thing.
Add in French Colonialism chickens coming home to roost et voila...