[Closed] Muslim Folks: help me defeat this xenophobic nonsense

(if this is too controversial mods then feel free to delete it - no explanation required)

Can you help me construct a valid counter argument to this nonsense

While I'm sure that constructing a valid, logical argument is possible, I strongly feel that it would be utterly futile given the audience. Listening to reasoned argument isn't what these groups are particularly renowned for.

Good luck though, I applaud your sentiment.

[i]My cousin just posted this on facebook:[/i]

just unfreind/follow or whatever and ignore them.

you will not change their views and it will just wind you up.

treat it like a particularly long 'everyone argues' thread on here and don't join in.

id warn him about the ray guns, he needs to know

seriously just link

and ask him if hes worried

BJ from the one the right wouldn't be great.
Mind you, not convinced about the one on the left either

*BANG* oh banhammer time

Sounds like a good reply

The issue came up in Oz recently
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/bernardi-calls-for-burqa-ban/story-e6frea6u-1225863347406
**WARNING LINK CONTAINS PICTURE OF MIDDLE AGED MAN IN BUDGIE SMUGGLERS
There was a suggestion that if people wanted to ban clothing that offended them they could start with the budgie smugglers favoured by the current leader of the opposition (likely next pm)

It's based on a false premise. There's no law against wearing a balaclava or a niqab - neither will get you arrested. But if you wear either, you might need to remove it to prove your identity. Simple.

Take a different tack. Tell them that the eye holes are bigger in the balaclava, and that alongside the mouth hole they'd probably be identifiable in that and not the other thing. Send them down that path.

A person wouldn't be arrested for wearing a balaclava in a bank or airport, end of topic.

Pic just made me laugh. It's just so damn stupid.

Or: "How come when Batman wears a mask he's a superhero, but when a Muslim woman does it she's destroying our way of life?"

Blimey!

As an ex-motorcyclist I used to be made to remove my helmet and silk balaclava before entering most shops / bank / post offices / etc because they needed to ID me just in case, this is understandable from the perspective of the shopkeeper etc.

How you get narrow minded halfwits to see the subtle difference between that and someone wearing a niq?b or burqa is beyond me. Good luck.

LOL - looks like she may have just pre-emptively unfriended me.

Funny how racists/xenophobes are all for free speech till someone uses it to challenge them. 😀

Eyeliner, your cousin not in touch with his feminine side or is make up not allowed in the circles he frequents. All men together, eh? Funny hand shakes and all.

[i]LOL - looks like she may have just pre-emptively unfriended me.[/i]

Ha! "You're not as racist/stupid/moronic as me so you're not my fwiend anymore!"

So black balaclava and some eyeliner would be ok? What about high heels as well, just to be sure?

While I'm sure that constructing a valid, logical argument is possible, I strongly feel that it would be utterly futile given the audience. Listening to reasoned argument isn't what these groups are particularly renowned for.

One of them was "Like if you don't think illegal immigrants should receive any benefits".

I said "they don't" and got replies asking if I paid tax, if I thought it was right that they used fake IDs to fraudulently claim MY money etc etc.

Pointing out that the thing they want is already happening (it's illegal, obviously, for illegal immigrants to claim government benefits. If they're committing fraud to get them then that's illegal too and it can and should be treated as serious crime) didn't lead to them saying "oh great, I don't need to be stupid any more". It just lead to hassle for me because they took my answer to mean I thought illegal immigrants [i]should[/i] be able to turn up and get a free gold plated mansion! 😕

I wouldnt even respond on FB, its his/her opinion, they are entitled to hold it whether you think its right or wrong.

she may have just pre-emptively unfriended me.

Funny how racists/xenophobes are all for free speech till someone uses it to challenge them.

as others note it is pointless arguing with idiots, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience - or fail to get the point as above over benefits and illegality.

I suggested to her that she creates a list so she only shares these posts with people that don't find them horrifically offensive.

She suggested that I just turn off notifications so I don't see her posts.

So I responded: [i]"I like hearing your news and there isn't a box for "Everything, except the hate speech".
You can make a list so that these posts are only shared with people who share your interests tho. I gather the most recent country to ban the niq?b was Syria, so maybe you can add that Bashar al-Assad chap, he seems nice. "[/i]

😆

It now seems to have vanished.

just unfreind/follow or whatever and ignore them.

you will not change their views and it will just wind you up.

treat it like a particularly long 'everyone argues' thread on here and don't join in.

This.

Trying to convince someone they are wrong and you are right, is a huge waste of time and energy.

It makes me laugh the lengths people go to on here to prove their point.

While I'm sure that constructing a valid, logical argument is possible, I strongly feel that it would be utterly futile given the audience. Listening to reasoned argument isn't what these groups are particularly renowned for.

A STW thread succinctly described 🙂

On my FB was an OZ show where the presenter donned a pair of tights over his head to wear in different situations as a 'look'- the results were 😯 and 😆 😆

Kudos you are wrong ane let me list the reasons why 😉

LOLZ at the muslamic ray gun clip from the EDL. You should definitely send that to your cousin Graham, she might re-friend you.

Trying to convince someone they are wrong and you are right, is a huge waste of time and energy.

You say this like I'm new here 😀

Secondly, how many bank robberies have actually involved the robbers wearing ?ij?b?

[url= http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/archive/2012/04/03/9627918.Robbery_gang_is_jailed/ ]Robbery Gang Jailed[/url]

[url= http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/archive/2013/07/09/10535534.Man_dressed_in_burkha_robs_bank/ ]Man Dressed in Burkha Robs Bank[/url]

[url= http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/archive/2013/06/08/10472761.Praise_for_public_who_tackled_burka_clad_raiders/ ]Praise for Public who Tackled Burkha-Clad Raiders[/url]

Want any more? I can give you plenty. There have been 11 armed raids in East Lancashire alone in the last four years where the prime suspects have been disguised in burkhas/niqabs.

If I walk into a shop, bank, petrol station or any other public premises where it might be deemed a reasonable need to establish my identity, wearing a head covering that only showed my eyes, I would not think it unreasonable to be asked to remove it.

Can you help me construct a valid counter argument to this nonsense to go with my utter disdain and feeling of disgust?

/Devil's advocate.
Doesn't the fact that you are struggling to construct a valid argument say something though?

[img] [/img]

I mean this hoodie wearer would in theory (were they not dead) be banned from Bluewater shopping centre, but I imagine wouldn't be. Which I guess is ageist / sexist / religionist or some other -ist. Or just profiling, which all good liberals are in theory against 🙂

But yes, I would have just de-friended the idiot.

If I walk into a shop, bank, petrol station or any other public premises where it might be deemed a reasonable need to establish my identity, wearing a head covering that only showed my eyes, I would not think it unreasonable to be asked to remove it.

No, it's not unreasonable to ask someone wearing a face covering (religious or otherwise) to remove it for security reasons. My understanding is that at banks and airports the niqabi can be sensitively handled by asking them to show their face privately to another female, without the need to offend their beliefs.

Doesn't the fact that you are struggling to construct a valid argument say something though?

No I have plenty of valid points, the main issues are my utter disgust and the inability to form an argument on terms she would understand.

OP, in principle there's nothing wrong with that poster, from a security perspective there is no difference. It's just a shame so many people are conditioned to automatically pick up on the ethnic / racial / cultural differences of the two people and use that as your primary filter for assessing what you see rather than being colour blind and seeing two people who have covered their faces. You've just fallen straight into the trap the SDL set for you and exposed your own inability to see people as people.

As for posting it on you've just helped spread the SDL drivel a little further, well done.

I would not think it unreasonable to be asked to remove it.

I'd say that the point made is a reasonable one

You do realise that Jim Morrison, Elvis, Lord Lucan and Michael Jackson (he's not really dead you know) regularly stroll about Asda and Macdonalds through the simple use of female Muslamic garb. Though they had to stop nipping into Bargain Booze to stock up on Stella, as that was starting to raise a few eyebrows

I think the face covering should be banned.
Integration is what's it all about. You can't integrate when you can't smile at someone in the morning.
How many bike friends have you made by a nod or an "alright"?
The veil is keeping women locked up and subservient to their " male masters".
If it was illegal it might go a bit of the way to letting these ladies mix with someone of their own choice.
I will add that I have never been a Muslim woman so not speaking from experience.
Lets give that woman in the veil a name and a face.

You've just fallen straight into the trap the SDL set for you and exposed your own inability to see people as people.

Their caption used "them" and "us", not mine!

As for posting it on you've just helped spread the SDL drivel a little further, well done.

Sometimes light exposes darkness. This is no bad thing.

zippykona: these British Muslim women seem happy enough to wear it:
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/beyond-the-veil-londons-burka-wearers-go-on-the-defensive-6532864.html

Who are you to tell them not to?

I think the face covering should be banned.

Integration is what's it all about. You can't integrate when you can't smile at someone in the morning.

How many bike friends have you made by a nod or an "alright"?

The veil is keeping women locked up and subservient to their " male masters".

the only woman I know who wears one like that fact that blokes dont oggle her but she says they stare even more

The face veil/covering to me is a symbol of oppression and I don't believe there isn't really a place for it in a modern secular country.
I have seen plenty of Muslim ladies (and a few from other religions)wearing just a head scarf. This I don't see as a problem; it is merely a symbolic gesture in a similar sense that wearing a cross or a turban is.

Whilst we can show our distaste for items of clothing (like the face veil) banning it would achieve little and probably prompt some people to wear it that wouldn't have done so. In a modern country it should just be reduced to occasions - like dressing for a wedding or a judges regalia and maybe one day it will; I'd like to think that British born girls would strongly object to such demeaning treatment.

Having said all that comparing it to a balaclava is just moronic.

The face veil/covering to me is a symbol of oppression and I don't believe there isn't really a place for it in a modern secular country.

Yet many women in a "modern secular country" CHOOSE to wear it.

Isn't it equally oppressive for women to be forced to wear revealing clothes and be judged solely on their looks?

My understanding is that at banks and airports the niqabi can be sensitively handled by asking them to show their face privately to another female, without the need to offend their beliefs.

I think this is true. They have a separate room for it. It's not like the billions of muslim women in the world don't travel by air anywhere.

I would not think it unreasonable to be asked to remove it.

Me neither but I am not a devout female follower of Islam being asked to do something against my religious beliefs.

Thing is, if you require a positive identification of the person then what do you do? Fingerprints I suppose.

Seems that the "choice" or otherwise relating to wearing a Niqab generates plenty of debate in the Muslim community especially in relatively secular societies. Does it help/hinder, is it oppression/protection etc...Happy to leave that debate to those concerned personally.

The SDL argument falls over very quickly - where relevant/appropriate means to check identify of niqab wearers are in place, so the argument that they pretend to make is non-existent. Its the beauty of free speech - it allows the stupid to condemn themselves.

In your position Graham, I would simply ignore it.

GrahamS - Member
Isn't it equally oppressive for women to be forced to wear revealing clothes and be judged solely on their looks?

Looking forward to Strictly then Graham!!!

Yet many women in a "modern secular country" CHOOSE to wear it.

Of course lot's of women choose to wear skimpy clothes, starve themselves and have body altering surgery to obtain an ideal western body image.
It's choice, but it choice based on peer pressure. Just like covering up.
I'm not sure either's particular healthy. But without out peer pressure you have no society. All too complicated for me really.

Isn't it equally oppressive for women to be forced to wear revealing clothes and be judged solely on their looks?

Sorry Graham!!! Didn't read the rest of your post! 🙂

In your position Graham, I would simply ignore it.

Too late - I'm now one cousin down. 🙁

Looking forward to Strictly then Graham!!!

I enjoy looking a shapely lass in a revealing outfit as much as the next man - but that's because I'm a modern secular oppressive pig 😀

It's choice, but it choice based on peer pressure. Just like covering up.
I'm not sure either's particular healthy.

I'd agree with that, but I don't think the solution is to make laws than ban women from covering up!

Do we really want laws to say: [i]"If you want to live in the UK then you can't cover yourself up. You'll be sexually objectified like everyone else. It's the British way."[/i]

😕

bencooper - Member
It's based on a false premise. There's no law against wearing a balaclava or a niqab - neither will get you arrested. But if you wear either, you might need to remove it to prove your identity. Simple.

This ^^^ kills it. Usual xenophobic bollocks based on a misunderstanding of the law.

Do we really want laws to say: "If you want to live in the UK then you can't cover yourself up. You'll be sexually objectified like everyone else. It's the British way."

<dons budgie smugglers>

Objectify away, laydeez!

Trying some kind of reasoned argument with someone stupid enough to post / share stuff like this is wasting your time. Do you really want to get into a public argument with your cousin.

Unfriend him or just change the settings to dumb down his(her?) posts from your feed.

As I said to her, I like(d) hearing her "normal" news. If Facebook had an option for [i]"Everything, except hate speech"[/i] then I'd have gladly ticked it.

But moot point now anyway - as I've been de-friended and possibly de-cousined. 🙁

Oh well.

I leave this here for anyone that is still on the "Muslim women need rescued from the oppressive veil" thought train:
http://idealmuslimah.com/dress/niqaab/239-the-niqab-fact-v-fiction-

It is remarkably easy to block the content of any given 'friend' on your list. Only half a dozen of my 'friends' nonsense actually gets anywhere near my news feed.

Only half a dozen of my 'friends' nonsense actually gets anywhere near my news feed.

Yeah but I [i]liked[/i] hearing most of her nonsense. How her kids are getting on, what she's up to etc. It was just the BNP-lite stuff I wasn't too keen on!

I think the face covering should be banned.

Seeing fat middle-aged men in lycra out on a bike ride - I wish a more of them covered up.

Has anyone ever been served in a shop,travel agents ,petrol station or Indian restaurant by a lady wearing a veil?
Probably not. Would you employ a lady in a veil,probably not.
I can't see how veiled women are free to be part of our society.
Of course veiled women can do whatever they please. Whether their husbands could live with the dishonour of their actions can sometimes only be the nearest acid bottle away.

Religious choice should not over rule law and security requirements. I'm sure most companies/institutions are able to handle these things sensitively and respectively. It's within their interests to do so.

However the whole burqa thing looks even more rediculous when you spend time in the Middle East. There you'll see the wife covered up while the husband is in full western regalia, Bermuda shorts, vest, sandles. It just looks rediculous and highlights the inequality there is regarding women in these cultures who obey (sometimes willingly, sometimes not, lets be realistict) religious rules created by men. There is nothing in the religion of Islam that requires women to cover up their face. It's an extreme interpretation. But live and let live, they don't agree with our 'western decadence', alcohol consumption and love of Pig products. Each to their own.

Has anyone ever been served in a shop,travel agents ,petrol station or Indian restaurant by a lady wearing a veil?

It would be rather inappropriate for a strict Muslim fundamentalist woman to have a job. If it's important for them to cover their faces then it is probably inappropriate for them to have a job. Which goes some way in explaining your observation.

Of course veiled women can do whatever they please.

That's nice

Oh I'm soery ,its inappropriate for them to have a job.
Nothing like freedom of choice is there?
Its inappropriate for some woman to enjoy sex so it's ok to ship them off to Somalia for a bit of surgery.

No need to apoligise, it's not for you to decide whether they should cover their faces or have a job, although I'm sure you think it is. Despite claiming "Of course veiled women can do whatever they please".

Meanwhile, in the real world... Working in a bank, what we did if someone came in with a niqab, was politely ask them to show their face to a female member of staff so they could be identified, otherwise they would not be served. It is really that simple.

Yes the veil could be forced on a woman- it does happen. But would banning it prevent that? Or would it meant that the sort of total **** that enforces it on a woman against their will, would simply not allow said woman out alone? Unintended consequences.

I was being sarcastic with that comment.
Many veiled women are not free to do whatever they please.

I'm always interested in why people defend the veil so readily and make significant assumptions about anyone who thinks there is a case for trying to see them phased out.

There are many things that religon has historically imposed on both men and women. I believe that the veil is something that we ought to not accept for a number of reasons, not just in the UK but globally. From all I've read it goes hand in hand with other more oppressive behaviours like FGM. To become indignant about criticism of the veil seems a poorly thought out position. The veil isn't about choice and to argue it is shows a real lack of understanding.

And many unveiled women are not free to do whatever they please.

It is perfectly possible for a woman in Britain to willingly choose to follow a strict version of Islam, which includes covering their faces and not having paid employment.

And many unveiled women are not free to do whatever they please.

So lets also call out all those other restriction of freedom, instead of using them to protect this one.

What does that have to do with the veil? That's a strawman argument of the most transparent kind. In it's simplest form either you think the veil is an idea we ought to leave behind us or you don't. I believe we should, it's horrible.

I'm always interested in why people defend the veil so readily

The veil isn't about choice and to argue it is shows a real lack of understanding.

People can wear what they want it has nothing to do with me or my tastes or preferences.

Hmmm...

(ps, what has religion got to do with Xenophobia?)

These threads serve no purpose other than to give the STW die-hards another opportunity to toss each other off whilst sat on their invented high horses.

And Ernie stop pretending you're a forward thinking liberal when you're in fact a self confessed far lefty.

Zippykona tell us which veiled woman you know that isn't free to do what she wants ?

These threads serve no purpose other than to give the STW die-hards another opportunity to toss each other off whilst sat on their invented high horses.

And Ernie stop pretending you're a forward thinking liberal when you're in fact a self confessed far lefty.

Well thank god you decided to come along and share your wisdom, but as everyone knows ernie is a lefty, you spunked your load rather premeturley.

Of course it appears on the face of it a free choice but I believe that it isn't. I believe indoctrination of children is what leads to the veil being acceptable and even argued for by the very people it demeans. To me it's similar to a JW refusing life saving treatment and 100% believing that it's correct to do so. Education and time will see the veil gone but it does require people to speak out and say it's not right. There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil. Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.

People can wear what they want it has nothing to do with me or my tastes or preferences.

it's not a fashion statement, it's a religious instruction to cover up so that men don't become enraged with lust. There is just no escaping that it is an example of misogyny in religion.

Wear whatever you like but just don't blame others when they want to check your for identification i.e. the same person ... 🙄

Try wearing full face helmet into a bank in the far east you will get pump action welcoming you. 😆

lalazar - Member
Zippykona tell us which veiled woman you know that isn't free to do what she wants ?

POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

signed by al-Qaeda Mujahideen and referring to another group, Lashkar e al-Qaeda.
Sorry ,I don't personally know any of the individuals involved.

There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil. Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.

Meanwhile on some other thread we have people dictating that it's totally unacceptable to not turn up to a business meeting not wearing a suit.
It's a complicated business this clothing lark.

Personally I find people covering their face whilst talking to me rude, in much the same way as I find people who don't take sunglasses off when they talk rude. So I tend to avoid talking to either, but that's just my personal foible. I'd be unhappy with a law requiring the oppressed fashion victims to remove their glasses though.

it's a religious instruction to cover up so that men don't become enraged with lust.

Of course it appears on the face of it a free choice

but I believe that it isn't.

There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil.

Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.

Some women are oppressed, some of them wear a veil some of them dont.
You want to refuse them a choice to liberate them.

IanMunro - Member
Personally I find people covering their face whilst talking to me rude, in much the same way as I find people who don't take sunglasses off when they talk rude. So I tend to avoid talking to either, but that's just my personal foible. I'd be unhappy with a law requiring the oppressed fashion victims to remove their glasses though

Well, it's rather simple for me if they cover their face while talking to me I either speak to them in a foreign language, or I just point to the floor in an abstract way while quietly walking away.

As for those wearing sunglasses I say to them they are not Elvis.

😆

p/s: coming from a Muslamic world we hardly interact with those wearing full veil ... they have their own world.

So from your link

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

They should cover up so as not to be annoyed. Are you really posting that as a defence of free will? It is not even directed at women, "Tell your wives and daughters" It is instructing men to make women to cover up. 🙄

Any links for the equal rules that apply to men in Islam, just so we can be sure it's is after all fair and equal and not at all misogynistic.

If you're a believer then I am sure you don't feel oppressed that was pretty much my point. If people are brought up to believe that the best way to avoid unwanted male attention is to wear protective gear then we seem to be missing the point. It reminds me of the crash helmets thing freedom to choose soon becomes compulsion and soon after, normalised rightly or wrongly.

I don't like the strict teachings of Islam, it all seems way too demeaning and as we know Islam means submission and obedience, so F A T.

MSP - Member

They should cover up so as not to be annoyed. Are you really posting that as a defence of free will? It is not even directed at women, "Tell your wives and daughters" It is instructing men to make women to cover up.

Any links for the equal rules that apply to men in Islam, just so we can be sure it's is after all fair and equal and not at all misogynistic.

My view is that it is pointless to question their religion/view as you have no rights to do so and you can't change their rules or way of life.

It is for their women to fight back or to stand up to them rather than letting outsiders intervene in their way of life/community/world.

If they want to oppress their women that's their problem but if they try to dictate their terms beyond their way of life/community/world to other people ... then other should be able to intervene.

Or start a full scale heavy handed war annihilating all to kingdom come.

🙄

That is one possible translation. It amounts to the same as "dirty slag, dressing like that, she's asking for it". But it can equally be translated to mean more or less "If you dress respectably and as a woman of faith you will be recognised and treated as such". It's a matter of much dispute.

Are you really posting that as a defence of free will?

Shall I take the attempt to move the goalposts as you no longer wishing to argue that it is to stop men being enraged with lust ?

If people are brought up to believe that the best way to avoid unwanted male attention is to wear protective gear then we seem to be missing the point.

It's a matter of much dispute