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If it’s self defence, then it’s not unlawful killing, pretty much by definition. (IANAL etc)
It wasn’t unlawful he was killed using reasonable force which is covers up to lethal force. Hence why he has not been charged.
Yes they might look at a civil case but won’t be for unlawful killing as that’s not a civil offence.
At least that’s how I understand it.
Without getting into an internet fuelled argument, he was killed unlawfully. No one can kill lawfully unless they have Home Office approval.
Reason I bring it up is there are cases that have been brought against the offender, whether you agree or not, and the cases have been heard.
But without backing any of my points up, I’ve done no research on any cases.
Just a thought.
He was killed unlawfully
Nope, don’t think so.
A person is guilty of murder if he/she kills a person unlawfully (ie not in self defence or defence of another or accidentally, each of which provides an absolute defence)
Sauce;
Unlawful killing is a coroners verdict and would not be the correct one for this case.
what they going to sue for loss of earnings?
even if they could they are not going to win
Dunno, it was a thought I had earlier.
I’ll read that link tomorrow, thanks for posting it.
'If' this ever came about, it would confirm that this country is FUBARED.
I mean, it has been for years but it just hasn't been confirmed.
Without getting into an internet fuelled argument, he was killed unlawfully. No one can kill lawfully unless they have Home Office approval.
Reason I bring it up is there are cases that have been brought against the offender, whether you agree or not, and the cases have been heard.
But without backing any of my points up, I’ve done no research on any cases.
Just a thought.
Law changed in 2013
CPS info;
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/self-defence-and-prevention-crime
Subsection (5A) allows householders to use disproportionate force when defending themselves against intruders into the home.
Although, the conduct of the suspect resulted in severe injuries to another or even death, this conduct may well have been reasonable in the circumstances.
Just been reading about the shitbag burglar....
What goes around etc etc...
Just been reading about the shitbag burglar….
What goes around etc etc…
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/pensioner-burglar-stabbed-death-named-henry-vincent-london-hither-green-kent-a8290576.html
Aye, the old boy did us all a favour, I’d gladly buy him a pint.
The old boy did extremely well to overcome the scumbags and not get hurt, and I won't exactly be in mourning, but the way some of you are revelling in someone's death is pretty shameful TBH.
yes but that is because they are the good people Grum and have proper morals unlike the scumbag, its what separates us from them.
See also killing terrorists without trial.
A witness said his alleged accomplice dragged him away towards a white van before leaving him for dead. He described seeing a white Vauxhall Astra van pull up next to a man “moaning and groaning” and ”bleeding heavily from his chest through his shirt”.
The van’s driver attempted to drag the man into the vehicle before driving off north when he noticed he was being watched, the witness said.
Well, that’s what friends are for, covering your back, ets...
but the way some of you are revelling in someone’s death is pretty shameful TBH.
Get real FFS. Junky & I have 1st hand experience of the type of shitbag that Vincent was (along with his family from what I've read)
Until youv'e worked with them, done your'e utmost to rehabilitate them & realised it's futile...you really have no idea have you?
Anyway, 'revelling' is hardly the right word. More 'thankful'.
I'm always the first to jump to the defense of folk who are driven to criminality by poor fortune... and I havta say, I don' t think any crook worth his salt would be seeking redemption if they got injured in this particular line of duty.
it's a tired ol' cliche but live by the sword and all that
Dead pikey burglar?
What's the problem?
You stay classy sbob :-/
On influences in society
Crime rates go up and down with the prosperity of the country. when people become relativly poorer crime goes up, when people become relatively richer crime goes down
Societies that are more equal have less crime
Societies that use jail more and have punitive approach to crime have more crime, societies that us a rehabilitation approach in the criminal justice system have less crime. Jails are simply finishing schools for criminals when all you do is warehouse them
All 3 things are well proven
People on here are confusig influences on society as a whole and individual responsibility. Two very different things
The chap that this thread started about is released without charge
Until youv’e worked with them, done your’e utmost to rehabilitate them & realised it’s futile…you really have no idea have you?
I've worked in Young Offenders Units and prisons, and I still think your attitude is deeply unpleasant. I worked with one young person who told me 'the only thing I've ever been good at is fighting' and that his dad had taught him the only way to get respect was by being the hardest etc.
He was a total PITA to work with and I never felt like I got anywhere with him. Found out he got stabbed to death by a neighbour during an altercation not long afterwards. Suffice to say I just don't recognise/accept the callous lack of compassion and regard for human life displayed by you and numerous other posters.
I wouldn't want to 'revel' in anyone's death, but having seen the impact of burglaries on innocent people i have no patience with descriptions of it as "just a property crime", and i have little sympathy for a man who preys on pensioners.
By extension of that thinking no prisoner should ever be let back in to society as your statement indicates they will reoffend and can’t b rehabilitated as their life has already gone wrong.
Continuing to miss the point. It is not about reoffending and reahilitation it is about going down that route from an early age due to socioeconomic factors. Yes there are people who have low morals whatever the upbringing and they will rob in their own way (burglary or fraud etc,.) but the others may not have gone to crime if circumstances were different.
Ohh, plenty to read..
Thanks for the links. 👍
You must understand I do not support the actions of burglar, I too believe “reasonable force to defend yourself and your property” is erm.. reasonable.
What intrigues me is the Law or Regulation of both sides of the argument. I’ve spend 80% of my working life pulling apart or check/challenge Laws and Regulation within the Business environment and it interests me how Laws are considered when applied to scenarios... and this topic interests me because I’m fairly sure there are a few cases similar where civil actions have been raised...
it's one thing working with scumbags, it' another if you have been on the receiving end of a crime like burglary. the level of stress it caused me has made me very ill, and I'm suffering all sorts of mental issues I'm only 18 months later starting to get a handle on. the fact they were not caught, and robbed us in the hour we were out of the house (therefore watching us) leaves me freaking out even now at the slightst strange sound outside the house.
whilst I would not reveal in their untimely end I most certainly think it would be a good thing for society. Burglary should have a fair higher profile and be a higher priority for our police. if two blokes break into your home with a hammer it should be up there with armed robbery
@bikebuoy - "lawful killing" is the opposite to "unlawful killing" which is defined as killing without lawful excuse and in breach of criminal law. So it doesn't mean that a judge has given the go-ahead for someone to be killed, i.e. it's not a pro-active judgement it's reactive.
In this case self defence is seen as lawful excuse, I doubt there was any intent to kill or even injure the intruder. The householder's statement will have been checked against evidence at the scene and the post-mortem results. A single stab wound to the front abdomen consistent with a struggle vs multiple stab wounds to the back for example. There's also the comment that "after discussion with the CPS no charges will be brought" would indicate that the legal defence of self-defence would mean that if there was to be a prosecution it would be very unlikely to result in a guilty verdict.
Continuing to miss the point
Continuing to have a different opinion to you. That seems to be the point. You’ve said it yourself ‘may not have gone to crime’ lots of factors involved. You stated that the experiment wouldn’t work as ‘Life had already gone wrong’ ergo, give a 30 year old criminal a life whereby he has no need to commit crime, your statement indicates he will still commit crime does it not? That’s the same as shrugging and saying ‘criminal going to always be criminal because, hey, brought up poor’
Glad the victim has been released...he did exactly what the law allows any of us to do and protected himself and his property...
...the fact that a grubby thief lost its life is unfortunate for its family but the wider public won't lose any sleep.
If you go equipped to a robbery with a screwdriver (offensive weapon) you run the risk of being on the receiving end of similar...that's classic reasonable force in action.
Hoping the family of the criminal will understand this in time but I doubt it...listening to his family bleat on the news the other day was nauseating, you'd think he had every right to rob someone's house and it was a legitimate career choice from the way they were banging on...
...live by the sword, die by the sword 🔪
See also killing terrorists without trial
No issues with that, either..
Until youv’e worked with them, done your’e utmost to rehabilitate them & realised it’s futile
Its not futile, and it is difficult, but it can be done.
Just caught up on the story in that Indie link - still amazed that a old guy of nearly 80 was able to overpower a bloke under 40, but glad that the right man won.
Dezb
Just caught up on the story in that Indie link – still amazed that a old guy of nearly 80 was able to overpower a bloke under 40, but glad that the right man won.
He looks like a large enough chap, perhaps there was a struggle and he just got lucky, for want of a better word. It reinforces my opinion that arming oneself with a knife for self defence is a bad idea, or certainly not a great idea because if push comes to shove and you're forced to use it there's a very real chance of someone getting killed or seriously injured.
Its not futile, and it is difficult, but it can be done.
Well yes & I didn't mean 100% can't be rehabilitated Junky.
The amount of re-offenders I saw coming back to the Cat C I was in was depressing.
The dead man was a career criminal, if you make a life out of visiting misery on others, eventually it'll unravel and you'll end up getting attacked by a homeowner.
Kinda feel for his family if they're good people, if they're of the same ilk then I couldn't care less.
Just a shame an old man had to suffer like this and most likely carry it with him. That's who I feel sorry for in all this.
give a 30 year old criminal a life whereby he has no need to commit crime, your statement indicates he will still commit crime does it not?
Nope, doesn't say that at all. I am making no comment on rehabilitation. I am saying they wouldn't need to be rehabilitated as they wouldn't have turned to crime in the first place with a different upbringing.
Some people would be criminals whatever, but if everyone had an equal chance in life I can't see as many criminals being around.
So you were replying to my original post that said it would be interesting to see how many career criminals would change their ways (if given the financial means to do so) by raising a completely different point?
i think we were at cross purposes somewhere. 😀 I don’t think we’d see less crime if all were equal. Just different types of crime being committed. People, sadly, will always find a way to screw each other over.
Funkmaster - its well proven that more equal societies have less crime and that as prosperity rises crime drops
The real hero in all of this is the burgler. Due to his sacrifice other worthless scrotes may think twice about breaking into a home carrying a weapon.
All in all a pretty good result all round..
Funkmaster – its well proven that more equal societies have less crime and that as prosperity rises crime drops
Do you have any links or reading material? Genuinely interested.
I think you should expect and be allowed to defend your own home. From what i gather the weapon was the burglar’s? More than likely a struggle happened and the burglar got off worse.
Unless something is being held back by the police, i cannot see a jury convicting him of murder.
Not off the top of my head funkmaster. If you look at the british crime survey you get a good indication of crime rates and you can correlate this to recessions and booms well. If you compare imprisonment rates and reoffending rates in various countries you get some idea of how different approaches give different results
Thanks TJ, it’s not something I’ve actually thought too much about until reading this thread. I’ll dive in and take a look.
Kinda feel for his family if they’re good people, if they’re of the same ilk then I couldn’t care less.
From reading the telegraph link a couple of pages back, it would appear to be the latter. Screwing over pensioners seems to be the family business. Plenty of local people scared to death in their own homes.
I totally accept that some people can change with the right opportunities and good rehabilitation, and that some people fall into crime out of unfortunate circumstances. It it sounds like this guy was a proper wrong 'un from a family of wrong 'uns and for that I find it hard to muster any sympathy.
I found out that one of the lads who did me over later died of an overdose. He was a career shithead from a family of career shitheads too. When I heard the news, my immediate reaction was to hope that the proceeds from my stuff helped dispatch him a little earlier before he had chance to inflict misery and trauma on anyone else. ****.
I imagine the burglar's family will get revenge on this old boy at some point. If they're smart it won't be traceable, but it'll probably end up with the old boy and his wife dead and someone in jail for life and some kids without a family.
Some kind of "code" or "honour" most likely. I doubt the kind of folk who spend their lives robbing the vulnerable are likely to sit be and be philosophical about it - maybe set up a non-profit to alleviate the poor conditions they and others grew up in.
It's all just..... sad.
Well, the old boy is now in a police safe house and his whole street has been threatened by the burglars family because they removed the shrine that the family left outside the house.
Screwing over pensioners seems to be the family business.
a relative apparently commented on facebook
"The old b******s deserve everything they get. An OAP a day will keep ur bank balance at bay"
I found out that one of the lads who did me over later died of an overdose. He was a career shithead from a family of career shitheads too. When I heard the news, my immediate reaction was to hope that the proceeds from my stuff helped dispatch him a little earlier before he had chance to inflict misery and trauma on anyone else. ****.
Same happened to a guy who jumped me in the street when I was 17. I was wearing a t shirt with a metal band on it, he didn't take kindly to that so thought beating me up for it was his only course of action
Call me what you like, but I lose no sleep whatsoever thinking about him dying like the peice of shit he was.
Unfortunately criminals like to think they can do whatever they want, so stealing from pensioners is a perfectly honourable career choice and anyone who hurts their own deserves vengeance.
Perhaps a biker gang should turn up in the street as security for a while
Perhaps a biker gang should turn up in the street as security for a while
If only they weren't all busy trying to sort out the knife crime issues. Even bike gangs have their priorities
My forecasting seems sadly accurate
Mr Vincent's cousin Phoebe Smith, 34, said whoever had torn down the flowers "should be ashamed of themselves".
"It's terrible, they don't understand that it's somebody's child. They're a memory of a son and a friend," she added.
She said Mr Vincent's family, understood to be from the travelling community, should be "allowed to lay flowers for Henry".
Where ever you are on the 'deserved everything he got' spectrum I think Mr Vincent's family have done plenty to help alienate the 'traveller community' and reinforce perceptions. What sorted of ****ed up moral compass thinks it reasonable to place flowers outside a house where the lad died theiving and threatening an OAP. To not be humilated and disowning a relative (with previous for the same) who died like that but want to place flowers down marks you as scum, pure and simple.
Whatever you might think of the family, it seems perfectly reasonable for them to grieve for him, especially his kids. I'm not quite sure why they can't do that wherever they live rather than going and imposing it on the people they terrorise - exactly what benefit are his kids getting from having that pinned up on the fence opposite the house he was doing his criminal stuff in? I'm guessing it's more deliberate provocation than that they don't understand it's unreasonable though.
It may just be internet hard man stuff, as I don't live there, but I'm not sure I'd have just left the tributes on the ground.
All of which reminds me of a brilliant quote from a grieving mother. The police turned up at his flat to arrest a well-known thief with a record of violence. He decided not to come quietly and, being a top floor flat, decided to make a Spiderman style escape over the roofs. Not being Spiderman, he slipped and fell to his death. His mother was in the papers insisting that despite a record of violence which included police assault, there was no need for the police to turn up mob-handed and in fact "he wasn't a bad laddie. He did some shoplifting but that was only to pay his fines"
The ‘tributes’ are clear intimidation and are done in the most cynical manner. Preying on the natural tendency of good people to be sympathetic if at all possible whilst being a clear ‘message’ to the locals.
The police should remove them very carefully and store them somehow to preserve them (after taking prints) then ask the people who put them there to collect them if they want to lay them somewhere more appropriate, after asking them to sign for them - we wouldn’t want to just give them to anybody after all. If they were then shown to a room where it was obvious cctv was in operation to collect the ‘tributes’ that would work nicely too.
Intimidation ought to cut both ways, but of course in this day and age it would be an infringement of civil liberties or some such other crap.
Also, it would be better if people were allowed to focus on the old boy, and not in a “free pints for life” way.
He may well develop issues with the fact that he has killed someone. The circumstances around it were entirely inflicted on him by a scumbag and his mate, but he might not be able to get away from the fact that he has killed another person.
He (and no doubt his disabled wife - they often go after the family as well, what with being plucky folk heroes and all that - vomit) will be looking over their shoulder for the rest of their lives.
There is a victim here, and it’s not the guy that ended up dead.
He (and no doubt his disabled wife – they often go after the family as well, what with being plucky folk heroes and all that – vomit) will be looking over their shoulder for the rest of their lives.
Good job the tabloid rags didn't plaster his face all over the place, should be a piece of piss to relocate him.
Good job the tabloid rags didn’t plaster his face all over the place, should be a piece of piss to relocate him.
Yes, that was a master stroke wasn’t it? Too busy giving it the “yeah, that’s the spirit that won the war” crap to give it a second thought. Wonder if they’ll find an attractive granddaughter to photo in a bikini for an interview......
How about this for a floral tribute
Seems like a reasonable outcome. Hope the old chap can enjoy the rest of his days
Let's face it, if you kill a burglar inside your own home, the prosecution have a big hill to climb to persuade a jury that it was murder. Despite the outrage over the initial headline, the result was really just a formality.
"Henry Vincent, 37, was already on a police “most-wanted” list for a string of burglaries when he was stabbed during a confrontation with Richard Osborn-Brooks, 78, early on Wednesday."
Him and family carrying out distraction thefts from elderly victims for 15 years.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-m-glad-burglar-henry-vincent-is-dead-says-victim-v7r8gp3c6
correct outcome.
It is the right outcome but there’s no victory here - it will most likely ruin the rest of the old fella’s life, and he will never be able to live in his own home again. Very sad indeed..
Mr Osborn-Brooks told Southwark Coroner's Court the 37-year-old had threatened him with a screwdriver, then "rushed forward" and "ran into the knife I was holding"
Not something you often hear from murder suspect who gets acquitted!
Not something you often hear from murder suspect who gets acquitted!
You’ll do anything when your’e stoned.
it will most likely ruin the rest of the old fella’s life
i reckon he'll be alright, plenty of people have had to do stuff like that and are quite content it was the right thing due to circumstances. More burglars/thieves need the same treatment..