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Right, let's forget about good taste and get right down to the important bit. Express your prediction of the outcome in no more than 100 words, we will seal it up in this thread, and when judgement is passed we'll all come back here and see who wins the Horrible Thing Sweepstake. Winners get one internet point, losers are expected to Think About It.
Me: I think the arrest strongly suggests that there's more to it and that it isn't de facto self defence- I'll go out on a limb and say the fatal wound/s isn't consistent with self defence. For my bonus ball I predict multiple stab wounds in the back.
100% . I remember Andy Mcnab, or someone similar being asked what he’d do if someone approached him with a knife, “run away” came straight out.
I agree - if it's just me in the house. It usually isn't though and I don't think my wife and kids would appreciate me running away and leaving them to deal with the intruder! Wife is military so might not mind as much, but my son only has basic martial arts training and my daughter (while quite decent with a handgun) has no self defence training at all.
Me: I think the arrest strongly suggests that there’s more to it and that it isn’t de facto self defence- I’ll go out on a limb and say the fatal wound/s isn’t consistent with self defence. For my bonus ball I predict multiple stab wounds in the back.
You've stolen my prediction - although I was going to add that there was some kind of prior relationship (e.g. bad blood or the like) between the victim and the person who stabbed them. If this was CSI then it'd be an attempt at the perfect murder i.e. lure someone onto your property then kill them, calling them a burglar and saying it was self defence. Although the perfect murder is easier for a 78 year old i.e. run them over with your car and blame your cataracts.
I normally err on the side of letting justice taking its natural course, except these days we don’t live in anywhere near a society that lets due diligence and trial by jury take place. We live in a society that is media intrusive and speculative and trial by media is the only important scoring for ratings.. the evidence is secondary to the amount of gossip and chatter mongering news such as this can invoke..
I think the arrest strongly suggests that there’s more to it and that it isn’t de facto self defence- I’ll go out on a limb and say the fatal wound/s isn’t consistent with self defence. For my bonus ball I predict multiple stab wounds in the back.
This.
The arrest does not suggest anything. They arrested as they found a guy a who had been stabbed in someone’s house, so they arrested the suspect that’s all.
Nowhere near enough details. But http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-41308817 was reasonable force. The details of the case were dreadful, and the occupants in fear of their lives. Shotgun was unlicensed and that was what the occupant pleaded guilty to. There was no charge of murder.
Minimum sentence is five years unless exceptional circumstances. Gregory was sentence to 10 months, and will be released presently.
One suspects there will be no charge in the case the OP has highlighted, but due procedure has to be followed.
I'll go with charges being dropped against the pensioner. The arrest is a precaution, not a charge.
Tony Martin (the farmer) didn't help matters by after shooting someone, calmly got into bed, instead of calling the police. I wonder if something similar, ie, a delay in calling the emergency services, happened here.
if the police turn up at your house and find only you and a stabbed corpse of course they are going to arrest you
It means nothing at all except they found you next to a corpse.
Nowhere near enough details. But http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-41308817 /a> was reasonable force. The details of the case were dreadful, and the occupants in fear of their lives. Shotgun was unlicensed and that was what the occupant pleaded guilty to. There was no charge of murder.
He got 10 months for having an unlicensed shotgun. The burglar who survived got 10 years.
Indeed see above edit. The MINIMUM sentence for possession of an unlicensed firearm is 5 years, and under exceptional circumstances, he was sentenced to 10 months. I think justice was served by that sentence, personally.
ony Martin (the farmer) didn’t help matters by after shooting someone, calmly got into bed, instead of calling the police.
The Tony Martin situation had quite a few problems and I think he was very, very lucky to get as light a sentence as he did. He did originally get convicted of murder (by a majority) but was reduced to manslaughter on appeal (serving 3 years in the end).
Northwind
Right, let’s forget about good taste and get right down to the important bit. Express your prediction of the outcome in no more than 100 words, ...
Not guilty. Based on BBC information. (94 words left).
I think justice was served by that sentence, personally.
Using an illegally acquired firearm - it was not a shotgun as it was pump action -then staying up waiting for them in order to shoot them three times in the back as they ran away and he got three years
its the textbook case of murder IMHO and he did not even get the minimum for the firearm offence. He also had previous as he lost his shotgun licence for shooting at and damaging the car of a scrumper - do you think that was "reasonable force" as well? I fee sorry for him but what he did was kill someone , deliberately as they ran away [ IMHO]
I know of a case where someone got 5 years for a concealed tazer[ also a firearm offence] that was not even charged so inoperable,.
Thanks for the linke @TiRed. I remember that but not the outcome. It looks like he was very lucky to have the shotgun even if illegally
Ridiculous nonsense. Much like everyone else in the civilised world it's obvious that, if you come into my house without an invitation and with nefarious purpose, your consequent injuries may cause death or severe discomfort.
Junkyard - I think you're confusing cases as the one you're talking about is for Tony Martin - not for the guy that got 10 months.
Tony Marin's a hero.
You’ve stolen my prediction
Yours?! I’ve been saying it for hours!
Really dont believe the old boy is the innocent party, but happy to be proved wrong
The old boys arrest is to enable investigation.
My prediction - he is not charged even.
Tony Marin’s a hero.
Does he ride one?
Wasn't Tony Martin (the farmer) simply fed up of being burgled?
Junkyard – I think you’re confusing cases as the one you’re talking about is for Tony Martin – not for the guy that got 10 months.
Yes you are correct, I am. Sorry for the confusion/error
Imho you should be entitled to kick the living **** out of anyone who enters your property in such a manner. If they end up dying tough shit. I know that having my wife and two children in the house would also up my kick the **** senses to nuclear level. Scum bags like that don't belong amongst law abiding hard working folk in my book. Flame away as I know I'm going to probably get some.
Oh and hoping not guilty.
Homeowner ..innocent
How do we know that the burglar forced the pensioner into the kitchen with a screwdriver? Are the police releasing this?
With regard to the original question.... It depends if they were trying to nick his bikes.
I'm with wrighty on this...
WTF are you doing in my home?
How do we know that the burglar forced the pensioner into the kitchen with a screwdriver? Are the police releasing this?
I think people who don't read the original post should be stabbed with a screwdriver, a rusty one too😲
The way I see it, the second a burglar chooses to ignore the law of the land and burgle a house, they should lose all protection of law - in other words, anything that happens to them is their own fault.
Don't want to get stabbed/shot/battered/killed/maimed? Don't break into houses. No excuses.
the second a burglar chooses to ignore the law of the land and burgle a house,
Just burglary? Why stop there?
in other words, anything that happens to them is their own fault.
What happens if they are running away? Can I hunt them down?
Also when you say "burglar" what do you mean. Someone trying to open my door by mistake?
As others have said. Unless the story as initially reported is inaccurate chances are he wont be charged. He has just been arrested whilst the police check that the self defence claims are correct.
BBC appears to have presented all the facts that they have been presented with. The Police will have more information but that may not be released for legal reasons. The only time you can really review these cases is post court case or release of all information.
Thats why I said you can’t take what the press say as there is no way all the information has be gathered in such a quick time
I also agree with wrighty on this.
Plus, It's one less shitbag for our understaffed prison staff to deal with. One less customer.
& before anyone says anything, in 16 years of being a screw, I never met a 'nice' burglar.
homeowner=gonna have to explain that it was ‘just there’ and he didn’t get it out of the knife drawer
Where has there been any mention of a knife being used? The house-owner is alleged to have stabbed an intruder during a scuffle, the accused was carrying a screwdriver as an offensive weapon. I would automatically assume the weapon used to stab the intruder was the screwdriver he was carrying.
I have access to quite a few very sharp items dotted around the house; several extremely sharp kitchen knives, three equally sharp axes I use for wood carving, a kukri that was my dad’s, that’s also very sharp, plus a four-cell Maglite. The axes would be the most problematic, because they’re kept in a wicker basket along with other tools, while the kukri is on a table upstairs, and the flashlight is just behind me where I’m sat on the couch, so my first option would be beating any would-be intruder/assailant senseless with that, other options depend on location. Retreating would present problems, the front door is usually locked, the back door mostly unlocked except when the house is empty, an intruder is most likely to enter into the kitchen, and I’d be unlikely to be able to get the front door unlocked before becoming a victim. Also, my partner would also be with me in the house, and I would not, could not allow her to be put at risk by doing a bunk.
Scum bags like that don’t belong amongst law abiding hard working folk
you know you are advocating an illegal assault that may lead to murder neither of which can leave you in the pack of law abiding folk
This is like when ISIL behead someone and people say what a monster lets behead him
Two wrongs dont make a right- we teach our kids this FFS- and entering my house is not something that should be punishable by death by extreme beating. That makes you no better than them in the eyes of the law. You are closer to them than to law abiding decent folk.
The sit down to pee brigade on here would likely put on a pot of lentils for the poor 'victims of society' whilst letting them have their way with their partners.
2 burglars force an elderly man into his kitchen, one of them has a screwdriver. There's a scuffle which ends up with one of the burglars being stabbed with his own screwdriver, they make it outside where he collapses, and a witness sees the other trying to get him in a van before giving up and driving off.
2 options; it's a straightforward defence, or there's something else going on entirely, hence the air quotes around burglar.
I'm voting option 1, and he gets off.
I never met a ‘nice’ burglar.
Years back I had my collar felt following an altercation and was finger printed. They took a print of the outside edge of my hand and little finger, I asked why. Apparently thieves will often put their hand up against a window to shade it so they can get a good look through it before breaking in. "I've never met an intelligent burglar" said the copper..
You’ve stolen my prediction
STAB HIM!
Burgler looks like he got an unplanned comeuppance and I fear that the old boy will suffer a stroke or heart attack through stress. Nobody wins.
Oh and to slightly misquote Mr Garak from DS9 when asked if he’d shoot a man in the back “we’ll, it is the safest way, isn’t it?”
So presumably all the armchair vigilantes are happy with Kenny Noyes first murder acquittal?
The old boys arrest is to enable investigation.
This is correct.
I heard an interview on the radio earlier with - I don't know, the chief of police or the investigating officer or something, I'm not sure - and paraphrasing he said "a man has died so we have to make an arrest." Which makes perfect sense, he has to be questioned even if no charges are ultimately laid.
Having been the victim of a burglary that left me ****ed up for years I'm pretty much in the "one less scrote" camp, I appreciate that people fall on hard times and they can and do get rehabilitated but from personal experience I find it hard to be sympathetic. Sorry.
I'd like to think if I confronted a burglar in my home, I would tell them to **** off and not come back.
if they then came at me , I would like to think I would hit them / stab them etc etc with the biggest / sharpest thing I could get my hands on at that moment.
Apparently thieves will often put their hand up against a window to shade it so they can get a good look through it before breaking in. “I’ve never met an intelligent burglar” said the copper..
Well no, the burglars the copper has met have been caught so are obviously a bit shit at what they're doing...
I'm not promoting good burglary by the way, as for the old fellow, not enough info available, a dead person at your home would get you arrested until the issue could be resolved, also may be for his own safety as the other one got away.
"Two wrongs dont make a right- we teach our kids this FFS- and entering my house is not something that should be punishable by death by extreme beating. That makes you no better than them in the eyes of the law. You are closer to them than to law abiding decent folk."
Oh do get a grip!
I don't recall having a criminal record for burglary, so therefore I'm already better than this lot.
Go view that bike thieving video I posted earlier and explain to me the utter contempt they show for the owner of the property. They don't deserve to walk amongst good hard working normal folk, and genuinely imho if they get a good ****ing hiding in the pursuit of other people's property then so be it.
Just as a thought what do you think would've happened in that vid if he'd gone out to confront them in broad daylight?
Still haven' sussed the ****ing quote button!
Did anything concrete come of this
Probably first time I've ever agrees with the Tories!
Bordinbob yes it's called householders self defense , I'll paraphrase as I'm on holiday but basically for force in your own home , any force used in self defense other than grossly disproportionate force is reasonable self defense, and therefore lawful. I am running a murder case right now that is strikingly similar to this one. It is standard to arrest the householder for questioning . Police always in my experience arrest for gbh untill a medic has pronounced death then change it to murder. ( No idea why my typing has changed !)
Me: I think the arrest strongly suggests that there’s more to it and that it isn’t de facto self defence- I’ll go out on a limb and say the fatal wound/s isn’t consistent with self defence. For my bonus ball I predict multiple stab wounds in the back.
I will go with being there by invitation, and the burglary just being a cover story.
Whether that turns out to be true or not, it is clear that if you want to commit murder, claiming they were burglarising you is as effective in the stw juries eyes, as claiming the sun was in your eyes to a jury of top gear fans.
chooses to ignore the law of the land (Insert law here), they should lose all protection of law – in other words, anything that happens to them is their own fault.
Is this for all laws, i.e. if someone chooses to speed in their car I can shoot at them as it is their own fault?
If it doesn't cover speeding then which laws that people ignore can we get all vigilante about, is it just burglary in particular?
Would there be a list somewhere?
I will go with being there by invitation, and the burglary just being a cover story.
Well that explains why the other one hasn’t handed himself in as he was clearly innocent.
What evidence is there of a second burglar?
The press say the burglars accomplice had gone upstairs, where his wife was probably still in bed from when they were asleep before being woken up.
He was downstairs with an armed burglar, so I would have thought it would be a fair to assume that he would think that the accomplice was armed as well.
I would imagine that the only natural thought for him would be the need to dispatch the burglar in the kitchen as quickly and decisively as possible to get upstairs to protect his wife.
And at his age his action against someone 40 years his junior must be considered reasonable, if he did anything less he would risk getting involved in a fight with him and then maybe not ever getting upstairs to his wife.
Surely no-one on this forum, faced with having their elderly wife upstairs, would do anything different?
What evidence is there of a second burglar?
Bored already Scotroutes?
Surely no-one on this forum, faced with having their elderly wife upstairs, would do anything different?
I hadn't realised that you were a witness.
I will go with being there by invitation, and the burglary just being a cover story.
They could have been there by invitation (eg. blokes he met at the pub) who then turned nasty and decided to rob him / were already targeting him. So many variables it's hard to have any real strong opinion without more info.
He’s been bailed.
it’s hard to have any real strong opinion without more info.
Nah, we're at four pages of expert opinion already!
Another anecdote, a dad at our kids' school (a doctor and amateur sportsman) heard a couple of junkie burglars breaking into his home, where he lived with his wife and two kids.
He went downstairs, very scared obvs, and gave them a sound thrashing with a hockey stick that he kept beside the bed.
He was treated sympathetically by the police and charges were not brought against him.
It didn't make the Daily Mail for some reason.
cha****ng
it’s hard to have any real strong opinion without more info.
Nah, we’re at four pages of expert opinion already!
There are two conversations running concurrently by the looks of it - people debating the case (pointless) and people debating the "what would you do" / "what should you be allowed to do" hypotheticals.
Is this for all laws, i.e. if someone chooses to speed in their car I can shoot at them as it is their own fault?
If it doesn’t cover speeding then which laws that people ignore can we get all vigilante about, is it just burglary in particular?
Would there be a list somewhere?
I'm talking specifically about burglary here as there is absolutely zero grey area. There's intent, there's no ambiguity (you don't burgle a house by accident) and there's a very defined victim. So yeah in this instance, absolutely at point of illegal entry, all protection of law for the burglar should cease.
I see some of the usual internet tough guys are positively tumescent from fantasising about carrying out their own vigilante murder. Hilarious.
I hadn’t realised that you were a witness.
I am truly humbled now...
not.
I’m talking specifically about burglary here as there is absolutely zero grey area. There’s intent, there’s no ambiguity (you don’t burgle a house by accident) and there’s a very defined victim. So yeah in this instance, absolutely at point of illegal entry, all protection of law for the burglar should cease.
I don't think it's quite that clear cut. Now any sensible burglar you'd think would run as soon as they'd been discovered by the homeowner. If they don't, and if they are carrying a weapon (although that's also a bit grey as whatever tools they've used to break in will most likely be use-able as a weapon too), then I think most means (or weapons) a homeowner then uses are probably justified - at least until the point that the burglar flees. So shoot or stab an armed burglar in the front then you're probably going to be ok legally, but shoot or stab them in the back and you've probably got problems.
The guy called in the break in by 2 men. He described what had happened and when the police attended they found the dead guy in the street along from the break in on the way there, with a witness saying they saw another man trying to get him into a vehicle before leaving him behind. The old guy didn’t know the man was dead when he called the police.
All this was on the BBC website yesterday.
“I’ve never met an intelligent burglar”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-43627504
Released on bail pending further investigation. Opinion pendulum swings away from ‘more to it than meets the eye’ and towards ‘plucky and lucky have a go hero’...
epicsteve
I don’t think it’s quite that clear cut. Now any sensible burglar you’d think would run as soon as they’d been discovered by the homeowner.
Even that's an assumption that mightn't play out - what if the burglar's preferred or only escape route is blocked by you? Are you going to have a conversation? What if there's another burglar elsewhere in the house who's got the valuables? He might not want to abandon his partner.
So shoot or stab an armed burglar in the front then you’re probably going to be ok legally, but shoot or stab them in the back and you’ve probably got problems.
What about the side or the flank? What if they knock you to the ground and are lying on top of you? Can you stab them in the back then?
There's probably no way to know how these things play out.
“I’ve never met an intelligent burglar”
Maybe the smart ones don't get caught?
Being the fence does seem like the better option though, if you had to choose.
Oh do get a grip!
What a strange riposte form the man who advocates murder by beating, I guess you had nothing rational as a response so had to go with childish.
Two wrongs dont make a right- we teach our kids this FFS- and entering my house is not something that should be punishable by death by extreme beating. That makes you no better than them in the eyes of the law. You are closer to them than to law abiding decent folk
Unfortunately for you all of this is true
The BBC have the guy's photo up on the story now - looks like a hero to me, I can barely stomach one pint of guiness of an evening nevermind two simultaneously...
It didn’t make the Daily Mail for some reason.
Was the reason that no one died?
Could that be the reason?
Possibly?
Was the reason that no one died?
One of the burglars was left with a number of broken bones.
My point was that the common sense outcome doesn't fit with the "Broken Britain" hell-in-a-handcart narrative that our right-wing press and internet bellends like to write about.
It didn’t make the Daily Mail for some reason.
No immigrants involved?
The object of the robbery wasn't a rare and collectible Franklin Mint plate featuring Princess Diana?
In my small minded and limited opinion, you lose your rights as soon as you break the law. If i was in this guys shoes i would have did the same thing. The human race needs a bit of thinning , let's start with the bottom feeders who have nothing to offer, unfortunately this one didn't die. My tax money will now go to rehabilitate him and send him off on his merry way to be in and out of the system until he's taken out by another of the same like,or old age.
Maybe i should have saved this post for the dailyrag.
The object of the robbery wasn’t a rare and collectible Franklin Mint plate featuring Princess Diana?
He said "Mail", not "Express"
The BBC have the guy’s photo up on the story now – looks like a hero to me
Overpowered/scared off 2 burglars.... looks exactly like that kind of ninja.
He said “Mail”, not “Express”
The ever-impartial Express is running with "Pensioner arrested for 'murder' of burglar" today. They must be so happy to finally have a new headline after all these years.
Burgler looks like he got an unplanned comeuppance and I fear that the old boy will suffer a stroke or heart attack through stress. Nobody wins.
Except for everyone else in the neighbourhood, which has suffered from a spate of burglaries. What are the odds that this crime wave will stop? Old chap did good, and if it comes to crowd funding his legal defense I will be chipping in.
If i was in this guys shoes i would have did the same thing.
Well with that sentence alone you have condemned yourself as the lowest of the bottom feeders 🙂
The ever-impartial Express is running with “Pensioner arrested for ‘murder’ of burglar” today. They must be so happy to finally have a new headline after all these years.
On a tangent, the Express has been sold to Mirror Group, so expect fewer Princess Di & weather scare story splashes in future. Interested to see if it stays so rabidly pro-Brexit.
Well with that sentence alone you have condemned yourself as the lowest of the bottom feeders
So what do you do, just stand there and watch them do anything and everything to you and your family?Maybe help them carry out the telly? What if kids are in the house? As if the armchair pacifists on here wouldn't try to do anything if people came barging into their homes shouting threats.