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Had a multifuel stove fitted a few months ago. we bought the stove, guy came and fitted, charged us £1800 for the pleasure (£900 upfront for parts, liner ect.), which we didn't think too bad.
The house is a late 1700's sandstone built cottage, looked like the firebricks in the fireplace had collapsed, so ha that cleared and made safe if needed.
Since it was installed, we went through the usual new stove odours, which lasted about a week, but now, when you leave the room and come back in, there is quite a sooty odour, I think from the original chimney.
We've had a fair amount of sooty crap fall onto the top of the stove over the initial few weeks, I thought due to heating up the chimney and loosening whatever is there. But this hasn't stopped, sunday we had a bit a little smaller than a golf ball fall and roll out onto the floor, along with a load of soot. Thankfully it didn't get to the sofa.
I got in touch with him about a month or so ago to ask what could be done and whether he swept the chimney. he said they could only get halfway before the brushes couldn't go any further. Sounded fishy to me, he also offered to fit a plate at the base of the chimney to prevent stuff falling into the fireplace. As a lay, I'm not sure about having all the sooty crap held against a hot flue pipe and the risk of fire.
I was having a look up inside the chimney the other day, stuck my hand up and there's about 0.5-1cm depth soot in the inside. Not convinced it's been swept at all, so told him just that, and my concerns about it.
So, he's coming back to give it a second sweep, as far as he can, and fit a plate.
This is going to be a WWSTW do. Do I let him back in, or do I just get someone else to sweep the chimney with the flue in there? can that be done, or do I have to have the liner removed first, then reinstalled?
Bit concerned that he'll not do the job properly, but I have little experience of what needs to be done so may be worrying about nothing. I'm also concerned about the sooty smells and the possible health risks. its different if you have an open fire, all of the gassess and soot go up the chimney, but with a lined stove in a chimney, there's no updraft in the chimney from the stove, so any 'degassing' of soot/tar deposits will likely come into the room?
We do have a CO detector and that's not picked anything up.
any advice?
If he could only brush so far, how did he get the liner in? And why is the liner not insulated with vermiculite or similar? Doesn't sound like a great job TBH.
I would get another sweep in and get it done properly. That amount of soot poses a real risk of a chimney fire.
Not sure what he has actually done?
If he's fitted a liner he could of swept the chimney surely?
If he comes back all he could do is sweep the liner which will be clean. The problem seems to be soot in the original chimney. Sounds like you might have to remove the liner and sweep all the crap out.
Sounds like another HETAS rip off merchant.
You could get yourself a cheap endoscope and have a look at what's going on up there.
Yeah. Definitely get him back and sweep it again and fit a plate. Why wouldn't you?
I wouldn't worry about the sooty smells. The chimney has been disturbed so you'll have it a while. Especially without that plate.
Should have a register plate at the bottom as said above.
Where are you based? I have two contacts who may be able to help, depending on where you are.
But I would find a decent reputable local chimney sweep, since you will need it sweeping annually anyway.
Ok, Thanks.
so it's either a rip off and not done properly, or not to worry, get a plate fitted and all OK?
Yeah. Definitely get him back and sweep it again and fit a plate. Why wouldn’t you?
Only reason I'd not is if it's not worth getting him back to do it. Then I'd get someone else in and seek advice and fixing. Chances are though, if i were to ask any other installer to rate the installation, they'd come up with a nice bill to fix the shoddy work. It's rubbish not knowing who you can trust to do a job properly.
Did he give you all the HETAS stuff to go with the install?
No, nothing as far as I know.
Should be a metal plate fixed near the stove with his contact details etc on it plus a certificate for Building Control (and your house insurance people).
And why is the liner not insulated with vermiculite or similar?
Didn't think that was recommended as it absorbs water and can freeze, splitting chimneys open (in extreme cases). IIRC ours just has one bag's worth weighing the register plate down.
As for stuff falling down chimneys in old houses, all four of our Victorian chimneys have a continual small trickle of stuff (old mortar, bits of brick etc) falling down them all year round. Sweeping makes no difference, they're just slowing decaying. Our fireplace is lined, but stuff still falls down the sides of the liner.
From what i remember of a course i went on as few weeks ago the liner needs insulating if the chimney is exposed to keep the temperature of the gases high enough to make the stove draw properly and prevent condensation in the liner. If the gasses cool down enough then they can slow down and cause a build up behind which can cause puffs of smoke to be emitted from the vents on the stove.
If its an internal chimney then you may not need insulation.
For what you paid you should certainly have got a registry plate - which, as already stated, is part of the building regs requirements. You should NOT be getting stuff falling on the stove.
Installer sounds rather dodgy.
Re the soot smell, when the chimney cools down cold air can come down it and bring the sooty smell. IF you had a registry plate this would be stopped (you may also need to shut off the air controls on the stove.
AFAIA a liner shouldn't need insulating unless the chimney/flue/liner is too short.
The chimney is internal, part of a 4 compartment chimney shared between us and our neighbour (who don't have a fire).
I thought certification was only required in england and if in scotland for stoves >5kW? ours is a small one, <5kW.
And the soot smell is only when the stove is on and at temperature.
If a plate will stop stuff falling and the smell, then it'll be worth it.
So liner heats up and soot starts emitting smell - hopefully the registry plate will fix that.
Yep, HETAS is an English thing. Not relevant in Scotland, but compelling with building controls and having a safely installed stove definitely applies!
He can't sweep it unless he removes the liner. He won't remove the liner for free. It does feel like he neglected to sweep before the liner went in, which is a beach of the regs I believe. You'll never get all the debris out, but it sounds like you have to much.
May be time to find another sweep, hope the liner comes out undamaged and can go in again.
First step is to STOP using the stove, then find someone competent to sort it out.
The liner does not need to be insulated on a two story property unless you are a wet wood slumber merchant, in which case you shouldn't be having a stove.
I've made enquiries with a couple of companies to see what they suggest. it seems that he should have really swept the chimney before putting the liner in, but in reality it looks like he put the liner in then gave it a bit of a sweep out.
It's not as if he could have claimed to think that the chimney had been swept either, it was pretty much sealed up with fallen firebricks before, so there was no access.
The disintergrating chimney doesn't sound good (I can't see how they were firebricks) - especially as you share the chimney with your neighbours.
There may be a possibility that there is a hole between the flues and the smell is coming from their side. Forget all that... neighbours don't have a fire.
Sounds like a bit of a botch job unfortunately for you.
I think you have the responsibility to your neighbour to stop using it, never mind yourself.
I did an insurance job a few years back where this happened, the soot and tar left before relining went on fire.
Because it's relatively starved of air, it will smoulder for ages. The house was trashed with smoke damage.
The fire brigade also had to smash into the stack inside the loft. Messy!
Plenty of clueless sweeps out there, oblivious to tar build up.
Sounds like you really need the liner taken out, chimney powrrswept with wire / chains if necessary, and put back in properly. Register plate would be a nice finishing touch too.😀
looking that way now isn't it.
The disintergrating chimney doesn’t sound good (I can’t see how they were firebricks) – especially as you share the chimney with your neighbours.
possibly not firebricks, but built up inside the fireplace to pack out one of those old cast iron fireplaces. it had collapsed a bit. I didn't want to move it incase more fell, so left it in the hands of someone with (I hoped) insurance.
turned out they were just loose and easily cleared out, revealing a fairly standard brick fireplace set in the sandstone chimney.
cheers all for your input.
I'd be tempted to see if you can get the install checked independently (do HETAS check stuff themselves?) You shouldn't be able to access the chimney to even see the soot as the register plate should block off the opening. I'd also want to check the liner is actually full length if he is claiming he couldn't sweep all the way up! Its not like he can sweep it retrospectively with a liner in the way!
Not sure what he's done. Can you put a photo up or above the stove? Don't know why you'd need to take off the liner to sweep it
They're talking about sweeping the original flue, not the liner. Obvs you can't sweep the original flue when there's a liner going up it!
yep, what sharkbait said.
I've been in touch with HETAS for some advice, they forwarded complaint forms to me, and not much in the way of advice.
I was in touch with a sweep, to try to get an estimate cost, he said that it's normally a prerequisite to sweep a chimney before installing a steel liner.
Once I've got feedback from HETAS, my next step is to get back in touch with the installer and give him a list of what needs to be done.
Best of luck that you get some joy. I suspect you'll be left unsatisfied though,it seems so many trade certification schemes provide no protection or assistance to the home owner.
A second opinion from a decent guy seems the way to proceed, fingers crossed it's not as bad as we all think!
Wonder how easy it would be getting the liner out intact and not damaged... Pretty sure ours would be buggered as installer had a ball ache putting it in but hopefully yours will be ok!
Register plate was fitted and vermiculite insulation too.
Hope yours gets sorted as it sounds a poor job so far.
Managed to get a response form the installer. He said he'll get the chimney swept and is looking for someone to do it ASAP. He'll then follow up by installing the register plate in the new year.
This is the thing that didn't make sense, he seemed like a genuine guy, came with really good reviews etc. something was just amiss with this job.
So once I got hold of him there was no quibbles in saying he'll sort it. I'll let you know how that pans out though..
Why the liner?? Did he smoke test the flue beforehand or just (£erching) fit a liner straight away?
I had a long standing company do a sweep & smoke test with the flue sealed at the top of Victorian terrace/cottage, register plate and signed off for £300. Most installers I spoke to wanted to fit a liner straightaway.
Don't know. I thought for a stove in an existing fireplace the easiest thing to do would be install a liner/steel flexi pipe inside and connect up.
Didn't now there was the option to not use one.
Didn’t now there was the option to not use one.
If your chimney is in good condition then you don't have to use one.
I have 2 stoves in my house, one has a liner the other doesn't. The one with the liner draws a lot better but it is a much more expensive stove than the one without.
Just from our experience there can be a residual risk of soot and coal tar seeping back out of the bricks, even if it was swept in the first place. What happened to us was that the coal tar bubbled back out of the bricks and it is then an accident waiting to happen. If the tar gets hot enough it can ignite and can burn without much oxygen. In the end we had a small fire outside of the liner (which was still fine when we got it out). Reinstalled the fire and liner after the fire and the chimney was swept again and there was very little in there after the fire swept it clean.
We used to get the smoke and smelly tar before, but since the fire there have been no issues at all.
It's not a legal requirement to fit a liner, but it is the correct job. You can pressure test a chimney fit a stove then the chimney fails not long after subjecting occupants to the possibility of co gas.
My installer was against fitting a liner and even when I queried he still said he didn't think it was needed as long as the chimney tested OK. He said he had stopped using the tradesmen that were doing chimney sweep and smoke test/pots etc as they were pricing up all his customer installs for liners, although I do keep in mind that he was a young business and probably trying to keep total costs down to win work. I'm in a bungalow too so a liner would not have been as costly as a house both for access and length of liner.
Anyway, it went in without one and all is fine, I had considered fitting one at a later date but I don't have any reason to at present.
The draw on a chimney/flue is partly related to it's length - so actually a bungalow might be more in need of a liner than a two storey house with a taller chimney.
To be fair it goes out the ridge of the roof so is a similar height to one that comes out above the eaves, shorter than one that runs up a two story gable to the ridge though.
He said he had stopped using the tradesmen that were doing chimney sweep and smoke test/pots etc as they were pricing up all his customer installs for liners, although I do keep in mind that he was a young business and probably trying to keep total costs down to win work.
Tremendous 🙂
Merry Christmas!
No stove for these lucky folks this festive season. #
Still, the landlord saved a few bob getting it installed...
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Merry Christmas!
No stove for these lucky folks this festive season. #
Still, the landlord saved a few bob getting it installed...
Try again...
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any background or do we just fill in the blanks our selves ?
I'm guessing that's where the stove is supposed to be - better for Santa though.
Aren't 90 deg bends very much frowned upon as they slow the gas flow?
any background or do we just fill in the blanks our selves ?
Probably something like -
Landlord: Ahoy, I'd like one of these stoves to make my property more desirable.
Installer 1: No problem. It's a Victorian farm cottage so I'll smoketest it and if it needs a liner I can fit a stove for £1800 + the cost of the stove.
Landlord: Wow, that's a lot of money. I don't want to spend too much, it's a rental you see.
Installer 2: No problem. It's a Victorian farm cottage so a smoketest is pointless. In my experience, it will need a liner I can fit a stove for £1650 + the cost of the stove.
Landlord: Wow, that's a lot of money. I don't want to spend too much, it's a rental you see.
Installer 3 : I can see something that looks like a clay liner up there so it's all good. I can ram a liner adaptor up there, it won't fit quite right but it will mostly work. I can fit your stove for £450 + the cost of the stove.
Landlord: Excellent. I don't want to spend too much, it's a rental you see.
Later.....
Sweep: This is a shambles. Don't use it it's unsafe.
Tenant: I'm sad about that.
Landlord: How much to fix this shambles? I don't want to spend too much, it's a rental you see.
Installer 3: *engaged tone*
Installer 4: One MILLION pounds.
Liner adapters are a bad move according to my installer.
Which was annoying at the time as I was short on money, but I still paid to get the liner fitted as I trusted his advice.
Ah so there's no back story just guesses ?
Aye.