Mefty - the R&A is a multi functional organisation - a golf club; the Championship Ctte; and the administration of the game. Your argument may apply to the latter two but not IMO to the first
Good points Vicky, each to their own...
The reality is that you have a super majority to protect from fundamental change with which a significant minority disagree - a very sensible system.
The reality is that at a time when we can vote to break apart our country, or remove ourselves from the EU on a straight majority vote, having such a sense of self importance that you think a super majority vote is appropriate for this, makes you look out of touch with little interest in actually making the change in the first place.
The only good thing about these threads are all the [s]neanderthals stuck in the 70's [ possibly 1870's].[/s] handwringers self out themself
Ad hominem
Straw man
In
Before
The
Lock
Still a result eh, golf loses the best Open venue. Progress
As I understand it, the Open is going to be held at Troon this year. If the R&A are now so forward thinking why have they allowed this to continue when Troon still remains men only? Changing now might be a pain but the R&A have had a couple of years to sort this.
Troon are in consultation on it at the moment. I suspect if they voted to continue excluding women, the R&A would boot them out too.
so you want to impose an even heavier penalty on a private club making its own decisions. Wow, that some ethical standard
It all depends on whether their "ethics" are sexist and or discriminatory though doesn't it. Where they exist to oppress folk then no they are not ok. What part of this are you struggling with?
What if they made it white only - would you support it? Essentially there will be come ethics that you would not support so its just about whether its ok to discriminate against women rather than whether its ok for clubs to make their own rules. You know this though and are just obfuscating.
I get it that some members on here are comfortable with discriminating against folk. Its just a shame they have not seen that this is no longer acceptable.
I don't get the desire to be segregated. Every now and then I get asked if I want to go and join a ladies' cycling club or a ladies' MTB skills course, or a ladies' only MTB ride. I'm perfectly happy with the mixed cycling club I'm in thanks, I have lots of good friends there, and I've been on a skills course where I was the only woman and it was fine. No one was posturing or being macho, and no one was applying lipstick mid-ride either
This is pretty much what I was getting at.
There is a lady who joins our regular night. So far, I have managed to not molest her or expose myself. She cycles at roughly the same pace as the rest of us and is good company. I see no issue with it and nor does she or she would have left.
Imagine if BPW did a men only weekend? It certainly wouldn't get the same reaction as a ladies only weekend.
This is getting away from the golf course a bit but I guess what I am trying to say (badly) is - what is happening in a lot of situations is not equality but positive discrimination. A certain amount of positive discrimination is fine as is puts some balance back where there was negative discrimination but there will be a point where this has been done.
I have been self outed for a long time and am not embarrassed about embracing equality for all and attacking discrimination everywhere.
If you want to defend sexism then that is your choice - if this is "banter between mates" as you think all threads should be read then I think you are failing....badly as it just reads as somewhere between sexist and trolling 🙁
At least I mean what i say on here and dont do it for effect/reaction - not necessarily a good point and I am sure you can use that against me 😉
Troon are in consultation on it at the moment. I suspect if they voted to continue excluding women, the R&A would boot them out too.
That and women are allowed to be members but have their own club but on the same course. 😕
Cycling is a "male sport" and females are underrepresented in it
If we do "ladies only" to redress this balance and encourage them into the sport then that is a good thing IMHO.
If PBW was a male only club and women only allowed as our guests - would you think that would help our sport be more equal or would it hinder it?
Unfortunately we are still at a point where we need to do "positive discrimination" to get to the point where we all ride in mixed gender groups.
Its not a good sign and not something we should be proud of but it is a, probably sadly necessary, stepping stone to where we should end up.
teamhurtmore - Member
Still a result eh, golf loses the best Open venue. Progres
You really think Muirfield is the best Open venue really?
The Open Championship is one of the best and most prestigious competitions in the world. A highly successful business that many try to copy and aspire to. With the exceptions of St Andrews and Carnoustie, it is hosted at private clubs with Muirfield being the best course and challenge. So far, so good. But horror of horrors among all this success, the administrators were and two of the courses (R St Georges has succumbed) happen to have been single sex. RING THE ALARMS, WHIP UP THE FROTH, it's an outrage!!!
Jambas - to add some syrup to the lattes, if you went to Royal St George's (until recently) a lady friend could play but officially didn't exist. So they did not pay a green fee (how could they) and had to play of the men's tees 😉
teamhurtmore - Member
"Still a result eh, golf loses the best Open venue. Progress "
And in so doing distances itself from a club which endorses discrimination against 50% of the human race. Yep small steps but progress indeed
Rusty. Best course yes, venue possibly. I am (of course) biased to the Auld Grey Toon. Indeed driving there now!!!
Shocking Gordi isn't it. We better tackle single sex schools next. Dreadful idea and so-outdated
The reality is that at a time when we can vote to break apart our country, or remove ourselves from the EU on a straight majority vote, having such a sense of self importance that you think a super majority vote is appropriate for this, makes you look out of touch with little interest in actually making the change in the first place.
The difference is that most don't choose their nationality, whereas you do choose to join a golf club. A super majority is a conservative system, it stops change being made unless there has been a very wide spread and long term change in view - patience is afterall a virtue.
What is club worried about that women might do?
Why do they need to be worried? It may just be a preference - they are allowed you know.
Mefty - the R&A is a multi functional organisation - a golf club; the Championship Ctte; and the administration of the game. Your argument may apply to the latter two but not IMO to the first
I understand that, but it is not clear to me who owns the companies that run the admin and commercial sides. Is it the club? I see the position as analogous to the MCC. I don't think it was acceptable for them to maintain their position in the game, which is largely honorific now, if they remained single sex.
Glad you agree THM,Careful with that latte though you might get froth on yer nose
Still enjoying woman's hour (no really) on the car radio now!!!!
There is a men's hour as well on 5 Live.
The difference is that most don't choose their nationality,
Most don't choose their sex.
Don't worry Gordi - avoid froth, it's a filter with hot milk. Minority choice again as modern times require a double soya, vanilla, skinny latte with two shots etc 😉
Frankly mefty, the success of the Open Championship has nothing IMO to do with the issue under debate. But I've met the guy who runs sponsorship at HSBC and so understand how/why this is happening.
Apart from (temporarily) losing Muirfield the same people will continue to run the Open brilliantly despite the side show
Mefty, I doubt the members of the Championship Ctte view their role as honourific
Cycling is a "male sport" and females are underrepresented in it
If we do "ladies only" to redress this balance and encourage them into the sport then that is a good thing IMHO.If PBW was a male only club and women only allowed as our guests - would you think that would help our sport be more equal or would it hinder it?
Unfortunately we are still at a point where we need to do "positive discrimination" to get to the point where we all ride in mixed gender groups.
Its not a good sign and not something we should be proud of but it is a, probably sadly necessary, stepping stone to where we should end up.
I get that there are more men than women who cycle and I have no issue with encouraging more women to join in, but (as far as I know) there has never been a rule that bans women from BPW. Is it a possibility that a lot of ladies just don't like uplift days? Will legislation and banning men on certain days change that fact. IMO, it wont.
The local zumba class in 99% women, should we ban women from attending for a few weeks to make it more equal or is there a chance that a lot of men are just not interested in zumba?
The local zumba class in 99% women, should we ban women from attending for a few weeks to make it more equal or is there a chance that a lot of men are just not interested in zumba?
Maybe it's just because no straight man can attend a zumba (or yoga) class without everyone in the room automatically assuming they're some kind of lecherous, pervy, sex pest?
I think you missed my point - whether you like it or not the R&A, the private club, is perceived to have a central role in the running of sport - this, in my view puts an additional burden on them to reflect society, subject to elitism based on golf ability - the MCC has the same burden in my view.
Mefty, I doubt the members of the Championship Ctte view their role as honourific
You misread, I was describing the MCC's position as honourific.
I think when it gets down to it... if you can't see the differences between a group (be it gender, religion, whatever) who are dominant in an activity working together to discourage those in smaller groups from taking part, and a group who're a minority in an activity working together to encourage more people to take part, you're broken.
I understand the point. It's not perceived, it does play a central role as I indicated above both in terms of the game itself (along with USPGA) and the Open. It's fulfills these roles brilliantly and irrespective of the gender issue.
Still if it makes people feel better.....makes FA difference to the Championship itself
FWIW even back in the prehistoric 80s I lived next to a lady who worked at the R&A (yes, inside the building 😉 ) so the running of the game has not been gender exclusive
Agrees with Pigface 🙂
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Still if it makes people feel better.....makes FA difference to the Championship itself
There is more to the position than running the tournaments etc, since taking female members, the MCC has become one of the biggest proponents of the women's game - although I do recognise there is probably a greater need for this in cricket than golf.
Worth remembering that since 2004 The R&A and the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews have been separate entities.
Worth remembering that since 2004 The R&A and the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews have been separate entities.
But what I can't work out is how separate? Who owns the R&A, where do the profits go etc. The MCC was theoretically separate from the ICC and TCCB when they were first set up, but in practice still ran them for many years after.
It all depends on whether their "ethics" are sexist and or discriminatory though doesn't it. Where they exist to oppress folk then no they are not ok.
+1
Anyhow golf should be banned in Scotland like in 1453 and replaced with archery as was supposed to happen back then.
Look at the flogging we got at Flodden.
The English archers gave us hell and weren't at all concerned at the golf balls being slung their way.
If only we'd followed King James IV orders and practised our archery.... 🙂
My old man's club after much umming and ahhhing decided to let women in, but the were not allowed in the spikes bar or on the terrace.
After a few years members relented and allowed women in the terrace. One day two gents were in the terrace turning the air blue with tales of their bad round. The two women in the terrace overheard them and complained about the bad language.
The club's action was to simply ban women from the terrace. 😀
The person in the cart seems to be giving the crosser the finger. Hope for golf yet.
slight deviation but there are obvious golfers here so:
Just back from a weekend in St Andrews (v nice welcome ducks 😉 )
Played the Old Course on Saturday - sublime as always and v lucky that weather forecast was wrong. Perfect late afternoon/early evening golf with shadows across the links.
[b]Then played the Castle on Sunday - awesome course. OK its a long walk, but bloody brilliant.[/b] Awesome views and a different challenge v the other St Andrews courses. Some moan about the greens - just learn to put, they are great challenges. Definitely recommend playing this course - expensive (yes expensive) but still half the price of Kingsbarns up the coast (and as good IMO - although played well at C and badly at K 😉 )
There appears to be more to this now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/36640085
Club going for a new ballot on the admission of female members.
And with that it is set to be back on the open rota.
