[Closed] Muirfield golf course

I like the balance; they can choose not to be part of the modern world and in return, the modern world decides not to visit.

It's not the same as ladies only events- the Open would never visit a female only club either, for one thing, and for another there's no such thing, which kind of demonstrates why it's an issue.

"Knobs" I think sums it up for me.

I agree with Northwind, different to a club that has a role in the management of the game such as the R&A, MCC etc.

What about the Ladies only clubs ? Just heard an interesting interview with a senior Ladies Golf administrator and she did say there are ladies only clubs, not as grand as Muirfiled for sure but they do exist (@Northwind)

Muirfield is a place with firm views, famously Tom Watson after winning the Open there went back with Jack Nicklaus to play a round and where told, sorry you're not members !

It's their choice, they where too they would lose the right to hold the Open Championship but I suspect many members find that a huge inconvenience anyway

jambalaya - Member

she did say there are ladies only clubs, not as grand as Muirfiled for sure but they do exist (@Northwind)

Not to open standard there aren't.

Its there club, and they can do what they want behind closed doors ,and on the lawns.

Wirral ladies golf club up the road from me,

Not to open standard there aren't.

On the plus side it keeps Sturgeon from becoming a member.

Good for the Honourable Conpany to resist the pressure (largely from HSBC as sponsors)

Place for men and women only clubs in all aspects of life - St Andrews had the R&A (sadly now bowed to pressure), the St Rule (Ladies) and two mixed clubs. Everyone is happy.

The Open has lost the best course in Britain - for PC bullshit.

The St Rule Club is a ladies club which was established at the end of 1896. The original aims were social, to share newspapers and periodicals, to have tea and light refreshments and to have shelter near the links. Its formation was encouraged by Captain Boothby of The Royal and Ancient Golf Club and its 186 founder members (including The Captain’s wife Ella Beatrice Boothby) leased, as a temporary clubhouse, 4 Gibson Place for the year 1897.

The move to the current premises at 12 The Links in 1898 coincided with the creation of a golf section within The Club.

Situated next to the 18th green of the Old Course, The Club has a magnificent panoramic view across the world famous St Andrews Links and the West Sands towards the Angus hills.

Today, in addition to golf, activities organised in The St Rule Club, include bridge, putting, arts and crafts, a book club, coffee morning talks and a programme of winter lectures. The Club thrives with a membership of 500 ladies, 288 of whom are golfers.

A very close bond exists between the two august governing bodies of golf, The Ladies Golf Union who rented the two upper floors of the building for many years from 1977 and The Royal and Ancient Golf Club who has never faltered in its support of The St Rule Club.

One (St) Rule for women and one for men

Some say they are stuck in the dark ages,

some say it is no different to the ladies only gyms/classes/uplift days etc.

It's their choice

I say build a tramline through it

I for one don't think it's 'PC bull' for a professional sports organisation to discourage institutional misogyny.

Stevious +1

[i]I say build a tramline through it[/i]
Oh God no! It cost £750 million to build a 6 mile stretch in town. How much would it cost to go all the way to Gullane? The [s]country[/s] planet couldn't afford it.

Who is the professional sports organisation?

Wouldn't that be these folk Mefty
http://www.randa.org/TheRandA/AboutTheRandA/About-Us

@imnotverygood No need to build all that just a short stretch down the 18th fairway across the green and through the clubhouse should get the message through

Members had a free choice, their decision has had a fair consequence.

The club captain on the telly looks like he wished the vote had gone the other way!

It's not the same as ladies only events- the Open would never visit a female only club either, for one thing, and for another there's no such thing,

The Ladies Golf Club, Troon. It shares the same course as the men only Troon club. Don't see the problem.

http://www.tlgct.co.uk/home.aspx?i=no

I guess they can do what they like. I don't agree with it at all and I do wonder "why"? I mean it's 100k plus to just get a membership there anyway, I doubt they'd be overrun with "Sharon's and Tracey's" (apologies to all Sharon's and Tracey's btw but you get my point). Seems a very strange one to me. I wonder what the average age of membership is and I wonder what their wives think of their vote (assuming they are/are still married).

I am surprised that sexism appears to be ok but it wouldn't be ok to insist all members be white (I bloody hope not anyway).

What if they banned Jews?

A 33-strong group of 'no' campaigners among the Muirfield members had cited concerns about slow play and making women "feel uncomfortable" among the "risks" of admitting female members.

I'm trying to work out the back to front thinking which reads as "We're not going to let women in because we make them feel uncomfortable."

Surely they're capable of behaving in such a way that women don't feel uncomfortable?

Do women golfers play slower than men?

I'm bewildered and confused.

Don't think you can compare women only gym classes to a single sex club; they're more comparable to a women's only day/ morning on a golf course.

If golf wishes to have men and women only clubs then that is fine, but I do not think in this day and age they should be allowed the prestige of hosting The Open. I disagree with the comparison with gym classes and uplift days. In a sporting environment I imagine many women who may not partake in these activities feel more comfortable in a women only environment.

I can imagine the jurassic discussions at Muirfield regarding not allowing women in.

as Northwind really. They have a right to choose how they organise themselves as do the people that organise the Open.

Do women golfers play slower than men?

Well since women can't drive and they're often preoccupied with the iron, it's not surprising really.

Do women golfers play slower than men?

Do bears..... 😉

Lots of myopic angst/hypocrisy over single sex golf clubs. Only bad in 50% of cases. No guessing which way.

Hang in there Honourable Company and Royal Troon.

Nick, the R&A merely bent over to HSBC pressure

TBH, the lack of hypocrisy is refreshing.

I used to work for a company for inclusiveness supported the formation of such fora as:

Company X women's network

Company X LG&TD network

Both by their definition were non-exclusive and discriminatory.

Ban golf, its the only way.

Do women golfers play slower than men?

Played golf for years and by far the slowest folks on the course were the old duffers (blokes) who thought they owned the place and refused to let anyone through regardless of whether they made them wait on every tee. Never saw the women acting like that..

Good news is give it 10 years and all the old farts will probably be dead, so perhaps better off holding a revote until then.

That said, why would anyone want to join a club full of such pompus old asshats anyhow...

I don't understand why men and women feel the need to segregate anyway

Their members have voted so democracy prevails accept that.

Club rules innit!

Well since women can't drive and they're often preoccupied with the iron, it's not surprising really.

making women "feel uncomfortable"

Lots of myopic angst/hypocrisy over single sex golf clubs.

.

Don't really understand why Muirfield get criticised for this.

Women's Rural Institute as an example. Are other sexes permitted to join?

Potentially the issue with Muirfield is that there may be a perception that the members are rich old codgers and this perception shapes judgement. There are plenty of other non inclusive groups, so what is the issue?

Muirfield lose the ability to host The Open, I'm sure there are more important news items than this.

People are just making a fuss out of nothing because it is a golf club which is considered a club for the rich. Just plain jealousy me think. No rational whatsoever.

Unless the members are these two blokes ...

The celebrity cool dude that drops mic and the "billion" dollar man (the one in pink).

[img] [/img]

Think it's more the unequal use of a resource that's the problem. Women can only use Muirfield as a guest. At Troon? There's a male club and a female club on the same course who presumably manage the course equally. The women's institute doesn't stop men using the village hall. Think there may well be men in the WI now anyway.

They're not the only ones to do it, they just lost the chance to host the Open.

I believe Augusta only allowed women members in 2012 and have constantly been accused of racism.

These "high brow" golf clubs attract a certain Jag driving type who are probably not known for their feminism and are just happy that there are no women around forcing their need for sexual harassment on the poor old men.

chubstr - Member
They're not the only ones to do it, they just lost the chance to host the Open.

If they don't need the money then there is no lost to hosting unwanted Open if they can sustain themselves financially. Most golf clubs have no problem sustaining themselves financially.

Quite chubstr...
I'm just playing junkyard professionally offended bshit bingo at the moment, he's not accused them of being racist xenophobic bigots yet though, here's hoping....

I cannot do that until you join them.

If I wanted to see someone who is professionally offended I would just discuss how wonderful multiculturalism has been for the UK with you 8)

bloodynora - Member

Quite chubstr...
I'm just playing junkyard professionally offended bshit bingo at the moment, he's not accused them of being racist xenophobic bigots yet though, here's hoping....

😆 Let's see how creative he can be this time.

Junkyard - lazarus

I cannot do that until you join

If I wanted to see someone who is professionally offended I would just discuss how wonderful multiculturalism has been for the UK with you

Multiculturalism !? 😆 ... from a person who claimed to be "I am not English ..." 😆

These "high brow" golf clubs attract a certain Jag driving type who are probably not known for their feminism and are just happy that there are no women around forcing their need for sexual harassment on the poor old men

I worked at the R&A* as a student and am a guest every year in a match. IME, the members are anything BUT Jag driving types. Charming, intelligent, very generous and great company. I would rather share their company than many mixed clubs elsewhere, where the Jags will be on much greater show.

*only know five members of the Honourable Company. All very sound although one does drive a Jag XKR 😉

trouble is if you admit women then you have to maintain two sets of tees 🙁

In fairness 64% did vote to admit women... only 3% short of the magic 2/3 majority required... 🙂

The Ladies Golf Club, Troon. It shares the same course as the men only Troon club. Don't see the problem.

Nope. They play Troon Portland, not the same course.

But play the Old for free any day of the week, if I am not mistaken.

Bet they love that relationship.

Aren't we missing the main point.. That gold is s**t

I didn't know that thm, quite surprising. i come through Royal Troon and old prestwick on my commute home, and they are the quietest courses you will ever see, it's rare to see more than 30 folks playing on each course.

I'd imagine that some members of muirfield wont be bothered about losing the open, as it has a big knock on effect of the course being shut for weeks in the summer, and the spell leading up to and after the championship - the course will be hard as hell!. Mega tight fairways and high rough.

Muirfield the club is well within its rights to refuse women membership. The R&A is well within its rights to exclude the course from hosting The Open. No problem there, but I know which party comes out of it looking like a bunch of dinosaurs.

I remember a story about a golf club where the women members complained about the language they could hear coming from the men only terrace as they walked off the 18th green towards their locker room. The club looked into the issue and............

Banned women from walking in front of the clubhouse when leaving the 18th and made them walk all the way around.

Sometimes it just ain't worth the hassle.

Must've been a pretty low brow golf club that Danny, any private golf course round here - and on the Ayrshire coast there are a few! - definitely do not allow swearing.

Yeah, I think it was an old course with 'new money' members. Somewhere in midlands or Home Counties if memory serves.

I wouldn't be much good at any of your nice clubs, then. Golf is the single most frustrating bloody game ever invented by man. At least when I played cricket and got skittled by a straight one I could always claim it darted in off the seam. In golf the ball is stationary, as is the hole. It really should be easy.......

My take on it all, Muirfield and the HCoEG can do what they like with their club. Do they have to let Women in nope should they be forced to no i don't believe they should.

I think the R&A are doing the right thing, I don't think the Open championship should associate its's self with Muirfield or any club that overtly restricts is membership based on sex.

Do it think the members will give two hoots about not hosting the Open any more - nope more playing days for them.

Ultimately does the R&A loose out with the loss of Muirfield from the line up, i don't think so. My opinion of the course is that while it is beautifully maintained it has not kept pace with modern day golf, the course is short by modern standards, the only thing that makes it difficult is the rough which is monstrous and that it is narrow. When the wind blows this makes it a fantastically difficult challenge but when calm scores in the low 60's are shot.

Actually now I've read the thread, you guys are right. It's important that we allow these poor guys to preserve their imperilled culture.

jambalaya - Member

No problem if they did so for example by only allowing Muslim or Christian members.

How about if they did it by only allowing atheists, agnostics, and every other religion apart from judaism?

I think gay men should be allowed to have places where they can mingle undisturbed by women.

But seriously, in this day and age?

The simple way to keep everyone happy is to have legislation that allows them to have their no women policy, but prevents them from adding new members. With a grandfather clause like that, they'll wither on the vine.

I'm not sure where all the angst is coming from. There are lots of women-only sports clubs around. I'm sure they're not [i]all[/i] full of lesbians.

And The Open - when's the last time you saw a woman teeing off with the men?

I had to go to Muirfield to quote for air conditioning for the open (The yearEls won in a play off) , i'd have to say it is without a doubt the snobbiest establishment I've ever been to. Great decision by the R&A in my opinion , Golf should be for the masses both male and female.

Their members have voted so democracy prevails accept that.

I struggle to see how a vote where a majority 64% voted for lifting the ban, but it doesn't get lifted, is particularly democratic.

Because those are the democratic rules of the club, higher majorities for changing constitutions are pretty common, even in the politics, because they tend to be fundamental changes.

I don't have a problem with the decision, it is their club, their asset and they have the right run it as they see fit. The reason people get upset is because it occupies a special place in the game by hosting the Open - once that has gone, can't see the problem.

However, I do disagree with THM re R&A. Despite hiving off the rule making bit to a separate company, it still occupies a central role in the sport by association and you can't have that now. If the R&A wanted to remain single sex, it should have removed itself completely from the running of the game.

And The Open - when's the last time you saw a woman teeing off with the men?

I think I'm right in saying that The Open Championship is open to both male and female whereas the Ladies Open Championship is not open to men.

In a way i feel sorry for the 60+% members who were in favour of women joining who are now being called dinosaurs etc yet wanted the club to take the forward step...saying muirfield is a golf club is pushing it a bit, it's a lunch club with the (in)convenience of a golf course attached.

Because those are the democratic rules of the club, higher majorities for changing constitutions are pretty common, even in the politics, because they tend to be fundamental changes.

Albanach - Member

In a way i feel sorry for the 60+% members who were in favour of women joining who are now being called dinosaurs etc yet wanted the club to take the forward step.

Aye, me too. So many people saying "they voted against it" and ignoring the detail.

I understand how a super majority vote works but it seems very cynical. Especially at a time when the country has recently and will recently vote on pretty fundamental issues such as the independence of Scotland from the rest of the UK, or leaving the EU, on a straight majority vote. This bunch of old duffers requiring a super majority vote on a pretty straightforward subject makes them look out of touch with reality.

Thems are the rules. Lots of sports have such rules, the Premier league in Scotland for instance requires an 11-1 vote for constitutional change, the football league in England requires 65 of the 72 teams IIRC.

English premiership? well that just requires a couple of billion and they'll roll over and let you tickle their undercarriage...

Another factor in the vote is that at present, members wives are allowed to play (at certain times I'd imagine) for free. A lot of the miserable auld buggers would vote against so that they wouldn't have to pay for their wives too.

Thems are the rules.

I won't disagree.

edit - and golfers wear white belts, how can you trust a man in a white belt that isn't a BeeGee?

Interesting responses. Funny enough, they were talking about it on the radio on the drive home last night and people were giving both sides of the story.

I agree that there is no place for it in this day and age but I am also surprised that there can we woman only things for the same reason. If you think there is no such thing, look here for example -

https://www.google.com/#q=ladies+only+gyms

https://www.bikeparkwales.com/Wome n's-Weekend-2016-Sunday-10th-

It's just embarrassing really, it's like the modern world never happened. Glad they've had the Open removed, and pity they can't be hit with a bigger penalty.

Its a private club and its their decision, and as posted above the decsison was by a wafer thin margin.

@Northwind, you can't so that (everyone except) but thats not what I was saying and not what religious organisations do. If you have a Christian Club its reasonable that you have to be Christian to join. Muirfield is a gentlemans club, for men.

TMH do most clubs these days still have a ladies day once a week and can't pkay on the other days ?

I have been to a few ladies pro tournaments, great to watch and a very high standard but I have to say the "average" lady player versus the "average" male player is quite a different game and having the two sets on a course at the same time is not a positive in my view. I can see the Muirfield logic

@hooli women want to be seperated from men but it be there choice. I totally get why women would want a ladies only Alps trip / bike park day. Gym. Are we saying that should not be allowed ?

Its a private club and its their decision, and as posted above the decsison was by a wafer thin margin.

The only good thing about these threads are all the neanderthals stuck in the 70's [ possibly 1870's] self out themself.

Just because "thems the rules", doesn't mean the rules can't be out of touch with reality.

The reality is that you have a super majority to protect from fundamental change with which a significant minority disagree - a very sensible system.

It's just embarrassing really, it's like the modern world never happened. Glad they've had the Open removed, and pity they can't be hit with a bigger penalty.

What is the problem with men wanting to socialise with only men, and women likewise, isn't the idea in modern life that there should be choice?

The 60% who voted to include women could vote with their feet and leave to join an alternative club that has a 21st century attitude.

[img] [/img]

I totally get why women would want a ladies only Alps trip / bike park day. Gym. Are we saying that should not be allowed ?

Me too when I see comments like this.

I have to say the "average" lady player versus the "average" male player is quite a different game and having the two sets on a course at the same time is not a positive in my view. I can see the Muirfield logic

Well said Drac

The reality is that you have a super majority to protect from fundamental change with which a significant minority disagree - a very sensible system.

I do agree we should want more for "constitutional change" but 2/3 is setting it a little high considering we get a govt on 1/3 of those who actually vote or 25% ish of those who can

Its hard to argue we should respect the minority view imagine they have had say 20 votes against but never reaching that threshold.

It's just humiliating for the "sport" of golf IMO, putting another nail in its own coffin.

Makes the recent BC outrage looks like a fuss over nothing (not that I'm saying it was).

What is the problem with men wanting to socialise with only men, and women likewise, isn't the idea in modern life that there should be choice?

Nothing, but you are adults and can do it in the same room without there being issues. You regularly see groups of solely men or women out socializing in pubs, cafe, restaurants etc.

What is club worried about that women might do? Is it that women will start talking about knitting or that the old boys they won't be able to look at porn on the big screen?

I don't get the desire to be segregated. Every now and then I get asked if I want to go and join a ladies' cycling club or a ladies' MTB skills course, or a ladies' only MTB ride. I'm perfectly happy with the mixed cycling club I'm in thanks, I have lots of good friends there, and I've been on a skills course where I was the only woman and it was fine. No one was posturing or being macho, and no one was applying lipstick mid-ride either 😀

Dragon - so you want to impose an even heavier penalty on a private club making its own decisions. Wow, that some ethical standard

Jambas - to the best of my knowledge, and the irritation of many ladies, no that has gone. To pander to the PC masses, ladies have lost their exclusive days and had their fees doubles or at least increased significantly - but at least they have equal rights and their lives have been enriched

Mefty - there is no problem. It makes a lot is sense hence why single sex clubs have existed for a long time

Still enjoying woman's hour (no really) on the car radio now!!!!

As I understand it, the Open is going to be held at Troon this year. If the R&A are now so forward thinking why have they allowed this to continue when Troon still remains men only? Changing now might be a pain but the R&A have had a couple of years to sort this.

Anyone familiar with 'traditional' type golf clubs would know that women are generally discriminated against (as are juniors) even if members. However, there does seem to be a certain degree of acceptance from (older) women golfers that "this is how it is". Maybe its a generational thing.