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yes lower case for a lower case specimen.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13918723 ]the bbc[/url] say that he'd be happy for parents to go into schools to help keep them open during the strike.
the strike brings mixed emotions for me as a teacher but also as a child of the original teachers strike way back when and i won't be drawn on it. BUT if he's happy for parents to go in to schools is he saying he is happy for possibly non qualified people with no CRB (criminal record bureau) check to be left with our kids.
sorry but as a parent that doesn't make any sense to me, as a teacher it makes me annoyed. it's equivalent to saying he'd be happy for anyone to go in to work as a copper if the police went on strike!
discuss.......
Again?
CBA on the "discussion" but if it acts like a tosser and talks like a tosser, chances are ....
"is he saying he is happy for possibly non qualified people with no CRB (criminal record bureau) check to be left with our kids."
Given that the "qualified" people who we pay to take care of our kids would rather take the day off why shouldn't parents help out?
Well, I know this much.
It turns out that if you're married to a teacher, you shouldn't ask them if it's OK for your take-home pay to be cut in order to keep their retirement benefits the same.
Given that the "qualified" people who we pay to take care of our kids would rather take the day off why shouldn't parents help out?
They're not taking the day off, they're striking. These are two different things.
When striking, you are not paid. When taking a days leave, you are paid. The reason you're paid, by the way, is probably because of people in the past striking.
Parents helping out is a great idea, just not in school. If people talked to their kids' friends' parents, they could probably arrange childcare between them without anyone having to take time off work.
you shouldn't ask them if it's OK for your take-home pay to be cut in order to keep their retirement benefits the same.
after a long day answering stupid questions from people less informed than you when you get home you just want a break from it.
You are not the current agreement says that any shortfall will be met by teachers rather than taxpayers. I suspect she has told you this more than once.
Asked whether he was suggesting that parents should go in to take lessons on Thursday, he said: "Well, parents going in to help certainly."He said otherwise there would be "massive inconvenience" for working families - particularly single parents who would have to find childcare at short notice.
Yep going in to school to teach rather than working is bound to help me out Cheers for the advice.
Mr Gove said the Government would ''do everything possible to make sure schools stay open'' with arrangements which could see ''parents going in to help''.
That's a pretty stupid thing to say. There's no way I'm going in to help; it's hard to know where to start with all the problems with this. Public liability insurance would be a good start though, and go on from there.
''parents going in to help''.
Actually now I think about it, it sounds like a great idea. I'm going to go in on Thursday and teach those kids a thing or two. I've watched plenty of heart-warming films about off-beat teachers turning around kids from the 'hood with their quirky sense of humour and unusual approach to teaching. I think I'm ideally qualified.
Quick question: can I assume that if I'm (obviously wrongly) accused of assaulting a child then the NUT will handle my case and ensure that I don't spend months arguing about it in court? If I take them swimming, and a few of them drown, is there a lot of paperwork to fill out, or will Mr Gove sort that one out for me?
They're not taking the day off, they're striking. These are two different things.
They are withdrawing their labour for the day, which in my book is taking a day off. Whether they are paid or not is irrelevant.
The reason you're paid, by the way, is probably because of people in the past striking.
Eh?
Parents helping out is a great idea, just not in school. If people talked to their kids' friends' parents, they could probably arrange childcare between them without anyone having to take time off work.
Leave my kids with parents that aren't CRB checked 😯 How do I know if they have the correct level of Public Liability Insurance ❓
They are not taking the day off, they are exercising their right to strike, which will be a thing of the past if this Tory government has it's way.
The teachers are being threatened with a massive degradation of their benefits and I support them
Parents looking after kids? Without qualifications and certificates?
You'll be allowing people to conceive without the proper H&S documentation next.
Looking after other peoples kids.
its just utter nonsense from gove - no headmaster should let parents who have not been checked into the school to "help" in any capacity. A head who does would be in breach of their duty towards the children
Looking after other peoples kids.its just utter nonsense from gove - no headmaster should let parents who have not been checked into the school to "help" in any capacity. A head who does would be in breach of their duty towards the children
Not intended as any view on what has been suggested, but many primary schools actively encourage parents (and anyone else that's willing) with the time and inclination (and sometimes particular skills/interests/experience) to come in and help out in lessons on a regular basis. Such people will have been CRB checked.
Just to be clear... that's not to say they have the skills or experience necessary to supervise groups of children on their own, just that they may not be complete unknown quantities 😉
Not intended as any view on what has been suggested, but many primary schools actively encourage parents (and anyone else that's willing) with the time and inclination (and sometimes particular skills/interests/experience) to come in and help out in lessons on a regular basis. Such people will have been checked.
Away with you and your real world experiences, I would be grateful if you could, however, support this with facts otherwise I'll just have to put my fingers in my ears and go "la-la-la-la" to demonstrate that I'm ignoring you or until you get bored.
Could you also refrain from posting things that might be considered to be simple propoganda by a fool, irrespective of truth.
Away with you and your real world experiences, I would be grateful if you could, however, support this with facts otherwise I'll just have to put my fingers in my ears and go "la-la-la-la" to demonstrate that I'm ignoring you.
I've been CRB checked by a primary school. And would be absolutely hopeless in charge of a group of children. Even my own.
😉
This used to happen regularly. My mother used to help out at a local primary, no CRB checks, no teaching quals. She helped teach children who were falling behind with their reading.
How would a head 'be in breach of their duty towards the children'?
Adult histrionics are more detrimental to child development/welfare/education.
JacksonPollock - MemberThis used to happen regularly. My mother used to help out at a local primary, no CRB checks, no teaching quals. She helped teach children who were falling behind with their reading.
Used to being the operative word - nowadays you must be CRB checked I believe.
How would a head 'be in breach of their duty towards the children'?
By giving adults who have not been checked and appropriately trained contact with children in their care. The adults will not be insured without basic training and must be CRB checked to have unsupervised access to children
Probably a good idea if Mr Gove had a day off and the public went in and helped out, that goes for the other 600 or so of his colleagues
Teachers have every right to exercise their right to strike, must say I was a bit surprised they got two thirds final salary as a pension thought I was doing ok on fifty percent (which was frozen in 2009)
My missus is a science tech in a school and their pension is nowhere near as generous and already have to work until sixty five for it
Fair enough not wanting to give up your terms and conditions, not sure public opinion is with the teachers though
Sounds like a good opportunity to scrap CRB.
I do plenty of helping out in the local primary (Scotland). This has included taking groups of 6 or so on my own for bike maintenance classes and listening to kids read in the classroom. I've never been CRB checked, nor has it been suggested that I should have been. As long as there is someone who has the relevant quals / checks in the vicinity then there is no problem.
And the head of the school is a H&S / Data Protection / Rulez nazi.
Geoff - thats OK if you are supervised - however what Gove is suggesting is that the parents could be unsupervised as they would be no one to supervise them
They are not taking the day off, they are exercising their right to strike
They are exercising their right to withdraw their labour. They are not going to be working that day. They are taking the day off.
It will interesting to see how many you see on a picket line.
Surley a heads duty first and foremost is to ensure the effective education of the children...starting with keeping the establishment open while the teachers scrike, sorry, strike.
We also have some very high profile evidence that the CRB and vetting systems do not work.
TJ, you are right. The issue is around the definition of 'unsupervised'. There will be some teachers and appropriately qualified / checked individuals (classroom assistants) who will be in the mix to allow the checking of the [i]supervised[/i] box - I would imagine.
The head has a resposibility to keep the kids safe.
How you think allowing untrained adults unsupervised into schools
is to ensure the effective education of the children
its only 'cos Gove is really stupid he even suggested this - no thought into it at all.
Geoff - thats OK if you are supervised - however what Gove is suggesting is that the parents could be unsupervised as they would be no one to supervise them
In the best traditions of STW, could you provide a linky to where he said this?
Gove is suggesting or Gove is saying?
<awaits radio silence from TJ towers>
The head has a resposibility to keep the kids safe.How you think allowing untrained adults unsupervised into schools
is to ensure the effective education of the children
its only 'cos Gove is really stupid he even suggested this - no thought into it at all.
I doubt that'll be the reaction of your average voter. An obvious and simple solution without the usual nanny-state hysteria.
Tijuana Taxi - Brilliant! I can I have the treasury while you sort education?
don simon - MemberIn the best traditions of STW, could you provide a linky to where he said this?
Gove is suggesting or Gove is saying?
Seems to be [i]logic. [/i]He wants the parents to go in because the teachers aren't there, therefore, the teachers won't be supervising them.
indeed Northwind. Simple isn't it.
I do understand TJ, I was being deliberately obtuse to make the wider point about CRB/certs checks etc. being ineffective.
http://www.****/news/article-2008313/Michael-Gove-calls-Mums-Army-strike-breakers-schools-open.html
[i]If they have been vetted by the Criminal Records Bureau, parents could take over classes.[/i]
So CRB checked - yes, adequately trained - who knows.
I think (aside from all the risks- legal etc) that we should let parents go in and do it for a few days. Let's see how they feel about fronting up to kids day in day out. Might change perception of the profession.
In an unprecedented step in relations between the Government and trade unions, the Secretary of State for Education said that classrooms threatened with closure could remain open if head teachers used the "wider school community" – including pupils' parents – to teach lessons.Some head teachers have written to parents asking them to consider, if they have been vetted by the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB), volunteering to ensure lessons go ahead, Whitehall sources claimed yesterday.
From the Independant.
Firstly, there will be headteachers who could act in a supervisory role, plus the non-striking teachers.
Secondly, the request is for CRB vetted parents.
Thirdly, it's a suggestion and not an order or instruction.
Hardly the doom and gloom you're portraying TJ. Or is this just more propoganda for the fools to soak up, or is the narrow minded one the fool?
I think (aside from all the risks- legal etc) that we should let parents go in and do it for a few days. Let's see how they feel about fronting up to kids day in day out. Might change perception of the profession.
Oh FFS. There is no doubt that being a teacher is a difficult and demanding job. I certainly couldn't do it, but then I didn't train to do it, and I don't receive the remuneration and benefits that they do.
We are living longer and we need to make public sector savings. Its not difficult to see where the cuts may be best targeted.
DS - easy with the narrow minded fool comments. TJ maybe a lot of things, but he is neither narrow minded or a fool.
3 things ,
gove comes over as more ranting than me,it wont work, whos going to keep an eye on the dodgy shifty ,thieving , unemployed parents
2, SO even if the parents do have CRB checks whats to say theyre not going to abuse the kids in some way, seems to be a few teachers get caught for it.
3, if the bin and recycling drivers go on strike, can i be a lgv driver for the day
DS - easy with the narrow minded fool comments. TJ maybe a lot of things, but he is neither narrow minded or a fool.
Maybe not, but it is a line he's happy to trot out for anyone who has a view slightly out of line than his, so I thought I'd get it in first. 😉
3, if the bin and recycling drivers go on strike, can i be a lgv driver for the day
Why not I say?! 😆
It's the 'can't do' attitude of certain sectors of society that annoys me, backed up by ridiculous levels of bureaucracy, when any solution (no matter how implausable) is talked about.
he'd be happy for parents to go into schools to help keep them open during the strike.
I very much doubt Gove said that because he thought it was a sensible suggestion to the issues concerning the teacher's dispute, or that he expects his daft suggestion to be implemented.
Much more likely he used the suggestion as a propaganda tool designed to ram home the point that the teacher's one day strike will have catastrophic consequences for the nation, and cause irreparable damage to our children's eduction.
To suggest the need for such drastic emergency plans to deal with the horrendous situation caused by a one day strike by teachers, further emphasises just how greedy teachers are, with their cushy jobs, huge wages, early retirement, and their total selfish disregard for children's education.
Not a bad move at all imo......well done Gove.
Oooooh, big society in action innit?
I am assuming Mr Gove is referring to the small number of parents who already have been CRB checked to help out in the school: you are supposed to have a crb for each new 'role'. I have an 'enhanced' one re-checked yearly and I work with some of the most vulnerable and messed with/up kids in the south west. But that doesn't mean I can just show it to the headteacher of my childrens' school and then volunteer there. And in the same way the headtecher can't just turn up and mind the children where I work either. Last time I looked a CRB check (even for someone who has five or six clear ones from other jobs/roles) cost about £70.
II wonder if all the fools who voted con would now vote con now, i blame a lack of education for them voting conservative, they obviously didnt read the history books labour provided about how the cons systematically destroy the state enterprises.
Are techers in English Schools really on a 2/3 final salary scheme? I thought it was 1/2 final salary.
II wonder if all the fools who voted con would now vote con now, i blame a lack of education for them voting conservative, they obviously didnt read the history books labour provided about how the cons systematically destroy the state enterprises.
😯
must say I was a bit surprised they got two thirds final salary as a pension thought I was doing ok on fifty percent
The average pension drawn is £10,000.
From www.teacherspensions.co.uk
"If you were a member of the TPS before 1 January 2007, your pension is 1/80th of the average salary for each year of pensionable service. Individual days count as 1/365th of a year." - This is most teachers.
To get a 2/3 final salary pension they'd need to work for 53 years - or until they were 75, assuming they entered the classroom at 22.
Is this Gove bloke the one that they call "two brains"?
Just shows how far numeracy standards have slipped when the people that run the country have gotten their numerators and denominators mixed up.
Two Brains is Willets
The average pension drawn is £10,000
Given teachers salary that is a surprisingly low figure, not sure what the average wage is, but if they only get 50% of final salary i'm sure they earn more than 20 grand a year
My final salary pension having paid 31 years was frozen in 2009 which pays 50% and expect to get about 15 grand a year even with the last nine years or so reckoned at career average
Apologies if I quoted the 2/3rds incorrectly, relied on info from the BBC which said
It is a final-salary scheme, based on a 1/60th accrual rate with a normal pension age (NPA) of 65, offering a pension of two-thirds of final salary.For those who joined before 1 January 2007, the NPA is 60 but the accrual rate is 1/80ths plus 3/80ths lump sum, offering a pension of half final salary.
The full entitlement is only there for people who work continuously. The majority of teachers are women, many of whom take career breaks to bring up kids. They retire with nothing like the full pension.
Seeing as there are a few teachers here maybe they can answer a question that has puzzled myself and friends for years
Why do they always congregate around one table in a pub no matter how many of them there are? Can always tell when teachers are in by the amount of tables that have no chairs around them and one great big group just about balancing their drinks on a solitary table
Why do they always congregate around one table in a pub no matter how many of them there are?
They are secretly planning dastardly ways of undermining the very fabric of our society.
safety in numbers innit, we're always wary of attack from 'angry hard-working parents'
firstly we form a corral around the drinks....also if we have all the chairs, they can't be used as weapons against us
(CBA punctuation, etc)
What BillMC said.
Also, believe it or not, some teachers have been in the Real World ™ before becoming teachers, so they don't spend from age 22 to retirement paying into their teacher's pension. In my department, of six of us only one went straight into teaching at age 22.
The full entitlement is only there for people who work continuously. The majority of teachers are women, many of whom take career breaks to bring up kids. They retire with nothing like the full pension
Can you buy extra years? not agitating just interested as we used to be able to before the final salary deal was stopped. I paid in to cover the days lost when we went on strike, never bought any extra years though
You can make additional voluntary contributions. A colleague did some sums and worked out he'd break even if he lived to 84 or something.
I should probably look into buying extra years, as I didn't start paying in until I was 25.
Future teachers will be stuffed. Student Loan repayments, plus extra pension contributions, plus stupid house prices, plus no jobs because they're full of old duffers who can't retire yet.
Is the teachers pension fund one of those that is fully funded , it has no defecit and does not appear to need a top up from the public purse? Unlike say the police and fire service ones.
Is the teachers pension fund one of those that is fully funded , it has no defecit and does not appear to need a top up from the public purse? Unlike say the police and fire service ones.
I believe so.
When it was renegotiated 4 years ago, a cap was placed on the government's contribution, so any future deficit would be covered by members. One of the reasons why we're a little annoyed...
Why do they always congregate around one table in a pub no matter how many of them there are?
Nurses do too. We are also plotting to undermine the fabric of society. HTH.
NUT chap on radio 4 this morning was suprisingly un-ranty. Particularly liked his response to the NUT's strike ballot respone/turnout being akin to the AV referendum, (but with 92% 'yes' vote).
No mention of CRB/liability implications (discussed earlier in this thread) from the spokesperson they wheeled out cos Mr Gove was too busy. In backing up the parents-comeing-in-to-help idea he did however describe the functions of school as twofold, 1) education and 2) childcare.
I bet that will go down well.
I thought the teachers renegotiated their pensions T&Cs about 4 years ago? What happened?
ransos - you are right. They did and one of the key things is this put a cap on the taxpayer contribution - any future deficit will be made up by the teachers own contributions.
What happened - the government want an enemy to fight so decided to use public services by attacking the pensions of the public servants to provoke a dispute.
Its nothing to do with finances, its everything to do with politics.
Same as the NHS pension fund which has also been reviewed. For many years the NHS pension fund has been in surplus with more being paid in than taken out. This is still the case now. This excess money has been used as revenue by the exchequer not saved or invested. In the future the NHS fund will tip into deficit. Then the government has to make up the shortfall. This is only fair as they have spent billions in surpluses.
Public sector pensions are affordable and sustainable in the main. cuts to them will not save the exchequer significant money as reductions in pensions simply mean more folk will end up on benefits as average pensions are low - just a few thousand a year. The scandal is that private sector do not have decent pensions for most workers and that is a shortfall that will have to be made up by the taxpayer in the form of benefits
[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/education/2010/09/gove-8220-parents-school ]Gove on strike[/url]
There he did something that I am sure no other leading Tory has done, and which helps explain his understanding and empathy with left-wing critics: he was on strike for as long as four months in the bitter confrontation between the National Union of Journalists and the Press and Journal, which derecognised the NUJ against the wishes of the journalists and then made scapegoats of the union leaders.
Repeated thread, you know, the one that got closed down a few days ago..
Lifer that link ios pschofansy of the highest order
header gives
He has immense charm
then telling us
What sets him apart," he says now, "is that he has the precious skill of making people who don't agree with him like him and respect him. He is persuasive in a personal sense. People who don't agree with him start agreeing with him a bit.
I gave up reading just after that TBH
Just to add to the intellectual debate...
[b]Mr Gove does have a very punchable face.[/b]
That is all, carry on.
I didn't post it because of the writer's impression of Gove but as a source of the striking story.
Watched the thing from the "Campaign For Real Education" on breakfast TV this am. Between her and Gove I suspect I'd need to recruit David Hay as an assistant..
I always thought strike was last resort after all other means of protest have been exhausted. Work to rule etc. Can they hand on heart say that there is no alternitive (yet) to strike?
That is all
I always thought strike was last resort after all other means of protest have been exhausted. Work to rule etc. Can they hand on heart say that there is no alternitive (yet) to strike?
I'm still conflicted as to whether the strike is the right thing to do, but it's certainly keeping the topic in the news more than if it was just the negotiations going on. The speed of the implementation of the change being introduced along with the government's seeming disinclination of negotiate on some points means that there's not a lot of point in waiting until after negotiations have ended.
Gove's every move seems to be driven by classic free market economic concepts - what barriers are there to a free market in school education? - well the fact that teachers pay and conditions is negotiated nationally is percieved by free marketeers as a "distortion" similarly that the fact that teachers have to be qualified creates an artificial "scarcity"
Think the tories are very happy to pick a fight with teachers
laughably whilst taking central control and removing the support (not control) of local authorities
[url] http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2011/01/government-bullies-schools-considering-academy-status/ [/url]
Future teachers will be stuffed. Student Loan repayments, plus extra pension contributions, plus stupid house prices, plus no jobs because they're full of old duffers who can't retire yet.
I'd say future [b]everyone[/b] will face this issue. It is beyond mere ideology, too - the issue is one of expectation. And the expectations have been too high for too long.
But, of course, with tories in power, public sector workers are going to get a kicking in this regard....
Berm Bandit - Member
Watched the thing from the "Campaign For Real Education" on breakfast TV this am. Between her and Gove I suspect I'd need to recruit David Hay as an assistant..
Best not spoil Hay's chances for the big fight, I’ll give you a hand if you want.
I would normally never strike a woman but in this case I am willing to make an exception!
She was/is a hideously annoying stuck up old bag.
Gove is my MP.
A very decent chap 🙂
it's equivalent to saying he'd be happy for anyone to go in to work as a copper if the police went on strike!
Well the public seem quite good at dealing with burglars so why not. I'm off on Thursday, I think I might tell the kids this evening that it's ok school will be open and I'll be teaching them. That should go down well.
allthepies - MemberGove is my MP.
A very decent chap
his plans for pe reform were inspired to cut a shedload of funding and use the olympics as a model to replace pe lessons twaaaaaaaaaaat of the highest order imho
Gove is my MP.A very decent chap
A case of one knob voting for another?
I always thought strike was last resort after all other means of protest have been exhausted. Work to rule etc. Can they hand on heart say that there is no alternitive (yet) to strike?
A one day strike now is the lesser evil to educational attainment. All exams done. Working to rule for a few weeks would have a much bigger effect. Although I agree the current strike may have been premature.